Islam: Our Partners in Peace...

From Mr Peabody
Anyone who has heard of the cities of "Sodom and Gommorah" knows that they were notorious hotbeds of homosexuality. Gen 19:5-8 "and they called to Lot and said to him, 'Where are the men who came to you tonight? Bring them out to us that we may have relations with them.' But Lot went out to them at the doorway, and shut the door behind him, and said, 'Please, my brothers, do not act wickedly.'" The Greek word in the New Testament for homosexuality is literally "a sodomite". Jock is trying to redefine what the term "sodomite" means. (A term that has unchanged in 5000 years, even today- "sodomy") Apart from the fact the city was clearly destroyed by God because of homosexuality in the narrative of Gen 19, even the New Testament clearly states exactly the same thing in Jude 7 "Just as Sodom and Gomorrah and the cities around them, since they in the same way as these indulged in gross immorality and went after strange flesh, are exhibited as an example, in undergoing the punishment of eternal fire." Any sinner should always remember that the God who commands us to love our neighbour is the same God who will cast any and all unrepentant sinners into the "eternal fire". Here are more Bible quotes, Lev 18:22-23 "You shall not lie with a male as one lies with a female; it is an abomination." Lev 20:13 "If there is a man who lies with a male as those who lie with a woman, both of them have committed a detestable act; they shall surely be put to death." 1 Cor 6:9 "Or do you not know that the unrighteous shall not inherit the kingdom of God? Do not be deceived; neither fornicators, nor idolaters, nor adulterers, nor effeminate, nor homosexuals" 1 Tim 1:9-10 "realizing the fact that (civil) law is not made for a righteous man, but for those who are lawless and rebellious, for the ungodly and sinners, for the unholy and profane, for those who kill their fathers or mothers, for murderers and immoral men and homosexuals and kidnappers and liars and perjurers" Rom 1:26-27 "For this reason God gave them over to degrading passions; for their women exchanged the natural function for that which is unnatural, and in the same way also the men abandoned the natural function of the woman and burned in their desire toward one another, men with men committing indecent acts and receiving in their own persons the due penalty of their error."

http://www.christiangay.com/he_loves/sodom.htm
SODOM AND GOMORRAH

The story of Sodom and Gomorrah has been used by people to condemn gays. The argument used by them is that God destroyed these cities because the people of these cities were homosexuals. In this section we will show conclusive BIBLICAL evidence that Sodom and Gomorrah were NOT destroyed because of homosexuals. The only book I will use to show this is the Bible. The Bible does not contradict itself because the it is the Word of God and God is not fickle.

The beginning of this story is found in Genesis 13:

Genesis 13:8-13

So Abram said to Lot, "Let's not have any quarreling between you and me, or between your herdsmen and mine, for we are brothers. Is not the whole land before you? Let's part company. If you go to the left, I'll go to the right; if you go to the right, I'll go to the left." Lot looked up and saw that the whole plain of the Jordan was well watered, like the garden of the LORD, like the land of Egypt, toward Zoar. (This was before the LORD destroyed Sodom and Gomorrah.) So Lot chose for himself the whole plain of the Jordan and set out toward the east. The two men parted company: Abram lived in the land of Canaan, while Lot lived among the cities of the plain and pitched his tents near Sodom. Now the men of Sodom were wicked and were sinning greatly against the LORD. (NIV)

Abraham and Lot were so wealthy that they had to separate because the land could not support both of them with all their family members, herds, and workers in one place Lot chose to move his family to the twin cities.

The next time we hear about these cities is in Genesis 18:16-33. Here God tells Abraham his plan for Sodom and Gomorrah.

Genesis 18:20-21

Then the LORD said, "The outcry against Sodom and Gomorrah is so great and their sin so grievous that I will go down and see if what they have done is as bad as the outcry that has reached me. If not, I will know." (NIV)

Abraham pleads for these cities because of his nephew Lot. While Abraham and God were talking, the other two angels go to Sodom. Let's read for ourselves what really happened that day:

Genesis 19:1-13

The two angels arrived at Sodom in the evening, and Lot was sitting in the gateway of the city. When he saw them, he got up to meet them and bowed down with his face to the ground. "My lords," he said, "please turn aside to your servant's house. You can wash your feet and spend the night and then go on your way early in the morning." "No," they answered, "we will spend the night in the square." But he insisted so strongly that they did go with him and entered his house. He prepared a meal for them, baking bread without yeast, and they ate.

Before they had gone to bed, all the men from every part of the city of Sodom both young and old-- surrounded the house. They called to Lot, "Where are the men who came to you tonight? Bring them out to us so that we can have sex with them." Lot went outside to meet them and shut the door behind him and said, "No, my friends. Don't do this wicked thing. Look, I have two daughters who have never slept with a man. Let me bring them out to you, and you can do what you like with them. But don't do anything to these men, for they have come under the protection of my roof." "Get out of our way," they replied. And they said, "This fellow came here as an alien, and now he wants to play the judge! We'll treat you worse than them." They kept bringing pressure on Lot and moved forward to break down the door. But the men inside reached out and pulled Lot back into the house and shut the door. Then they struck the men who were at the door of the house, young and old, with blindness so that they could not find the door. The two men said to Lot, "Do you have anyone else here--sons-in- law, sons or daughters, or anyone else in the city who belongs to you? Get them out of here, because we are going to destroy this place. The outcry to the LORD against its people is so great that he has sent us to destroy it." (NIV)

There are several major holes in the theory that Sodom and Gomorrah were destroyed because of homosexuality. First, The idea that "all" the men of Sodom were gay is ridiculous. For one thing, Lot's daughters were pledged to be married to men of Sodom. Second, if all the men were homosexuals, why did Lot offer his daughters to appease them? What good would it do to offer a gay man a woman to have sex with? Finally, these people threatened Lot. If he didn't comply with their wishes they said they would do WORSE to him that to the two visitors. They were also trying to force the door down. They were obviously violent and they were trying to get at two unwilling guests. Whenever you mix sex with violence against an unwilling person you do not have homosexuality, you have RAPE.

