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  1. #1
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    Talking Help! 20hz to 20khz least amount of $$$

    Can someone give me a suggestion for a full range 2 channel system?

    I am thinking of a sub and bookshelf, or floor models? How about some ideas.

    Room is 20x20 feet and concerning $$$, less is more! Thanks all.

  2. #2
    RGA
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    More to a sound system than specs and measurements. Good bass costs money - deep bass might not but good bass does. And then what about how good the music sounds?

  3. #3
    Loving This kexodusc's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by RGA
    More to a sound system than specs and measurements. Good bass costs money - deep bass might not but good bass does. And then what about how good the music sounds?
    I think what RGA's trying to say is...how much $$$ are you budgeting for this purchase?

  4. #4
    Suspended topspeed's Avatar
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    While you're answering RGA's and KC's questions, how about telling us what you listen to, what you are going to be driving them with, any placement issues, etc. The more info, the better.

  5. #5
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    More information would be helpful. However, I'll make an initial recommendation on a bargain priced 20 Hz to 20 KHz speaker system for music listening to get the discussion rolling.

    Get a pair of Ascend Acoustics CBM-170 bookshelf speakers for $328 plus shipping. The frequency response for the CBM-170 is shown here.

    Add an SVS PB10-ISD subwoofer for $399 plus shipping. The frequency response for the PB10-ISD is shown here.

    Total cost for all three: around $800.

    Assumptions: I assume that you do not plan to listen to music at rock concert volume levels. I also assume that your receiver or preamp has a subwoofer output jack since the PB10-ISD has no internal crossover.
    Last edited by bargainseeker; 09-29-2004 at 11:32 AM.

  6. #6
    My custom user title This Guy's Avatar
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    If you are just listening to music on this, why do you need it to go down to 20 hz? You only need to go this low is if you listen to pipe organ music. 30-40 hz would be fine with just about every other genre.

  7. #7
    RGA
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    Quote Originally Posted by This Guy
    If you are just listening to music on this, why do you need it to go down to 20 hz? You only need to go this low is if you listen to pipe organ music. 30-40 hz would be fine with just about every other genre.
    I disagree with this - my speaker goes down to 25hz and the E version goes down to 12hz usuable 17hz-6db. The bass envelope is noticable on a lot of recording and not just pipe organ - which is why so many speakers rated to around 35hz in the form of a standmount sound very much hackled off compared to my Wharfedales rated at 40hz.

    Then there speakers from Totem that on the spec sheet get very close to my J's but sound severely lacking in overtones in the deep bass registers even into basic rock recordings. How does it do at 90db versus 60db kinda deal. And the J bass distortion is extremely low under 1% so it's not a box noise adding bass.

    This why i have a problem with buying off a spec sheet or even the rudamentary measurements abound - there is bass depth but how does the bass sound. I have compared big floorstanders to my speakers that have bass but it sounds leaden like a a thuddy bass. I'm sure the spec doesn't lie when it says 30hz but either of my speakers sound more tuneful. So few speakers do this so maybe not many understand what is really meant by Tuneful bass response in rather soft subjective "listening" experience terms. This may also be a reason that some reviewers who compared the E's bass ability with organ music in terms of tunefullness while the other speaker tested had MORE deep bass power in terms of attack but lacked the musicality tunefull nimbleness in the lower registers.

    Granted if yyou just want rock a speaker that can play 40hz with sizeable force should be enough for most people. My Wharfedales would be perfect for fans of rock with a Fostex(or oem) ring horn tweeter and 10 inch woofer big front port and work reasonably well in corners or anywhere really, and crossover controls for the treble and midrange. They can play to about 119db with astonishing bass impact. They are a bit sloppier - a mid bass rise no doubt that my J doesn't have. But that rise can sound very enjoyable for rock.

