Help! 20hz to 20khz least amount of $$$

[KRiTiKaL]

Can someone give me a suggestion for a full range 2 channel system?

I am thinking of a sub and bookshelf, or floor models? How about some ideas.

Room is 20x20 feet and concerning $$$, less is more! Thanks all.

[RGA]

More to a sound system than specs and measurements. Good bass costs money - deep bass might not but good bass does. And then what about how good the music sounds?

[kexodusc]

More to a sound system than specs and measurements. Good bass costs money - deep bass might not but good bass does. And then what about how good the music sounds?

I think what RGA's trying to say is...how much $$$ are you budgeting for this purchase?

[topspeed]

While you're answering RGA's and KC's questions, how about telling us what you listen to, what you are going to be driving them with, any placement issues, etc. The more info, the better.

[bargainseeker]

More information would be helpful. However, I'll make an initial recommendation on a bargain priced 20 Hz to 20 KHz speaker system for music listening to get the discussion rolling.

Get a pair of Ascend Acoustics CBM-170 bookshelf speakers for $328 plus shipping. The frequency response for the CBM-170 is shown here.

Add an SVS PB10-ISD subwoofer for $399 plus shipping. The frequency response for the PB10-ISD is shown here.

Total cost for all three: around $800.

Assumptions: I assume that you do not plan to listen to music at rock concert volume levels. I also assume that your receiver or preamp has a subwoofer output jack since the PB10-ISD has no internal crossover.

[Dusty Chalk]

While you're answering RGA's and KC's questions, how about telling us what you listen to, what you are going to be driving them with, any placement issues, etc. The more info, the better.

I think he already mentioned one:

Can someone give me a suggestion for a full range 2 channel system?

I am thinking of a sub and bookshelf, or floor models? How about some ideas.

Room is 20x20 feet and concerning $$$, less is more! Thanks all.

Dude, you're screwed. The first thing I'm going to tell you is install some serious bass dampening, especially at whatever node is reinforced at 20 feet. (Anyone?...anyone?...Williams? Smith?...Anyone? 28 Hz.)

[This Guy]

If you are just listening to music on this, why do you need it to go down to 20 hz? You only need to go this low is if you listen to pipe organ music. 30-40 hz would be fine with just about every other genre.

[RGA]

If you are just listening to music on this, why do you need it to go down to 20 hz? You only need to go this low is if you listen to pipe organ music. 30-40 hz would be fine with just about every other genre.

I disagree with this - my speaker goes down to 25hz and the E version goes down to 12hz usuable 17hz-6db. The bass envelope is noticable on a lot of recording and not just pipe organ - which is why so many speakers rated to around 35hz in the form of a standmount sound very much hackled off compared to my Wharfedales rated at 40hz.

Then there speakers from Totem that on the spec sheet get very close to my J's but sound severely lacking in overtones in the deep bass registers even into basic rock recordings. How does it do at 90db versus 60db kinda deal. And the J bass distortion is extremely low under 1% so it's not a box noise adding bass.

This why i have a problem with buying off a spec sheet or even the rudamentary measurements abound - there is bass depth but how does the bass sound. I have compared big floorstanders to my speakers that have bass but it sounds leaden like a a thuddy bass. I'm sure the spec doesn't lie when it says 30hz but either of my speakers sound more tuneful. So few speakers do this so maybe not many understand what is really meant by Tuneful bass response in rather soft subjective "listening" experience terms. This may also be a reason that some reviewers who compared the E's bass ability with organ music in terms of tunefullness while the other speaker tested had MORE deep bass power in terms of attack but lacked the musicality tunefull nimbleness in the lower registers.

Granted if yyou just want rock a speaker that can play 40hz with sizeable force should be enough for most people. My Wharfedales would be perfect for fans of rock with a Fostex(or oem) ring horn tweeter and 10 inch woofer big front port and work reasonably well in corners or anywhere really, and crossover controls for the treble and midrange. They can play to about 119db with astonishing bass impact. They are a bit sloppier - a mid bass rise no doubt that my J doesn't have. But that rise can sound very enjoyable for rock.

[This Guy]

My speakers are rated to go down to 30 hz, and they do. My sub only goes down to 35 hz, but the sub plays the llower frequencies just so much cleaner and louder. If I play them full range they just don't sound as good. I know what you're talking about and I agree. I personally haven't listened to any full range speakers so I wouldn't really know what that would sound like. I was more referencing him in getting a stand mount that can get down to about 80 hz, and just get a nice sealed sub that can go from there and rolls off at about 35-30 hz. It would be fairly inexpensive and sound nice (obviously only if he gets equpiment he likes).

