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  1. #26
    My custom user title This Guy's Avatar
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    45 watts in 8 ohms, probably around 90 watts at 4 ohms with the Maggies. He wants to get to 90 dB. Panels like the Maggies only lose 3 dB per doubling of distance because they are large arrays, opposite of a point source which decays at 6 db per doubling of distance (most conventional speakers). Lets see here the maggies are around 85 db sensitive right?

    1 watt-85db
    2-88
    4-91
    8-94
    16-97
    32-100
    64-103

    If he sits 12 feet away, approximately 3 meters, the spl at his seat would be roughly 97 decibels if I didn't screw any of it up. He'll get louder than he wants at 12 feet and only 64 watts. He'll even get louder than he wants at 32 watts. Your amp sounds fine assuming it can handle the 4 ohms.

  2. #27
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    Sorry to say man..but 90dB is damages your hearing...
    I'm not sure if you really wanna stick with something like that, because later on you might require 100dB to actually hear anything.

  3. #28
    Silence of the spam Site Moderator Geoffcin's Avatar
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    It's really not that simple

    Quote Originally Posted by This Guy
    45 watts in 8 ohms, probably around 90 watts at 4 ohms with the Maggies. He wants to get to 90 dB. Panels like the Maggies only lose 3 dB per doubling of distance because they are large arrays, opposite of a point source which decays at 6 db per doubling of distance (most conventional speakers). Lets see here the maggies are around 85 db sensitive right?

    1 watt-85db
    2-88
    4-91
    8-94
    16-97
    32-100
    64-103

    If he sits 12 feet away, approximately 3 meters, the spl at his seat would be roughly 97 decibels if I didn't screw any of it up. He'll get louder than he wants at 12 feet and only 64 watts. He'll even get louder than he wants at 32 watts. Your amp sounds fine assuming it can handle the 4 ohms.
    Your measurements assume a sine wave tone. The problem is that all music is transient in nature. Even listening at a low level, say 85db, you could easily have a peak of 98db on a drum strike, or cymbal crash. The transient won't damage your hearing, but you amp might have a fit if it can't produce the current necessary. Maggies don't really come alive until they are up in the 80's, one of the few faults that I have with them. A good 45 watt amp is barely enough to support this unless it has great dynamic reserve. 100 watts is a good starting point for Maggies.
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  4. #29
    RGA
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    Kex

    Have no problem if someone wants to use a sub as a form of tone control where you jack up the response of a bass frequency. If that's what one wishes to do it is not much different than wanting to jack up the response at 4khz or 20khz.

    My comments on instruments are about low to high integration.

    The E's were demoed with pedal organ classical work off LP at the last CES with two samples from 32hz to 16hz at high level and apparently thundered. Synthesizer are full range - synthesizer is all over the place from Sarah McLachlan to this weeks trance group - they can go well beyond the 20hz-20khz range. Granted those were upper level E's and apparently they have more oomph than the lower E's - different magnets.

    Subwoofers are not recommended for Audio Note K,J or E speakers. Peter has bought the best subs currently available on the market trying to re-work whichever is best for his E. All were fruitlesss. He has been working on an 845Tube powereed subwoofer which will obviously have to dovetail down to 12hz and play significantly loud. The 845 tube is considered a low powered tube so if he ever gets the time it would be interesting.

    I'm not saying there are speakers that don't have more bass volume or bass depth - not at all. But you answered your own quesiton. If so little music plays under 40hz(don't forget overtones) then why would anyone NEED a subwoofer for music listening with say a Studio 40 - I kow I sure as hell would want a sub for almost all standmounts I've come accross that claim 40hz.

    I would probably want a Sub for Home theater no matter what - probably due to the mix.

  5. #30
    Forum Regular Woochifer's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by RGA
    My point was not really to attack subs - I am not partial to the sound of sub/satelite systems I have no problem with subs for home theater where your accuracy cue for a car bomb exploding really has no reference. I can't say for sure what a T-Rex stomping on car really sounds like - I can say that a cello should sound like one cohesive instrument because i know what a cello should sound like but a T-Rex or doctored multi channel effects I can't say. There is no reference point for such things. So, I don't bother with that I bother with the cello, piano, organ and even a synthezier which both certainly go to 20hz and below.
    Of course, you're attacking subs if you claim that they're only good for explosions and inadequate for music.

    Quote Originally Posted by RGA
    Everytime you add a step to the chain you create problems and those problems need corrections and those corrections cause other problems. A three way which is what a system using a Subwoofer becomes, is another step back which needs some sort of error correction device to fix the problems. Some people think that current receivers add on decvices and subwoofers work - I don't - no big deal go and listen to some such set-ups versus the AN J or E. You can believe the technological hype or you can go and listen to the J and E versus Say a $2,000 Energy Veritas, B&W, paradigm, PSB, standmount and ANY subwoofer you wish.
    Those "errors" that you refer to are not caused by the subwoofer, they're caused by the ROOM. As you go below 200 Hz, the influence of the room effects increase as the wavelengths get longer. This affects all speakers as they go into the lower frequencies, and not just subwoofers. This is a point that you consistently ignore/fail to understand. What you refer to as ERROR correction is nothing more than correcting for normal room effects.