  8. #8
    My custom user title This Guy's Avatar
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    My speakers are rated to go down to 30 hz, and they do. My sub only goes down to 35 hz, but the sub plays the llower frequencies just so much cleaner and louder. If I play them full range they just don't sound as good. I know what you're talking about and I agree. I personally haven't listened to any full range speakers so I wouldn't really know what that would sound like. I was more referencing him in getting a stand mount that can get down to about 80 hz, and just get a nice sealed sub that can go from there and rolls off at about 35-30 hz. It would be fairly inexpensive and sound nice (obviously only if he gets equpiment he likes).

  9. #9
    M.P.S.E /AES/SMPTE member Sir Terrence the Terrible's Avatar
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    I know of no "inexpensive" full range speakers that have clean output to 20hz. The ones that do offer clean 20hz bass, cost a bundle(mine where about approx$ 2200 per pair) I think bargainseeker has the best solution for getting 20-20khz at a reasonable price.

    Clean deep bass requires either agressive equalization, or a large box. Agressive equalization require an extremely durable driver with a long stroke. Not cheap. 70% of a speaker price comes from the box itself. The larger the box, the more expensive the speaker. The most economical way of getting full range performance lies in a quality sub sat system
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  10. #10
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    Most likely will power with 45wpc(have not picked a system)

    Have probably $2000, I listen to R&B, Jazz, Metal, Rap, Live music. Just a system that reproduces the dynamic range at a not overly-loud level. I like my sound about 90decibels. Room is open and ceiling is 9feet high. I sit about 10 feet average from front. This will be used for a HT later on.

    I am interested in the ascends. The chart shows roll off about 10khz tho.

  11. #11
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    think 45wpc is enough volume?

    Let me clarify my music preference: #1.Slayer/Pantera style Metal #2.Norah Jones/Sarah Brightman voice highs #3.Drum&Bass/Rap bass dependent. In order pretty much matter of importance.

    With both products having a 30+ day guarantee, I might try ascend with a SVS.

    Any advantages of tube vs box, from actual owners? I am looking at the 39 inch tube.

    Thanks much
    Last edited by KRiTiKaL; 09-29-2004 at 03:14 PM.

  12. #12
    RGA
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    Here is a rule of thumb - if you can hear male vocals out of your sub you have bad bass period end of discussion - and I have heard awefully expensive ones do that. hen people will talk about where they're crossed over - but IMO this should not even be an option.

    The problem with most full range speakers is that when you find a good spot for the midrange and treble you might get boomy bass. I think the main reason Audio Note is able to succeed at getting tremendous bass from relatively small cabinets and one 8inch driver is that they take into account the rear and side walls as well as the floor bounce and will get very similar results from room to room - presuming your room has 2 corners in it. Most do. But again Sir Terrance notes that it's not cheap.

    Now i have heard some very deep(or 35hz very powerful and very loud) subs from Paradigm which whenever I build my home theater(very low priority for me) I would be extremely happy with and only cost about $800.00Cdn. Musically It wouldn't cut it for me.

    I had that option of going with a $1k sub and my Standmounts which were good to 36hz. Or Spend that $1k and get a bigger standmount which is good 25hz. There was no doubt that the latter option was and is the better option musically. Having bass come from a seeming front source point source is indiscribably better in my view. Even big floorstanders with similar bass depth sound as though the bass is thudding from the floorboards. Imaine 25hz coming from ~2.5feet off the ground - projecting up where the stage is. Non Directional subs my ass.

  13. #13
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    Talking

    Just tried a search for this and I remember reading about it some where. What is a good male voice(500hz < ?) to do a test?

    Audio Note seems very pricey, but as was stated "its not cheap". I believe that to a point but when(not in your case) does the cash flow stop on speakers? I mean above $10k for a pair of speakers. I am a carpenter and making a nice cabinet is not hard for even the novice. So basically it is all the components you are buying? I read in another post $1million for some speakers. KRIKEY! Its prob me though because I am tight with money. I love good sounds no matter.

  14. #14
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    Quote Originally Posted by KRiTiKaL
    Most likely will power with 45wpc(have not picked a system)

    Have probably $2000, I listen to R&B, Jazz, Metal, Rap, Live music. Just a system that reproduces the dynamic range at a not overly-loud level. I like my sound about 90decibels. Room is open and ceiling is 9feet high. I sit about 10 feet average from front. This will be used for a HT later on.