There is another story in the Bible in which the same thing happened:

. Judges 19:13-27

He added, "Come, let's try to reach Gibeah or Ramah and spend the night in one of those places." So they went on, and the sun set as they neared Gibeah in Benjamin. There they stopped to spend the night. They went and sat in the city square, but no one took them into his home for the night. That evening an old man from the hill country of Ephraim, who was living in Gibeah (the men of the place were Benjamites), came in from his work in the fields. When he looked and saw the traveler in the city square, the old man asked, "Where are you going? Where did you come from?" He answered, "We are on our way from Bethlehem in Judah to a remote area in the hill country of Ephraim where I live. I have been to Bethlehem in Judah and now I am going to the house of the LORD. No one has taken me into his house. We have both straw and fodder for our donkeys and bread and wine for ourselves your servants-- me, your maidservant, and the young man with us. We don't need anything." "You are welcome at my house," the old man said. "Let me supply whatever you need. Only don't spend the night in the square." So he took him into his house and fed his donkeys. After they had washed their feet, they had something to eat and drink.

While they were enjoying themselves, some of the wicked men of the city surrounded the house. Pounding on the door, they shouted to the old man who owned the house, "Bring out the man who came to your house so we can have sex with him." The owner of the house went outside and said to them, "No, my friends, don't be so vile. Since this man is my guest, don't do this disgraceful thing. Look, here is my virgin daughter, and his concubine. I will bring them out to you now, and you can use them and do to them whatever you wish. But to this man, don't do such a disgraceful thing." But the men would not listen to him. So the man took his concubine and sent her outside to them, and they raped her and abused her throughout the night, and at dawn they let her go. At daybreak the woman went back to the house where her master was staying, fell down at the door and lay there until daylight. When her master got up in the morning and opened the door of the house and stepped out to continue on his way, there lay his concubine, fallen in the doorway of the house, with her hands on the threshold. (NIV)

http://www.christiangay.com/he_loves/sodom.htmNotice the similarity in the stories. Compare Genesis 19:4,5 with Judges 19:22.

Genesis 19:4,5

Before they had gone to bed, all the men from every part of the city of Sodom-- both young and old-- surrounded the house. They called to Lot, "Where are the men who came to you tonight? Bring them out to us so that we can have sex with them."

Judges 19:22

While they were enjoying themselves, some of the wicked men of the city surrounded the house. Pounding on the door, they shouted to the old man who owned the house, "Bring out the man who came to your house so we can have sex with him."

In the account in Judges the wicked men were appeased with the female concubine. This proves they were not homosexuals. They were after sex for power or rape. If you read further you'll learn that the tribe of Benjamin was almost totally destroyed because of this incident. Neither the tribe of Benjamin nor the cities of Sodom and Gomorrah were punished because of homosexuality. Both of these accounts clearly describe rape. What the men of Sodom were going to do to the angels in Genesis was what the men of Gibeah did to the traveler's concubine in Judges.

Why were Sodom and Gomorrah destroyed? What were the grievous sins that God judged them worthy of such destruction? What was the great outcry God was referring to in Genesis chapter 18? We don't need to wonder. The Bible tells us exactly why these cities were destroyed.

Ezekiel 16:48-50

As surely as I live, declares the Sovereign LORD, your sister Sodom and her daughters never did what you and your daughters have done. "'Now this was the sin of your sister Sodom: She and her daughters were arrogant, overfed and unconcerned; they did not help the poor and needy. They were haughty and did detestable things before me. Therefore I did away with them as you have seen. (NIV)

Ezekiel Chapter 16 is an allegory God used to compare unfaithful Jerusalem to an adulterous wife for committing religious adultery. As you can see God listed the sins of Sodom. No homosexuality is listed there. Those detestable or abominable acts mentioned refereed to the religious rituals popular in that time. We will cover these in the section on false gods.

Deuteronomy 29:22-26

Your children who follow you in later generations and foreigners who come from distant lands will see the calamities that have fallen on the land and the diseases with which the LORD has afflicted it. The whole land will be a burning waste of salt and sulfur-- nothing planted, nothing sprouting, no vegetation growing on it. It will be like the destruction of Sodom and Gomorrah, Admah and Zeboiim, which the LORD overthrew in fierce anger.

All the nations will ask: "Why has the LORD done this to this land? Why this fierce, burning anger?" And the answer will be: "It is because this people abandoned the covenant of the LORD, the God of their fathers, the covenant he made with them when he brought them out of Egypt. They went off and worshiped other gods and bowed down to them, gods they did not know, gods he had not given them. (NIV)

Moses was about to die and he predicted the scattering of Israel and the destruction of the land like the destruction of Sodom and Gomorrah. This destruction of Israel was not prophesied because of homosexuality but because of religious infidelity. This is quite in line with the context of the entire Bible. Of course God promises their restoration in Deuteronomy chapter 30. This complete restoration is about to happen in the end times, but that is another study.

Amos 4:11

"I overthrew some of you as I overthrew Sodom and Gomorrah. You were like a burning stick snatched from the fire, yet you have not returned to me," declares the LORD. (NIV)

If you read the book of Amos you find that God promises to overthrow Israel as He overthrew Sodom and Gomorrah for three things: turning away from God which is religious unfaithfulness, being evil to the poor and living selfishly. Homosexuality is not even addressed.

Jeremiah 23:13,14

"Among the prophets of Samaria I saw this repulsive thing: They prophesied by Baal and led my people Israel astray. And among the prophets of Jerusalem I have seen something horrible: They commit adultery and live a lie. They strengthen the hands of evildoers, so that no one turns from his wickedness. They are all like Sodom to me; the people of Jerusalem are like Gomorrah." (NIV)

Here is yet another comparison of the promised judgment of Israel to the judgment of Sodom and Gomorrah. Once again the theme is religious unfaithfulness, not homosexuality.

Matthew 10:11-15

"Whatever town or village you enter, search for some worthy person there and stay at his house until you leave. As you enter the home, give it your greeting. If the home is deserving, let your peace rest on it; if it is not, let your peace return to you. If anyone will not welcome you or listen to your words, shake the dust off your feet when you leave that home or town. I tell you the truth, it will be more bearable for Sodom and Gomorrah on the day of judgment than for that town. (NIV)

Here, Jesus Christ compares the sin of Sodom to the sin of faithlessness in people who reject the Gospel and inhospitality.

Matthew 11:20-24

Then Jesus began to denounce the cities in which most of his miracles had been performed, because they did not repent. "Woe to you, Korazin! Woe to you, Bethsaida! If the miracles that were performed in you had been performed in Tyre and Sidon, they would have repented long ago in sackcloth and ashes. But I tell you, it will be more bearable for Tyre and Sidon on the day of judgment than for you. And you, Capernaum, will you be lifted up to the skies? No, you will go down to the depths. If the miracles that were performed in you had been performed in Sodom, it would have remained to this day. But I tell you that it will be more bearable for Sodom on the day of judgment than for you." (NIV)

Here the Lord again makes reference to Sodom's destruction as he talks about unrepentant cities that refuse to believe in him or his miracles. This is about religious unfaithfulness and unbelief, not homosexuality.