    If you have actually try these speakers that you mention at home, have you actually taken the time to properly set it up and INTEGRATE IT in with your mains by using the proper crossover, phase, and (if available) equalization settings? An in-store demo is inadequate to judge the quality of a subwoofer because they are rarely setup with the optimal settings since those settings potentially change with different main speakers.

    Quote Originally Posted by RGA
    I am fully aware I'm in the minority on this predominantly A/V forum when it comes to sub integration. But always note the small words like Almost integrates or very closely integrates and otherbsubtle weasal words people use. All that is well and good and for most people - fine but almost counts in horseshoes- almost integrating a piano or cello isn't enough. When a speaker like the J, which is only expensive because a smaller company is making them, can offer better bass than most all 1kCdn subs - all the ones I've heard even up to 2kCdn and do it from one 8 inch woofer. Why?
    Unless something PERFECTLY integrates together, then what you refer to as "othersubtle weasel words" are an accurate description. There's no such thing as a perfect speaker, so if you're using this "othersubtle weasel words" description as yet another backhanded putdown of all things non-AN, then you're taking your fanboy biases to pretty ridiculous heights since the AN would have to absolutely perfect. If it's not perfect, then you have to use one of your weasel words to describe those speakers.

    Quote Originally Posted by RGA
    Have no problem if someone wants to use a sub as a form of tone control where you jack up the response of a bass frequency. If that's what one wishes to do it is not much different than wanting to jack up the response at 4khz or 20khz.
    If you read Kex's comments, he's not talking about subs as a form of tone control or jacking up the response. It's simply about reinforcing the lower octave where the speaker trails off.

    Quote Originally Posted by RGA
    Subwoofers are not recommended for Audio Note K,J or E speakers. Peter has bought the best subs currently available on the market trying to re-work whichever is best for his E. All were fruitlesss. He has been working on an 845Tube powereed subwoofer which will obviously have to dovetail down to 12hz and play significantly loud. The 845 tube is considered a low powered tube so if he ever gets the time it would be interesting.
    ALL the "best subs currently available"? He must have made a LOT of money then if he can afford to do this, because there are a lot of them on the market. Rather than "reworking" them, why not set them up properly and try them out without modification?

    Quote Originally Posted by RGA
    I'm not saying there are speakers that don't have more bass volume or bass depth - not at all. But you answered your own quesiton. If so little music plays under 40hz(don't forget overtones) then why would anyone NEED a subwoofer for music listening with say a Studio 40 - I kow I sure as hell would want a sub for almost all standmounts I've come accross that claim 40hz.
    Nobody NEEDS a subwoofer, but I went with a sub with my system because I wanted the best possible bass quality out of my system. Installing a subwoofer opened a world of possibilities. First, the placement flexibility allowed me to work around the acoustical issues in my room. The ideal placement for my Studio 40s for imaging quality and midrange coherency was along the middle of the front wall. This placement also creates one wave cancellation and two large peaks in the lower frequencies, which creates a nonlinear bass response even though my Studio 40s have measureable output down to 35 Hz. I know it's mostly room inuduced because the frequency response in the bass changes when I move the speakers. The subwoofer allows for far more linear bass response because the subwoofer can be placed in a more advantageous location, AND it allows for the use of ROOM correction devices like a parametric equalizer. If you've never heard a properly equalized subwoofer, then you're in no position whatsoever to denounce the merits of subwoofers the way that you have. The other point that you're ignoring is that taking the lowest bass notes out of the signal, the speaker as notably greater coherency in the MIDRANGE. Plenty of tube advocates and two-channel devotees have advocated subwoofers for years because having to power and drive the lower octaves has a detrimental effect on the other parts of the music. Dan Wiggins of Adire Audio highly recommends subwoofers with tube systems because in his opinion the peak demands from the low frequencies particularly detract from the midrange quality when using tubes.

  6. #31
    Loving This kexodusc's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by RGA
    Kex
    Have no problem if someone wants to use a sub as a form of tone control where you jack up the response of a bass frequency. If that's what one wishes to do it is not much different than wanting to jack up the response at 4khz or 20khz. .
    Tone Control??? Who said anything about Tone control???...No, what I'm saying is that despite stats and measurements, even the great AN E's aren't omnipotent...they have limitations, a good subwoofer compliments them, it doesn't boost frequencies. I honestly believe the AN E's strongest attribute is it's ability to reproduce life-like midrange frequencies...it does this very, very well...better than it reproduces bass, which it also does well. There's a point where a sub could take over, say, around 35-40 Hz and provide the same level of performance in the bottom octave as the higher octaves.

    Yes the AN E's have good, usuable bass. Better than my Studio 40's no doubt....I think even better than my floorstanders. They sound really good. With a properly set sub, they AN E's can sound even better...

