Islam: Our Partners in Peace...

[JohnMichael]

Having been in a spiritual state during an out of body experience I know there is life after the death of the body. Since I have seen ghosts I know other souls have continued after the death of the body. During my spiritual state I was at peace and had no fears of the physical world. Therefore I believe and know we have a soul.

During my time free of my body I had no sense of a god. Of course that may only come after the death of the body. After being in a spiritual state I began to recognize how many models of god attributed him with many petty human charateristics. The God I think of is beyond human understanding.

I do not believe in prayer since none have ever been answered. If God was a loving and vengeful god lighting bolts should have been delivered. I agree that God put things in motion for those that live but we should never tell children that god will help.

This is what I believe and what I do not. I do not believe in the judeo/christian model of god. I need to think of God as above the human traits he is accused of having. That model of god is truly a reflection of the people who created him.

[Feanor]

....
I'm not criticizing. I'm not questioning or belittling his belief. I'm just curious how people who believe that they are alive because their prayers were answered justify the deaths of others.

No, go ahead and belittle religious belief. While not questioning people's faith might be polite, it doesn't help them in the long run, and sustains superstition. Not questioning things is much of what's wrong with the world.

Good question FA.

I always go by this, God answers all your prayers. The answer is usually NO.
...

The belief that prayers are answered is the effect of confirmation bias. Religion is just another, delusional coping mechanism: get over it.

[Feanor]

Having been in a spiritual state during an out of body experience I know there is life after the death of the body. Since I have seen ghosts I know other souls have continued after the death of the body. During my spiritual state I was at peace and had no fears of the physical world. Therefore I believe and know we have a soul.
...

Out-of-body experience are pretty common and follow a typical pattern. Needless to say there is no substantial evidence that they are anything but brain chemistry.

What bothers me about accounts like your, JM, is that people rely on their "feelings" to tell them what is true, i.e. factual. I utterly reject the notion of "subjective truth". We must continually question everything beginning with ourselves.

What do I believe in? One thing only: skepticism.

[ForeverAutumn]

No, go ahead and belittle religious belief. While not questioning people's faith might be polite, it doesn't help them in the long run, and sustains superstition. Not questioning things is much of what's wrong with the world.

Feanor, you and I may both be atheists but, unlike you, I don't enjoy insulting people who are religious. Everyone has a right to believe what they want. Although I don't agree that there is a God, who am I to judge those who do?

[Feanor]

Feanor, you and I may both be atheists but, unlike you, I don't enjoy insulting people who are religious. Everyone has a right to believe what they want. Although I don't agree that there is a God, who am I to judge those who do?

Were I to believed in pedophilia would it be OK to practice or preach it? If I believe that "belief" is wrong and harmful, should I not say so?

Granted, I have been an excessively candid person all my life -- it took me a long time to figure out this isn't an entirely good thing. It hasn't done me much good or endeared me to people, but I'm too old now to reform very much or even want to.

[Hyfi]

Feanor, you and I may both be atheists but, unlike you, I don't enjoy insulting people who are religious. Everyone has a right to believe what they want. Although I don't agree that there is a God, who am I to judge those who do?

Although insulting others may not be the best thing, Feanor has as much right to tell someone they are crazy or wrong for believing something as much as those who believe tell everyone else we are wrong for not believing. It is insulting both ways and I take just as much offense when I am told that there is only one true religion and if I don't believe it I am going to Hell.

If the believers can tell all non believers we are wrong for not believing, than why can't we tell those who believe that they are wrong for believing? Works both ways. Until all religions, specially Christianity, concede that all religions are different pathways to the same god, and that their way is not the best and only way, this will be an endless debate. There is no right or wrong, but only what gets one through the day. That being said, nobodies beliefs should be forced upon others in any way.

[JohnMichael]

Out-of-body experience are pretty common and follow a typical pattern. Needless to say there is no substantial evidence that they are anything but brain chemistry.

What bothers me about accounts like your, JM, is that people rely on their "feelings" to tell them what is true, i.e. factual. I utterly reject the notion of "subjective truth". We must continually question everything beginning with ourselves.

What do I believe in? One thing only: skepticism.

When I floated up out of my body for the first time and perceived myself on the bed my first emotion was what the hell did I do now. Then the sense of peace settled in to my being. I am glad I am not a skeptic. I would have missed much of the magic of life.

[markw]

Were I to believed in pedophilia would it be OK to practice or preach it? If I believe that "belief" is wrong and harmful, should I not say so?

Granted, I have been an excessively candid person all my life -- it took me a long time to figure out this isn't an entirely good thing. It hasn't done me much good or endeared me to people, but I'm too old now to reform very much or even want to.