If you don't know Jesus as your personal Lord and Savior, you can know him right now. Don't be guilty of not believing in Him. Here is what Jesus himself said:

John 3:16-18

"For God so loved the world that he gave his one and only Son, that whoever believes in him shall not perish but have eternal life. For God did not send his Son into the world to condemn the world, but to save the world through him. Whoever believes in him is not condemned, but whoever does not believe stands condemned already because he has not believed in the name of God's one and only Son. (NIV)

Notice that Jesus said WHOEVER believes in him shall have eternal life. The condemnation is reserved for WHOEVER does not believe in Him. He made no mention of homosexuals in this passage.

If you recognize that you are a sinner and need Jesus to be the Lord of your life then it is a very simple process. Ask God to forgive you of whatever has separated you from Him. That is what sin is. When you ask Him that he will forgive you:

I John 1:9-10

If we confess our sins, he is faithful and just and will forgive us our sins and purify us from all unrighteousness. If we claim we have not sinned, we make him out to be a liar and his word has no place in our lives. (NIV)

According to Romans 10:9,10 all you have to do is:

...confess with your mouth, "Jesus is Lord," and believe in your heart that God raised him from the dead, you will be saved. For it is with your heart that you believe and are justified, and it is with your mouth that you confess and are saved. (NIV)

At the end of this article is a simple sample prayer that you can pray. There is also some other information you will want if it is your desire to receive Jesus as your personal Lord and Savior.

If you have known Jesus as your Lord and Savior but felt you had to walk away because you are gay, come back to Him. He has never left you. Repent of whatever you have done to hurt yourself, others and God. He is just waiting for you with open arms. He understands it was all a misunderstanding. His love never fails.

Psalm 36:10-12

O continue thy lovingkindness unto them that know thee; and thy righteousness to the upright in heart. Let not the foot of pride come against me, and let not the hand of the wicked remove me. There are the workers of iniquity fallen: they are cast down, and shall not be able to rise. (KJV)

Psalm 48:9

Within your temple, O God, we meditate on your unfailing love. (NIV)

Give your heart back to Him and tell us about it. At the end of this article is some information for you if you have decided to rededicate your life back to God.

Moderator on:

Gentlemen, if we're going to quote large portions of text, from a copyright perspective, it;s imperative that sources be credited.

Moderator off:

Have at it...

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Originally Posted by bobsticks

Moderator on:

Gentlemen, if we're going to quote large portions of text, from a copyright perspective, it;s imperative that sources be credited.

Moderator off:

Have at it...

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Ah you called me gentleman.:ihih:

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Originally Posted by Mr Peabody

Bobsticks,I disagree, the New Testament is just as valid as the Old in respect to being God's word. Christ was with God in the beginning and equal. Jesus was willing to come to earth in the flesh. Isaiah, and much of the Old Testament prophesy to Christ's coming and what would happen to him while on earth. The New Testament allows for forgiveness of sin, something the Old Law did not have.

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Well, you can think that but it's wrong. The New Testament scriptures you quote are from the Acts of Apostles, specifically the Pauline Epistles. They are universally recognized as the works of Paul and not a direct transcription of quotations from either God or Jesus. Within historical context, the big one, Romans 1:26-27, was a rally against the movement away from Christianity in Rome toward Neo-Pagan fertility cults.

You're either arguing for a literal interpretation vis-a-vis the Old Testament or opinions generated by the fallible minds of men which came about after Jesus had sacrificed himself for all our sins and the remaining two commandments according to Jesus were "love God with all your heart, soul and mind and to love your neighbor as yourself".

I used the word "universally" in the first paragraph in so far as that's the distinction has that which has been used to seperate Christians between fundamentalists and Jews.

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Originally Posted by JohnMichael

Ah you called me gentleman.:ihih:

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First time in a while, eh? :D

While I have always felt that Sodom was a bad story to show that the bible is against homosexuality, as it could just easily be about rape and other sins, I will admit that Mr P is right with the other scriptures in the Old Testament. Homosexuality is condemned in the bible...

HOWEVER, the bible also condones slavery. Not even Jesus spoke out against slavery. Yet no right thinking individual would claim that slavery is acceptable today... So the KKK could just as easily quote scripture to support slavery, as many Christians do to condemn homosexuality...

The day I start taking the views of the KKK seriously, is when I'll accept the whole homosexuality is immoral argument... Both are based on ignorance and intolerance...

I don't understand your point, are you saying the "four gospels" of the NT are valid but the rest of the NT is not or that none of the NT is valid? Jesus told the apostles he would send them the Holy Spirit to aid them in starting the church. The NT writings were inspired by God.

With all that being said there are so many denominations of Christianity, obviously JM found one that twists things to his liking, I'm not sure what you believe, not all of the NT can be taken literally as some is written in apocolyptical language, some figurative, much of it is straight forward, but to understand it you have to read it with an open mind and not have your own biases. The Acts of the apostles gives us our pattern for the NT church so if you dismiss that then you go astray for sure.

My point is not against your belief but against the method of argument...and the effectiveness of that line of argumentation.

One can argue that something is immoral or sin due to divergence from the literal word of God. Boom. That's quotable. It's defined and debatable.

Augmenting that line of argumentation with works of a political hack with an agenda does nothing to advance your point because it introduces inconsistent variables, including but not limited to a timeline in which previous Laws have been abrogated and the fallibility of man.

So you are saying Paul, the apostle, is a political hack? The same Paul who was relentless in his pursuit to stamp out Christianity before his conversion.

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Originally Posted by Mr Peabody

So you are saying Paul, the apostle, is a political hack? The same Paul who was relentless in his pursuit to stamp out Christianity before his conversion.

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(imitates The Rock) IT DOESN"T MATTER WHO PAUL IS!!

It's a syllogism.

1) If God/Jesus denounces homosexuality then it's a sin
2) God/Jesus denounces homosexuality
3) Homosexuality is a sin

The bible was written by men. Period.

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Originally Posted by 02audionoob

The bible was written by men. Period.

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Written by men and edited by other men... All with their own agendas and beliefs...