    Quote Originally Posted by RGA
    My comments on instruments are about low to high integration.
    Good, glad you brought this up. It's a proven fact that there are limitations when you put a tweeter and woofer in the same box, and then place them in any particular speaker area of a given room. The room has an effect. Audio Note can make strict guidelines and recommendations about corner placement for the best performance of it's speakers, but that does not mean a sub couldn't make them even better. Just like care is given in the speaker's crossvoer when integrating the midrange to the highs, care should be given when integrating a sub...I see too many people just stick it beside their main speaker, or beside their tv, turn it up, and go...not good.

    As Wooch described, you'll find a woofer/mid-woofer will handle the ever important mid-range frequencies even better when relieved of the burden of the really low frequencies.

    Quote Originally Posted by RGA
    Subwoofers are not recommended for Audio Note K,J or E speakers. Peter has bought the best subs currently available on the market trying to re-work whichever is best for his E. All were fruitlesss.
    Here's a challenge RGA...Are you telling me that if we could somehow take Peter's setup, and test out every subwoofer that could possibly compliment the AN E's, with proper setup, eq, etc, that it is simply not possible that any of these subs could improve the sound? Not even one?
    If Peter has already reproduced Audio-Perfection, why does he still tinker? Why did he keep creating yet even more expensive versions of the E?

    Quote Originally Posted by RGA
    I'm not saying there are speakers that don't have more bass volume or bass depth - not at all. But you answered your own quesiton. If so little music plays under 40hz(don't forget overtones) then why would anyone NEED a subwoofer for music listening with say a Studio 40 - I kow I sure as hell would want a sub for almost all standmounts I've come accross that claim 40hz.
    Good, and I'm not saying that the AN's doen't sound really, really good without a sub...
    And I must apologize...I sort of baited you into bringing up overtones and harmonics...perhaps now you can begin to see the limitions of the AN E?

    I bet if Peter came out with a sub tomorrow which he claimed complimented the AN's, you'd believe him...unfortunately you'll often find that designers of great speakers cannot design equally great subs and vice-versa...perhaps Peter should look for some help on the subject.

  7. #32
    RGA
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    Kex - I have owned a sub which was in the $700 range and didn;t do better than 40hz.

    The E is rated to 16hz-18 -6db which is stil a formidable amount of bass(with usable bass to 12hz(which I take to mean @ -10db). They are measured at 22hz -3db by Hi-fi Choice. The older E's of about 5-10 years ago were not as good at -6 dB @ 24 Hz and probably 30hz -3db. So yes Peter continually tries to stretch the envelope. The original Snell Type E was rated at 39hz and the original Snell J was 50hz. The current J gets 25hz - these are signifcant improvements by any standard when the same cabinet shape is used.

    I am not going to buy a sub for my home to set-up in order to "find-out" if the sub will improve my situation. Peter Qvortrup has been working with Rel I beleive it is out of Whales just as they have worked with Rega, Bosendorfer, Goldring etc.

    It is up to Paradigm and B&W etc to prove to me that they can integrate their subs BEFORE I plunk my heard earned money down. If they want to sell me they need to work in concert with their dealers to develop a professionally set-up all Paradigm or B&W room which they themselves BUILD for the dealer - Audio Note demands that their system be presented as a complete system with instructions on how to set-it up. You WILL do it the way Audio Note wants(at all reasonable effort) or you WILL NOT carry their equipment. If Audio Note has the pull to get this done you can bet Paradigm and B&W with their size and muscle sure can. Audio Video Unlimited several years ago had a dealer who told me that Paradigm constructed their room. So if that was not set-up correctly then it's their tough luck. They certainly are not going to get me to buy what I heard from tehir set-up room and are not convincing me that i should buy it anyway. Their job is to pre-convince me that it works not to have some guy named Woochifer get me to buy a sub and tell me that NOTHING could make ANY part of the sound worse by doing this.

    Yes I agree I could get MORE deep bass with a sub and so could an E owner and so too may some be happy with the results - but the current E gets 22hz -3db and as you say Kex - if most music doesn't dip below 40hz then I don't see how the E is too quiet at 40hz when it isn't too quiet at 22hz.

    But hey personal taste everyone you want a sub sat get one you think it's better then get one - it's about YOUR enjoyment of the music - just don't tell me how I should enjoy it. I tend to agree with Skeptic, UHF, Peter Qvortrup, and a lot of folks whoese experiences I trust and my own experiences on Subwoofers. You all can do whatever you wish. Enjoy.

  8. #33
    Forum Regular Woochifer's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by RGA
    Kex - I have owned a sub which was in the $700 range and didn;t do better than 40hz.
    Was this a spec that you actually measured for yourself, or are you just presuming? Judging by your comments so far, I doubt that the sub was properly setup or placed, which of course can influence the in-room response. My $400 subwoofer measures flat within 2 db from the crossover point down to 25 Hz because I read up on the proper setup procedures and made the necessary room corrections. You can talk about bass extension all you want, but in the low frequencies, linearity and balance are what you should be aiming for. The acoustics in a small to medium sized room will usually ensure that this does not happen unless you apply some kind of room correction.