Comparing pedophelia to religion is low, even for you.

It's a perfect example of why this site has gone from a thriving community a few years ago to a small, incestious few that get their jollies attacking religion.

[Hyfi]

It's a perfect example of why this site has gone from a thriving community a few years ago to a small, incestious few that get their jollies attacking religion.

Thats bull! This place died the first week after they upgraded to Vb and that was years ago.

Also, this out of the way Steel Cage forum was created for these types of off topic conversations.

And what about the jollies that the believers get telling the rest how wrong they are for having no religion or the wrong religion? That part is ok, right?

[markw]

Thats bull! This place died the first week after they upgraded to Vb and that was years ago.

Also, this out of the way Steel Cage forum was created for these types of off topic conversations.

And what about the jollies that the believers get telling the rest how wrong they are for having no religion or the wrong religion? That part is ok, right?

So, who is proselytising here? All I ever see is athiests glad-handing each other.

[Hyfi]

So, who is proselytising here? All I ever see is athiests glad-handing each other.

Maybe you should go back and read the whole thread. You will find several claims from MrP as to the 4 gospels contradicting each other and his justification of it. But in reality, neither of the 4 were even in the place and circumstances that they write about and go by here say alone.

If you have some backing data as to why you are right and others are wrong, post it. You don't because there is nothing d4rfinative either way, it's all faith or skepticism.

[markw]

Maybe you should go back and read the whole thread. You will find several claims from MrP as to the 4 gospels contradicting each other and his justification of it. But in reality, neither of the 4 were even in the place and circumstances that they write about and go by here say alone.

If you have some backing data as to why you are right and others are wrong, post it. You don't because there is nothing d4rfinative either way, it's all faith or skepticism.

One person? Did he force it down your throats or was it in response to questions?

...big difference.

Now, as for the religion bashing, that starts of it's own free will, over and over. Like you said, re-read this thread.

If it wasn't for that and SVI, this place would be a morgue. I hopw the owners are proud.

[JohnMichael]

I can only speak for myself when I say I think it is easy to bash religion when I see fundamentalism of any religion as a source of many problems in the world today. From suicide bombers to murdering doctors for performing abortions. I am very troubled by those who try to force their beliefs on me by passing laws that restrict my right to marry. I do not like what many churches teach about me. Some churches still teach that you can be forgiven for killing a man but straight to hell for loving one. Where is the love in those teachings. I could go on about the negative impact organized religion has had on my life but I will spare you.

[ForeverAutumn]

If the believers can tell all non believers we are wrong for not believing, than why can't we tell those who believe that they are wrong for believing? Works both ways.

I agree. But that's not what Feanor was suggesting. He was suggesting that I belittle someone for their beliefs, which is something that I would never do. I can disagree with someone without feeling the need to put them down. Is it being polite as he suggests? No, I think it's being tolerant. It's the realization that there are many different beliefs out there and although I don't see eye-to-eye with Mr. Peabody (for example) on this topic, he has no less right to his beliefs than I have to mine. That's the beauty of being human and having the ability to think for ourselves and form our own opinions.

As for my original post about the tornado, I wanted it to be clear to those who I was asking the question of that I was not trying to put them down and start an argument but, honestly, wanted to know what they thought. As I've said before, in spite of my atheism I find the religious train of thought interesting and I try to understand it, even if I don't subscribe to it.

[ForeverAutumn]

No, go ahead and belittle religious belief. While not questioning people's faith might be polite, it doesn't help them in the long run, and sustains superstition. Not questioning things is much of what's wrong with the world.

See my response to Hyfi. I will not put someone down over religion. And I am questioning things. My tornado related post was a question. So, I'm really not sure what you're going on about or why you responded to me at all since you weren't doing so to answer my question.

[markw]

I can only speak for myself when I say I think it is easy to bash religion when I see fundamentalism of any religion as a source of many problems in the world today. From suicide bombers to murdering doctors for performing abortions. I am very troubled by those who try to force their beliefs on me by passing laws that restrict my right to marry. I do not like what many churches teach about me. Some churches still teach that you can be forgiven for killing a man but straight to hell for loving one. Where is the love in those teachings. I could go on about the negative impact organized religion has had on my life but I will spare you.

You don't have to spare me. I don't judge, but I do have strong feelings about some things. As for marriage, this is an institution that has gone on in it's current form since the beginning of time and, if history is any indication, it's been quite successful in preserving the species. I really don't see any cause to change it. Already legal ramifications are starting to be seen here.