    I am interested in the ascends. The chart shows roll off about 10khz tho.
    It takes some practice to read these frequency response charts. The on-axis chart provided by Ascend Acoustics shows the CBM-170 speakers flat to 18KHz and down about 3dB at 20KHz. For independent measurements of the CBM-170s see the Soundstage measurements of the CBM-170. In particular, see Chart 2 for the frequency response within a +/- 15 degree listening window. If properly positioned and adjusted, the combination of the SVS PB10-ISD and Ascend Acoustics CBM-170s should give you 18Hz - 20KHz +/- 3dB. Please note: I do not recommend any other of the Ascend Acoustics speakers.

    I am not sure if your $2000 budget is for speakers alone or for speakers + receiver/preamp/amp. If the $2000 is for speakers alone, you may want to consider upgrading the subwoofer and getting 5 (or 6 or 7) CBM-170s for a complete home theater system. Alternatively, you could get two even higher quality bookshelf monitor speakers with an upgraded subwoofer. At $2000, you are also in the low end of a pair of floor standing speakers that are capable of full range reproduction without a subwoofer.

    45 watt per channel should be more than adequate for powering efficient speakers such as the CBM-170s for music listening under the conditions you specify. However, I am not so sure that it will be adequate for home theater use. Many movies have greater dynamic range than music. For this application, you may want to get more power per channel.

  15. #15
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    Sub-sat

    Quote Originally Posted by KRiTiKaL
    Most likely will power with 45wpc(have not picked a system)

    Have probably $2000, I listen to R&B, Jazz, Metal, Rap, Live music. Just a system that reproduces the dynamic range at a not overly-loud level. I like my sound about 90decibels. Room is open and ceiling is 9feet high. I sit about 10 feet average from front. This will be used for a HT later on.

    I am interested in the ascends. The chart shows roll off about 10khz tho.
    Almost any good speaker will go up to 20 kHz or above, and really, above 15 kHz is of very little importance. To get deep bass at a reasonable cost requires a subwoofer. So you could probably get a subwoofer from Hsu or SVS with useful bass to 20 Hz, a pair of bookshelf speakers or small towers, a receiver and a DVD player (they play CDs, too!) and stay within 2 grand.

    You don't specify which Ascend Acoustics speaker you have in mind. Anyway, I looked up the review of the Ascend Acoustics CBM-170 on Soundstage and it does go up to 20 kHz--no sign of a roll off there. Is there on some other model? It doesn't do too much below about 70 Hz, but should do well with a subwoofer as long as you don't want to play it too, too loud. Its sensitivity is measured as 89 dB by the NRC but its impedance in the upper bass looks to be about 4 ohms, so you would want a receiver that will drive 4 ohm speakers.

    http://www.soundstage.com/revequip/a...ics_cbm170.htm

    Somewhat less sensitive (87 dB) is the Energy Connoisseur C-3, which seems to have useful bass to about 40 Hz. It costs somewhat more, too, but you still should be able to fit it in a 2 grand system. I have heard it and it is quite nice.

    http://www.soundstage.com/revequip/energy_c3.htm

    As for priorities, I think it is important to find main speakers you really like than to have deep bass. Listen to as many good speakers as is practical. They are what put out most of the sound. If the main speakers you like take up too much of the budget, you might have to compromise on getting good bass down to 20 Hz, or put it off until later.

    Do you have any idea how loud 90 dBa really is? It's pretty loud. Get yourself a Radio Shack Sound Pressure Level Meter, Cat. No. 33-2050 (thats the preferred analog version) to see. It's also useful to keep your listening levels safe so as not to damage your hearing, and is also useful for setting up a subwoofer or a home theatre system.
    "Opposition brings concord. Out of discord comes the fairest harmony."
    ------Heraclitus of Ephesis (fl. 504-500 BC), trans. Wheelwright.

