As reported by BDA & news from IFA

[pixelthis]

Sir T.,

The books that I listed, while definitely political in nature, do a very good job of describing political collusion with the corporate sector. They each describe in detail how stock prices, white papers, research funding, corporate reports, media releases, statistics and news stories are manipulated, twisted, and realigned to meet a business goal. No they do not discuss BR and HD-DVD sales, many of them were written well before those were on the radar and they are focussed on much larger market segments. What they do describe, however, is a pattern of behavior that should call the "official" information into question.

In my reference to the Friedman / Chicago school of economics, the pattern is that changes, particularly revolutionary changes, create a sense of shock in society that allows corporations to further their agenda in ways that would in a slower, evolutionary progression be unacceptable (think the Pariot Act after 9/11/01 or Pinochet after 9/11/71). For a full explanation, read The Shock Doctrine. There's no point in discussing who or what caused the revolutionary changes, but what is significant is that this is a pattern of behavior that is a standard sequence of events, accepted as the way to get things done in business. This, by the way, is not unfounded, marginal, or really disputed in the literature.

While our discussion about BR & HD-DVD is on a much smaller scale, what we do have is a sudden reversal earlier this year of HD-DVD's lead in the market place. A small, tiny revolution, if you will, that many people attribute to the release of the PS3. What I am concerned about, and I don't think I am alone, is how much of what is being reported in the press, the sales figures, and even the Nielsen ratings is, if not hyperbole, at least marginally off by a few percentage points in order to force a dramatic change in the purchasing choices of the general public.

It also does not need to be a big fudging of the numbers. A few percentage points is perhaps all that is needed, if you consider all the many other factors that do come into play such as margins of error, misjudgment in the selection of the survey sample, and the emphasizing of favorable stats over less favorable ones. If you then add the unknowns related to returns, freebies/coupons, the black/gray market; the difference grows. Then just to add to the confusion, we throw in fervent online debates, that for the most part are from people who have already chosen their format of choice - as a result, the whole picture of what is really happening in this industry becomes very murky.

You mentioned the Nielsen ratings. I know they pride themselves on impartiality, but they have a few skeletons in their closet too (from a quick search online):

http://www.npr.org/templates/story/s...toryId=4864036
http://findarticles.com/p/articles/m...6/ai_n18349292
http://findarticles.com/p/articles/m...3/ai_n10023764

These are not necessarily reasons for dismissing them outright, I know, but it shows that every "official" source should be scrutinized. Since I believe that it only takes a few percentage points to tip the scales of a format war, I don't think it is too much of a stretch to suggest that even a 2-1 lead is not the whole picture.

To say that I am a paranoiac, that all this is in my head, or to marginalize my opinion is missing the point. The fact is that we don't know, we can't know, in this industry, if a format war is over (as Pixel contends), that the statistics are overwhelming correct, or that unforeseen future products/announcements/events will not reverse the 2-1 ratio. A year ago, I would have been arguing the same to people who professed that HD-DVD was the clear winner.

I can accept that the SACD/DVD-A scenario may not be an ideal fit for an example that may be similar in direction, if not scale, but you have to admit that there are some similarities worth noting. I certainly didn't have the insight into the events that followed the release of those formats (after all who has access to interview leading figures from Sony & Telarc), but it is still disturbing to me, and I think it should also be troubling to everyone else, that during that format war, the status of the industry and profits for both formats was by and large kept from the public. Was it collusion? Who knows? But it certainly leaves me a little more doubtful of the "official" story than I was before.

Again, I am not saying either format will win, I'm only urging caution at proclaiming a winner this early in the war. If I may say so, your early negative experience with HD-DVD makes me wonder where you would stand had that negative experience been with BR. Likewise, your ability to purchase new disks/players at a rate that most of us can only wish for, also makes you an unlikely typical consumer or commentator. Finally, you have to admit, that the zeal with which many BR proponents are proclaiming victory is in some way affecting the format war, if not making people feel just a bit uncomfortable.

