Islam: Our Partners in Peace...

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Originally Posted by Hyfi

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I would also like to know how people like yourself chalk the whole thing up to mere chance. (if that is how you see it. One does not have to believe in the Main Stream God to accept that there are some pretty strong spiritual forces at work all the time. ....

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Like FA, I guess, I don't believe in the necessity of "spiritual forces" to exlain the universe and evolution.

Some say that the complex universe couldn't have come from nothing but needed "intelligent designer" (i.e. god, mainstream or otherwise). The standard, reductionist response to this is, where did the intelligent designer come from?

The other thing to consider is that evolution of species is not a matter of "mere chance". Chance has a role to play, but evolution causes chance changes that work to survive and those that don't to perish -- evolution isn't chance, it's a process. (In this regard, read Richard Dawkin's argument in The God Delusion.)

I have a question for those here who are religious. And I ask this seriously, with an attempt to understand, there is no intent of maliciousness or facetiousness.

I'm watching the CNN coverage of the tornado in Missouri. They are talking to a man whose home was flattened. He and his family were in the basement and he said that they were down there praying. Totally understandable to me. They showed a photo of his destroyed home on the news and the newscaster said, "we're looking at a picture of your home now and there is nothing left. How is it that your family survived and you all got out of your home safely?" He responded that "it was by the grace of God. We were praying the entire time and our prayers were answered".

I get all of that. My question is, how do you then explain those who died? Why were his prayers answered but other's weren't? If it's God's will, why was this family favoured while others perished? This is a part of religious belief that I have never understood, although I've tried.

I'm not criticizing. I'm not questioning or belittling his belief. I'm just curious how people who believe that they are alive because their prayers were answered justify the deaths of others.

Good question FA.

I always go by this, God answers all your prayers. The answer is usually NO.

So the people who lived while praying were lucky and the answer was an unusual YES. All others who died must not have been the good people they thought they were. Maybe they didn't give the required 10% before feeding themselves.

I was in a church in Arkansas a few years back that was pretty cool just up to the time when the guy went into his Tithing tirade. Did you know that if you don't give the first 10% of your paycheck to the church, you are Stealing From God. My wife and I almost got escorted out when we busted out loud with a laugh. If looks could kill, we would have been dead.

Along with your question, I always find it funny how sports players and teams go out to the court or field with a prayer. Why would God favor one player or team over the other and make one win and the other lose?

I ask this same question when I see signs such as God Bless America in times of war. Is god really going to help the US kill other peoples and win Wars? I don't think so.

I secretly want to go out in the middle of the nigh and change all these signs to God Bless the World, which would be more realistic....maybe.

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Originally Posted by Hyfi

I always go by this, God answers all your prayers. The answer is usually NO.

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Here's my thought on this:

If God exists and is all-powerful and all-knowing, hence has a divine plan (as so many religious people claim) then why would he change his plan just because you or I don't like what's happening?

I believe the world is exactly as it is intended to be...

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Originally Posted by Ajani

Here's my thought on this:

If God exists and is all-powerful and all-knowing, hence has a divine plan (as so many religious people claim) then why would he change his plan just because you or I don't like what's happening?

I believe the world is exactly as it is intended to be...

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That is why everything happens for a reason, we may just not see it.

Having been in a spiritual state during an out of body experience I know there is life after the death of the body. Since I have seen ghosts I know other souls have continued after the death of the body. During my spiritual state I was at peace and had no fears of the physical world. Therefore I believe and know we have a soul.

During my time free of my body I had no sense of a god. Of course that may only come after the death of the body. After being in a spiritual state I began to recognize how many models of god attributed him with many petty human charateristics. The God I think of is beyond human understanding.

I do not believe in prayer since none have ever been answered. If God was a loving and vengeful god lighting bolts should have been delivered. I agree that God put things in motion for those that live but we should never tell children that god will help.

This is what I believe and what I do not. I do not believe in the judeo/christian model of god. I need to think of God as above the human traits he is accused of having. That model of god is truly a reflection of the people who created him.

