Would all cables sound alike under DBT test?...Probably not!

[Tony_Montana]

I wonder if anyone remembers "Jack's Secret Sauce" from Jack In The Box' early days in the late '50s. Perhaps some cable company acquired Jack's secret recipe and that's what they are really stuffing inside those mysterious black boxes.

Whatever is those boxes (and a passive one at that) will probably do more damage than not. Electrically, the best signal transfer is the one with least component in its way.

By the way, did anybody find out what was in the Jack's secret sauce

The "problemo" is that many like to go by the catch phrase "all cables [missing part] sound the same" but conveniently disregard the all important [missing part] that qualifies this, which is "of similar length, guage and construction".

Very true. I hope PCtower add that line next time he accuse AR memebers of not hearing difference between cables or components

They [cables] should be compared to an ideal shunt, as close to one as you can get, or put in a circuit which includes a duplicate shunt.

That might be harder than it sound, especially for run-the-mill consumers. How would you create a shunt?

Greenhill already demonstrated that some cables do sound different and it is not a mistery why.

So the line I have seen you use alot such as:"nobody in the world been able to demonstrated differences between cables" is not true any more. Wouldn't you say?

Ribbon cables have very high capacitance and very low inductance.

Not according to Audioholic's speaker cable face-off article. Gene mentioned that Ribbon cables had the lowest measured capacitance out of all the cables in this face off, at the expense of high inductance. Here is the link

http://www.audioholics.com/techtips/...eFaceoffp2.htm

So why spend large sums of money on what is basicly a passive crossover when one could purchase an equalizer for $50 on ebay and have an active crossover?

I raised that question a while back in CA, and everybody jump down my throat saying that EQ will add distortion. Little do they realize that passive cables will manipulate the signal more than active component such as EQ does. And the worst part is that if cables doesn't work out for you, you can not change its setting

[pctower]

Whatever is those boxes (and a passive one at that) will probably do more damage than not. Electrically, the best signal transfer is the one with least component in its way.

By the way, did anybody find out what was in the Jack's secret sauce

Very true. I hope PCtower add that line next time he accuse AR memebers of not hearing difference between cables or components

That might be harder than it sound, especially for run-the-mill consumers. How would you create a shunt?



So the line I have seen you use alot such as:"nobody in the world been able to demonstrated differences between cables" is not true any more. Wouldn't you say?



Not according to Audioholic's speaker cable face-off article. Gene mentioned that Ribbon cables had the lowest measured capacitance out of all the cables in this face off, at the expense of high inductance. Here is the link

http://www.audioholics.com/techtips/...eFaceoffp2.htm



I raised that question a while back in CA, and everybody jump down my throat saying that EQ will add distortion. Little do they realize that passive cables will manipulate the signal more than active component such as EQ does. And the worst part is that if cables doesn't work out for you, you can not change its setting

I hope PCtower add that line next time he accuse AR memebers of not hearing difference between cables or components

Just to keep the record straight, I'll bet if someone could go back through all the old archives of AR and AA for the past 2 years for purposes of seeing who used the phrase "of similar length, guage and construction" the most they would find that I've used it more than everyone else combined.

[Beckman]

And the worst part is that if cables doesn't work out for you, you can not change its setting

You could always go out and spend another $1000 on cables that produse that warm, detailed, open sound.

[mtrycraft]

So the line I have seen you use alot such as:"nobody in the world been able to demonstrated differences between cables" is not true any more. Wouldn't you say?

No, not at all, I would not sat that. The 24 ga speaker cable in that test is not considerd to be a product that qualifies as a speaker cable. Broken.
16ga or better are. Try that on.



Not according to Audioholic's speaker cable face-off article. Gene mentioned that Ribbon cables had the lowest measured capacitance out of all the cables in this face off, at the expense of high inductance. Here is the link

http://www.audioholics.com/techtips/...eFaceoffp2.htm


Well, please check out this link:

http://bruce.coppola.name/audio/cableInteractions.pdf

Check out what cable 6 and 11 are as identified on page 2 as and then check out in figure 2 on page 3 as to which cable has the most capacitance. How about cable 6 and 11? Oh, he identifies them as ribbon cable?