  16. #16
    Silence of the spam Site Moderator Geoffcin's Avatar
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    20hz-20khz isn't all it's cracked up to be.

    Quote Originally Posted by KRiTiKaL
    Can someone give me a suggestion for a full range 2 channel system?

    I am thinking of a sub and bookshelf, or floor models? How about some ideas.

    Room is 20x20 feet and concerning $$$, less is more! Thanks all.
    My Audio system goes even further, more like 14hz-40khz, and that's not anything that makes it "better" in any way. The thing that makes it better is that I like it, therefore it's "better" for me. Great speakers don't always have to go down into the 20's. Fully 95% of all music has NO audible content that low. If you've got 2k to spend on your speaker system then you have a LOT of choices available to you. The best advise I can give to you is go out and audition some speakers. Hit Magnepan.com and see who's your local dealer. You owe it to yourself to at least hear them.
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  17. #17
    Forum Regular Woochifer's Avatar
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    My question to you is why you're trying to find a full range speaker? Most subwoofers don't go down to 20 Hz, most music notes don't come close to hitting that range, and even explosions in action pics don't always go that low. It's a LOT of expense to try and find a speaker that can do the full range and do it well.

    Also, don't get too wound up on the measurements and specs. Even if a speaker measures perfectly under lab conditions, it will sound far from perfect once you stick it inside a typical living room. Once the sounds go below about 200 Hz, they are VERY heavily influenced by the room acoustics. The variation in room acoustics is the reason why it's almost pointless to do subwoofer comparisons in a dealer's demo room.

    As you go lower into the bass range, the room dimensions, the listening position, and the placement play an increasingly significant role in how the bass sounds. Wave interactions can create huge peaks that result in booming headsplitting bass or they can cancel each other out and make the bass sound hollow and thin. If you have the wrong combination, it will not matter how well a speaker or speaker/sub combination measures up on paper -- those room effects will affect ALL speakers unless you change the positioning or use equalization. The subwoofer's main advantage is that you can move it to where the bass response sounds fullest and most even, and that spot within the room is rarely where the sound is best for the main speakers.

    IMO, go with the main speakers that sound best to you, and try them out at home before you buy. Don't let the bass drive your decision since it's really the midrange where most of the sounds will come from. If you want more bass, then go with the subwoofer option and learn about how to properly set it up.

  18. #18
    Forum Regular Woochifer's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by RGA
    Here is a rule of thumb - if you can hear male vocals out of your sub you have bad bass period end of discussion - and I have heard awefully expensive ones do that. hen people will talk about where they're crossed over - but IMO this should not even be an option.
    Here's the reality: if you're hearing male vocals out of the sub, you either have it setup incorrectly or you bought something from Bose!

    The crossover is one of the key points with integrating a subwoofer with the mains. If a subwoofer's reproducing male vocals, it's because that part of the frequency range is getting sent to the driver. Doesn't matter how good the subwoofer is, if it's in the signal and no crossover is used, the subwoofer will reproduce it. The typical frequency response of a decent subwoofer driver goes well above 500 Hz, and if you provide no crossover at the top end, it will playback everything to that point. If you don't want to hear male vocals, you set the crossover below that frequency.

    Quote Originally Posted by RGA
    The problem with most full range speakers is that when you find a good spot for the midrange and treble you might get boomy bass. I think the main reason Audio Note is able to succeed at getting tremendous bass from relatively small cabinets and one 8inch driver is that they take into account the rear and side walls as well as the floor bounce and will get very similar results from room to room - presuming your room has 2 corners in it. Most do. But again Sir Terrance notes that it's not cheap.
    The factor that you're ignoring is that the corner reinforcement will vary depending on the distance to the listening position and the dimensions of the walls. Sure, those ANs can go low in-room with the right combination of corner reinforcement and relative distance, but the quality of the bass will vary widely by the room. It doesn't matter how good you think AN's design is, it's not immune from the laws of physics and formation of standing waves.