Not only is the format war "over" I am suspicous as to weather or not it ever existed.
DIVX made rental stores take sides, and it spurred the sale of DVD.
If it weren't for this "format" war how many would know about HD on dvd? or care?
Both sides are incompatible, true, but discs are authored in a way that it would be easy to
convert masters to either formatAnd Toshibas entry is rediculousy weak, with what, one studio?
This "format war" might just be a big publicity stunt to stir interest.
Just a theory

[drseid]

Not only is the format war "over" I am suspicous as to weather or not it ever existed. Toshibas entry is rediculousy weak, with what, one studio?
This "format war" might just be a big publicity stunt to stir interest.
Just a theory

Only in your dreams, Pixel ol' boy. While I own both formats so it does not hurt me either way as to which wins out (if either ever does), I almost wish HD DVD wins just to see your reaction. Keep drinking that Kool Aid. :-)

---Dave

[Sir Terrence the Terrible]

Sir T.,

The books that I listed, while definitely political in nature, do a very good job of describing political collusion with the corporate sector. They each describe in detail how stock prices, white papers, research funding, corporate reports, media releases, statistics and news stories are manipulated, twisted, and realigned to meet a business goal. No they do not discuss BR and HD-DVD sales, many of them were written well before those were on the radar and they are focussed on much larger market segments. What they do describe, however, is a pattern of behavior that should call the "official" information into question.

Point one. There is no evidence of collusion here, which completely mitigates any need to mention any books, or any other factoid that alludes to collusion. Sources that collect data, collect data and distribute it to those who can manipulate it as they please. It is not the job(or desire) of a collector of information to change, alter, or obfuscate any information that is paid for. It would not be in their best interest to do so, especially when their financial health is at stake.

In my reference to the Friedman / Chicago school of economics, the pattern is that changes, particularly revolutionary changes, create a sense of shock in society that allows corporations to further their agenda in ways that would in a slower, evolutionary progression be unacceptable (think the Pariot Act after 9/11/01 or Pinochet after 9/11/71). For a full explanation, read The Shock Doctrine. There's no point in discussing who or what caused the revolutionary changes, but what is significant is that this is a pattern of behavior that is a standard sequence of events, accepted as the way to get things done in business. This, by the way, is not unfounded, marginal, or really disputed in the literature.

It may not be unfounded, but it sure in the heck is unrelated at this time. There is absolutely no correlation between 9/11 and sales of software

While our discussion about BR & HD-DVD is on a much smaller scale, what we do have is a sudden reversal earlier this year of HD-DVD's lead in the market place. A small, tiny revolution, if you will, that many people attribute to the release of the PS3. What I am concerned about, and I don't think I am alone, is how much of what is being reported in the press, the sales figures, and even the Nielsen ratings is, if not hyperbole, at least marginally off by a few percentage points in order to force a dramatic change in the purchasing choices of the general public.

More majoring in minors and paranoia. Nielson goes to a great deal of trouble to check and recheck their data. It is the reason my company, and thousands of other get their data from them. It is not their job to twist the data on behalf of others agenda, its their job to report it, and let the studio or manufacturer distort it as they please. Once again you are trying to dismiss things out of your lack of knowledge, or just to make a point.

It also does not need to be a big fudging of the numbers. A few percentage points is perhaps all that is needed, if you consider all the many other factors that do come into play such as margins of error, misjudgment in the selection of the survey sample, and the emphasizing of favorable stats over less favorable ones. If you then add the unknowns related to returns, freebies/coupons, the black/gray market; the difference grows. Then just to add to the confusion, we throw in fervent online debates, that for the most part are from people who have already chosen their format of choice - as a result, the whole picture of what is really happening in this industry becomes very murky.

More paranoia, more speculation, more non applicable, and more I am trying to disguise the fact that you don't know this industry that well.

You mentioned the Nielsen ratings. I know they pride themselves on impartiality, but they have a few skeletons in their closet too (from a quick search online):

http://www.npr.org/templates/story/s...toryId=4864036

No damn relation to HD DVD or bluray at all. Stop bringing garbage in from other industry's into this one. The broadcasters disagree with the way Neilson collects their data, because why? It changes the amount of income they receive. A difference of strategy, not a skeleton as you mention. Can someone say Inflammatory and pumped up?

http://findarticles.com/p/articles/m...6/ai_n18349292

Anyone can make a claim, but they have to prove it. Did they prove it? I don't see it, and you have provided nothing that say's they did. An allegation with no proof, oh, much like you have done time and time again in this argument. Still nothing to do with HD DVD and Bluray sales figures. Maybe you should write instructions on how to muddy clear water.

http://findarticles.com/p/articles/m...3/ai_n10023764

Again, nothing to do with HD DVD and Bluray sales.

