Would all cables sound alike under DBT test?...Probably not!

[okiemax]

Couldn't agree more. The question is why use cables to attenuate or add distorition to a stereo. Why not use an equalizer?

Equalizers are practically being given away at eBay auctions. I see auctions for these things starting at $1 and ending up with no bids, and those that do sell, frequently go for prices that are lower than their shipping costs. Depreciation from the price when new may be the worst of any audio gear. Do you have any thoughts on the lack of demand for used equalizers?

[pctower]

Equalizers are practically being given away at eBay auctions. I see auctions for these things starting at $1 and ending up with no bids, and those that do sell, frequently go for prices that are lower than their shipping costs. Depreciation from the price when new may be the worst of any audio gear. Do you have any thoughts on the lack of demand for used equalizers?

Do you have any thoughts on the lack of demand for used equalizers?

Check out this paper starting on page 16:

http://international.infinitysystems...rt_science.pdf

and this:

http://www.jblpro.com/LSR/PDF/White%20Papers.pdf

and especially this:

http://articles.findarticles.com/p/a...ec/ai_70035922

[okiemax]

Do you have any thoughts on the lack of demand for used equalizers?

Check out this paper starting on page 16:

http://international.infinitysystems...rt_science.pdf

and this:

http://www.jblpro.com/LSR/PDF/White%20Papers.pdf

and especially this:

http://articles.findarticles.com/p/a...ec/ai_70035922

After reading these articles, I think I see why equalizers are so cheap on eBay. My guess is many users are disappointed with results from these devices, and may see them as a hifi liability. After looking at several on eBay, however, I can see how the meter readers might go ga ga over these things. A person could spend many pleasureable evenings making adjustment after adjustment to all those controls.

I have to confess, the gadget lover in me was attracted to a couple of remote-controlled equalizers on auction, particularily a Sansui with a remote that could be hidden inside the cabinet ( at $50 "Buy Now," but no takers). This unit might be worth $30 to me, considering it's entertainment value, and how it would impress my non-audiophile friends, who don't even notice my cables.

P.S. If I end up buying one of these things, I think it's only fair that I send Beckman the bill for having brought up the subject.

[Resident Loser]

...many pleasureable evenings making adjustment after adjustment to all those controls..."

Probably one of the misconceived reasons for purchase and why EQs have a low rep...

For the most part, and when used as intended, EQs should be a "set it and forget it" component...even octave equalizers are difficult, if not impossible to set up by ear. Using program material further complicates the task...A calibrated source, such as a test disk or disc(media dependent) and an SPL meter are the minimal required tools. I've found graph paper, not just a little patience and an understanding spouse to also be invaluable. One must keep in mind, they do have limits and should be used judiciously, functioning as a frequency "equalizer" and not a "gain device"...

Not that just "playing around" with 'em can't be useful however...it will give you some idea of the level of malarkey that abounds in "audiophile land" re: air and inner details and such...

If you want to tweak a poor recording, simple tone controls are usually more than sufficient...that's of course if you have any!

jimHJJ(...worked for me...)

[Beckman]

P.S. If I end up buying one of these things, I think it's only fair that I send Beckman the bill for having brought up the subject.

How about you send me a check for the price difference between an equalizer on ebay and a high end set of speaker cables

[Sir Terrence the Terrible]

As for two channel audiophile's I think they look down upon anything that alters the sound of the music by attenuating the signal for a certain frequency range. I personaly have an integrated amplifier that does not have any equalizer controls on it and don't find that it needs them.

I have news for audiophiles, your room already alters the sound of the music. Has anyone here heard of a mode or a node? Resonances?

Eq is a VERY valuable tool in the hands of the educated and experienced. It in combination with acoustical eq(bass traps, absorption foam, diffusor and reflectors) can transform a really bad sounding room, into one that has quite please sonic qualities. Of course CHEAP eq's don't help in any situation. One octave eq's are less than worthless.

Not many people know what to look for when purchasing a EQ, so off to ebay. Most purchase cheap, usless eq's, so off to ebay. Most do not have the associated equipment that it takes to even make a very good eq helpful, so off to ebay.

