Would all cables sound alike under DBT test?...Probably not!

[jneutron]

I have news for audiophiles, your room already alters the sound of the music. Has anyone here heard of a mode or a node? Resonances?

Eq is a VERY valuable tool in the hands of the educated and experienced. It in combination with acoustical eq(bass traps, absorption foam, diffusor and reflectors) can transform a really bad sounding room, into one that has quite please sonic qualities. Of course CHEAP eq's don't help in any situation. One octave eq's are less than worthless.

Not many people know what to look for when purchasing a EQ, so off to ebay. Most purchase cheap, usless eq's, so off to ebay. Most do not have the associated equipment that it takes to even make a very good eq helpful, so off to ebay.

Eq is not the problem, ignorance, inexperience, and lack of education are.

Unlike either you or skeptic, I have found it to be a trivial matter to setup and use my two channel 11 band eq.. Trivial enough, in fact, that my 9 and 11 year old children can also use it..

It is, of course, unfortunate, that once I have touched those damn knobs, I eventually have to bypass the stupid thing to get any reaonable sound out of it..

The only reason I have the darn thing is to eq the daylights outta my mobile two way rig..I designed the speakers for portability, efficiency, and spl...using 5% crossover components, and going for a simple +/- 3db on axis response..yah, the sweet spot (if there really is one) is about two degrees wide...but 450 people don't complain..(true, I wouldn't listen anyway...he he).

Cheers, John

PS..yah, I really do agree with you...an eq in the hands of some is a weapon of masked destruction..

[F1]

Just out of curiosity, where are these good eq's. It seems like there are a ton of really cheap ones out there. I know McIntosh makes some, but are there others?
.......

Well I'm happy with Behringer FB1502 15-band equaliser. It's only $120 which is much cheaper than those exotic cables.

[skeptic]

"I have found it to be a trivial matter to setup and use my two channel 11 band eq.. Trivial enough, in fact, that my 9 and 11 year old children can also use it.."

Apparantly that is why you get results that are so trivial that you prefer to bypass it. I think that proves my point. Even if you suspend your disbelief that this can actually be a useful tool in a fine home audio system, getting real benefit from it takes more than a trivial effort. Most people give up long before they even start down the right road so what you say is hardly surprising to me.

If you ever decide to make any serious attempt to use it. Why not first listen to a lot of unamplified live music, then set all of the controls for flat, and then adjusting only one or two controls very cautiously, see if you can get just a minor improvement for a start. Don't do anything else for weeks until you are convinced that the change is for the better not for the worse. Then satisfy yourself with just a small improvement each time taking days or weeks to decide if the last change was for the better or the worse. Reitterate this until you are just about nuts and you'll get some idea of why I say it is a long slow patient process. Any attempt to fix every problem at once is doomed.

[pctower]

Equalizers are practically being given away at eBay auctions. I see auctions for these things starting at $1 and ending up with no bids, and those that do sell, frequently go for prices that are lower than their shipping costs. Depreciation from the price when new may be the worst of any audio gear. Do you have any thoughts on the lack of demand for used equalizers?

BTW, the Wilson WAMM speaker system, which was at one time the most expensive two-channel, home-based speaker system in the world, employed an equalizer. Dave Wilson would personally spend 3-days setting up a new system, with much emphasis on the equalizer setting.

I once saw him set up a system and it was fascinating to say the least. Unfortunately, he would be banned from this board because he says this about cables:

"There are several good cables on the market that are compatible with Wilson Audio products. Generally speaking, we find that "networked" cables to be the most predictable and provide the best overall performance. However, cable combinations are often dependent on the total combination of products in one’s system. Contact your Dealer for specific questions on cable choices."

He probably believes in alien abductions and Miss Cleo too. No - even worse - he's a Mormon.

[skeptic]

Still smoking the weed Phil?

" Contact your Dealer for specific questions on cable choices."