These are not necessarily reasons for dismissing them outright, I know, but it shows that every "official" source should be scrutinized. Since I believe that it only takes a few percentage points to tip the scales of a format war, I don't think it is too much of a stretch to suggest that even a 2-1 lead is not the whole picture.

This has nothing to do with sales of DVD's, HD DVD's or Bluray. You have presented ABSOLUTELY NOTHING that directly ties anything to the subject at hand. Nielsons is a very large company, and it is expected that every little boy who has to compete with them has an issue. What happens in the broadcast industry is very different from what happens in the movie industry. Show me where sales figures from HD DVD and bluray have been found incorrect, and you have a point. Just finding out things about Neilsons doesn't make a point.

To say that I am a paranoiac, that all this is in my head, or to marginalize my opinion is missing the point.

Actually it IS the point!!!

The fact is that we don't know, we can't know, in this industry, if a format war is over (as Pixel contends), that the statistics are overwhelming correct, or that unforeseen future products/announcements/events will not reverse the 2-1 ratio. A year ago, I would have been arguing the same to people who professed that HD-DVD was the clear winner.

It would have been quite stupid to say a year ago HD DVD was the winner. Bluray was barely out of the starting gate a year ago. And the fact that HD DVD was so quickly overcomed by bluray shows that that would have been an impossible claim. Secondly, any future product that is to overtake HD DVD and Bluray, would have to have the support of the Studio's and CE manufacturers. There is no such product. Aside of any studio switching sides(something that is not going to be decided until after christmas at the least), there is no event that will change things. Paramount/Dreamworks went exclusive a month ago, and that hasn't changed sales figures very much, or if at all. Neither Universal nor Paramounts titles were even found in the top ten of all HDM disc media.

I can accept that the SACD/DVD-A scenario may not be an ideal fit for an example that may be similar in direction, if not scale, but you have to admit that there are some similarities worth noting.

If you want to major in minors, then I guess there are some points worth noting. I don't major in minors, do you?

I certainly didn't have the insight into the events that followed the release of those formats (after all who has access to interview leading figures from Sony & Telarc), but it is still disturbing to me, and I think it should also be troubling to everyone else, that during that format war, the status of the industry and profits for both formats was by and large kept from the public.

Bull. Sony is a publicly traded company, thus their profits are publicly listed. You can find quartly profit and yearly profits. Telarc is a private company, and thus does not have to publicly report its profits. Neither of this has any relationship to the war itself, because it is widely reported that SACD's could not even get close to CD sales. If this disturbs you, you don't have enough in your life to do.

Was it collusion? Who knows? But it certainly leaves me a little more doubtful of the "official" story than I was before.

Fits perfectly in your paranoid mode. Especially because it is irrelevant to the grand scheme of things.

Again, I am not saying either format will win, I'm only urging caution at proclaiming a winner this early in the war. If I may say so, your early negative experience with HD-DVD makes me wonder where you would stand had that negative experience been with BR. Likewise, your ability to purchase new disks/players at a rate that most of us can only wish for, also makes you an unlikely typical consumer or commentator. Finally, you have to admit, that the zeal with which many BR proponents are proclaiming victory is in some way affecting the format war, if not making people feel just a bit uncomfortable.

No one has proclaimed a winner here. NO ONE. What has been said here is the this is Bluray to lose. They have the CE support, the studio support(in terms of blockbuster hits in the last two to three years), and the infrastructure for continued growth. These are all items Toshiba DOES NOT have.

If BR let me down like HD DVD did, then I would not support it. That is not the way it played out, and cannot be included as part of this arguement.

My buying patterns have nothing to do with this debate, unless its your desire to dismiss me as well as the facts, figures, and reality.

Unfortunately nobody is all the uncomfortable. People are unaware. According to a survey that Best Buy recently did, people are confused as hell with this war. They believe that once you have a HDTV, you are getting High definition no matter what you watch. People are uninformed not uncomfortable. Though in this industry people have always at one point or another been confused and uninformed(see DVD at its beginning)

It is fairly obvious to me that you have not visited many other A/V websites than this. AVS is all HD DVD. Hometheater SPot....all HD DVD. Hidefinitiondigest.com is mostly HD DVD. If the truth be told, most all online websites have gone HD DVD crazy. So claims of victory have been coming from both sides, especially since the defection of Paramount. I guess this shows that you have not been paying very much attention to current events.