    Quote Originally Posted by RGA
    I had that option of going with a $1k sub and my Standmounts which were good to 36hz. Or Spend that $1k and get a bigger standmount which is good 25hz. There was no doubt that the latter option was and is the better option musically. Having bass come from a seeming front source point source is indiscribably better in my view. Even big floorstanders with similar bass depth sound as though the bass is thudding from the floorboards. Imaine 25hz coming from ~2.5feet off the ground - projecting up where the stage is. Non Directional subs my ass.
    Going with a subwoofer allows you to optimize the positioning for the best quality bass within a given room. Subwoofers have a disadvantage in that the proper placement for tonal accuracy might also result in problems with the time domain coherency. Newer receivers and processors now integrate the delay timing into the bass management as well. Based on my experience with delay timing in the main and surround speaker channels, this can make a huge difference in making the overall sound more cohesive.

    And when you're describing bass as nondirectional, how do you know that those sounds emanate from the 25 Hz range? Even a deep explosion from an action pic will typically include some sounds that go into the lower midrange. Based on your first comment, if you're not even using a crossover to cut off the directional frequencies above 80 Hz, then OF COURSE the subwoofer will sound directional! Plus, you need to account for room induced peaking and frequency cancellations in your setup and placement. If everything is done correctly, then the bass can be VERY well integrated with the mains and sound almost completely nondirectional. The newer bass management designs are now incorporating crossover frequencies of 40 and 60 Hz into their designs. Coupled with proper delay settings, placement, and equalization, the bass quality in that kind of setup can well exceed that from a full range speaker and cost a lot less.

  19. #19
    Crackhead Extraordinaire Dusty Chalk's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by topspeed
    While you're answering RGA's and KC's questions, how about telling us what you listen to, what you are going to be driving them with, any placement issues, etc. The more info, the better.
    I think he already mentioned one:
    Quote Originally Posted by KRiTiKaL
    Can someone give me a suggestion for a full range 2 channel system?

    I am thinking of a sub and bookshelf, or floor models? How about some ideas.

    Room is 20x20 feet and concerning $$$, less is more! Thanks all.
    Dude, you're screwed. The first thing I'm going to tell you is install some serious bass dampening, especially at whatever node is reinforced at 20 feet. (Anyone?...anyone?...Williams? Smith?...Anyone? 28 Hz.)
    Eschew fascism.
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  20. #20
    RGA
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    Quote Originally Posted by KRiTiKaL
    Just tried a search for this and I remember reading about it some where. What is a good male voice(500hz < ?) to do a test?

    Audio Note seems very pricey, but as was stated "its not cheap". I believe that to a point but when(not in your case) does the cash flow stop on speakers? I mean above $10k for a pair of speakers. I am a carpenter and making a nice cabinet is not hard for even the novice. So basically it is all the components you are buying? I read in another post $1million for some speakers. KRIKEY! Its prob me though because I am tight with money. I love good sounds no matter.
    You don't have to spend this much money and I hope my post was not sounding too ludditic(is that a word ). Money does not equal quality though you need some and Audio Note is not really expensive compared to most. Sure they make the ridiculous and IMO indefensibly priced $99,000 Speaker that is the exact same box as their $4,000.00 model. So there is no justification for the extra $95,000.00 no matter how much silver is being used. - if the whole damn box was filled with solid top of the line silver it still probably wouldn't come near 100K. But then there is no more than $5.00 worth of paint in a Picaso either. The market bares it because that particular market has heard the competition at that kind of price range and Audio Note does sell them. That 1 million dollar Karma speaker includes the room. Basiclaly they are building you a room onto your house which is specifically designed acoustically for those speakers (well so say they anyway)

    My point was not really to attack subs - I am not partial to the sound of sub/satelite systems I have no problem with subs for home theater where your accuracy cue for a car bomb exploding really has no reference. I can't say for sure what a T-Rex stomping on car really sounds like - I can say that a cello should sound like one cohesive instrument because i know what a cello should sound like but a T-Rex or doctored multi channel effects I can't say. There is no reference point for such things. So, I don't bother with that I bother with the cello, piano, organ and even a synthezier which both certainly go to 20hz and below.