C'mon Phil, who are you and this guy Wilson kidding. Whatever dealer you call will say that while there are many good products on the market (rarely will knock someone elses product) the brands he carries are the best ones to buy for the money in each price category. As for quality, he'll tell you there's good, better, and best which by some strange conincidence happen to coincide exactly with expensive, expensiver, and expensivest.

What are "network" cables? More made up technobabble to further confuse the already confused no doubt.

BTW, why do you bother to tell this to us "peasants" who shop only at Best Buy or Circuit City anyway. Aren't we beneath you ....Lord of the Tower?

[jneutron]

"I have found it to be a trivial matter to setup and use my two channel 11 band eq.. Trivial enough, in fact, that my 9 and 11 year old children can also use it.."

Apparantly that is why you get results that are so trivial that you prefer to bypass it. I think that proves my point. Even if you suspend your disbelief that this can actually be a useful tool in a fine home audio system, getting real benefit from it takes more than a trivial effort. Most people give up long before they even start down the right road so what you say is hardly surprising to me.

If you ever decide to make any serious attempt to use it. Why not first listen to a lot of unamplified live music, then set all of the controls for flat, and then adjusting only one or two controls very cautiously, see if you can get just a minor improvement for a start. Don't do anything else for weeks until you are convinced that the change is for the better not for the worse. Then satisfy yourself with just a small improvement each time taking days or weeks to decide if the last change was for the better or the worse. Reitterate this until you are just about nuts and you'll get some idea of why I say it is a long slow patient process. Any attempt to fix every problem at once is doomed.

Ummm...Skep? Ya gotta lighten up, dude..it was a joke..don't worry, I'll keep my day job..

Cheers, John

[Resident Loser]

...now yer bein' sillie....

"...Contact your Dealer for specific questions on cable choices."

Which in essence translates to "write us a blank check" or "give us your bank account's PIN"...

Sorry, fella'...I've said it before and I'ma gonna' say it agin...most salesmen are equally adept at selling refrigerators as they are audio equipment; they know little about either...wouldn't know the diff between wire and cable...they push what the boss tells 'em to. I've met a few who were conversant enough to provide half-decent opinions and recs, but for the most part they were few and far between...and the same goes for cars, storm windows, toaster-ovens...yada, yada yada...ad infinitum...

jimHJJ(...I assume the "networked" refers to MITs or whatevers, terminated in those little black boxes...and actually, he(Wilson) probably believes he shouldn't bite the hands of his bretheren...)

[Bobby Blacklight]

Hello Beckman

There are a couple of nice EQ's I can think of being Urei 539 and White Instruments. 1/3 octave cut only. Low noise very nice units. Then you have parametrics with give you more flexabillity. But you have to know who to use them.

[okiemax]

BTW, the Wilson WAMM speaker system, which was at one time the most expensive two-channel, home-based speaker system in the world, employed an equalizer. Dave Wilson would personally spend 3-days setting up a new system, with much emphasis on the equalizer setting.

I once saw him set up a system and it was fascinating to say the least. Unfortunately, he would be banned from this board because he says this about cables:

"There are several good cables on the market that are compatible with Wilson Audio products. Generally speaking, we find that "networked" cables to be the most predictable and provide the best overall performance. However, cable combinations are often dependent on the total combination of products in one’s system. Contact your Dealer for specific questions on cable choices."

He probably believes in alien abductions and Miss Cleo too. No - even worse - he's a Mormon.

I knew a few high-end manufacturers were in Utah(e.g., Wilson, Sound Lab, Zu). There probably are others. Maybe they are not all LDS -- some may be refugees from the Golden State.

I may be missing something, but are people here saying they adjust equalizers by ear under sighted listening conditions? If so, are some of them the same guys who say sighted listening is unreliable?

[Resident Loser]

...a fool's errand IMHO...

...as I outlined in my response to your post yesterday...and which I take the liberty of re-posting here:

...many pleasureable evenings making adjustment after adjustment to all those controls..."