    Quote Originally Posted by RGA
    I am not going to buy a sub for my home to set-up in order to "find-out" if the sub will improve my situation. Peter Qvortrup has been working with Rel I beleive it is out of Whales just as they have worked with Rega, Bosendorfer, Goldring etc.
    Nobody's asking you to, but you're making a whole load of sweeping generalizations based on what you've heard in sighted demo room listenings. If you don't want to "find out" then don't go around telling everyone that you have the answer when you never bothered to ask the question. If I were to base my opinion of subwoofers based strictly on what I've heard in random demo rooms, I might think that you're right. But, I have heard properly setup demos, and I have my own equalized setup to know first hand what the advantages of a subwoofer are if the setup is optimized, and what pitfalls to look out for in the setup process.

    Quote Originally Posted by RGA
    It is up to Paradigm and B&W etc to prove to me that they can integrate their subs BEFORE I plunk my heard earned money down. If they want to sell me they need to work in concert with their dealers to develop a professionally set-up all Paradigm or B&W room which they themselves BUILD for the dealer - Audio Note demands that their system be presented as a complete system with instructions on how to set-it up. You WILL do it the way Audio Note wants(at all reasonable effort) or you WILL NOT carry their equipment. If Audio Note has the pull to get this done you can bet Paradigm and B&W with their size and muscle sure can. Audio Video Unlimited several years ago had a dealer who told me that Paradigm constructed their room. So if that was not set-up correctly then it's their tough luck. They certainly are not going to get me to buy what I heard from tehir set-up room and are not convincing me that i should buy it anyway. Their job is to pre-convince me that it works not to have some guy named Woochifer get me to buy a sub and tell me that NOTHING could make ANY part of the sound worse by doing this.
    How many times do you have to get reminded that demo rooms are rarely an ideal acoustical setting to audition a subwoofer? Just about everybody on this board who actually knows something about subwoofers will tell you that demo room listenings are basically useless for evaluating subwoofers because 1) they are hardly ever placed correctly; 2) the acoustical environment will usually not approximate what you have at home; 3) if the room allows for equipment to get swapped out, then the settings are usually not optimized for the mains that they get paired with; 4) customers have a way of tinkering with things; and 5) if the demo room is small, then every subwoofer will probably sound lousy without some kind of acoustical treatment or equialization.

    Just because you claim that B&W and Paradigm constructed the demo room does not mean that customers don't tinker with the settings, the speakers don't get moved around, the crossover settings don't get changed when the dealer switches out the equipment, or that the setup that you see on the floor is always optimal. The dealer setups that I've heard where the subwoofer seamlessly integrates with the mains are the ones that either have a permanent installation in place with all of the settings done correctly or the dealer knows the proper placement and settings for the various sub/speaker combinations that they demonstrate.

    If you want to put the blinders on and base your opinions on this subject entirely on whatever your dealer has setup in his room or whatever "Peter" tells you is true, then that's your call. But, when you start arguing about the inferiority and weasel word descriptions of subwoofer integration, you're basing this on half-truths and inadequate information. If you want to sit back and say that the burden is on Paradigm or B&W to show you the right way to do a subwoofer setup, that's a copout. If you want to take that kind of disinterested approach, then you have zero basis for trying to argue this subject with people who HAVE hands on experience with and read up on setting up a subwoofer properly.

    It would be the equivalent of me plugging in my subwoofer, noting that it sounded boomy out of the box, and then concluding that subwoofers suck. Never mind how much the sound quality improved after setting the levels with a SPL meter, using a test disc to verify the proper phase setting, doing in-room measurements to identify room-induced acoustical problems, and then using a parametric equalizer to correct the room-induced problems

    Quote Originally Posted by RGA
    Yes I agree I could get MORE deep bass with a sub and so could an E owner and so too may some be happy with the results - but the current E gets 22hz -3db and as you say Kex - if most music doesn't dip below 40hz then I don't see how the E is too quiet at 40hz when it isn't too quiet at 22hz.
    You're the one that keeps telling people not to trust specs, so what makes the ones for the ANs so trustworthy in your view? If these frequency response specs that you quote are in-room and based on corner placement, they have very limited applicability because they're room dependent and more so than in-room measurements that are taken in free space.

    Quote Originally Posted by RGA
    But hey personal taste everyone you want a sub sat get one you think it's better then get one - it's about YOUR enjoyment of the music - just don't tell me how I should enjoy it. I tend to agree with Skeptic, UHF, Peter Qvortrup, and a lot of folks whoese experiences I trust and my own experiences on Subwoofers. You all can do whatever you wish. Enjoy.
    Nobody's telling you how you should enjoy your listening. Just don't start spouting off to everybody else about how their subwoofer setups are therefore inferior when you've never even done your homework on how to properly setup a subwoofer/speaker combination. It doesn't matter that you once owned a subwoofer if you don't understand how to correctly set the crossover frequency, the phase, the equalization, and the levels. Even worse if you actually set it up only by ear. Did you even use a SPL meter?
    Last edited by Woochifer; 10-01-2004 at 07:43 PM.