    Everytime you add a step to the chain you create problems and those problems need corrections and those corrections cause other problems. A three way which is what a system using a Subwoofer becomes, is another step back which needs some sort of error correction device to fix the problems. Some people think that current receivers add on decvices and subwoofers work - I don't - no big deal go and listen to some such set-ups versus the AN J or E. You can believe the technological hype or you can go and listen to the J and E versus Say a $2,000 Energy Veritas, B&W, paradigm, PSB, standmount and ANY subwoofer you wish.

    As PatD said most content doesn't really go much beyond 15Khz and most people can't differentiate bass below 40hz - this was why up until not that long ago the frequency range cosidered FULL range was 40hz-15khz. I have seen $199.00Cdn Sony speakers rated 20hz-20khz - means nothing. I have seen subs at pretty high prices that only hit 40hz - they simply play 40hz louder. I don't get the appeal of that. While watching a DVD demo a person put his cup on a table and the thud made me jump 2 feet. Sure it is "COOL" but that is atrocious sound because last time I checked when someone put a cup on a table my house didn't shake. But yes it was cool for a one off demo. Turn the sub volume down and well you realize you don;t need a subwoofer anymore. My Wharfedales went just as deep and play deafeningly loud so why on earth would i want to have the wharfedale's cut the lows for ONE subwoofer to now take over the duty of the woofers in my Wharfedale. I tried it to disasterous effects. I didn't need to worry about buying several devices to set-it up or replace my receiver with one that supposedly does it for you. I just needed two good speakers for 2 channel music. Unfortunately, Wharfedale went under in the early 1990s and have been bought and sold twice since then and are making more budget speakers.

    I am fully aware I'm in the minority on this predominantly A/V forum when it comes to sub integration. But always note the small words like Almost integrates or very closely integrates and otherbsubtle weasal words people use. All that is well and good and for most people - fine but almost counts in horseshoes- almost integrating a piano or cello isn't enough. When a speaker like the J, which is only expensive because a smaller company is making them, can offer better bass than most all 1kCdn subs - all the ones I've heard even up to 2kCdn and do it from one 8 inch woofer. Why?

    By the way if you're a handy sort of person you can build Audio Note speakers - Audio Note is pretty open about what they do - they hide nothing - they tell you the costs of all the materials and drivers and allow people to build a lot of their products. You can purchase a Kit E for quite cheap and basically glue the thing together yourself. and will probably save you 70% retail. Here is a review from a more two channel dedicated forum of a fellow I met at my dealer who had them built for him http://www.audioasylum.com/cgi/m.pl?...70755&review=1

    There is also a dedicated Audio Note kits forum at audioasylum.com -- you can;t beat it because you can listen to the Audio Note E speakers at a dealership to see if you like them or not and if you do you can save money by ordering the Kit and taylor the quality to fit your budget. Audio Note is trying to work out special deals with dealers to have the prices significanlty dropped. Being made in Europe is very costly. http://www.audioasylum.com/forums/au...ekits/bbs.html

    Note I am not suggesting you buy - no matter how good a magazine review is or some fanboy like me touts them you need to LISTEN to as much gear as you possibly can humanly fit into your schedule.

    The E was recently given the Best Buy speaker award in the August issue of Hi-Fi CHoice and this review is of the older E in a particle board box(The new version they like better for value even though the price went up considerably) - definitely you want Ply Wood. No speaker is perfect of course and the new E the reviewer, Paul Messenger, had a few issues with - but he did keep the speaker. In fact they kept the 1992 version as well.
    http://www.hifichoice.co.uk/review_read.asp?ID=475

    This review of the E/D was up against speakers that ALL cost at least double the E's list at the time. The person owns the other designs which are quite formidable and very popular in their own rights. But it gives you an idea how well the E did considering the price. http://www.audionote.co.uk/reviews/s..._17-07-2k1.htm

    Some other experienced Audiophile/reviewers
    http://www.audioasylum.com/cgi/m.pl?...45133&review=1
    http://www.audioasylum.com/cgi/m.pl?...74993&review=1
    http://www.audioasylum.com/cgi/m.pl?...04884&review=1
    http://www.audioasylum.com/cgi/m.pl?...11315&review=1
    http://www.audioasylum.com/cgi/m.pl?...24418&review=1

    I told you I was a fanboy and unashamedly so. I recommend what I would BUY for myself or recommend to my friends. And that is very few products. When I come back from work overseas I will build or buy used and AN E.