As for nuts bombing abortion clinics, how many can you count? I'll bet there are more pedophile/homosexual priests abusing children, not to mention prison rape. Don't even get me started on NAMBLA.

As for homosexuals in society, have at it but don't try to convince me, or my children that it's normal. It's an aberration of nature, nothing more, and should be accepted as such.

As for your going to hell for your preferences, that's between you and your god, nobody else. Take it up with him/her/whatever. But, if you don't believe in one, unless the local townsfolk attack your castle with pitchforks and torches, why should what others believe bother you? Remember, sticks and stones...

[JohnMichael]

Mark thanks for hitting a new low in your defense of religion. You proved my point so well. Oh and if you care to be educated homosexuals are not pedophiles. Homo's are men who date other men and pedophiles like children who have not started puberty. Most pedophiles are straight and are not concerned about the gender of the child just that they are truly innocent. As far as priests are concerned they certainly are not the only religious group molesting children. As far as NAMBLA being brought into this I now know you for what you are.

[markw]

Mark thanks for hitting a new low in your defense of religion. You proved my point so well. Oh and if you care to be educated homosexuals are not pedophiles. Homo's are men who date other men and pedophiles like children who have not started puberty. Most pedophiles are straight and are not concerned about the gender of the child just that they are truly innocent. As far as priests are concerned they certainly are not the only religious group molesting children. As far as NAMBLA being brought into this I now know you for what you are.

You chose to involve the outliers, not I. Bringing NAMBLA into the mix is no different than your bringing in the few nut-jobs that took it upon themselves to bomb abortion clinics.

As for "not only priests molesting children" what the hell does that have to do with anything? Any people that abuse children should meet an untimely death, doncha think?

[Hyfi]

You don't have to spare me. I don't judge, but I do have strong feelings about some things.

We all have strong feelings about politics and religion

It's a perfect example of why this site has gone from a thriving community a few years ago to a small, incestious few that get their jollies attacking religion.

That sounds like judgment. It is OK that Christians have traveled the world telling everyone that their way is the only way and if you don't change you will be judged. But when a handful of people question it and press for more than "you either believe it all or you don't really believe, they are an insestious group of people.

[markw]

We all have strong feelings about politics and religion

Which is why most real audio sites that aren't begging for traffic keep them off limits.

That sounds like judgment. It is OK that Christians have traveled the world telling everyone that their way is the only way and if you don't change you will be judged.

Unless they are the ones doing the judging and passing the sentence why should you care? If they are wrong and there is no God, you have no worries, do you?

But when a handful of people question it and press for more than "you either believe it all or you don't really believe, they are an insestious group of people.

Questioning is one thing. Downright insulting it, like comparing it to pedophilia,i s quite another, doncha think? The fact nobody here sees this is quite telling.

And, as logic should dictate, something that is faith-based cannot be expected to provide black/white answers.

If you want to attack faith-based things, stick to cables and interconnects, which seem to be immune from requiring scientific proof in this hobby.

[Sir Terrence the Terrible]

You don't have to spare me. I don't judge, but I do have strong feelings about some things. As for marriage, this is an institution that has gone on in it's current form since the beginning of time and, if history is any indication, it's been quite successful in preserving the species. I really don't see any cause to change it. Already legal ramifications are starting to be seen here.

Mark, I have stayed clear of this argument, but your Neanderthal like perspective is pretty troubling. Marriage has been going on since the beginning of time, but so has rape, racism, and several other things. Considering the fact that the divorce rate sit firmly at 50%, one has to doubt whether this model is all that successful. All of my siblings have gone through a divorce, and I am the only one that didn't. We have 6 billion folks on this planet, so procreation has done its job, and is pretty much through as an excuse for keep things "as it is". Straight folks have done wonderful things with marriage(turns sarcasm button off). The institution is truly in a state of dysfunction, and at this point, it is not a beacon of light you are trying to make it.

There are legal ramifications in any divorce, so that is a flimsy excuse for not allowing same sex marriage.

As for nuts bombing abortion clinics, how many can you count? I'll bet there are more pedophile/homosexual priests abusing children, not to mention prison rape. Don't even get me started on NAMBLA.

If even one person dies from a abortion clinic bombing, that is too many. Most prison rapes are done by those who consider themselves straight in society. Rape in prison is not about sexuality, it is about control. Unfortunately gays are victims of prison rapes far more than the are perpetrators.

As for homosexuals in society, have at it but don't try to convince me, or my children that it's normal. It's an aberration of nature, nothing more, and should be accepted as such.