  9. #34
    Loving This kexodusc's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by RGA
    Kex - I have owned a sub which was in the $700 range and didn;t do better than 40hz.
    So?

    Quote Originally Posted by RGA
    The E is rated to 16hz-18 -6db which is stil a formidable amount of bass(with usable bass to 12hz(which I take to mean @ -10db). They are measured at 22hz -3db by Hi-fi Choice. The older E's of about 5-10 years ago were not as good at -6 dB @ 24 Hz and probably 30hz -3db. So yes Peter continually tries to stretch the envelope. The original Snell Type E was rated at 39hz and the original Snell J was 50hz. The current J gets 25hz - these are signifcant improvements by any standard when the same cabinet shape is used.
    Impressive stats,no question...in what room where they taken? What dimensions? From the listening position? How much variance in the curve below 40 Hz from 1 frequency to the next?

    Quote Originally Posted by RGA
    Audio Note demands that their system be presented as a complete system with instructions on how to set-it up. You WILL do it the way Audio Note wants(at all reasonable effort) or you WILL NOT carry their equipment. If Audio Note has the pull to get this done you can bet Paradigm and B&W with their size and muscle sure can.
    I understand what you're saying here. I agree with it somewhat. But to be fair to B&W and Paradigm, they aren't in the same business or market segment as AN really. There's no way they could sell Atoms, Mini-Monitors, or even Studio 20's as cheap as they do if they started applying added costs of arranging rooms for all dealers etc. And they wouldn't be carried by nearly as many dealers if they did, so it's not in their best interests, or their consumers. Instead they rely on their dealers...a hit and miss strategy. But it works for them.

    Quote Originally Posted by RGA
    Their job is to pre-convince me that it works not to have some guy named Woochifer get me to buy a sub and tell me that NOTHING could make ANY part of the sound worse by doing this.
    I've learned along time ago not to take the marketing pitches of anyone, Paradigm, Peter Q, etc, as gospel truth. I leave it to myself to explore possibilities within my means and make my own conclusions. Just because Peter Q doesn't have a subwoofer to sell you doesn't mean someone else's couldn't enhance your system.

    Quote Originally Posted by RGA
    Yes I agree I could get MORE deep bass with a sub and so could an E owner and so too may some be happy with the results - but the current E gets 22hz -3db and as you say Kex - if most music doesn't dip below 40hz then I don't see how the E is too quiet at 40hz when it isn't too quiet at 22hz.
    Two points here:
    1) It's not the extension,it's the quality of the reproduction. Between the ranges 500 Hz and 5000 Hz, the Paradigm Atom is +/- 2....so is the AN E...are telling me their midranges are equal? There's more to sound than response and extension.

    2) I think you've misread my earlier point...here it is again:
    Quote Originally Posted by Kexodusc
    Probably low to mid 40's (Hz) would account for 99% of a piano or organs real world usuage.
    I made no claims about "most music". I offered a response to your argument which employed inaccurate claims of the response of certain instruments...that made your points less credible.
    You're probably right, alot of music probably doesn't occur below 40Hz, but that doesn't mean it's not desireable to reproduce well that which does.

    Quote Originally Posted by RGA
    But hey personal taste everyone you want a sub sat get one you think it's better then get one - it's about YOUR enjoyment of the music - just don't tell me how I should enjoy it. I tend to agree with Skeptic, UHF, Peter Qvortrup, and a lot of folks whoese experiences I trust and my own experiences on Subwoofers. You all can do whatever you wish. Enjoy.
    Last time I checked, ol' Skep and Peter Q didn't agree about anything...where is Skeptic these days?
    You speak of sub/sat combo's as if their always a bad thing. I occasionally use a sub with my full-range floorstanders, sometimes it's better, sometimes it's not. I think even you can appreciate the inherent flaws of reproducing music from 2 fixed points...after all, most musical acts are nothing more than a group of multiple localized satellites (ie: producing sound from more than 2 fixed points).

  10. #35
    Silence of the spam Site Moderator Geoffcin's Avatar
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    There is no speaker capable of 20hz-20khz responce

    Quote Originally Posted by kexodusc
    So?