Maybe ribbon cables changed over the years? Please note that this is a peer AES journal paper

[Tony_Montana]

Well, please check out this link:

http://bruce.coppola.name/audio/cableInteractions.pdf

Check out what cable 6 and 11 are as identified on page 2 as and then check out in figure 2 on page 3 as to which cable has the most capacitance. How about cable 6 and 11? Oh, he identifies them as ribbon cable.

Sorry Mtry, but I don't have Acrobat reader so can't open the link. But I believe you. Jnuetron also mentioned that different configuration of Ribbon cable will have different capacitance and inductance. But most ribbon configuration I have seen are edge to edge configuration (same as the one Gene used), so I went by that assumption

Flat, wide conductor ribbons separated by the insulation, placed face to face, will have higher capacitance and lower inductance. If they are placed edge to edge, they will have low capacitance and high inductance.

What configuration is face to face? The most ribbon cables I have seen are edge to edge to make them thin and "ribbon" like

It seems to me that a 30 band equalizer or a parametric equalizer would require the use of professional grade measuring equipment and a technician experienced in using it. It's simply mind boggling imagining trying to get results by ear with something that complicated.

Not really. It can be done with ear, but increment adjustments have be small (less than 1 dB) and taking your time doing it

[mtrycraft]

Sorry Mtry, but I don't have Acrobat reader so can't open the link.

It's free download

I was thinking of the cable arrangement as in computers where the cables are side by side and pair up every other ones.

So, it depends how the ribbon is made

[Tony_Montana]

I was thinking of the cable arrangement as in computers where the cables are side by side and pair up every other ones.

So, it depends how the ribbon is made

I checked on this further and it seem that Ribbon cables can be made to have extremely low inductance (even lower than twisted pair) due to close loop coupling between conductors. I guess the ribbon speaker cable (which had high inductance) Gene used for the Shoot out was constructed as edge to edge

I'm not pointing this at you or anybody else for that matter, but if some folks are as serious about home audio sound as they appear to be, then pursuing room acoustics, speaker placement and equalization would, IMHO, have the potential for real sonic improvement compared to cables and other tweaks. Anybody can buy a hot rod power cord or speaker wire but it would take some imagination and research to pursue the goal of acoustically upgrading your room and I believe that would be a pursuit that is worthy and much more likely to give real, positive improvements.

Mike, please post it in CA. May be somebody will be saved

The exception might be a digital unit but 1 db would be the absolute outside limit. 2db is just too much of a range. One thing that amazed me is how I could tell even small changes in the settings once I head the same musical passage over and over again.

That amazes me also. I always thought that changes below 1 dB in either of audio extreme is hard to distinguish, but when I make changes to EQ in those areas that are less than 1 dB, I do notice a change when A/B it

[mtrycraft]

I checked on this further and it seem that Ribbon cables can be made to have extremely low inductance (even lower than twisted pair) due to close loop coupling between conductors. I guess the ribbon speaker cable (which had high inductance) Gene used for the Shoot out was constructed as edge to edge

I am having a difficult time with the difference here, how you place the wires edge to edge?
Are they flat wires, not round? That would certainly be different and explains it.

[Tony_Montana]

I am having a difficult time with the difference here, how you place the wires edge to edge?
Are they flat wires, not round? That would certainly be different and explains it.

Well, I think Jneutron might have explained it best. He said:"Given two ribbons half inch wide and 25 mils thick..
Side by side makes it one inch by 25 mils, that is what you considered ribbon.
Face to face makes it half inch wide, and 50 mils thick".Jn

One type of Ribbon cable that might be edge to edge (side by side), are the type that are specifically made to be placed under the carpet. No humps

When one part of the spectrum changes relative to another by 1 db or even less, that change to the spectral balance may be audible. It's a change to the overall impression you get and it's sometimes hard to put your finger on.