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Originally Posted by ForeverAutumn

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I'm not criticizing. I'm not questioning or belittling his belief. I'm just curious how people who believe that they are alive because their prayers were answered justify the deaths of others.

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No, go ahead and belittle religious belief. While not questioning people's faith might be polite, it doesn't help them in the long run, and sustains superstition. Not questioning things is much of what's wrong with the world.

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Originally Posted by Hyfi

Good question FA.

I always go by this, God answers all your prayers. The answer is usually NO.
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The belief that prayers are answered is the effect of confirmation bias. Religion is just another, delusional coping mechanism: get over it.

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Originally Posted by JohnMichael

Having been in a spiritual state during an out of body experience I know there is life after the death of the body. Since I have seen ghosts I know other souls have continued after the death of the body. During my spiritual state I was at peace and had no fears of the physical world. Therefore I believe and know we have a soul.
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Out-of-body experience are pretty common and follow a typical pattern. Needless to say there is no substantial evidence that they are anything but brain chemistry.

What bothers me about accounts like your, JM, is that people rely on their "feelings" to tell them what is true, i.e. factual. I utterly reject the notion of "subjective truth". We must continually question everything beginning with ourselves.

What do I believe in? One thing only: skepticism.

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Originally Posted by Feanor

No, go ahead and belittle religious belief. While not questioning people's faith might be polite, it doesn't help them in the long run, and sustains superstition. Not questioning things is much of what's wrong with the world.

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Feanor, you and I may both be atheists but, unlike you, I don't enjoy insulting people who are religious. Everyone has a right to believe what they want. Although I don't agree that there is a God, who am I to judge those who do?

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Originally Posted by ForeverAutumn

Feanor, you and I may both be atheists but, unlike you, I don't enjoy insulting people who are religious. Everyone has a right to believe what they want. Although I don't agree that there is a God, who am I to judge those who do?

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Were I to believed in pedophilia would it be OK to practice or preach it? If I believe that "belief" is wrong and harmful, should I not say so?

Granted, I have been an excessively candid person all my life -- it took me a long time to figure out this isn't an entirely good thing. It hasn't done me much good or endeared me to people, but I'm too old now to reform very much or even want to.

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Originally Posted by ForeverAutumn

Feanor, you and I may both be atheists but, unlike you, I don't enjoy insulting people who are religious. Everyone has a right to believe what they want. Although I don't agree that there is a God, who am I to judge those who do?

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Although insulting others may not be the best thing, Feanor has as much right to tell someone they are crazy or wrong for believing something as much as those who believe tell everyone else we are wrong for not believing. It is insulting both ways and I take just as much offense when I am told that there is only one true religion and if I don't believe it I am going to Hell.

If the believers can tell all non believers we are wrong for not believing, than why can't we tell those who believe that they are wrong for believing? Works both ways. Until all religions, specially Christianity, concede that all religions are different pathways to the same god, and that their way is not the best and only way, this will be an endless debate. There is no right or wrong, but only what gets one through the day. That being said, nobodies beliefs should be forced upon others in any way.

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Originally Posted by Feanor

Out-of-body experience are pretty common and follow a typical pattern. Needless to say there is no substantial evidence that they are anything but brain chemistry.

What bothers me about accounts like your, JM, is that people rely on their "feelings" to tell them what is true, i.e. factual. I utterly reject the notion of "subjective truth". We must continually question everything beginning with ourselves.

What do I believe in? One thing only: skepticism.

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When I floated up out of my body for the first time and perceived myself on the bed my first emotion was what the hell did I do now. Then the sense of peace settled in to my being. I am glad I am not a skeptic. I would have missed much of the magic of life.

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Originally Posted by Feanor

Were I to believed in pedophilia would it be OK to practice or preach it? If I believe that "belief" is wrong and harmful, should I not say so?

Granted, I have been an excessively candid person all my life -- it took me a long time to figure out this isn't an entirely good thing. It hasn't done me much good or endeared me to people, but I'm too old now to reform very much or even want to.