Eq is not the problem, ignorance, inexperience, and lack of education are.

[Beckman]

Not many people know what to look for when purchasing a EQ, so off to ebay. Most purchase cheap, usless eq's, so off to ebay. Most do not have the associated equipment that it takes to even make a very good eq helpful, so off to ebay.

Eq is not the problem, ignorance, inexperience, and lack of education are.

Just out of curiosity, where are these good eq's. It seems like there are a ton of really cheap ones out there. I know McIntosh makes some, but are there others?

As for having the associated equipment to make a good eq helpful, why couldn't a good eq be helpful to any stereo?

I am not looking for an argument, but posing serious questions

[F1]

Just out of curiosity, where are these good eq's. It seems like there are a ton of really cheap ones out there. I know McIntosh makes some, but are there others?
.......

Well I'm happy with Behringer FB1502 15-band equaliser. It's only $120 which is much cheaper than those exotic cables.

[Bobby Blacklight]

Hello Beckman

There are a couple of nice EQ's I can think of being Urei 539 and White Instruments. 1/3 octave cut only. Low noise very nice units. Then you have parametrics with give you more flexabillity. But you have to know who to use them.

[jneutron]

I have news for audiophiles, your room already alters the sound of the music. Has anyone here heard of a mode or a node? Resonances?

Eq is a VERY valuable tool in the hands of the educated and experienced. It in combination with acoustical eq(bass traps, absorption foam, diffusor and reflectors) can transform a really bad sounding room, into one that has quite please sonic qualities. Of course CHEAP eq's don't help in any situation. One octave eq's are less than worthless.

Not many people know what to look for when purchasing a EQ, so off to ebay. Most purchase cheap, usless eq's, so off to ebay. Most do not have the associated equipment that it takes to even make a very good eq helpful, so off to ebay.

Eq is not the problem, ignorance, inexperience, and lack of education are.

Unlike either you or skeptic, I have found it to be a trivial matter to setup and use my two channel 11 band eq.. Trivial enough, in fact, that my 9 and 11 year old children can also use it..

It is, of course, unfortunate, that once I have touched those damn knobs, I eventually have to bypass the stupid thing to get any reaonable sound out of it..

The only reason I have the darn thing is to eq the daylights outta my mobile two way rig..I designed the speakers for portability, efficiency, and spl...using 5% crossover components, and going for a simple +/- 3db on axis response..yah, the sweet spot (if there really is one) is about two degrees wide...but 450 people don't complain..(true, I wouldn't listen anyway...he he).

Cheers, John

PS..yah, I really do agree with you...an eq in the hands of some is a weapon of masked destruction..

[skeptic]

"I have found it to be a trivial matter to setup and use my two channel 11 band eq.. Trivial enough, in fact, that my 9 and 11 year old children can also use it.."

Apparantly that is why you get results that are so trivial that you prefer to bypass it. I think that proves my point. Even if you suspend your disbelief that this can actually be a useful tool in a fine home audio system, getting real benefit from it takes more than a trivial effort. Most people give up long before they even start down the right road so what you say is hardly surprising to me.

If you ever decide to make any serious attempt to use it. Why not first listen to a lot of unamplified live music, then set all of the controls for flat, and then adjusting only one or two controls very cautiously, see if you can get just a minor improvement for a start. Don't do anything else for weeks until you are convinced that the change is for the better not for the worse. Then satisfy yourself with just a small improvement each time taking days or weeks to decide if the last change was for the better or the worse. Reitterate this until you are just about nuts and you'll get some idea of why I say it is a long slow patient process. Any attempt to fix every problem at once is doomed.

[Resident Loser]

...I have no idea why equalizers don't seem to have a market...perhaps, most of them are cheaply-made, with the ability to screw things up more than fix them...less than octave-width, which really renders them glorified tone controls...misunderstanding their abilities and incorrect use by consumers may also have given them a bad rap...outright misuse is fairly common; it would seem as though most users employ them as overall "gain devices" as opposed to equalizers...