Why is the majority of Jesus' life not written about in the bible? There is a huge gap from about age 12 until the very last few years of his life (around 30)... So are we to believe that he spent all those years just making cabinetry? Other religions have stories about what Jesus did in those missing years... even the Gnostic Gospels have some details about those times...

While I believe in the general teachings of Christ; the simple principle of love your neighbor as yourself... There are too many holes in the bible for me to take it literally... Worse the old testament which is just a rip of the Jewish Torah... Yet ironically, the Jews don't take those books literally, yet so many Christians do...

Wow- I have not been following this thread but it certainly has taken a turn.

All I will say is that the Bible like the Constitution is interpreted by people based on the core beliefs the reader already brings with them. Both documents are misquoted often, almost never read within the historical context in which they were written or with the intent of the original writers. Literal interpretations of both usually results in a very narrow path that hurts many people along the way.

I have also learned that you can't change someone's opinion of say the 2nd Amendment anymore than you can change their reading of specific passage of scripture.

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Originally Posted by Ajani

Written by men and edited by other men... All with their own agendas and beliefs...

Why is the majority of Jesus' life not written about in the bible? There is a huge gap from about age 12 until the very last few years of his life (around 30)... So are we to believe that he spent all those years just making cabinetry? Other religions have stories about what Jesus did in those missing years... even the Gnostic Gospels have some details about those times...

While I believe in the general teachings of Christ; the simple principle of love your neighbor as yourself... There are too many holes in the bible for me to take it literally... Worse the old testament which is just a rip of the Jewish Torah... Yet ironically, the Jews don't take those books literally, yet so many Christians do...

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I know I said I wasn't going to post in this thread anymore but wanted to address this. I have a very good book that traces the real historical proof and events that are known about Jesus life from childhood to marriage and beyond. It also pokes plenty of holes in the myths.

I originally bought this book years ago for my Father in Law who is a hard core Born Again thinking he would enjoy reading a little history about the man he has put so much faith in. He read a few pages and threw the book on the floor saying he did not want it. I guess it made him question himself.

The book is called Jesus a Life by A.N. Wilson. I cannot quote much from this book as it has been several years since I read it last but you can flip through the pages over at Amazon if anyone is interested.

http://www.amazon.com/gp/product/039...JGWGYZ69KDADGV


http://photo.goodreads.com/books/118...1l/1531514.jpg

OK, back to the sidelines for me.

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Originally Posted by Ajani

Written by men and edited by other men... All with their own agendas and beliefs...

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Really?!

Interesting. I did not know that. That, I did not know.

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Originally Posted by Ajani

Why is the majority of Jesus' life not written about in the bible? There is a huge gap from about age 12 until the very last few years of his life (around 30)... So are we to believe that he spent all those years just making cabinetry? Other religions have stories about what Jesus did in those missing years... even the Gnostic Gospels have some details about those times...

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Maybe the editors and the project developers felt that 30 years of cabinetry making would create a drag in the middle when the feature length film was later made.

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Originally Posted by A.J.

While I believe in the general teachings of Christ; the simple principle of love your neighbor as yourself... There are too many holes in the bible for me to take it literally... Worse the old testament which is just a rip of the Jewish Torah... Yet ironically, the Jews don't take those books literally, yet so many Christians do...

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Says you.

Frankly I like a good stoning in the spring...

Hey, no one here is on their second marriage, eh? Or maybe has a spouse that did a lil' somethin'-somethin' before betrothal?

If any man take a wife, and go in unto her, and hate her ... and say, I took this woman, and when I came to her, I found her not a maid: Then shall the father of the damsel, and her mother, take and bring forth the tokens of the damsel's virginity unto the elders of the city in the gate: And the damsel's father shall say ... these are the tokens of my daughter's virginity. And they shall spread the cloth before the elders of the city. ... But if this thing be true, and the tokens of virginity be not found for the damsel: Then they shall bring out the damsel to the door of her father's house, and the men of her city shall stone her with stones that she die-Deuteronomy 22:13-21

Good thing we've got some Parent-Of-The-Year award winners...

If a man have a stubborn and rebellious son, which will not obey the voice of his father, or the voice of his mother ... Then shall his father and his mother lay hold on him, and bring him out unto the elders of his city ... And they shall say unto the elders of his city, This our son is stubborn and rebellious, he will not obey our voice; he is a glutton, and a drunkard. And all the men of his city shall stone him with stones, that he die.-- Deuteronomy 21:18-21

Uh oh...remember the Bush and Obama threads? Yeah...that's a problem...

Thou didst blaspheme God and the king. And then carry him out, and stone him, that he may die.--1 Kings 21:10

UUggg...Adultery bad...rape victims too...

If a damsel that is a virgin be betrothed unto an husband, and a man find her in the city, and lie with her; Then ye shall bring them both out unto the gate of that city, and ye shall stone them with stones that they die; the damsel, because she cried not, being in the city.--Deuteronomy 22:23-24

My Grandmother told me that there was a passage in the bible that says, "It is better to spill your seed in the belly of a whore, than to spill it on the ground." So, I tried both and the bible's right! It's way better. That's one of the reasons they call it the good book. I'd imagine a lot of you are worried about that one.

And, hey, speaking of that...

If your hand causes you to sin, cut it off. It is better for you to enter into life maimed, rather than having two hands, to go to hell, into the fire that shall never be quenched. --Mark 9:43

Any adopted kids? From another marriage? Unholy unions?...better leave the kids at home

One of illegitimate birth shall not enter the congregation of the Lord--Deuteronomy 23:2

And, do God a favor...shut that ***** up...

Women should be silent in the churches, for they are not permitted to speak, but should be submissive, as the law also says--1 Corinthians 14:34

I've noticed as women get older, especially after marriage, they tend to opt for convenience of style in the grooming department but if your female septagenarian doesn't look like Saruman you'd better bind her feet.

Judge for yourselves: Is it proper for a woman to pray to God with her head uncovered? Does not even nature itself teach you that if a man has long hair it is a disgrace to him, but that if a woman has long hair, it is her glory? For her hair is given to her as a covering--1 Corinthians 11:13-15

It's a good thing everyone around here has their houses in order or we'd need some relief pitchers.


By the way, most of these particular inserts were culled from a Google search of "Arbitrary Scripture". The rest were from a search for "Fat Hypocrite"

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Originally Posted by bobsticks

Really?!

Interesting. I did not know that. That, I did not know.



Maybe the editors and the project developers felt that 30 years of cabinetry making would create a drag in the middle when the feature length film was later made.