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Comparing pedophelia to religion is low, even for you.

It's a perfect example of why this site has gone from a thriving community a few years ago to a small, incestious few that get their jollies attacking religion.

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Originally Posted by markw

It's a perfect example of why this site has gone from a thriving community a few years ago to a small, incestious few that get their jollies attacking religion.

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Thats bull! This place died the first week after they upgraded to Vb and that was years ago.

Also, this out of the way Steel Cage forum was created for these types of off topic conversations.

And what about the jollies that the believers get telling the rest how wrong they are for having no religion or the wrong religion? That part is ok, right?

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Originally Posted by Hyfi

Thats bull! This place died the first week after they upgraded to Vb and that was years ago.

Also, this out of the way Steel Cage forum was created for these types of off topic conversations.

And what about the jollies that the believers get telling the rest how wrong they are for having no religion or the wrong religion? That part is ok, right?

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So, who is proselytising here? All I ever see is athiests glad-handing each other.

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Originally Posted by markw

So, who is proselytising here? All I ever see is athiests glad-handing each other.

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Maybe you should go back and read the whole thread. You will find several claims from MrP as to the 4 gospels contradicting each other and his justification of it. But in reality, neither of the 4 were even in the place and circumstances that they write about and go by here say alone.

If you have some backing data as to why you are right and others are wrong, post it. You don't because there is nothing d4rfinative either way, it's all faith or skepticism.

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Originally Posted by Hyfi

Maybe you should go back and read the whole thread. You will find several claims from MrP as to the 4 gospels contradicting each other and his justification of it. But in reality, neither of the 4 were even in the place and circumstances that they write about and go by here say alone.

If you have some backing data as to why you are right and others are wrong, post it. You don't because there is nothing d4rfinative either way, it's all faith or skepticism.

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One person? Did he force it down your throats or was it in response to questions?

...big difference.

Now, as for the religion bashing, that starts of it's own free will, over and over. Like you said, re-read this thread.

If it wasn't for that and SVI, this place would be a morgue. I hopw the owners are proud.

I can only speak for myself when I say I think it is easy to bash religion when I see fundamentalism of any religion as a source of many problems in the world today. From suicide bombers to murdering doctors for performing abortions. I am very troubled by those who try to force their beliefs on me by passing laws that restrict my right to marry. I do not like what many churches teach about me. Some churches still teach that you can be forgiven for killing a man but straight to hell for loving one. Where is the love in those teachings. I could go on about the negative impact organized religion has had on my life but I will spare you.

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Originally Posted by Hyfi

If the believers can tell all non believers we are wrong for not believing, than why can't we tell those who believe that they are wrong for believing? Works both ways.

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I agree. But that's not what Feanor was suggesting. He was suggesting that I belittle someone for their beliefs, which is something that I would never do. I can disagree with someone without feeling the need to put them down. Is it being polite as he suggests? No, I think it's being tolerant. It's the realization that there are many different beliefs out there and although I don't see eye-to-eye with Mr. Peabody (for example) on this topic, he has no less right to his beliefs than I have to mine. That's the beauty of being human and having the ability to think for ourselves and form our own opinions.

As for my original post about the tornado, I wanted it to be clear to those who I was asking the question of that I was not trying to put them down and start an argument but, honestly, wanted to know what they thought. As I've said before, in spite of my atheism I find the religious train of thought interesting and I try to understand it, even if I don't subscribe to it.

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Originally Posted by Feanor

No, go ahead and belittle religious belief. While not questioning people's faith might be polite, it doesn't help them in the long run, and sustains superstition. Not questioning things is much of what's wrong with the world.

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See my response to Hyfi. I will not put someone down over religion. And I am questioning things. My tornado related post was a question. So, I'm really not sure what you're going on about or why you responded to me at all since you weren't doing so to answer my question.