[pixelthis]

Only in your dreams, Pixel ol' boy. While I own both formats so it does not hurt me either way as to which wins out (if either ever does), I almost wish HD DVD wins just to see your reaction. Keep drinking that Kool Aid. :-)

---Dave

I'm not worried about it, never gonna happen.
So what brand of cement will you use when its time to make a boat anchor
out of your HD dvd player?

[PeruvianSkies]

Only in your dreams, Pixel ol' boy. While I own both formats so it does not hurt me either way as to which wins out (if either ever does), I almost wish HD DVD wins just to see your reaction. Keep drinking that Kool Aid. :-)

---Dave

It's no use. He's beyond the point of helping.

[pixelthis]

It's no use. He's beyond the point of helping.

And you don't realize you NEED help, mostly of the pschyotropic drug variety.
you're kinda like a little rat dog, jumping up somebodies leg

[nightflier]

Sir T.,

The books and links I posted deal with statistics and their reliability. You can dismiss my comments for being too broad all you want, but then with the same token I can dismiss yours for being too specific. This dogged focus on official figures only prevent seeing the forest for the trees. It's like they tell you in driver's ed, don't just look at the road right in front of your car. Your information about this topic is so focussed on those sales figures that you apparently can't fathom that there are other factors involved in determining the winner in this war. This format war does not exist in a vacuum as much as that would simplify things for some people, it's just not the way things are.

And don't even sit there and tell me that no one here has been calling a winner. As a matter of fact, Pixel has done nothing but. Look, I'm not going to sit here and debate this point for point forever. I do have a life. You want to see the world through tunnels, then you might find that you end up being wrong more often than you like.

I'll give you this, if in a year or two we find that BR wins out, I will admit it, but if VOD/Downloads marginalize BR and HD/DVD, I expect you to do the same. If that happens, I'll be sure to include a few links and articles making the comparison with the SACD-DVD-A format war, because you & I both know there'll be plenti of them.

[Sir Terrence the Terrible]

Sir T.,

The books and links I posted deal with statistics and their reliability. You can dismiss my comments for being too broad all you want, but then with the same token I can dismiss yours for being too specific. This dogged focus on official figures only prevent seeing the forest for the trees. It's like they tell you in driver's ed, don't just look at the road right in front of your car. Your information about this topic is so focussed on those sales figures that you apparently can't fathom that there are other factors involved in determining the winner in this war. This format war does not exist in a vacuum as much as that would simplify things for some people, it's just not the way things are.

The books and links you posted deal with statistics and their reliability, but do not focus on what is happening right now and today. This dogged focus on the only thing that is for sure in this war is designed to keep you from interjecting every irrelevant point you can conjure up and muddle up the discussion. Your dogged focus on believing nothing you have no access or knowledge on, keeps you bottled up in your own dogma.

I have been reading quite a few of your disagreements with other since I have been back to this forum. Your arguements tend to be unfocused, and replete with topics unrelated to the subject being discussed. You think that if you just throw things out there, something will get traction, and often times it does not.

You seemed to have all the answers as to how I come to a conclusion, but the problem is you really don't. Sales figures is just one part of the picture. Once again studio support, manufacturing support, and infrastucture support all played a roll in how I look at this arguement. That is hardly a pin point specific perspective, it looks rather broad to me.

And don't even sit there and tell me that no one here has been calling a winner. As a matter of fact, Pixel has done nothing but. Look, I'm not going to sit here and debate this point for point forever. I do have a life. You want to see the world through tunnels, then you might find that you end up being wrong more often than you like.

I am not Pixel am I? Just because my perspective is different from yours doesn't mean it is seeing through tunnels. I know more about this industry than you ever will. You don't work in it, and how it operates completely escapes you. Anyone building an argument based on unknowns doesn't have an arguement. You have built your entire argument on unknowns.

I'll give you this, if in a year or two we find that BR wins out, I will admit it, but if VOD/Downloads marginalize BR and HD/DVD, I expect you to do the same. If that happens, I'll be sure to include a few links and articles making the comparison with the SACD-DVD-A format war, because you & I both know there'll be plenti of them.