Says you.

Frankly I like a good stoning in the spring...

Hey, no one here is on their second marriage, eh? Or maybe has a spouse that did a lil' somethin'-somethin' before betrothal?

If any man take a wife, and go in unto her, and hate her ... and say, I took this woman, and when I came to her, I found her not a maid: Then shall the father of the damsel, and her mother, take and bring forth the tokens of the damsel's virginity unto the elders of the city in the gate: And the damsel's father shall say ... these are the tokens of my daughter's virginity. And they shall spread the cloth before the elders of the city. ... But if this thing be true, and the tokens of virginity be not found for the damsel: Then they shall bring out the damsel to the door of her father's house, and the men of her city shall stone her with stones that she die-Deuteronomy 22:13-21

Good thing we've got some Parent-Of-The-Year award winners...

If a man have a stubborn and rebellious son, which will not obey the voice of his father, or the voice of his mother ... Then shall his father and his mother lay hold on him, and bring him out unto the elders of his city ... And they shall say unto the elders of his city, This our son is stubborn and rebellious, he will not obey our voice; he is a glutton, and a drunkard. And all the men of his city shall stone him with stones, that he die.-- Deuteronomy 21:18-21

Uh oh...remember the Bush and Obama threads? Yeah...that's a problem...

Thou didst blaspheme God and the king. And then carry him out, and stone him, that he may die.--1 Kings 21:10

UUggg...Adultery bad...rape victims too...

If a damsel that is a virgin be betrothed unto an husband, and a man find her in the city, and lie with her; Then ye shall bring them both out unto the gate of that city, and ye shall stone them with stones that they die; the damsel, because she cried not, being in the city.--Deuteronomy 22:23-24

My Grandmother told me that there was a passage in the bible that says, "It is better to spill your seed in the belly of a whore, than to spill it on the ground." So, I tried both and the bible's right! It's way better. That's one of the reasons they call it the good book. I'd imagine a lot of you are worried about that one.

And, hey, speaking of that...

If your hand causes you to sin, cut it off. It is better for you to enter into life maimed, rather than having two hands, to go to hell, into the fire that shall never be quenched. --Mark 9:43

Any adopted kids? From another marriage? Unholy unions?...better leave the kids at home

One of illegitimate birth shall not enter the congregation of the Lord--Deuteronomy 23:2

And, do God a favor...shut that ***** up...

Women should be silent in the churches, for they are not permitted to speak, but should be submissive, as the law also says--1 Corinthians 14:34

I've noticed as women get older, especially after marriage, they tend to opt for convenience of style in the grooming department but if your female septagenarian doesn't look like Saruman you'd better bind her feet.

Judge for yourselves: Is it proper for a woman to pray to God with her head uncovered? Does not even nature itself teach you that if a man has long hair it is a disgrace to him, but that if a woman has long hair, it is her glory? For her hair is given to her as a covering--1 Corinthians 11:13-15

It's a good thing everyone around here has their houses in order or we'd need some relief pitchers.


By the way, most of these particular inserts were culled from a Google search of "Arbitrary Scripture". The rest were from a search for "Fat Hypocrite"

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Ah 'Sticks to quote one of my favourite films "you use your tongue prettier than a twenty dollar whore"...

However your mix of sarcasm and wit is so extreme that I'm often perplexed as to what your actual point is...

I assume when you said "Really?!

Interesting. I did not know that. That, I did not know."

was just sarcasm, since most of us read "The King James Version" of the Bible - which straight up tells anyone that it is a version and hence has been edited by someone (whether King James himself or more likely the particular scholars at the time)...

As for my last part about Jews not taking it all literally: I have a Bible, Quran and Torah that I used to read for comparison of the texts... The Torah began with a narrative from a Rabbi explaining that it is not a book of history, measurement or geography and essentially that the books are not meant to be interpreted literally... I assure you that no similar narrative was in either the Bible or the Quran.

I resemble that last one.

I find it interesting when christians quote from the old testament to justify their bias. The old testament is Jewish law and much of the laws ensured the continuation and purity of the tribes. Did Jesus not come to teach us a new way? Did he not forgive and stop stonings by saying " he without sin may cast the first stone". I think Jesus would find me quite charming as we shared lunch. Remeber who he socialized with when he walked the earth?

The old testaments theme is everyone must get stoned.

Quote:

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Originally Posted by Ajani

Written by men and edited by other men... All with their own agendas and beliefs...

Why is the majority of Jesus' life not written about in the bible? There is a huge gap from about age 12 until the very last few years of his life (around 30)... So are we to believe that he spent all those years just making cabinetry? Other religions have stories about what Jesus did in those missing years... even the Gnostic Gospels have some details about those times...

While I believe in the general teachings of Christ; the simple principle of love your neighbor as yourself... There are too many holes in the bible for me to take it literally... Worse the old testament which is just a rip of the Jewish Torah... Yet ironically, the Jews don't take those books literally, yet so many Christians do...

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Muslims, of course, have the tremendous advantage that the Qur'an had only one author -- God. So there is no question of literal truth, (though perhaps minor issues of interpretation).

The Qur'an is also not burdened with issues of compliation, versions, or translations. (There is only one version of the Qur'an: the original Arabic. There are certainly translations but they are considered paraphrases and not necessarily accurate.)

Quote:

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Originally Posted by JohnMichael

I find it interesting when christians quote from the old testament to justify their bias. The old testament is Jewish law and much of the laws ensured the continuation and purity of the tribes. Did Jesus not come to teach us a new way? Did he not forgive and stop stonings by saying " he without sin may cast the first stone". I think Jesus would find me quite charming as we shared lunch. Remeber who he socialized with when he walked the earth?

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He often spent time with those who would have been called sinners at the time.

Quote:

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Originally Posted by JohnMichael

The old testaments theme is everyone must get stoned.

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Are you suggesting that we all get together for drinks?

Ah, levity...isn't it better than name-calling? Has everyone clicked on my talking dog link yet? Because you can't watch it without smiling...guaranteed!

Quote:

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Originally Posted by ForeverAutumn

Ah, levity...isn't it better than name-calling? Has everyone clicked on my talking dog link yet? Because you can't watch it without smiling...guaranteed!

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I loved it.

Quote:

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Originally Posted by Feanor

Muslims, of course, have the tremendous advantage that the Qur'an had only one author -- God.

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I would have thought the author was Muhammad.