Probably one of the misconceived reasons for purchase and why EQs have a low rep...

For the most part, and when used as intended, EQs should be a "set it and forget it" component...even octave equalizers are difficult, if not impossible to set up by ear. Using program material further complicates the task...A calibrated source, such as a test disk or disc(media dependent) and an SPL meter are the minimal required tools. I've found graph paper, not just a little patience and an understanding spouse to also be invaluable. One must keep in mind, they do have limits and should be used judiciously, functioning as a frequency "equalizer" and not a "gain device"...

Not that just "playing around" with 'em can't be useful however...it will give you some idea of the level of malarkey that abounds in "audiophile land" re: air and inner details and such...

If you want to tweak a poor recording, simple tone controls are usually more than sufficient...that's of course if you have any!

jimHJJ(...worked for me...)

[okiemax]

...a fool's errand IMHO...

...as I outlined in my response to your post yesterday...and which I take the liberty of re-posting here:

...many pleasureable evenings making adjustment after adjustment to all those controls..."

Probably one of the misconceived reasons for purchase and why EQs have a low rep...

For the most part, and when used as intended, EQs should be a "set it and forget it" component...even octave equalizers are difficult, if not impossible to set up by ear. Using program material further complicates the task...A calibrated source, such as a test disk or disc(media dependent) and an SPL meter are the minimal required tools. I've found graph paper, not just a little patience and an understanding spouse to also be invaluable. One must keep in mind, they do have limits and should be used judiciously, functioning as a frequency "equalizer" and not a "gain device"...

Not that just "playing around" with 'em can't be useful however...it will give you some idea of the level of malarkey that abounds in "audiophile land" re: air and inner details and such...

If you want to tweak a poor recording, simple tone controls are usually more than sufficient...that's of course if you have any!

jimHJJ(...worked for me...)

I think skeptic said he did it by ear. I wasn't sure about everyone's description of what they did, which Is why I prefaced my question with a "I may be missing something."

Anyway, not having used an equalizer, I'm not sure I understand the procedure. How do you know the equalizer is needed to begin with, if not by using your ears,and how do you know you adjusted the equalizer right, if not by using yours ears? And if you listen, is it blinded or sighted listening?

[pctower]

I think skeptic said he did it by ear. I wasn't sure about everyone's description of what they did, which Is why I prefaced my question with a "I may be missing something."

Anyway, not having used an equalizer, I'm not sure I understand the procedure. How do you know the equalizer is needed to begin with, if not by using your ears,and how do you know you adjusted the equalizer right, if not by using yours ears? And if you listen, is it blinded or sighted listening?

I can't believe it. Here we've been talking about equalizers and I totally forgot I've got two in my system - one per channel. My Vandy 5s use an 11-band equalizer on the self-powered subwoofers. Richard Vandersteen personally set mine using just a Stereophile CD and
my Rat Shack sound thingy.

Result: just about the cleanest, most extended bass I've ever heard in a system.

I tend to forget the equalizers are even there. Once set, I never felt the need to go back and tinker.

[Monstrous Mike]

Once set, I never felt the need to go back and tinker.

Absolutly correct. However, if you knock out a wall in your listening room, raise the ceiling, go from carpet to hardwood, etc., you might want to invite Richard Vandersteen back for a beer and a tweak.

[Monstrous Mike]

How do you know the equalizer is needed to begin with, if not by using your ears,and how do you know you adjusted the equalizer right, if not by using yours ears? And if you listen, is it blinded or sighted listening?

The only time you really don't need an equalizer is when you have an acoustically perfect room with a flat response from 20-20000 Hz. So really, everybody needs one if you want to get technical. And I would venture to guess that a combination of room acoustics and proper equalization would make anyone completely forget about cables.