Its a stupid wager. We already know the infrastrucure for downloads is not there. We already know that service providers are clamping down on downloads because of the increased download traffic. The net as we live in it now is much like the airlines industry. It is over capacity. The next generation is high speed internet is still not developed, and what has been announced is WAY too expensive for joe6pack to afford. There is still no viable and affordable storage solution, and no viable way to get that information to the television. Let's face it, nobody is sitting in front of a computer looking at movies, movie industry survey's have already proven this over and over.

There is little or no comparison of this war to the SACD and DVD-A war. That kind of comparison is for people who do not have the capacity to think critically. If you dig below the surface, the wars could not be more different. You have had plenty of time to make this arguement stick, yet you have failed. The only comparison that could be made is that both wars confused the consumer, and guess what, wars do that to people. Look at the Iraq war now.

I know this is difficult for you, but you need to admit that you know not nearly enough information about the movie industry as it relates to downloads and internet capacity. Your arguements have been weak, and current events show that the picture you are trying to paint is false. VOD has been around a lot longer than both HD DVD and BR, and the market right now is no bigger. As I have stated earlier, both Comcast and Warner have already stated that in 2006 VOD has already flattened out and has essentially become stagnant. That is not the case for either bluray or HD DVD who market is still growing and progressing steadily but slowly.

Argue away, I am just going to turn your points into swiss cheese, they are that flimsy and uninformed.

[Smokey]

Its a stupid wager. We already know the infrastrucure for downloads is not there. We already know that service providers are clamping down on downloads because of the increased download traffic. The net as we live in it now is much like the airlines industry. It is over capacity. The next generation is high speed internet is still not developed, and what has been announced is WAY too expensive for joe6pack to afford.

Unfortunately your statement is true, but it may only apply in the USA.

The following artical from Washintonpost state that Broadband service im Japan is eight to 30 times as fast as in the United States -- and considerably cheaper. And South Korea and Europe are not too far behind Japan.



http://www.washingtonpost.com/wp-dyn...082801990.html

[PeruvianSkies]

I am not Pixel am I? Just because my perspective is different from yours doesn't mean it is seeing through tunnels. I know more about this industry than you ever will. You don't work in it, and how it operates completely escapes you. Anyone building an argument based on unknowns doesn't have an arguement. You have built your entire argument on unknowns.

Yep. He obviously does work IN the industry because only someone who worked IN the industry could be this big of a pompous a-hole.

[Mr Peabody]

PS, and anyone interested, here's the real story on Dracula. I'm surprised our resident insider Terrence didn't know this but he latched on to the internet DSD conspiracy.

News
With only a few days left until the much anticipated Blu-ray release of 'Bram Stoker's Dracula', the title is already causing confusion amongst the few lucky enough to get advanced copies. Early reviews have been mixed, and the web forums have erupted in consumer backlash, claiming Sony has destroyed the transfer. Thankfully, one of our Insiders was able to get the real story: this Blu-ray release reflects the wishes of director Francis Ford Coppola.

The masters used for the Superbit DVD release were not approved by Mr. Coppola, while the Blu-ray masters were
The color correction on the DVD was not done by direction of Mr. Coppola
For the latest master, a representative from Zoetrope was charged with checking the color correction to match the wishes of Mr. Coppola
The Blu-ray release was not accomplished quickly; it was carefully planned with full cooperation of Zoetrope

So when you sit down to watch this Blu-ray on Tuesday, remember that you are watching the absolute best video release of 'Bram Stoker's Dracula' ever created, and that it is exactly as the director intended. Any comparisons to previous video releases are invalid, as this release was approved by Mr. Coppola and his team at Zoetrope.

[PeruvianSkies]

PS, and anyone interested, here's the real story on Dracula. I'm surprised our resident insider Terrence didn't know this but he latched on to the internet DSD conspiracy.

News
With only a few days left until the much anticipated Blu-ray release of 'Bram Stoker's Dracula', the title is already causing confusion amongst the few lucky enough to get advanced copies. Early reviews have been mixed, and the web forums have erupted in consumer backlash, claiming Sony has destroyed the transfer. Thankfully, one of our Insiders was able to get the real story: this Blu-ray release reflects the wishes of director Francis Ford Coppola.