Quote:

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Originally Posted by Feanor

So there is no question of literal truth, (though perhaps minor issues of interpretation).

The Qur'an is also not burdened with issues of compliation, versions, or translations. (There is only one version of the Qur'an: the original Arabic. There are certainly translations but they are considered paraphrases and not necessarily accurate.)

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Even with only 1 author and version it still suffers from matters of interpretation, as persons don't take into account the historical context of the teachings... The teachings of Muhammad are quite different during his early peaceful years versus when he became a 'general' in a war... So many of the violent quotes from the Quran were clearly in reference to action during times of war... Yet extremists use them to justify attrocities at any time...

Quote:

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Originally Posted by Ajani

I would have thought the author was Muhammad.
...

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No, not Muhammad. What happened was that the angel, Gabriel, quoted God (a.k.a. Allah) to Muhammad as God's chosen messenger. (Muhammad was illiterate so he quoted Gabriel to scribes who wrote it down.)

Quote:

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Originally Posted by Ajani

...
Even with only 1 author and version it still suffers from matters of interpretation, as persons don't take into account the historical context of the teachings... The teachings of Muhammad are quite different during his early peaceful years versus when he became a 'general' in a war... So many of the violent quotes from the Quran were clearly in reference to action during times of war... Yet extremists use them to justify attrocities at any time...

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Ah well now, this is where we get into the déjà vu all over again.

In addition to the Qur'an, Muslims believe also rely on the many injunctions, aphorisms, and practices ascribed to Muhammad collectively called the Sunnah, (whence Sunni Muslim). There are thousands of these and not all are considered reliable, but of course people tend to quote the ones they like. Shi'a Muslims use a different set than than the Sunnis.

Ah! religion. :o

Wow, you guys already did what I came here to do. Thanks peeps, now I can eat some breakfast before my next session, instead of spending time here typing out my response.

There is a big problem with applying Levitical law to behavior today. The Levitical laws are known as moral codes that govern Jews, not Christians. If you are not a Jew, you are not bound by those codes. There are other things mentioned in those codes, and if they were applied to folks today, heaven would be a very empty place. Leviticus passages are often cited by ignorant Christians as stating homosexuality is an abomination prohibited by God. The penalty is death, and if applied today, Christians should be calling for the death penalty to punish gays. Why is this not happening? Why does the condemnation remain, but the penalty gone? It's because the law was not meant for today, not meant for Christians, and not worthy of a mention period in today's context. If the law could be applied today, Dolce and Gabbana would be killed for mixing two different fabrics together, the youth pastor at my church would be killed for having tattoo's, and anyone who harvested, cooked, or served crab, lobster or shrimp would be killed as well. This would also mean that Jesus died on the cross for no reason, and there is no way I believe that.

Ignorant Christians like Peabrain also fail to talk about translation errors, which are quite common in the old testament. Abomination in Hebrew is "toebah". In the Hebrew bible this word refers to Idolatry, or practices associated with idolatry. The Canaanites which surrounded the Jews back in that day had a fertility god called Molech. To honor Molech, incest, bestiality, adultery, and homosexual prostitution ceremonies often occurred. So the Levitical law does not address homosexuality at all, but what it does address is idolatrous sexual practices.

Since Peabrain mentions the words of Paul in his ignorant diatribe, let's talk about Paul surroundings. In 1st Corinithians, Paul uses two Greek words a lot in the original translation, Malakoi and Arsenokoitai. These are translated in the King James Version of the bible as "effeminate" and "abusers of themselves with mankind. Neither of these two words addresses "homosexuality", because there is no specific word for homosexuality in the Greek language in those times. Also many Greeks back in those days slept with both men and women, and the words to describe this activity(we call it bi-sexuality) paiderastes, pallakos, kinaidos was unambigous, and never mentioned by Paul. If Paul was addressing homosexuality, he would have specifically used those words.

The word Malakoi means "soft", Arsenokoitai broken down means Koatai "those who have sexual intercourse" and Arseno "male" or "masculine". Both of these words have very ambiguous meanings. Paul would not be using these words if he was talking about homosexuality. To give this some context - Paul traveled to the city of Corinth often. Corinth was a city dominated by the worship of the fertility goddess Venus. Ephesus were Timothy lived was also a city dominated by fertility worship. Paul saw things like incest, meat being offered to idols, tons of prostitution, and women that dressed in suggestive clothing. Clearly Paul was more interested in addressing Idolatry rather than homosexuality.

Lastly, we have to ask ourselves whether Paul was stating his opinion, or a reflection of God's view. Paul often stated his opinion, and the best example would be 1 Corinthians 7:25. In 1 Corinthians 11:14 Paul says it is a shameful thing for a man to have long hair(sorry hippy types), but God nor Jesus state this. Thirdly in 1 Corinthians 14:34-35 he states that women are to remain quiet in the congregation, and it is shameful for them to speak. Do we condemn men with long hair today? No. Do we condemn woman pastors and speakers today? No. When quoting scripture context, time, culture and current events of the time must be considered. Literalist like Peahead fail to do this, and this is why they constantly misquote and misuse the Bible to support their own biases.

Now I know that Peahead is going to say I am not a real Christian because I have stated what I have. I would strongly disagree, but would agree that I am not an ignorant sheeple like Christian he is. Literalist Christians are going to run into a whole lot of problems when trying to convey their views to rational people. My grandmother was one of the smartest loving Christian woman I have ever met. She lived the life she spoke of. She also knew the Bible inside and out, and made sure I did as well. She is nothing like Peabody. She does not condemn, judge, or use the Bible as a weapon to beat others down. She taught me Bible history, and sent me to courses taught by Bible scholars who had no agenda. I learned to always apply cultural and historical context to scripture, and to be aware that translation problems do exist in the King James and many other translations of the original text in its original languages. There are some English words that have no translation in Greek, Arabic or Hebrew, so they cannot be relied on for true meaning when translated.

To Peabody, the Bible is a weapon to be used to beat people that are not like him down. This is not what the Bible should be used for. It should be used for inspiration and example. IMO Peabody is no different than Jimmy Swaggert, Jim Baker, Ted Haggard and Eddie Long, all men that preached hate towards homosexuals, but committed adultery, and engaged in homosexual activities themselves. In the case of Peabody, he is not loving or humble, but attacks people in a bitter revengeful way because that person has exposed his ignorance on something. If he is the example of how Christians should behave, I would rather go to hell.