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Originally Posted by JohnMichael

I can only speak for myself when I say I think it is easy to bash religion when I see fundamentalism of any religion as a source of many problems in the world today. From suicide bombers to murdering doctors for performing abortions. I am very troubled by those who try to force their beliefs on me by passing laws that restrict my right to marry. I do not like what many churches teach about me. Some churches still teach that you can be forgiven for killing a man but straight to hell for loving one. Where is the love in those teachings. I could go on about the negative impact organized religion has had on my life but I will spare you.

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You don't have to spare me. I don't judge, but I do have strong feelings about some things. As for marriage, this is an institution that has gone on in it's current form since the beginning of time and, if history is any indication, it's been quite successful in preserving the species. I really don't see any cause to change it. Already legal ramifications are starting to be seen here.

As for nuts bombing abortion clinics, how many can you count? I'll bet there are more pedophile/homosexual priests abusing children, not to mention prison rape. Don't even get me started on NAMBLA.

As for homosexuals in society, have at it but don't try to convince me, or my children that it's normal. It's an aberration of nature, nothing more, and should be accepted as such.

As for your going to hell for your preferences, that's between you and your god, nobody else. Take it up with him/her/whatever. But, if you don't believe in one, unless the local townsfolk attack your castle with pitchforks and torches, why should what others believe bother you? Remember, sticks and stones...

Mark thanks for hitting a new low in your defense of religion. You proved my point so well. Oh and if you care to be educated homosexuals are not pedophiles. Homo's are men who date other men and pedophiles like children who have not started puberty. Most pedophiles are straight and are not concerned about the gender of the child just that they are truly innocent. As far as priests are concerned they certainly are not the only religious group molesting children. As far as NAMBLA being brought into this I now know you for what you are.

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Originally Posted by JohnMichael

Mark thanks for hitting a new low in your defense of religion. You proved my point so well. Oh and if you care to be educated homosexuals are not pedophiles. Homo's are men who date other men and pedophiles like children who have not started puberty. Most pedophiles are straight and are not concerned about the gender of the child just that they are truly innocent. As far as priests are concerned they certainly are not the only religious group molesting children. As far as NAMBLA being brought into this I now know you for what you are.

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You chose to involve the outliers, not I. Bringing NAMBLA into the mix is no different than your bringing in the few nut-jobs that took it upon themselves to bomb abortion clinics.

As for "not only priests molesting children" what the hell does that have to do with anything? Any people that abuse children should meet an untimely death, doncha think?

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Originally Posted by markw

You don't have to spare me. I don't judge, but I do have strong feelings about some things.

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We all have strong feelings about politics and religion

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Originally Posted by markw

It's a perfect example of why this site has gone from a thriving community a few years ago to a small, incestious few that get their jollies attacking religion.

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That sounds like judgment. It is OK that Christians have traveled the world telling everyone that their way is the only way and if you don't change you will be judged. But when a handful of people question it and press for more than "you either believe it all or you don't really believe, they are an insestious group of people.

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Originally Posted by Hyfi

We all have strong feelings about politics and religion

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Which is why most real audio sites that aren't begging for traffic keep them off limits.

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Originally Posted by Hyfi

That sounds like judgment. It is OK that Christians have traveled the world telling everyone that their way is the only way and if you don't change you will be judged.

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Unless they are the ones doing the judging and passing the sentence why should you care? If they are wrong and there is no God, you have no worries, do you?

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Originally Posted by Hyfi

But when a handful of people question it and press for more than "you either believe it all or you don't really believe, they are an insestious group of people.

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Questioning is one thing. Downright insulting it, like comparing it to pedophilia,i s quite another, doncha think? The fact nobody here sees this is quite telling.

And, as logic should dictate, something that is faith-based cannot be expected to provide black/white answers.

If you want to attack faith-based things, stick to cables and interconnects, which seem to be immune from requiring scientific proof in this hobby.

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Originally Posted by markw

You don't have to spare me. I don't judge, but I do have strong feelings about some things. As for marriage, this is an institution that has gone on in it's current form since the beginning of time and, if history is any indication, it's been quite successful in preserving the species. I really don't see any cause to change it. Already legal ramifications are starting to be seen here.