The masters used for the Superbit DVD release were not approved by Mr. Coppola, while the Blu-ray masters were
The color correction on the DVD was not done by direction of Mr. Coppola
For the latest master, a representative from Zoetrope was charged with checking the color correction to match the wishes of Mr. Coppola
The Blu-ray release was not accomplished quickly; it was carefully planned with full cooperation of Zoetrope

So when you sit down to watch this Blu-ray on Tuesday, remember that you are watching the absolute best video release of 'Bram Stoker's Dracula' ever created, and that it is exactly as the director intended. Any comparisons to previous video releases are invalid, as this release was approved by Mr. Coppola and his team at Zoetrope.

Well, I am curious. Coppola also approved the Criterion LD, so if there are differences between the LD and the BD....than it'll make for an interesting topic.

[pixelthis]

Unfortunately your statement is true, but it may only apply in the USA.

The following artical from Washintonpost state that Broadband service im Japan is eight to 30 times as fast as in the United States -- and considerably cheaper. And South Korea and Europe are not too far behind Japan.



http://www.washingtonpost.com/wp-dyn...082801990.html

The thing is, the 2 mb in the US is plenty.
When I miss a show on TV I go to the website, I watch television all of the time off of streaming video.
And maybe people aren't watching movies off of traditional "computers" but what you're missing is that most of todays sets have RGB inputs and can display a desktop well.
My 37in VIZIO makes an exelent computer monitor, a wireless keyboard and mouse and you're good to go.
You kmow how computer companies package the same machine and sell it in the sunday paper?
I saw basically the same dual core 300 gb 1gb ram dvd duallayer rec/player computer sold by several companies, all were under 500$ and had a 19in monitor, which in itself
is good for casual movie watching.
The first tv I had was 19in and was considered a good size back then..
Cable has been on a massive infrastructure improvement program for years, laying down the fibre optic. I am not saying its a big deal now, but LCD wasn't a big deal a few years ago, and now its gotten cheap and HDTV is selling for what would have been unbeleivable
just a year or two ago. I mean, an Olevia 32 in for 500$?
32IN LCD was a grand a year and a half ago.
All I AM SAYING is that in a rapidly changing world this stuff can jump up and bite ya in the butt is all.
I mean, Sony introduced a few months ago a paper thin TV screen that you can roll up!
Music companies didn't pay attention to downloading untill it was too late, and most marketing wonks are just that... wonks.
THIS IS A VERY DICEY time to be introducing anything new, and the market for HD on dvd just hasn't materialized, at least not enough for economies of scale to kick in

[Sir Terrence the Terrible]

Yep. He obviously does work IN the industry because only someone who worked IN the industry could be this big of a pompous a-hole.

Gee thanks PS. Please, in your vacuous state realize that there is a fine line between pompous and confident. I am okay with being called an a-hole, that just goes to show that I haven't changed one bit since I left. You have to love that kind of constistancy.

[Sir Terrence the Terrible]

PS, and anyone interested, here's the real story on Dracula. I'm surprised our resident insider Terrence didn't know this but he latched on to the internet DSD conspiracy.

I know far more about this issue than I want to, but since nobody ever mentioned it to me here, I have never discussed it. Had somebody asked me anything regarding this titles, I would have been able to answer quite precisely and with great detail.

News
With only a few days left until the much anticipated Blu-ray release of 'Bram Stoker's Dracula', the title is already causing confusion amongst the few lucky enough to get advanced copies. Early reviews have been mixed, and the web forums have erupted in consumer backlash, claiming Sony has destroyed the transfer. Thankfully, one of our Insiders was able to get the real story: this Blu-ray release reflects the wishes of director Francis Ford Coppola.

The masters used for the Superbit DVD release were not approved by Mr. Coppola, while the Blu-ray masters were
The color correction on the DVD was not done by direction of Mr. Coppola
For the latest master, a representative from Zoetrope was charged with checking the color correction to match the wishes of Mr. Coppola
The Blu-ray release was not accomplished quickly; it was carefully planned with full cooperation of Zoetrope

So when you sit down to watch this Blu-ray on Tuesday, remember that you are watching the absolute best video release of 'Bram Stoker's Dracula' ever created, and that it is exactly as the director intended. Any comparisons to previous video releases are invalid, as this release was approved by Mr. Coppola and his team at Zoetrope.