Now for the fun part...PCT, I'm not sure what sort of follow-up research you did re: your citations but, after reading them, off went all my buzzers and bells...the first two "white papers" were authored by people who would seem to have more than a passing interest in their respective organizations proprietary ideas and products. Both schemes seem aimed at the professional market and perhaps, at some future date, may filter down to the home audio enthusiast in a reasonable and reasonably priced form.

The co-authors of the third reference are even more firmly entrenched in the marketing facet of the industry...one of them seems to have been, at various times: an electronic publisher, a media company director and even the editor and webmaster of the site cited itself(say THAT a few times)...other titles include: sales manager, manufacturers rep, marketing manager and director of sales. The other was named director of business development of a well-known name in pro audio apps, has held other "key sales and marketing positions", was VP of sales and marketing for another. regional sales manager and manufacturers rep for yet another.

Hardly trying to denigrate these gentlemen's abilities in their respective fields of expertise, but I always have to take what certain folks say with a grain of salt...especially when they all seem to badmouth one thing in deference to something else they seem to have...er, shall we say...an "interest" in...

jimHJJ(...but, of course and as always, that's just me...)

[pctower]

...I have no idea why equalizers don't seem to have a market...perhaps, most of them are cheaply-made, with the ability to screw things up more than fix them...less than octave-width, which really renders them glorified tone controls...misunderstanding their abilities and incorrect use by consumers may also have given them a bad rap...outright misuse is fairly common; it would seem as though most users employ them as overall "gain devices" as opposed to equalizers...

Now for the fun part...PCT, I'm not sure what sort of follow-up research you did re: your citations but, after reading them, off went all my buzzers and bells...the first two "white papers" were authored by people who would seem to have more than a passing interest in their respective organizations proprietary ideas and products. Both schemes seem aimed at the professional market and perhaps, at some future date, may filter down to the home audio enthusiast in a reasonable and reasonably priced form.

The co-authors of the third reference are even more firmly entrenched in the marketing facet of the industry...one of them seems to have been, at various times: an electronic publisher, a media company director and even the editor and webmaster of the site cited itself(say THAT a few times)...other titles include: sales manager, manufacturers rep, marketing manager and director of sales. The other was named director of business development of a well-known name in pro audio apps, has held other "key sales and marketing positions", was VP of sales and marketing for another. regional sales manager and manufacturers rep for yet another.

Hardly trying to denigrate these gentlemen's abilities in their respective fields of expertise, but I always have to take what certain folks say with a grain of salt...especially when they all seem to badmouth one thing in deference to something else they seem to have...er, shall we say...an "interest" in...

jimHJJ(...but, of course and as always, that's just me...)

Dr. Toole is God on this board. You are risking excommunication.

[Resident Loser]

...I just calls 'em as I sees 'em...let the chips fall where they may...

jimHJJ(...I guess that's why I'm still doin' what I have been for 35 years...)

[Beckman]

Equalizers are practically being given away at eBay auctions. ...Do you have any thoughts on the lack of demand for used equalizers?

With the popularity of surround sound receivers that have equalizers built in there is no need for such devices in todays market for the average consumer. As for two channel audiophile's I think they look down upon anything that alters the sound of the music by attenuating the signal for a certain frequency range. I personaly have an integrated amplifier that does not have any equalizer controls on it and don't find that it needs them.

My main argument to begin with was that any sound difference in an aftermarket cable over standard 12 gauge zip cord can only be caused from an attenuation in the signal over some part of the audio frequency range (usualy higher frequwncies giving a warm sound to the music). So why spend large sums of money on what is basicly a passive crossover when one could purchase an equalizer for $50 on ebay and have an active crossover?

I think the answer has a lot to do with the audiophile crowd that feels the more you spend the better the sound, and don't know anything about signals, systems, Laplace transforms and electric & magnetic fields.

If I had $2000 to improve the sound of a high end stereo I would look towards room treatments.

[skeptic]

The proper use of an equalizer to enhance the sound of a home audio system almost certainly is beyond the capabilities of most audiophiles. The home use consumer type spectrum analyzers, noise generators, and microphones doesn't give satisfactory results based on my experience with them. It takes a well trained ear familiar with the sound of live unamplified music and extraordinary patience. It normally takes me about two years to adjust one to my satisfaction after everything else has been optimized. However, after a mere two months, I am making surprising progress on my Bose 901 enhancement project. The real problem of the moment is getting the bass right. That's often tough.