[Sir Terrence the Terrible]

I know of no "inexpensive" full range speakers that have clean output to 20hz. The ones that do offer clean 20hz bass, cost a bundle(mine where about approx$ 2200 per pair) I think bargainseeker has the best solution for getting 20-20khz at a reasonable price.

Clean deep bass requires either agressive equalization, or a large box. Agressive equalization require an extremely durable driver with a long stroke. Not cheap. 70% of a speaker price comes from the box itself. The larger the box, the more expensive the speaker. The most economical way of getting full range performance lies in a quality sub sat system

[KRiTiKaL]

Most likely will power with 45wpc(have not picked a system)

Have probably $2000, I listen to R&B, Jazz, Metal, Rap, Live music. Just a system that reproduces the dynamic range at a not overly-loud level. I like my sound about 90decibels. Room is open and ceiling is 9feet high. I sit about 10 feet average from front. This will be used for a HT later on.

I am interested in the ascends. The chart shows roll off about 10khz tho.

[KRiTiKaL]

think 45wpc is enough volume?

Let me clarify my music preference: #1.Slayer/Pantera style Metal #2.Norah Jones/Sarah Brightman voice highs #3.Drum&Bass/Rap bass dependent. In order pretty much matter of importance.

With both products having a 30+ day guarantee, I might try ascend with a SVS.

Any advantages of tube vs box, from actual owners? I am looking at the 39 inch tube.

Thanks much

[RGA]

Here is a rule of thumb - if you can hear male vocals out of your sub you have bad bass period end of discussion - and I have heard awefully expensive ones do that. hen people will talk about where they're crossed over - but IMO this should not even be an option.

The problem with most full range speakers is that when you find a good spot for the midrange and treble you might get boomy bass. I think the main reason Audio Note is able to succeed at getting tremendous bass from relatively small cabinets and one 8inch driver is that they take into account the rear and side walls as well as the floor bounce and will get very similar results from room to room - presuming your room has 2 corners in it. Most do. But again Sir Terrance notes that it's not cheap.

Now i have heard some very deep(or 35hz very powerful and very loud) subs from Paradigm which whenever I build my home theater(very low priority for me) I would be extremely happy with and only cost about $800.00Cdn. Musically It wouldn't cut it for me.

I had that option of going with a $1k sub and my Standmounts which were good to 36hz. Or Spend that $1k and get a bigger standmount which is good 25hz. There was no doubt that the latter option was and is the better option musically. Having bass come from a seeming front source point source is indiscribably better in my view. Even big floorstanders with similar bass depth sound as though the bass is thudding from the floorboards. Imaine 25hz coming from ~2.5feet off the ground - projecting up where the stage is. Non Directional subs my ass.

[bargainseeker]

Most likely will power with 45wpc(have not picked a system)

Have probably $2000, I listen to R&B, Jazz, Metal, Rap, Live music. Just a system that reproduces the dynamic range at a not overly-loud level. I like my sound about 90decibels. Room is open and ceiling is 9feet high. I sit about 10 feet average from front. This will be used for a HT later on.

I am interested in the ascends. The chart shows roll off about 10khz tho.

It takes some practice to read these frequency response charts. The on-axis chart provided by Ascend Acoustics shows the CBM-170 speakers flat to 18KHz and down about 3dB at 20KHz. For independent measurements of the CBM-170s see the Soundstage measurements of the CBM-170. In particular, see Chart 2 for the frequency response within a +/- 15 degree listening window. If properly positioned and adjusted, the combination of the SVS PB10-ISD and Ascend Acoustics CBM-170s should give you 18Hz - 20KHz +/- 3dB. Please note: I do not recommend any other of the Ascend Acoustics speakers.

I am not sure if your $2000 budget is for speakers alone or for speakers + receiver/preamp/amp. If the $2000 is for speakers alone, you may want to consider upgrading the subwoofer and getting 5 (or 6 or 7) CBM-170s for a complete home theater system. Alternatively, you could get two even higher quality bookshelf monitor speakers with an upgraded subwoofer. At $2000, you are also in the low end of a pair of floor standing speakers that are capable of full range reproduction without a subwoofer.