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Mark, I have stayed clear of this argument, but your Neanderthal like perspective is pretty troubling. Marriage has been going on since the beginning of time, but so has rape, racism, and several other things. Considering the fact that the divorce rate sit firmly at 50%, one has to doubt whether this model is all that successful. All of my siblings have gone through a divorce, and I am the only one that didn't. We have 6 billion folks on this planet, so procreation has done its job, and is pretty much through as an excuse for keep things "as it is". Straight folks have done wonderful things with marriage(turns sarcasm button off). The institution is truly in a state of dysfunction, and at this point, it is not a beacon of light you are trying to make it.

There are legal ramifications in any divorce, so that is a flimsy excuse for not allowing same sex marriage.

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As for nuts bombing abortion clinics, how many can you count? I'll bet there are more pedophile/homosexual priests abusing children, not to mention prison rape. Don't even get me started on NAMBLA.

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If even one person dies from a abortion clinic bombing, that is too many. Most prison rapes are done by those who consider themselves straight in society. Rape in prison is not about sexuality, it is about control. Unfortunately gays are victims of prison rapes far more than the are perpetrators.

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As for homosexuals in society, have at it but don't try to convince me, or my children that it's normal. It's an aberration of nature, nothing more, and should be accepted as such.

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If it is such an aberration of nature, then why can you find it in nature so much? How many gays have to be created by God(man is his creation) and put on this earth before it becomes acceptable? There are millions of gays all over the world, and that is a lot of aberrations - is nature becoming dysfunctional? More and more are being born each day, so why does God let this happen if it is an aberration? Nobody on this planet who is gay wants to waste their time trying to convince you of anything, they have their lives to live.

Since you are not God, no one really has to accept anything just because you state it. Your proclamations are just your opinion, and that should be taken with a bag of salt. No where in the Bible does God or Jesus mention anything about homosexuality, so this is nothing more than the opinion of man, or laws created by man to control man.

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As for your going to hell for your preferences, that's between you and your god, nobody else. Take it up with him/her/whatever. But, if you don't believe in one, unless the local townsfolk attack your castle with pitchforks and torches, why should what others believe bother you? Remember, sticks and stones...

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This I agree with.

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Originally Posted by markw

Which is why most real audio sites that aren't begging for traffic keep them off limits.

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A fair point.. Religious discussions probably should be off limits as they lead to heated and usually nasty discussions...

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Originally Posted by markw

Questioning is one thing. Downright insulting it, like comparing it to pedophilia,i s quite another, doncha think? The fact nobody here sees this is quite telling.

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So you lift the quality of the discussion by calling the persons who question religion 'incestuous'? I just don't see the rationale...

Also, you make a very wrong assumption in concluding that no one sees the difference between questioning and the insulting that Feanor chose to do... In fact, FA already made it clear that she disagreed with Feanor...

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Originally Posted by markw

If you want to attack faith-based things, stick to cables and interconnects, which seem to be immune from requiring scientific proof in this hobby.

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I did my time with you there 12 years ago. Maybe you should stick to Mtrys school of Cables and become one of his disciples again over Audioholics.

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Originally Posted by Ajani

So you lift the quality of the discussion by calling the persons who question religion 'incestuous'? I just don't see the rationale...

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I use that word because it's always the same few that promote this subject.

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Originally Posted by Ajani

Also, you make a very wrong assumption in concluding that no one sees the difference between questioning and the insulting that Feanor chose to do... In fact, FA already made it clear that she disagreed with Feanor...

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And, as it now stands, she's the only one who sees it as wrong. I truly give her credit for that. As for the others, well, see for yourself.

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Originally Posted by Sir Terrence the Terrible

Mark, I have stayed clear of this argument, but your Neanderthal like perspective is pretty troubling. Marriage has been going on since the beginning of time, but so has rape, racism, and several other things. Considering the fact that the divorce rate sit firmly at 50%, one has to doubt whether this model is all that successful. All of my siblings have gone through a divorce, and I am the only one that didn't. We have 6 billion folks on this planet, so procreation has done its job, and is pretty much through as an excuse for keep things "as it is". Straight folks have done wonderful things with marriage(turns sarcasm button off). The institution is truly in a state of dysfunction, and at this point, it is not a beacon of light you are trying to make it.