    Impressive stats,no question...in what room where they taken? What dimensions? From the listening position? How much variance in the curve below 40 Hz from 1 frequency to the next?
    With a 8" woofer, no matter what type enclosure is used. Even a 15" woofer with a free air resonance of 9hz is hard pressed to produce a flat responce to 20hz without equalization. I give you the B&W 801's for an example. A speaker capable of prodigious bass, but not flat to 20hz. It's not B&W's fault, it just a matter of physics.
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  11. #36
    Loving This kexodusc's Avatar
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    Interesting comments, Geoffcin

    Quote Originally Posted by Geoffcin
    With a 8" woofer, no matter what type enclosure is used. Even a 15" woofer with a free air resonance of 9hz is hard pressed to produce a flat responce to 20hz without equalization. I give you the B&W 801's for an example. A speaker capable of prodigious bass, but not flat to 20hz. It's not B&W's fault, it just a matter of physics.
    I kind of suspected as much, but I don't spend much time comparing published stats to independantly measured stats, and really, I've probably only even heard of a small fraction of all the speakers out there.
    As the wavelength increases, it interacts more with the room's environment. This is why I don't put much faith in AN's (or anybody's) measurements...to me, an anechoic chamber is at least a common point for reference purposes, but in the end it doesn't really tell you how a speaker will behave in any given room.

    I've tend to notice that any speaker that makes claims about 20 to 20,000 Hz is almost always way out of my price range, or sold from a white van in the parking lot at Best Buy.

  12. #37
    Silence of the spam Site Moderator Geoffcin's Avatar
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    Are you implying that

    Quote Originally Posted by kexodusc
    I kind of suspected as much, but I don't spend much time comparing published stats to independantly measured stats, and really, I've probably only even heard of a small fraction of all the speakers out there.
    As the wavelength increases, it interacts more with the room's environment. This is why I don't put much faith in AN's (or anybody's) measurements...to me, an anechoic chamber is at least a common point for reference purposes, but in the end it doesn't really tell you how a speaker will behave in any given room.

    I've tend to notice that any speaker that makes claims about 20 to 20,000 Hz is almost always way out of my price range, or sold from a white van in the parking lot at Best Buy.
    AN is now being sold out of white vans? An interesting marketing move on their part.
    Audio;
    Ming Da MC34-AB 75wpc
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  13. #38
    Loving This kexodusc's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Geoffcin
    AN is now being sold out of white vans? An interesting marketing move on their part.
    Audio Note requires that each white van be calibrated, and set up specifically to their standards or they WILL NOT allow the white van to carry their speakers.

  14. #39
    RGA
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    Wooch you say you have heard proper demos of sub integration that sounded good - you presume many times where I have been dissatified that it MUST be the room or the set-up. Presume as you will - end of discussion on the subject.

    Peter did not say one could not integrate subs well. I'd like to see the quote. I know he doesn't like subs with his speakers - the mere fact he is working on them should tell you that he is not against subs. Nor am I. I just said I have not been impressed with the dedicated rooms with staionary set-up with NO removable speakers and to which customers cannt get access to the subs to ALTER them and of which were supposedly set-up by the experts of those designing them in sound proofed "ideal" rooms. I'm sorry if I don't like the sound for acoustic music and if that upsets you. If owned a Paradigm or B&W, Totem or PSB standmount then yes I would buy a Sub/eq/spl meter and test disc. Of course I would.

    As for the AN they are strikingly good from room to room like no other speaker i've come across - so long as you follow the recommended room size guidelines. The measurements I posted were independant from Martim Colloms and Paul Messenger - some of those measurements are superior to those rather conservative numbers provided by Audio Note. The issue really has nothing to do with Audio Note. I am not a fan of the type of bass I've heard from subwoofers - the notion that one sub is built for music and one is built for home theater set-ups well do what you want with that.

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    Well i didnt understand most of the Tech talk. But here are some thought from me (for those who care )

    Music doesnt come from a "point source". If you sit in a concert its is extremely hard to close your eyes and pin point an instrument. A instrument radiates its waves in all directions, and bounces of walls, players and other objects.

    Most "natural" non-electronic music doesnt go very low at all.

    There is absolutly no way a enclosed box type speaker is able to reproduce the sonic size, power and wave pattern of a live instrument.

    If i were to pick a string from a guitar, the sound wave would radiate in all directions, bounce of me, bounce of walls, weaken its signal strength etc...So why do people follow the persuit to make a box speaker play perfectly flat from 40000Hz to 20Hz ?!? when you will never get the real deal from it, because of the pysical limitations of the box.

    The enclosure slows down the waves, the tweeter and drivers are to small to display a grand piano in its original size. The drivers are to heavy to stop and slow the motions.

    This is not a rant on box speakers. I have heard Kharma, Audio Physics, Avalon etc.. and decided on the Maggies. First i had .5 than 1.6 and now the 3.6

    Cheers
    Maggie 3.6R to be replaced with new Apogee Scintillas 1ohm !! :-) 20Hz flat to Ultrasonic at 110db at 4m
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    System3: Magnepan MG.5QR/SE, Cambridge Audio C500/P500, Philips CD985 connected to Leasegang projector
    Contact me...f.wiegand@t-online.de

  16. #41
    Forum Regular Woochifer's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by RGA
    Wooch you say you have heard proper demos of sub integration that sounded good - you presume many times where I have been dissatified that it MUST be the room or the set-up. Presume as you will - end of discussion on the subject.
    It is a presumption, but you've given absolutely no indication in this thread that you understand how the subwoofer integration and bass quality depend a great deal on the room acoustics, the correct placement, and the correct settings. You fail to acknowledge those variables and go with false statements like a subwoofer being bad if you can hear male vocals, it being desirable not to have a crossover option, or the AN's bass does not vary from room to room because they supposedly account for the corner placement and floor bounce. Unless you're talking about rooms with dimensions of more than about 40 feet, it's virtually impossible for a speaker or subwoofer to have consistent tonal characteristics in the low frequencies from room to room, without some kind of equalization.