I'm no acoustic expert but I would guess that what is needed is a frequency response map of the listening room and then a plan to correct frequency fluctuations with the equalizer. Depending on the dimensions, shape and content of the room, some frequencies will likely resonate which is usually undesirable. Then you would re-measure and see if it is flat yet (flat is the goal). When you are done you can do a blind comparision between equalizer bypass and the new settings to see if you prefer them.

I would suspect you would need some fairly sophisticated equipment to map the frequency response of a room.

In the end, the difficult part is that some or most people either don't like a flat response or have never really heard a true one so it might sound odd.

These are just ramblings so take them with a grain of salt.

[Bobby Blacklight]

You want to get the response in room as good as you can with placement and room treatments. Then you use cut only EQ's as icing on the cake. You map across your primary listening positions with an RTA and go from there. By ear won't work you need a pink noise source and a good measurement device. You can get computer based RTA software for not much money and a measurement mike for around $50 from Behringer. Just need a phantom power source for the mic and you can go right into your sound card. Takes a while to get it all set-up for a final curve but it's worth it.

[Tony_Montana]

Well, please check out this link:

http://bruce.coppola.name/audio/cableInteractions.pdf

Check out what cable 6 and 11 are as identified on page 2 as and then check out in figure 2 on page 3 as to which cable has the most capacitance. How about cable 6 and 11? Oh, he identifies them as ribbon cable.

Sorry Mtry, but I don't have Acrobat reader so can't open the link. But I believe you. Jnuetron also mentioned that different configuration of Ribbon cable will have different capacitance and inductance. But most ribbon configuration I have seen are edge to edge configuration (same as the one Gene used), so I went by that assumption

Flat, wide conductor ribbons separated by the insulation, placed face to face, will have higher capacitance and lower inductance. If they are placed edge to edge, they will have low capacitance and high inductance.

What configuration is face to face? The most ribbon cables I have seen are edge to edge to make them thin and "ribbon" like

It seems to me that a 30 band equalizer or a parametric equalizer would require the use of professional grade measuring equipment and a technician experienced in using it. It's simply mind boggling imagining trying to get results by ear with something that complicated.

Not really. It can be done with ear, but increment adjustments have be small (less than 1 dB) and taking your time doing it

[Beckman]

I can't believe it. Here we've been talking about equalizers and I totally forgot I've got two in my system - one per channel. My Vandy 5s use an 11-band equalizer on the self-powered subwoofers. Richard Vandersteen personally set mine using just a Stereophile CD and
my Rat Shack sound thingy.

Result: just about the cleanest, most extended bass I've ever heard in a system.

I tend to forget the equalizers are even there. Once set, I never felt the need to go back and tinker.

Rat shack sound thingy? Do you remember exactly how he did it? I would think you would just sit where a listener would sit and adjust the level of sound for each frequency as to have a flat frequency response.

[okiemax]

The only time you really don't need an equalizer is when you have an acoustically perfect room with a flat response from 20-20000 Hz. So really, everybody needs one if you want to get technical. And I would venture to guess that a combination of room acoustics and proper equalization would make anyone completely forget about cables.

I'm no acoustic expert but I would guess that what is needed is a frequency response map of the listening room and then a plan to correct frequency fluctuations with the equalizer. Depending on the dimensions, shape and content of the room, some frequencies will likely resonate which is usually undesirable. Then you would re-measure and see if it is flat yet (flat is the goal). When you are done you can do a blind comparision between equalizer bypass and the new settings to see if you prefer them.

I would suspect you would need some fairly sophisticated equipment to map the frequency response of a room.

In the end, the difficult part is that some or most people either don't like a flat response or have never really heard a true one so it might sound odd.

These are just ramblings so take them with a grain of salt.

Those were pretty good ramblings. Your outline of the procedure for using an equalizer made sense to me. A couple of questions come to mind. How would you expain why a flat response is good? What does it mean if a person doesn't like a flat response?

[Beckman]

How would you expain why a flat response is good? What does it mean if a person doesn't like a flat response?