While a 10 band equalizer doesn't offer nearly the precision or flexibility of a 27 or 30 band equalizer, what it can offer is substantial improvement. It seems to me that a 30 band equalizer or a parametric equalizer would require the use of professional grade measuring equipment and a technician experienced in using it. It's simply mind boggling imagining trying to get results by ear with something that complicated.

[pctower]

Equalizers are practically being given away at eBay auctions. I see auctions for these things starting at $1 and ending up with no bids, and those that do sell, frequently go for prices that are lower than their shipping costs. Depreciation from the price when new may be the worst of any audio gear. Do you have any thoughts on the lack of demand for used equalizers?

BTW, the Wilson WAMM speaker system, which was at one time the most expensive two-channel, home-based speaker system in the world, employed an equalizer. Dave Wilson would personally spend 3-days setting up a new system, with much emphasis on the equalizer setting.

I once saw him set up a system and it was fascinating to say the least. Unfortunately, he would be banned from this board because he says this about cables:

"There are several good cables on the market that are compatible with Wilson Audio products. Generally speaking, we find that "networked" cables to be the most predictable and provide the best overall performance. However, cable combinations are often dependent on the total combination of products in one’s system. Contact your Dealer for specific questions on cable choices."

He probably believes in alien abductions and Miss Cleo too. No - even worse - he's a Mormon.

[skeptic]

Still smoking the weed Phil?

" Contact your Dealer for specific questions on cable choices."

C'mon Phil, who are you and this guy Wilson kidding. Whatever dealer you call will say that while there are many good products on the market (rarely will knock someone elses product) the brands he carries are the best ones to buy for the money in each price category. As for quality, he'll tell you there's good, better, and best which by some strange conincidence happen to coincide exactly with expensive, expensiver, and expensivest.

What are "network" cables? More made up technobabble to further confuse the already confused no doubt.

BTW, why do you bother to tell this to us "peasants" who shop only at Best Buy or Circuit City anyway. Aren't we beneath you ....Lord of the Tower?

[Resident Loser]

...now yer bein' sillie....

"...Contact your Dealer for specific questions on cable choices."

Which in essence translates to "write us a blank check" or "give us your bank account's PIN"...

Sorry, fella'...I've said it before and I'ma gonna' say it agin...most salesmen are equally adept at selling refrigerators as they are audio equipment; they know little about either...wouldn't know the diff between wire and cable...they push what the boss tells 'em to. I've met a few who were conversant enough to provide half-decent opinions and recs, but for the most part they were few and far between...and the same goes for cars, storm windows, toaster-ovens...yada, yada yada...ad infinitum...

jimHJJ(...I assume the "networked" refers to MITs or whatevers, terminated in those little black boxes...and actually, he(Wilson) probably believes he shouldn't bite the hands of his bretheren...)

[okiemax]

BTW, the Wilson WAMM speaker system, which was at one time the most expensive two-channel, home-based speaker system in the world, employed an equalizer. Dave Wilson would personally spend 3-days setting up a new system, with much emphasis on the equalizer setting.

I once saw him set up a system and it was fascinating to say the least. Unfortunately, he would be banned from this board because he says this about cables:

"There are several good cables on the market that are compatible with Wilson Audio products. Generally speaking, we find that "networked" cables to be the most predictable and provide the best overall performance. However, cable combinations are often dependent on the total combination of products in one’s system. Contact your Dealer for specific questions on cable choices."

He probably believes in alien abductions and Miss Cleo too. No - even worse - he's a Mormon.

I knew a few high-end manufacturers were in Utah(e.g., Wilson, Sound Lab, Zu). There probably are others. Maybe they are not all LDS -- some may be refugees from the Golden State.

I may be missing something, but are people here saying they adjust equalizers by ear under sighted listening conditions? If so, are some of them the same guys who say sighted listening is unreliable?