    And yes - it's what's inside that counts. Good luck with whatever you choose in the end.

  21. #21
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    RGA, What the hell are you saying now?!?! :D

    I tend to agree with alot of what you're saying here RGA...My main speakers were built with quality Vifa woofers, I usually don't use a sub in my 2-channel system because they are "full range" so to speak and though I have Paradigm sub in my room I do turn on from time to time because there are musical benefits to using a sub for purely musical purposes.
    It does add greater complexity to setup, no question, but when you get there, it's great.

    I think I've mentioned before I have some A/N fanboy relatives...My uncle routinely uses a nice home-brewed sub to fill out the bottom octave even with his AN E's...He cuts the sub off at 40 Hz, where even the E's get a little weak relative their performance at other frequencies...the sound is good, the response is flat, but in his words, the natural musical "impact" is lost when you use the speakers full range...That's the feeling you get in the seat of your pants. That's what a sub should be for IMO. Adding that power to the bottom octave. Every woofer starts to get strained the lower you go...

    Quote Originally Posted by RGA
    My point was not really to attack subs - I am not partial to the sound of sub/satelite systems I have no problem with subs for home theater where your accuracy cue for a car bomb exploding really has no reference. I can't say for sure what a T-Rex stomping on car really sounds like - I can say that a cello should sound like one cohesive instrument because i know what a cello should sound like but a T-Rex or doctored multi channel effects I can't say. There is no reference point for such things. So, I don't bother with that I bother with the cello, piano, organ and even a synthezier which both certainly go to 20hz and below.
    For all the talk you do about "listening", recreating "life-like music" instead of just "Hi-Fi", I really expected more from you. Have you heard a cello? Do yo play Cello? I do...I doubt you'll find any cello anywhere that extends below 58 Hz...unless it's sadly out of tune...I think even grand piano's and Pipe Organs rarely drop below 30 Hz...and quite honestly there would be few passages that would employ notes that low very often. Probably low to mid 40's (Hz) would account for 99% of a piano or organs real world usuage. Kind of diminishes the importance of "full range" speakers.

    Now I have to question, exactly what ARE you listening too???? Are you sure you know?

  22. #22
    Tyler Acoustics Fan drseid's Avatar
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    Based on your $2000 upper limit (I am hoping this is for the speakers alone, otherwise ignore this post), I would go one of two directions...

    For a floorstander recommendation, I would recommend auditioning the Legacy Audio Signature III. Brand new, these speakers are way out of your price range, but on Audiogon, a used pair will most likely sell for just about $2000. These can do 20HZ with good authority, and they are perfect for medium to semi-large rooms. Very good quality drivers are used from Eton, among others. The Sigs have excellent dynamics, and they have a very pleasant midrange. The speakers are pretty darn good looking too in my opinion (your tastes may vary, of course).

    Another way to go if the sub/sat route is more your cup of tea, is to pair some high quality monitors like the Tyler Acoustics Taylo Monitors, with a quality sub. The Taylos offer tremendous bang for the buck, utilizing a SEAS Excel series mid-bass driver (W18E) and the Scanspeak Revelator Tweeter (9900) in each enclosure. These go for $1000-$1200 a pair used on Audiogon including the high quality matching Tyler Model 1 stands.

    You could then pair them to a top quality musical subwoofer like the ACI Titan (formerly called the Titan II). Brand new, the Titan goes for about $1200 direct from ACI, and it is hard to find one used, but if you can find one, the Titan/Titan II is very good quality and it holds it's value well.