I see your point. I am from Wisconsin, I grew up firing shotguns and hunting rifles and am a little tone deaf. So I tend to like the treble turned up a little (The frequency response is flat in my head, but not to a meter). But I can see how using a sound meter and a test cd would at least help with getting a sub to blend well with speakers or at least getting a starting point from which you could tweak the higher or lower frequencies a little to taste. Also, when making up for room accoustics each speaker might need to be adjusted differently.

[Thomas_A]

Note that it is the direct sound of the speaker that should be flat, not the direct sound + room reflections. Room treatment should be made according to the dead end - live end principle and parametric EQ use to tame standing waves should be used with care to get a good compromise betweeh static and dynamic properties.

T

[mtrycraft]

Sorry Mtry, but I don't have Acrobat reader so can't open the link.

It's free download

I was thinking of the cable arrangement as in computers where the cables are side by side and pair up every other ones.

So, it depends how the ribbon is made

[mtrycraft]

my Rat Shack sound thingy.

.

Huh? How long you been here? SPL meter

[jneutron]

What configuration is face to face? The most ribbon cables I have seen are edge to edge to make them thin and "ribbon" like

Given two ribbons half inch wide and 25 mils thick..

Side by side makes it one inch by 25 mils, that is what you considered ribbon.

Face to face makes it half inch wide, and 50 mils thick.

Ribbons can also be like the type used in computers..the cables that go to internal hard drives..they are lots of round wires side by side..some ribbon speaker cables are made by alternating conductors pos and neg. In essence, it takes the inductance of a pair of those wires, and parallels them..one pair, with say, .2 uH per foot, 50 pairs in parallel would be 200 nH divided by 50, or 4 nH per foot. (yah, I know this is very simplistic, as pair to pair proximity will also drop the inductance total..but the flavor is better kept by keeping the explanation simple.) Capacitance increases at about the same rate..

Cheers, John

[skeptic]

To discount the validity of the most commonly used wire for loudspeakers and audio interconnects as the best choice would be to assume that all of the people who have been researching, manufacturing, and using this material for nearly the last hundred years don't know what they are doing or talking about and that a handful of upstart marketing types, self appointed audio gurus, and delusioned tinkerers, all with a self serving goal of finding a product to make them selves rich are the ones with the right answers. Intelligent people who think about this will probably come to the conclusion that this whole new niche industry is a crock while those who don't will probably get ripped off buying expensive wires which if anything are inferior performers to what the mainstream of technically competent professionals rely on to earn a living.

[Monstrous Mike]

How would you expain why a flat response is good?

The ideal situation is get the sound from the musicians in the studio to come out of your speakers with the same frequency information that they recorded their material at. Thus, at all stages of the signal going from an instrument right up to your speaker, there is usually a need to equalize the signal due to a variety of technical reasons. I know that recording engineers use equalization when burning a master CD. And usually, home owners would likely need to equalize again to take into account their equipment and room acoustics. The goal is to have the band sound exactly the same in your room as they did if you were sitting in the studio.

What does it mean if a person doesn't like a flat response?

The frequency response a person likes is a matter of taste. The band and the recording engineers decide what is right for them and then they record it. People might strive to duplicate that using an equalizer. If not, then they adjust the spectrum according to their tastes.

So I see two aspects that relate to home equalization. First, a person may want to compensate for room or equipment defiencies to flatten the frequency response. Second, a person may have particular tastes like heavy on the bass and wish to use their equalizer for this purpose.

Personal tastes are easy to fool around with. The hard part would be to get a flat response in any given room. The neat thing about that though is if you listen to a track in somebody's room and then go to somebody else with different equipment and a different room, it should sound the same (well within reason, of course).

I guess it could be comparable to singing in key. Anybody can sing the national anthem by themselves in any key they want but if you sing a duet, you must be in the same key, preferably the key the song was written in.