JM is one of the nicest, kindest persons on this board. He has never attacked anyone vengefully, and I have never read anything he wrote that put another person down. This is more Christian like behavior than Peanut head exhibits, which proves that Peabrain is more talk than action like many of today's Christians are. God is interested in our actions, not our words. In this respect, Peabody is more like the Pharisee, and less example of Christ like actions, all facade with no substance. Boo to that!

If meeting someone face to face from this board is your criteria for legitimacy, then you sure are shallow as heck. I could meet everyone here face to face, and they still would not know anything about me. What makes me legitimate is the information I provide here, and I have provided enough verifiable information to solidify my legitimacy.

By the way peahead, I didn't need to Google this thanks to my grandmother

Quote:

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Originally Posted by Sir Terrence the Terrible

Wow, you guys already did what I came here to do. Thanks peeps, now I can eat some breakfast before my next session, instead of spending time here typing out my response.

There is a big problem with applying Levitical law to behavior today. The Levitical laws are known as moral codes that govern Jews, not Christians. If you are not a Jew, you are not bound by those codes. There are other things mentioned in those codes, and if they were applied to folks today, heaven would be a very empty place. Leviticus passages are often cited by ignorant Christians as stating homosexuality is an abomination prohibited by God. The penalty is death, and if applied today, Christians should be calling for the death penalty to punish gays. Why is this not happening? Why does the condemnation remain, but the penalty gone? It's because the law was not meant for today, not meant for Christians, and not worthy of a mention period in today's context. If the law could be applied today, Dolce and Gabbana would be killed for mixing two different fabrics together, the youth pastor at my church would be killed for having tattoo's, and anyone who harvested, cooked, or served crab, lobster or shrimp would be killed as well. This would also mean that Jesus died on the cross for no reason, and there is no way I believe that.

Ignorant Christians like Peabrain also fail to talk about translation errors, which are quite common in the old testament. Abomination in Hebrew is "toebah". In the Hebrew bible this word refers to Idolatry, or practices associated with idolatry. The Canaanites which surrounded the Jews back in that day had a fertility god called Molech. To honor Molech, incest, bestiality, adultery, and homosexual prostitution ceremonies often occurred. So the Levitical law does not address homosexuality at all, but what it does address is idolatrous sexual practices.

Since Peabrain mentions the words of Paul in his ignorant diatribe, let's talk about Paul surroundings. In 1st Corinithians, Paul uses two Greek words a lot in the original translation, Malakoi and Arsenokoitai. These are translated in the King James Version of the bible as "effeminate" and "abusers of themselves with mankind. Neither of these two words addresses "homosexuality", because there is no specific word for homosexuality in the Greek language in those times. Also many Greeks back in those days slept with both men and women, and the words to describe this activity(we call it bi-sexuality) paiderastes, pallakos, kinaidos was unambigous, and never mentioned by Paul. If Paul was addressing homosexuality, he would have specifically used those words.

The word Malakoi means "soft", Arsenokoitai broken down means Koatai "those who have sexual intercourse" and Arseno "male" or "masculine". Both of these words have very ambiguous meanings. Paul would not be using these words if he was talking about homosexuality. To give this some context - Paul traveled to the city of Corinth often. Corinth was a city dominated by the worship of the fertility goddess Venus. Ephesus were Timothy lived was also a city dominated by fertility worship. Paul saw things like incest, meat being offered to idols, tons of prostitution, and women that dressed in suggestive clothing. Clearly Paul was more interested in addressing Idolatry rather than homosexuality.

Lastly, we have to ask ourselves whether Paul was stating his opinion, or a reflection of God's view. Paul often stated his opinion, and the best example would be 1 Corinthians 7:25. In 1 Corinthians 11:14 Paul says it is a shameful thing for a man to have long hair(sorry hippy types), but God nor Jesus state this. Thirdly in 1 Corinthians 14:34-35 he states that women are to remain quiet in the congregation, and it is shameful for them to speak. Do we condemn men with long hair today? No. Do we condemn woman pastors and speakers today? No. When quoting scripture context, time, culture and current events of the time must be considered. Literalist like Peahead fail to do this, and this is why they constantly misquote and misuse the Bible to support their own biases.

Now I know that Peahead is going to say I am not a real Christian because I have stated what I have. I would strongly disagree, but would agree that I am not an ignorant sheeple like Christian he is. Literalist Christians are going to run into a whole lot of problems when trying to convey their views to rational people. My grandmother was one of the smartest loving Christian woman I have ever met. She lived the life she spoke of. She also knew the Bible inside and out, and made sure I did as well. She is nothing like Peabody. She does not condemn, judge, or use the Bible as a weapon to beat others down. She taught me Bible history, and sent me to courses taught by Bible scholars who had no agenda. I learned to always apply cultural and historical context to scripture, and to be aware that translation problems do exist in the King James and many other translations of the original text in its original languages. There are some English words that have no translation in Greek, Arabic or Hebrew, so they cannot be relied on for true meaning when translated.

To Peabody, the Bible is a weapon to be used to beat people that are not like him down. This is not what the Bible should be used for. It should be used for inspiration and example. IMO Peabody is no different than Jimmy Swaggert, Jim Baker, Ted Haggard and Eddie Long, all men that preached hate towards homosexuals, but committed adultery, and engaged in homosexual activities themselves. In the case of Peabody, he is not loving or humble, but attacks people in a bitter revengeful way because that person has exposed his ignorance on something. If he is the example of how Christians should behave, I would rather go to hell.

JM is one of the nicest, kindest persons on this board. He has never attacked anyone vengefully, and I have never read anything he wrote that put another person down. This is more Christian like behavior than Peanut head exhibits, which proves that Peabrain is more talk than action like many of today's Christians are. God is interested in our actions, not our words. In this respect, Peabody is more like the Pharisee, and less example of Christ like actions, all facade with no substance. Boo to that!

If meeting someone face to face from this board is your criteria for legitimacy, then you sure are shallow as heck. I could meet everyone here face to face, and they still would not know anything about me. What makes me legitimate is the information I provide here, and I have provided enough verifiable information to solidify my legitimacy.

By the way peahead, I didn't need to Google this thanks to my grandmother

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I thought you said that you were going to skip the typing and eat some breakfast.:skep:

Quote:

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Originally Posted by GMichael

I thought you said that you were going to skip the typing and eat some breakfast.:skep:

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It took me five minutes to type this up, I knew what I was going to say The Grits and eggs sure was good! :prrr: :ciappa:

Quote:

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Originally Posted by Sir Terrence the Terrible

...