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Marriage is a commitment that the couple needs to work at. It ain't always easy. It sometimes takes work, lots of it, and a lack of selfishness on both parts. That doesn't mean the institution is flawed, just that those involved aren't treating it with the respect that's due and are opting for the easy way out when it becomes too much work.

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Originally Posted by Sir Terrence the Terrible

[here are legal ramifications in any divorce, so that is a flimsy excuse for not allowing same sex marriage.

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True, but the "same sex" thing has caused confusion in several states already.

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Originally Posted by Sir Terrence the Terrible

If even one person dies from a abortion clinic bombing, that is too many.

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Seriously Terry ,you want to try to blame all religions for this? C'mon, I gave you more ctedit than that.

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Originally Posted by Sir Terrence the Terrible

Most prison rapes are done by those who consider themselves straight in society. Rape in prison is not about sexuality, it is about control. Unfortunately gays are victims of prison rapes far more than the are perpetrators.

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Whatever you say. I'd say it's ore to do with using what one has available.

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Originally Posted by Sir Terrence the Terrible

If it is such an aberration of nature, then why can you find it in nature so much? How many gays have to be created by God(man is his creation) and put on this earth before it becomes acceptable?

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When they are capable of reproducing on their own.

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Originally Posted by Sir Terrence the Terrible

There are millions of gays all over the world, and that is a lot of aberrations - is nature becoming dysfunctional? More and more are being born each day, so why does God let this happen if it is an aberration? Nobody on this planet who is gay wants to waste their time trying to convince you of anything, they have their lives to live.

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There's also more incidints of cancer, hepatitis and other healh issues over the past few years. They also perscribe drugs for childrens behavioural problems more and more lately. Are you going to try to tell me that's the new normal?

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Originally Posted by Sir Terrence the Terrible

Since you are not God, no one really has to accept anything just because you state it. Your proclamations are just your opinion, and that should be taken with a bag of salt. No where in the Bible does God or Jesus mention anything about homosexuality, so this is nothing more than the opinion of man, or laws created by man to control man.

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I never claim to be God, nor will say he doesn't exist. Nobody has to accept my opinions as the truth, but outside of this collection of social misfits, many do. And, I don't go making fun of others beliefs or actions, either. That's more than I can say about this place.

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Originally Posted by Hyfi

I did my time with you there 12 years ago. Maybe you should stick to Mtrys school of Cables and become one of his disciples again over Audioholics.

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And yet, we're still waiting for that proof. After all, this is science, which is based on testable facts, not faith-based religion, right?

The next time I have a question, I think I'll send a PM.

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Originally Posted by markw

When they are capable of reproducing on their own.

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Now we must limit marriage to couples who will and are capable of reproducing. A young man returning from war without his testicles will not be allowed to marry because he cannot reproduce. A young woman who is infertile will need to remain a spinster. A person born with both genders who is always sterile cannot marry the opposite of whatever gender they choose for themselves. If a man due to prostate cancer has his testicles removed to lengthen his life will his marriage be annulled?

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Originally Posted by JohnMichael

Now we must limit marriage to couples who will and are capable of reproducing. A young man returning from war without his testicles will not be allowed to marry because he cannot reproduce. A young woman who is infertile will need to remain a spinster. A person born with both genders who is always sterile cannot marry the opposite of whatever gender they choose for themselves. If a man due to prostate cancer has his testicles removed to lengthen his life will his marriage be annulled?

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It's logic like that that makes gays look stupid. They are the exception to the rule and don't skew the equation. It still maintains the natural ways of couples.

Now, when two people of the same sex can generate a child on their own, get back to me.
.

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Originally Posted by markw

It's logic like that that makes gays look stupid. They are the exception to the rule and don't skew the equation. It still maintains the natural ways of couples.