And to further add to this, and to show just how wrong early reviews have been on this, here are some tidbits;

1. The new transfer was supervised. This means that a representative from Zoetrope was charged we checking the color correction to make sure it met with the intentions of Mr. Coppola.

2. The new transfer and color correction were not done hastily. This title was carefully planned for BD and Sony was given the full cooperation of Zoetrope to get it done right.

3. The masters used for the DVD versions of this title were not endorsed by Mr. Coppola, the BD version is. The color correction on the DVD releases was not what Mr. Coppola wanted, regardless of the fact that the elevated brightness in some scenes on the DVD can reveal something not seen on the BD.

4. The answer print of the film is darker than the Blu-ray (answer prints are the approved color timed result that release prints are supposed to match).

5. Mr. Coppola intentionally shunned digital special effects techniques on this film in order to get a result that had the look of the classic horror films. The optical effects lead to some dirt and softening of the master.

Mr Peabody, never assume that I do not know something just because I don't mention it. I have been in contact and coodinating with the other insiders on bluray.com to counter the negative reviews on this title for the last three weeks. Since all of us studio insiders work together at bluray.com, I am prevy to alot of information that nobody knows about.

[Sir Terrence the Terrible]

Well, I am curious. Coppola also approved the Criterion LD, so if there are differences between the LD and the BD....than it'll make for an interesting topic.

Well, actually it wouldn't. You have to keep in mind the format, and its resolution. Part of the problem between the superbit DVD, previous LD releases, and the bluray release is an issue of what Mr. Coppola wants to be seen, and doesn't want to be seen. Because the resolution of both the superbit and LD disc is so much lower, the studio decided to raise the background levels to increase the perceived detail in the darker scenes. You can do this because as you go from foreground to background on these formats, objects are less distinct and clear. If the same practice was done for bluray, you would see far more detail going into the backgrounds than Mr. Coppola wants the viewer to see, hence the darker background on the bluray disc.

You can have Mr. Coppola approve both the Criterion LD and the Bluray release, and they both be different because each format offers different resolution abilities.

[Sir Terrence the Terrible]

Unfortunately your statement is true, but it may only apply in the USA.

The following artical from Washintonpost state that Broadband service im Japan is eight to 30 times as fast as in the United States -- and considerably cheaper. And South Korea and Europe are not too far behind Japan.



http://www.washingtonpost.com/wp-dyn...082801990.html

Thanks Smokey,

I am aware of the state of internet speeds everywhere else, but my arguements are pretty much confined to here in the US.

The Irony of your information fully supports what I have been saying. The fact that you have such high speeds in Japan would make you think that downloading movies must be big there. Well, interestingly enough, the market for bluray disc is larger than the market for downloading movies in Japan, even with the higher internet speeds.

[PeruvianSkies]

Well, actually it wouldn't. You have to keep in mind the format, and its resolution. Part of the problem between the superbit DVD, previous LD releases, and the bluray release is an issue of what Mr. Coppola wants to be seen, and doesn't want to be seen. Because the resolution of both the superbit and LD disc is so much lower, the studio decided to raise the background levels to increase the perceived detail in the darker scenes. You can do this because as you go from foreground to background on these formats, objects are less distinct and clear. If the same practice was done for bluray, you would see far more detail going into the backgrounds than Mr. Coppola wants the viewer to see, hence the darker background on the bluray disc.

You can have Mr. Coppola approve both the Criterion LD and the Bluray release, and they both be different because each format offers different resolution abilities.

I am not talking about RESOLUTION...I am talking about COLOR, mr. insider. Or shall I call is COLOUR for the sake of being cool like Jean Luc Godard.

[Sir Terrence the Terrible]

I am not talking about RESOLUTION...I am talking about COLOR, mr. insider. Or shall I call is COLOUR for the sake of being cool like Jean Luc Godard.

The great thing about the english langauge is that those who are proficient in it know how to be specific enough to ask the right question with the right words. It is obvious that you didn't use the right words, or you would have gotten the answer you desire.

Colour is used in Europe, not the United States. So if you REALLY want to be cool, be appropriate and a little less flippant, we are both adults here(or at least I can confirm I am). Save the snideness for Pixelthis

The color space of the LD and bluray is different. Bluray can capture a much wider gamut of colors than LD can. The master was different on the LD from the Bluray disc. So color wise they could still be a little different, and have the approval of Mr Coppola.