[Resident Loser]

...a fool's errand IMHO...

...as I outlined in my response to your post yesterday...and which I take the liberty of re-posting here:

...many pleasureable evenings making adjustment after adjustment to all those controls..."

Probably one of the misconceived reasons for purchase and why EQs have a low rep...

For the most part, and when used as intended, EQs should be a "set it and forget it" component...even octave equalizers are difficult, if not impossible to set up by ear. Using program material further complicates the task...A calibrated source, such as a test disk or disc(media dependent) and an SPL meter are the minimal required tools. I've found graph paper, not just a little patience and an understanding spouse to also be invaluable. One must keep in mind, they do have limits and should be used judiciously, functioning as a frequency "equalizer" and not a "gain device"...

Not that just "playing around" with 'em can't be useful however...it will give you some idea of the level of malarkey that abounds in "audiophile land" re: air and inner details and such...

If you want to tweak a poor recording, simple tone controls are usually more than sufficient...that's of course if you have any!

jimHJJ(...worked for me...)

[okiemax]

...a fool's errand IMHO...

...as I outlined in my response to your post yesterday...and which I take the liberty of re-posting here:

...many pleasureable evenings making adjustment after adjustment to all those controls..."

Probably one of the misconceived reasons for purchase and why EQs have a low rep...

For the most part, and when used as intended, EQs should be a "set it and forget it" component...even octave equalizers are difficult, if not impossible to set up by ear. Using program material further complicates the task...A calibrated source, such as a test disk or disc(media dependent) and an SPL meter are the minimal required tools. I've found graph paper, not just a little patience and an understanding spouse to also be invaluable. One must keep in mind, they do have limits and should be used judiciously, functioning as a frequency "equalizer" and not a "gain device"...

Not that just "playing around" with 'em can't be useful however...it will give you some idea of the level of malarkey that abounds in "audiophile land" re: air and inner details and such...

If you want to tweak a poor recording, simple tone controls are usually more than sufficient...that's of course if you have any!

jimHJJ(...worked for me...)

I think skeptic said he did it by ear. I wasn't sure about everyone's description of what they did, which Is why I prefaced my question with a "I may be missing something."

Anyway, not having used an equalizer, I'm not sure I understand the procedure. How do you know the equalizer is needed to begin with, if not by using your ears,and how do you know you adjusted the equalizer right, if not by using yours ears? And if you listen, is it blinded or sighted listening?

[pctower]

I think skeptic said he did it by ear. I wasn't sure about everyone's description of what they did, which Is why I prefaced my question with a "I may be missing something."

Anyway, not having used an equalizer, I'm not sure I understand the procedure. How do you know the equalizer is needed to begin with, if not by using your ears,and how do you know you adjusted the equalizer right, if not by using yours ears? And if you listen, is it blinded or sighted listening?

I can't believe it. Here we've been talking about equalizers and I totally forgot I've got two in my system - one per channel. My Vandy 5s use an 11-band equalizer on the self-powered subwoofers. Richard Vandersteen personally set mine using just a Stereophile CD and
my Rat Shack sound thingy.

Result: just about the cleanest, most extended bass I've ever heard in a system.

I tend to forget the equalizers are even there. Once set, I never felt the need to go back and tinker.

[Monstrous Mike]

Once set, I never felt the need to go back and tinker.

Absolutly correct. However, if you knock out a wall in your listening room, raise the ceiling, go from carpet to hardwood, etc., you might want to invite Richard Vandersteen back for a beer and a tweak.

[Beckman]

I can't believe it. Here we've been talking about equalizers and I totally forgot I've got two in my system - one per channel. My Vandy 5s use an 11-band equalizer on the self-powered subwoofers. Richard Vandersteen personally set mine using just a Stereophile CD and
my Rat Shack sound thingy.

Result: just about the cleanest, most extended bass I've ever heard in a system.

I tend to forget the equalizers are even there. Once set, I never felt the need to go back and tinker.

Rat shack sound thingy? Do you remember exactly how he did it? I would think you would just sit where a listener would sit and adjust the level of sound for each frequency as to have a flat frequency response.