    A used pair of Taylos, coupled with a used Titan II/Titan II LE will again set you back pretty much your entire budget, but the combo is a *very* good one that should cover you nicely for the entire frequency range (good bass, as it has already been said does not come cheap). Also, I should mention that the Titan II integrates very well with the Taylos (I, and others have done it with excellent success). Just for reference, Tyler Acoustics is not well known (and only mail order), so there is some risk here (no auditioning of the speakers unless you can find an owner nearby), but as an owner of both the Taylos and Linbrooks (their larger brothers), I, at least, can say that I am glad I took the risk.

    The sub/sat option may be the better way to go if you ever want to look at multi-channel music, or HT. If you are looking for 2 channel only (with no future plans for multi-channel), then the used Signature IIIs may be just what you are looking for.

    Either way, these options may be worth a look...

    Good luck,

    ---Dave

  23. #23
    Forum Regular 46minaudio's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by RGA

    I am fully aware I'm in the minority on this predominantly A/V forum when it comes to sub integration. But always note the small words like Almost integrates or very closely integrates and otherbsubtle weasal words people use. All that is well and good and for most people - fine but almost counts in horseshoes- almost integrating a piano or cello isn't enough. When a speaker like the J, which is only expensive because a smaller company is making them, can offer better bass than most all 1kCdn subs - all the ones I've heard even up to 2kCdn and do it from one 8 inch woofer. Why?
    RGA have you measured your ANs in your room.If so do they integrate perfect, or are they close"as in horseshoes".
    Quote Originally Posted by RGA
    Here is a review from a more two channel dedicated forum of a fellow I met at my dealer who had them built for him http://www.audioasylum.com/cgi/m.pl?...70755&review=1
    Quote Originally Posted by RGA
    I can't stress this enough - DO NOT GO BY REVIEWS


    Quote Originally Posted by RGA
    The E was recently given the Best Buy speaker award in the August issue of Hi-Fi CHoice and this review is of the older E in a particle board box(The new version they like better for value even though the price went up considerably)
    Quote Originally Posted by RGA
    I can't stress this enough - DO NOT GO BY REVIEWS

    Quote Originally Posted by RGA
    This review of the E/D was up against speakers that ALL cost at least double the E's list at the time. The person owns the other designs which are quite formidable and very popular in their own rights. But it gives you an idea how well the E did considering the price. http://www.audionote.co.uk/reviews/s..._17-07-2k1.htm
    Quote Originally Posted by RGA
    I can't stress this enough - DO NOT GO BY REVIEWS
    Broken Record,Broken Record,Broken Record,Broken Record,Broken Record,Broken Record,Broken Record,Broken Record,Broken Record,Broken Record,Broken Record,Broken Record,Broken Record,Broken Record,Broken Record,Broken Record,Broken Record,Broken Record,Broken Record,Broken Record,Broken Record,Broken Record,Broken Record,Broken Record,Broken Record,Broken Record,Broken Record,Broken Record,Broken Record,Broken Record,Broken Record,Broken Record,Broken Record,Broken Record,

  24. #24
    Now with Almonds!
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    This is great, other than the personal remarks. I am getting some good tips and advice. I am only basing my question on 20hz to 20khz to point out the basic audible range. I am sure that missing 15 to 20hz or 5khz from the audible spectrum is not all that much. I am basically trying to get a close to perfect reproduction of whatever I am playing. I realize that the recording has pretty much the influence on your speakers. As for that, this is for well produced and recorded music and eventually movies. Thank you guys much so far.

    I am going to look at the Magneplanars(sp?) and see what the deal with eletrostatic sound is about. I remember being in a high-end store in Eugene, OR when I seen something similar about 13 years ago.

  25. #25
    a hell of an engineer
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    Quote Originally Posted by KRiTiKaL
    I am going to look at the Magneplanars(sp?) and see what the deal with eletrostatic sound is about.
    While very nice sounding, Magneplanars are notoriously inefficient and low in impedance. You need a very high power amplifier capable of driving low impedance loads for these speakers. 45 watts per channel will not be nearly enough.

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