    Quote Originally Posted by RGA
    I just said I have not been impressed with the dedicated rooms with staionary set-up with NO removable speakers and to which customers cannt get access to the subs to ALTER them and of which were supposedly set-up by the experts of those designing them in sound proofed "ideal" rooms. I'm sorry if I don't like the sound for acoustic music and if that upsets you. If owned a Paradigm or B&W, Totem or PSB standmount then yes I would buy a Sub/eq/spl meter and test disc. Of course I would.
    So the merits of subwoofers are only to be judged by these dedicated rooms that you're talking about? Unless you know who these "experts" were, and if the setup was even done right in the first place, you're presuming an awful lot. I don't know of too many demo rooms I've visited that were "setup" by factory reps, and not all of the dedicated theater rooms I've heard are setup correctly. If you're evaluating the merits of all subwoofers strictly by your demo room listenings without having done a proper setup and calibration of a subwoofer yourself and knowing how different room and setup variables can radically alter what you hear, then you're in no position to judge a whole class of products based on such incomplete information.

    Quote Originally Posted by RGA
    As for the AN they are strikingly good from room to room like no other speaker i've come across - so long as you follow the recommended room size guidelines. The measurements I posted were independant from Martim Colloms and Paul Messenger - some of those measurements are superior to those rather conservative numbers provided by Audio Note. The issue really has nothing to do with Audio Note. I am not a fan of the type of bass I've heard from subwoofers - the notion that one sub is built for music and one is built for home theater set-ups well do what you want with that.
    So, AN put out recommended room size guidelines -- what if your room does not follow their guidelines? And as Kex asked, what does it say about the linearity of the bass response?

    I don't know what notion of one sub built for music and another built for home theater you're talking about. I use my sub for two-channel music, multichannel music, 2.0 surround, and 5.1 surround movies, with an identical equalization curve for all of them. And once I got the subwoofer properly equalized and integrated with the mains, there's no reason whatsoever that I can't achieve excellent results for both music and movie sources. There are tradeoffs if you're comparing different subwoofer designs like ported versus sealed boxes, but that does not have anything to do with subs being built for movies separately from ones designed for music.

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    full range in single package, hmmmm time for def tech super towers
    this one looks in ur price

    BP7002 Specifications:
    Dimensions: 7-1/4" W x 16" D x 46-1/4" H
    Freq. Response: 15 Hz 30 kHz
    Nominal Impedance: Compatible with 8 ohms
    Rec. Assoc. Amp.: 20 400 watts/channel
    Driver Complement: Four 5-1/4" high definition cast-magnesium basket polymer upper bass/midrange drivers. Two 1" pure aluminum dome tweeters with silk surrounds. One 12" long-throw subwoofer coupled to two 12" infrasonic radiators.
    Efficiency: 92 dB
    Finish: piano-gloss black or golden cherry
    Retail: $1099 ea.

    but they r made more for movies then music, dont know if u can turn there rear speakers off for pure 2ch stereo?!?!?!?

    any ways dont hav much to say to ur original question
    just it seemed awesome speaker on paper in ur price range

    happy audditoning

    since u hav 2000$$$ u can look into B&W nutilus series i guess for some very musical sounding speakers

  18. #43
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    Made more for movies than music? I think that is more a personal choice but since some people (who admit they like direct radiators better and therefore should be considered biased) say they aren't as good for music as movies people who have never heard them before just take it as fact. I personally liked the more open soundstage of my BP7000SCs than B&W and other speakers in it's price range when listening to classical cds and rock. I try not to make comments about speakers that I haven't PERSONALLY listened to based on other people's comments. People who I have invited over to listen to music they like and who have gone to concerts said it is almost like being there again. Their preferences have ranged from latin, rock, new age, classical, rap (i don't know how i got through that one ) etc. The fact that they are equally good at movies is just a plus.
    Definitive Technology Fan, Owner and Advocate!!!!! never paying retail IS half the fun of buying audio products!!!! Good shopping!