45 watt per channel should be more than adequate for powering efficient speakers such as the CBM-170s for music listening under the conditions you specify. However, I am not so sure that it will be adequate for home theater use. Many movies have greater dynamic range than music. For this application, you may want to get more power per channel.

[Pat D]

Most likely will power with 45wpc(have not picked a system)

Have probably $2000, I listen to R&B, Jazz, Metal, Rap, Live music. Just a system that reproduces the dynamic range at a not overly-loud level. I like my sound about 90decibels. Room is open and ceiling is 9feet high. I sit about 10 feet average from front. This will be used for a HT later on.

I am interested in the ascends. The chart shows roll off about 10khz tho.

Almost any good speaker will go up to 20 kHz or above, and really, above 15 kHz is of very little importance. To get deep bass at a reasonable cost requires a subwoofer. So you could probably get a subwoofer from Hsu or SVS with useful bass to 20 Hz, a pair of bookshelf speakers or small towers, a receiver and a DVD player (they play CDs, too!) and stay within 2 grand.

You don't specify which Ascend Acoustics speaker you have in mind. Anyway, I looked up the review of the Ascend Acoustics CBM-170 on Soundstage and it does go up to 20 kHz--no sign of a roll off there. Is there on some other model? It doesn't do too much below about 70 Hz, but should do well with a subwoofer as long as you don't want to play it too, too loud. Its sensitivity is measured as 89 dB by the NRC but its impedance in the upper bass looks to be about 4 ohms, so you would want a receiver that will drive 4 ohm speakers.

http://www.soundstage.com/revequip/a...ics_cbm170.htm

Somewhat less sensitive (87 dB) is the Energy Connoisseur C-3, which seems to have useful bass to about 40 Hz. It costs somewhat more, too, but you still should be able to fit it in a 2 grand system. I have heard it and it is quite nice.

http://www.soundstage.com/revequip/energy_c3.htm

As for priorities, I think it is important to find main speakers you really like than to have deep bass. Listen to as many good speakers as is practical. They are what put out most of the sound. If the main speakers you like take up too much of the budget, you might have to compromise on getting good bass down to 20 Hz, or put it off until later.

Do you have any idea how loud 90 dBa really is? It's pretty loud. Get yourself a Radio Shack Sound Pressure Level Meter, Cat. No. 33-2050 (thats the preferred analog version) to see. It's also useful to keep your listening levels safe so as not to damage your hearing, and is also useful for setting up a subwoofer or a home theatre system.

[Geoffcin]

Can someone give me a suggestion for a full range 2 channel system?

I am thinking of a sub and bookshelf, or floor models? How about some ideas.

Room is 20x20 feet and concerning $$$, less is more! Thanks all.

My Audio system goes even further, more like 14hz-40khz, and that's not anything that makes it "better" in any way. The thing that makes it better is that I like it, therefore it's "better" for me. Great speakers don't always have to go down into the 20's. Fully 95% of all music has NO audible content that low. If you've got 2k to spend on your speaker system then you have a LOT of choices available to you. The best advise I can give to you is go out and audition some speakers. Hit Magnepan.com and see who's your local dealer. You owe it to yourself to at least hear them.

[Woochifer]

My question to you is why you're trying to find a full range speaker? Most subwoofers don't go down to 20 Hz, most music notes don't come close to hitting that range, and even explosions in action pics don't always go that low. It's a LOT of expense to try and find a speaker that can do the full range and do it well.

Also, don't get too wound up on the measurements and specs. Even if a speaker measures perfectly under lab conditions, it will sound far from perfect once you stick it inside a typical living room. Once the sounds go below about 200 Hz, they are VERY heavily influenced by the room acoustics. The variation in room acoustics is the reason why it's almost pointless to do subwoofer comparisons in a dealer's demo room.

As you go lower into the bass range, the room dimensions, the listening position, and the placement play an increasingly significant role in how the bass sounds. Wave interactions can create huge peaks that result in booming headsplitting bass or they can cancel each other out and make the bass sound hollow and thin. If you have the wrong combination, it will not matter how well a speaker or speaker/sub combination measures up on paper -- those room effects will affect ALL speakers unless you change the positioning or use equalization. The subwoofer's main advantage is that you can move it to where the bass response sounds fullest and most even, and that spot within the room is rarely where the sound is best for the main speakers.

IMO, go with the main speakers that sound best to you, and try them out at home before you buy. Don't let the bass drive your decision since it's really the midrange where most of the sounds will come from. If you want more bass, then go with the subwoofer option and learn about how to properly set it up.