There is a big problem with applying Levitical law to behavior today. The Levitical laws are known as moral codes that govern Jews, not Christians. ...

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Blah, blah, blah. Nice try, Sir T, however these are the sort of post facto rationals that "liberal" Christians concoct to justify current notions of morality.

I say this as an atheist to be sure, but if you don't like the despicable things the Bible says, then just give it up, don't try to rationalize it.

Quote:

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Originally Posted by Feanor

Blah, blah, blah. Nice try, Sir T, however these are the sort of post facto rationals that "liberal" Christians concoct to justify current notions of morality.

I say this as an atheist to be sure, but if you don't like the despicable things the Bible says, then just give it up, don't try to rationalize it.

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I don't believe I addressed whether I liked or disliked what the Bible says. I did address the context that quotations and usage should be applied. As an Atheist, you should have ZERO opinion on all this..none of it is real to you.

Quote:

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Originally Posted by Sir Terrence the Terrible

As an Atheist, you should have ZERO opinion on all this..none of it is real to you.

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While it may be true that atheists don't believe in god, other people believe it to be real and it affects our lives on a daily basis. So it's hard not to have an opinion.

Just think of all the wars that would not have been fought if all the world were atheists. :thumbsup:

Quote:

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Originally Posted by ForeverAutumn

While it may be true that atheists don't believe in god, other people believe it to be real and it affects our lives on a daily basis. So it's hard not to have an opinion.

Just think of all the wars that would not have been fought if all the world were atheists. :thumbsup:

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People would find another reason to fight. It's in our nature.

Quote:

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Originally Posted by ForeverAutumn

While it may be true that atheists don't believe in god, other people believe it to be real and it affects our lives on a daily basis. So it's hard not to have an opinion.

Just think of all the wars that would not have been fought if all the world were atheists. :thumbsup:

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FA, I do not believe in Budda, have no opinion on it, and it does not effect me at all. I cannot see were ANY belief in God would effect anyone that does not believe in him. What others believe should have no influence on your life at all. I firmly respect the fact that you don't believe in God, but that lack of belief does not effect me at all. I still think you are cool, and that is not going to change just because you don't believe what I believe.

Quote:

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Originally Posted by GMichael

People would find another reason to fight. It's in our nature.

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You got that right! If it is not religion, its race, handicaps, territory, or resources.

Quote:

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Originally Posted by Sir Terrence the Terrible

I don't believe I addressed whether I liked or disliked what the Bible says. I did address the context that quotations and usage should be applied. As an Atheist, you should have ZERO opinion on all this..none of it is real to you.

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Sorry but I have to jump back in here. Just because one does not believe in something that is not visible, tangible, and logical does not mean that they do not have enough education and supporting data to have an opinion of it.

You only believe it to be true but in no way can anyone prove that it is true or real, that is why it is a belief system and not reality as we know it.

As Mark said to me, this is no different than a cable argument except with cables you can see them, touch and feel them, and hear the reproduced sound delivered from them. With religion, you cannot see anything, and you will never know if it was true or real until you are dead and it's too late to change your mind.

So putting the religion debate vs a cable debate, you would say that every person that does not BELIEVE that cables sound different or change the sound from their system has no right to have an opinion about it. Boy I wish that were so.

All of you quoting scripture cannot prove in any way what happened then, what was said back then, whether the truth has been changed, skewed, translated properly or that any of it is anything more than just a belief that it's true. God did not write the bible and what is quoted in red as Jesus actual words is pure speculation and again will never be proved.

Now if you want to argue that the bible IS the word of god, then everything ever written is the word of god because everyone of us is god experiencing the physical world through man (and woman). We are all one, same spirit, same dna, same everything except individual bodies which just makes things easier for Humans to rationalize.

This debate will have no ending until each one of us dies, in the physical earthy form, and finds out whether we go back to the all knowing spirit, or rot with the worms 6 feet under.

Quote:

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Originally Posted by Sir Terrence the Terrible

FA, I do not believe in Budda, have no opinion on it, and it does not effect me at all. I cannot see were ANY belief in God would effect anyone that does not believe in him.

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It's not the actual 'believe or don't believe' that affects me. It's the actions that people take based on those beliefs. Prejudice against homosexuals, people trying to take away my right to have an abortion, and reference to God in my national anthem as a few examples. Those things affect me whether or not I believe in God. So I have an opinion.

Quote:

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Originally Posted by ForeverAutumn

It's not the actual 'believe or don't believe' that affects me. It's the actions that people take based on those beliefs. Prejudice against homosexuals, people trying to take away my right to have an abortion, and reference to God in my national anthem as a few examples. Those things affect me whether or not I believe in God. So I have an opinion.

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I stopped saying The Pledge Of Allegiance To The Flag in about 4th grade for similar reasons. Again, we are One World under God and he does nothing more for our nation than he does for all others, if he does anything at all.

Quote:

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Originally Posted by Feanor

No, not Muhammad. What happened was that the angel, Gabriel, quoted God (a.k.a. Allah) to Muhammad as God's chosen messenger. (Muhammad was illiterate so he quoted Gabriel to scribes who wrote it down.)

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Oh yes, I totally forgot about that... it just gets better and better... So God told Gabriel, who told Muhammad, who told scribes...

Nothing quite like a game of 'Chinese telephone' to ensure that a message is passed on accurately...

Quote:

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Originally Posted by Hyfi

I stopped saying The Pledge Of Allegiance To The Flag in about 4th grade for similar reasons. Again, we are One World under God and he does nothing more for our nation than he does for all others, if he does anything at all.

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When I was in grade school they still recited The Lord's Prayer every morning. I was raised in a Jewish household where we didn't pray that way. But yet every morning I was made to stand with the class and recite this christian prayer. I did it because not doing it would have made me stand out in the crowd. But I always knew that it was wrong for me...as a Jew then, as an atheist now.

When I sing our national anthem I don't sing "God keep our land glorious and free". I sing, "O Canada, glorious and free". I hope I'm never asked to sing at a hockey or baseball game. :wink5:

Quote:

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Originally Posted by Ajani

Oh yes, I totally forgot about that... it just gets better and better... So God told Gabriel, who told Muhammad, who told scribes...

Nothing quite like a game of 'Chinese telephone' to ensure that a message is passed on accurately...

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And all told around a time when sea-serpents, mermaids, and sailing off the end of the world were commonplace.