Now, when two people of the same sex can generate a child on their own, get back to me.
.

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Be very careful who you are calling stupid. I was just following your logic.

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Originally Posted by JohnMichael

Be very careful who you are calling stupid. I was just following your logic.

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Not very well, apparantly.

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Originally Posted by ForeverAutumn

The next time I have a question, I think I'll send a PM.

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There's nothing wrong with asking questions... Unless AR changes its forum policies, then you should feel free to ask what you want in this section...

I'm not an atheist, yet I am annoyed that a great deal of organized religion is intolerant of persons questioning their beliefs... Or if you can ask the question, you need to be willing to accept the official answer given by the 'church' or risk having your membership revoked...

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Originally Posted by markw

It's logic like that that makes gays look stupid. They are the exception to the rule and don't skew the equation. It still maintains the natural ways of couples.

Now, when two people of the same sex can generate a child on their own, get back to me.
.

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So it's all about reproduction Mark? My husband and I made a concious decision, before we got married, not to have children. As far as I know we are both perfectly capable of having children, we just choose not to. Do you think that we shouldn't have been allowed to marry?

I think that marriage is about love and commitment. If two people love each other and want to make a commitment to each other why shouldn't they be allowed to do so? The ability or desire to reproduce shouldn't have any bearing on it.

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Originally Posted by ForeverAutumn

So it's all about reproduction Mark? My husband and I made a concious decision, before we got married, not to have children. As far as I know we are both perfectly capable of having children, we just choose not to. Do you think that we shouldn't have been allowed to marry?

I think that marriage is about love and commitment. If two people love each other and want to make a commitment to each other why shouldn't they be allowed to do so? The ability or desire to reproduce shouldn't have any bearing on it.

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That's a part of it but it's more of a "mating" of two bloodlines to pass the best of their genes, and possibly beliefs, on to another generation, not to mention financial /political continuity. That's why marriage has traditionally been between a man and a woman, for all societies, since the beginning of time. That's the reason for the male/female pairing, not raw sex per se.

As for your "conscious decision", that's your choice but you don't know what you're missing, or missed. I'm glad to have raised three boys into fine men and now they are working on six grandkids, so far. Yes, it took a bit of sacrifice and a lot of work but it was worth it. There's more to life than money.

That's why marriage has traditionally been between a man and a woman, for all societies, since the beginning of time. That's the reason for the male/female pairing, not raw sex per se.





In classical antiquity, writers such as Herodotus,[1] Plato,[2] Xenophon,[3] Athenaeus[4] and many others explored aspects of same-sex love in ancient Greece. The most widespread and socially significant form of same-sex sexual relations in ancient Greece was between adult men and adolescent boys, known as pederasty. (However, marriages in Ancient Greece between men and women were also age structured, with men in their 30s commonly taking wives in their early teens.) Though homosexual relationships between adult men did exist, at least one member of each of these relationships flouted social conventions by assuming a passive sexual role. It is unclear how such relations between women were regarded in the general society, but examples do exist as far back as the time of Sappho.[5]

The ancient Greeks did not conceive of sexual orientation as a social identifier, as Western societies have done for the past century. Greek society did not distinguish sexual desire or behavior by the gender of the participants, but rather by the role that each participant played in the sex act, that of active penetrator or passive penetrated.[5] This active/passive polarization corresponded with dominant and submissive social roles: the active (penetrative) role was associated with masculinity, higher social status, and adulthood, while the passive role was associated with femininity, lower social status, and youth.[5


Homosexuality was not frowned upon in Greece. The Theban army was composed of a Sacred Band, battalions of men with male lovers on the battlefield with them. The thought was they would fight harder to save and impress the one they loved.

Remember, Alexander had male lovers.

Lucius Cornelius Sulla, Roman general and dictator, had many relationships with other males.

Julius Caesar was called the Queen of Bithnyia by his political enemies in Rome because of the time he spent in Anatolia with the King of Bithnyia when he was younger.

Believe it. Also, Alexander and Julius Caesar are two of the most worshiped men in history.



Shall I post more?