It might be worth mentioning that when a change made to an EQ settings, it will also effect the targeted adjacent frequency[s]. I have a 10 band EQ, and when I change setting on 8 kHz band, I am sure 7 kHz and 9 kHz band also be effected-to lesser degree. That might explain why we hear even small changes with EQs.

[skeptic]

"That amazes me also. I always thought that changes below 1 dB in either of audio extreme is hard to distinguish, but when I make changes to EQ in those areas that are less than 1 dB, I do notice a change when A/B it "

You reminded me of something I had forgotten a long time ago. When I was in the sixth grade, they came around from the Junior High School to give a test to see if anyone who wanted to be in "orchestra class" the next year was qualified. What was the test? They didn't care if you ever heard of Beethoven or Mozart. They never asked. All they did was to play a succession of pairs of musical tones. You had to be able to tell which one was the higher pitch. These tones were so close in pitch, they probably weren't off by much more than an eighth note. It's not something I actually hear the way I'd hear adjacent whole tones, it's something I kind of feel like one tone is sour or the other is brilliant when comparing them. You can try this on a violin by bowing a string while rocking your finger slowly back and forth on the same string on the fingerboard. It's like very slight pitch bending on an electronic keyboard. If you concintrate, you may be able to hear more than you think you can. The rule of thumb that 1 db change in loudness is the limit of what you can hear may be a generalization of the population as a whole which doesn't apply to everybody. When one part of the spectrum changes relative to another by 1 db or even less, that change to the spectral balance may be audible. It's a change to the overall impression you get and it's sometimes hard to put your finger on. Now who really has the sharp ears and who just wishes or thinks they do?

[jneutron]

What configuration is face to face? The most ribbon cables I have seen are edge to edge to make them thin and "ribbon" like

Given two ribbons half inch wide and 25 mils thick..

Side by side makes it one inch by 25 mils, that is what you considered ribbon.

Face to face makes it half inch wide, and 50 mils thick.

Ribbons can also be like the type used in computers..the cables that go to internal hard drives..they are lots of round wires side by side..some ribbon speaker cables are made by alternating conductors pos and neg. In essence, it takes the inductance of a pair of those wires, and parallels them..one pair, with say, .2 uH per foot, 50 pairs in parallel would be 200 nH divided by 50, or 4 nH per foot. (yah, I know this is very simplistic, as pair to pair proximity will also drop the inductance total..but the flavor is better kept by keeping the explanation simple.) Capacitance increases at about the same rate..

Cheers, John

[skeptic]

To discount the validity of the most commonly used wire for loudspeakers and audio interconnects as the best choice would be to assume that all of the people who have been researching, manufacturing, and using this material for nearly the last hundred years don't know what they are doing or talking about and that a handful of upstart marketing types, self appointed audio gurus, and delusioned tinkerers, all with a self serving goal of finding a product to make them selves rich are the ones with the right answers. Intelligent people who think about this will probably come to the conclusion that this whole new niche industry is a crock while those who don't will probably get ripped off buying expensive wires which if anything are inferior performers to what the mainstream of technically competent professionals rely on to earn a living.

[jneutron]

Gene mentioned that Ribbon cables had the lowest measured capacitance out of all the cables in this face off, at the expense of high inductance.

Gene stated that a specific ribbon cable in his faceoff had lowest capacitance of those measured.

I do not recall him generalizing to all ribbons.

Without going to a coaxial system to constrain the magnetic field, flat, wide conductor ribbons separated by the insulation, placed face to face, will have higher capacitance and lower inductance. If they are placed edge to edge, they will have low capacitance and high inductance. The same if they are face to face, but are far apart..

Ribbons that are multiple wires, alternating, will be somewhere in the middle..

But the generalization that all ribbons are (one or the other) cannot be made..organization of the conductors will still play a large role.

Cheers, John