If it is such an aberration of nature, then why can you find it in nature so much? How many gays have to be created by God(man is his creation) and put on this earth before it becomes acceptable? There are millions of gays all over the world, and that is a lot of aberrations - is nature becoming dysfunctional? More and more are being born each day, so why does God let this happen if it is an aberration? Nobody on this planet who is gay wants to waste their time trying to convince you of anything, they have their lives to live.

Since you are not God, no one really has to accept anything just because you state it. Your proclamations are just your opinion, and that should be taken with a bag of salt. No where in the Bible does God or Jesus mention anything about homosexuality, so this is nothing more than the opinion of man, or laws created by man to control man.

As for your going to hell for your preferences, that's between you and your god, nobody else. Take it up with him/her/whatever. But, if you don't believe in one, unless the local townsfolk attack your castle with pitchforks and torches, why should what others believe bother you? Remember, sticks and stones...

This I agree with.

[Ajani]

Which is why most real audio sites that aren't begging for traffic keep them off limits.

A fair point.. Religious discussions probably should be off limits as they lead to heated and usually nasty discussions...

Questioning is one thing. Downright insulting it, like comparing it to pedophilia,i s quite another, doncha think? The fact nobody here sees this is quite telling.

So you lift the quality of the discussion by calling the persons who question religion 'incestuous'? I just don't see the rationale...

Also, you make a very wrong assumption in concluding that no one sees the difference between questioning and the insulting that Feanor chose to do... In fact, FA already made it clear that she disagreed with Feanor...

[Hyfi]

If you want to attack faith-based things, stick to cables and interconnects, which seem to be immune from requiring scientific proof in this hobby.

I did my time with you there 12 years ago. Maybe you should stick to Mtrys school of Cables and become one of his disciples again over Audioholics.

[markw]

So you lift the quality of the discussion by calling the persons who question religion 'incestuous'? I just don't see the rationale...

I use that word because it's always the same few that promote this subject.

Also, you make a very wrong assumption in concluding that no one sees the difference between questioning and the insulting that Feanor chose to do... In fact, FA already made it clear that she disagreed with Feanor...

And, as it now stands, she's the only one who sees it as wrong. I truly give her credit for that. As for the others, well, see for yourself.

[markw]

Mark, I have stayed clear of this argument, but your Neanderthal like perspective is pretty troubling. Marriage has been going on since the beginning of time, but so has rape, racism, and several other things. Considering the fact that the divorce rate sit firmly at 50%, one has to doubt whether this model is all that successful. All of my siblings have gone through a divorce, and I am the only one that didn't. We have 6 billion folks on this planet, so procreation has done its job, and is pretty much through as an excuse for keep things "as it is". Straight folks have done wonderful things with marriage(turns sarcasm button off). The institution is truly in a state of dysfunction, and at this point, it is not a beacon of light you are trying to make it.

Marriage is a commitment that the couple needs to work at. It ain't always easy. It sometimes takes work, lots of it, and a lack of selfishness on both parts. That doesn't mean the institution is flawed, just that those involved aren't treating it with the respect that's due and are opting for the easy way out when it becomes too much work.

[here are legal ramifications in any divorce, so that is a flimsy excuse for not allowing same sex marriage.

True, but the "same sex" thing has caused confusion in several states already.

If even one person dies from a abortion clinic bombing, that is too many.

Seriously Terry ,you want to try to blame all religions for this? C'mon, I gave you more ctedit than that.

Most prison rapes are done by those who consider themselves straight in society. Rape in prison is not about sexuality, it is about control. Unfortunately gays are victims of prison rapes far more than the are perpetrators.

Whatever you say. I'd say it's ore to do with using what one has available.

If it is such an aberration of nature, then why can you find it in nature so much? How many gays have to be created by God(man is his creation) and put on this earth before it becomes acceptable?

When they are capable of reproducing on their own.

There are millions of gays all over the world, and that is a lot of aberrations - is nature becoming dysfunctional? More and more are being born each day, so why does God let this happen if it is an aberration? Nobody on this planet who is gay wants to waste their time trying to convince you of anything, they have their lives to live.

There's also more incidints of cancer, hepatitis and other healh issues over the past few years. They also perscribe drugs for childrens behavioural problems more and more lately. Are you going to try to tell me that's the new normal?

Since you are not God, no one really has to accept anything just because you state it. Your proclamations are just your opinion, and that should be taken with a bag of salt. No where in the Bible does God or Jesus mention anything about homosexuality, so this is nothing more than the opinion of man, or laws created by man to control man.

I never claim to be God, nor will say he doesn't exist. Nobody has to accept my opinions as the truth, but outside of this collection of social misfits, many do. And, I don't go making fun of others beliefs or actions, either. That's more than I can say about this place.