  19. #44
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    its good to hear tht they r tht good

    my comment abt good for movie is purely based on ppl who say pure 2ch sterreo is best thru direct speakers as it is recorded tht way.

    otherwise i havnt listened them my self but heared a lot abt them
    and yes i too like the big sound stage like one from bose 901 :-))))

  20. #45
    Loving This kexodusc's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by RGA
    Peter did not say one could not integrate subs well. I'd like to see the quote. I know he doesn't like subs with his speakers - the mere fact he is working on them should tell you that he is not against subs. .
    I think the truth here is that Peter just doesn't like endorsing subs made by someone else in which he doesn't profit from. I'm sure somday Peter will design a decent sub with two 10" fostex woofers, a petrified wood cabinet finished in birch veneer, and a low powered SET amp or something similar, and the AN fanboys will be happy to adopt it.

    Quote Originally Posted by RGA
    I'm sorry if I don't like the sound for acoustic music and if that upsets you. If owned a Paradigm or B&W, Totem or PSB standmount then yes I would buy a Sub/eq/spl meter and test disc. Of course I would.
    Not sure I understand why you open the door to the possibility a sub could improve these speaker systems, but NOT AN's???? By the way, I always argue that acoustic music, with basses and tubas etc, benefit even more from a sub than amplified music.

    I honestly feel you'd do yourself a favor investing in a 12" sub kit from Parts Express or something similar. I built one for my parents a few months ago and it easily competes with the Paradigm's PW-2200, and my old SVS sub, despite being built for almost 1/2 the price, AND came with a Parametric EQ...HUGE IMPACT here...with the eq, it hands down trumps my subs, and even a much more expensive offering from Paradigm's Seismic line we tested...without it, it falls just short and is still a great value.

  21. #46
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    Quick question.

    Does a pipe organ count as acoustic music?

  22. #47
    RGA
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    Mark -

    Yes a Pipe Organ does so do synthesizers which are HEAVILY used in pop and rock recordings and which extend farther than ANY instrument out there. The bass design approach and driver action on AN speakers is different than Most if not all other boxed speakers currently on the market which is why virtually everyone who owns them talks about the way they pressurize a room. .
    Last edited by RGA; 10-04-2004 at 07:18 PM.

  23. #48
    Forum Regular Woochifer's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by kexodusc
    Not sure I understand why you open the door to the possibility a sub could improve these speaker systems, but NOT AN's???? By the way, I always argue that acoustic music, with basses and tubas etc, benefit even more from a sub than amplified music.
    I think you nailed it. That was the conclusion that I drew after setting up my subwoofer as well. While it made for some nice improvements to my movie viewing, where it really made a huge difference was with acoustic music. Acoustic bass in particular will highlight any inconstencies in the bass range because it freely straddles the frequencies below and above the crossover setting and it will extend down to the physical limits of a typical sub or full range speaker. Whenever I've heard a full range speaker set, the nonlinearities in the bass are fairly obvious and they change from room to room, so I know that it's more room than speaker induced.

    The only time I ever heard a full range speaker that really nailed the bass was when I heard the Dynaudio Evidence Master, but that setup was in a large room with plenty of free space on all sides. Every other full range speaker and most subwoofers I've heard over the years still have some kind of issue in the bass, and you really notice this with the acoustic bass where the notes will play along steadily until a particular note strikes and it plays far louder than the others. Peaks of that magnitude typically originate with the room, and can be predicted using basic calculations.

  24. #49
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    An affordable full range speaker (practical advice)

    buy some used Vandersteens 2 ce's for $600-$700 spend the rest on components
    Get a sub later if you think you need it.

  25. #50
    Loving This kexodusc's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Woochifer
    I think you nailed it. That was the conclusion that I drew after setting up my subwoofer as well. While it made for some nice improvements to my movie viewing, where it really made a huge difference was with acoustic music. Acoustic bass in particular will highlight any inconstencies in the bass range because it freely straddles the frequencies below and above the crossover setting and it will extend down to the physical limits of a typical sub or full range speaker. Whenever I've heard a full range speaker set, the nonlinearities in the bass are fairly obvious and they change from room to room, so I know that it's more room than speaker induced.

    The only time I ever heard a full range speaker that really nailed the bass was when I heard the Dynaudio Evidence Master, but that setup was in a large room with plenty of free space on all sides. Every other full range speaker and most subwoofers I've heard over the years still have some kind of issue in the bass, and you really notice this with the acoustic bass where the notes will play along steadily until a particular note strikes and it plays far louder than the others. Peaks of that magnitude typically originate with the room, and can be predicted using basic calculations.
    I've heard a few speakers really impress me in the bass department...I have to admit...the AN E's are really good. The Focus Audio FS-888 is right up there too...problem is they're both way out of my range...for the time being...but I think I can build clones or kits of these two for a fraction of the price. I'll look into that someday...I've still got 2 projects waiting for my attention I haven't had a chance to finish since the move.

    I find a good sub can really create good synergy with most systems. Most of the antagonists I meet are really just clinging to the old school, citing theories of marketing conspiracy, the curse of Home Theater etc, and refuse to even give subs a serious chance.
    I also have something of a preference for smaller woofers in most subs I've heard. I find 10" subs remain tight and accurate compared to the 12" cousins. Someday I might look into this a bit further to see if there's any reason why this might be or if I'm just imagining things.

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