[PeruvianSkies]

The great thing about the english langauge is that those who are proficient in it know how to be specific enough to ask the right question with the right words. It is obvious that you didn't use the right words, or you would have gotten the answer you desire.

Colour is used in Europe, not the United States. So if you REALLY want to be cool, be appropriate and a little less flippant, we are both adults here(or at least I can confirm I am).

The color space of the LD and bluray is different. Bluray can capture a much wider gamut of colors than LD can. The master was different on the LD from the Bluray disc. So color wise they could still be a little different, and have the approval of Mr Coppola.

Enough to turn green to orange? Or orange to green? That's the disaster with the basic DVD as well as the Superbit DVD....I am curious to see if the Blu-ray has the correct colors..I trust that they do, but it's always nice to see for yourself.

[nightflier]

OK, first of all, I prefaced almost every one of my posts with respect to your tenure here - I certainly never insulted you. I also never said that I could compete with your statistics and figures. I mean for someone who has such a close, cozy relationship with industry insiders, I would have to be sleeping someone to know more - no thanks and more power to you.

What is striking though, and I've also looked at your long-winded prosaic posts, is that you always have to be right. I don't think there is a single one in all those 1900+ posts, where you admit to be wrong. I almost think that your inability to admit to even the possibility that there might be just a slight flaw in your world-view, would bring the whole house of cards down. There's a term in psychology for such rigidity, and I think where I've struck a nerve is in questioning its stability. After all, what I'm questioning is the validity of all this official or insider information. If that is questioned, then there is nothing left for you to stand on.

You obviously don't like the current administration and the direction of the war in Iraq, but aren't they just as exemplary of this type of rigidity? Question just one official statistic, event or factoid, and it could bring down everything - it's the domino theory all over again - it got us real far in Vietnam. The problem with this approach is that it makes for a whole lot of information to control. You almost have to establish a dictatorship. Such systems abhor anything outside of a dogmatic black-white / good-evil world view. Orwellian.

Now regarding the BR & HD-DVD format war, I believe and I maintain with confidence that:

1. The stats could be ever so slightly off
2. It doesn't take much variance to swing the pendulum in the format war

The first point is just a nature of statistics - there are political (yes, even in this industry), economic, mathematical, and procedural reasons for this. This should not be up for debate. If it is, then we have nothing more to talk about because you would be arguing against all of academia. The second point is perhaps where we'll have to agree to disagree. I think there are enough examples in the history of economics to suggest that it really doesn't take more than a tiny percentage to shift things, especially when it's made into a PR mantra by one side.

Well let's see how that plays out...

The books and links you posted deal with statistics and their reliability, but do not focus on what is happening right now and today.

Actually, the books do extrapolate to today. You may want to pick one of them up check out what is being said. It is quite riveting.

This dogged focus on the only thing that is for sure in this war is designed to keep you from interjecting every irrelevant point you can conjure up and muddle up the discussion. Your dogged focus on believing nothing you have no access or knowledge on, keeps you bottled up in your own dogma.

So basically you are reducing every one of my examples and links to "muddle." I've been trying to show that the "official" info isn't the whole picture. For that I have to look outside of the "official" info, don't I? But you dismiss it because it's outside of the "official" story. Well if you only wish to see what is "official" then how is that not tunnel vision? How is that the whole picture?

So lemme get this straight, cause it's a biggy. You establish the boundaries of what we can include, the stuff that only you seem to know well, and then you dismiss everything outside of it. So anything anyone else brings up is outside of those boundaries and thus "muddle." You are essentially pre-screening the topics for "relevance." That sounds more like a presidential press conference to me than anything else. Look, you can go on jabbing at me and getting hot under the collar, but you have to be able to consider what is outside of your boundaries. If you don't, then there can't be a meaningful discussion about this topic, or any topic.

You obviously have some seniority here, and a reputation for thoroughness, maybe even respect. Then show us that you can be magnanimous, that you do have that reputation for a good reason. As it is right now, you're not. And the more you get upset, the more you show of your true colors. " 'Left white & blue somewhere way back and but a tiny red loin cloth to cover up the privates" (forgot what movie that's from, but it does seem to apply here).

I have been reading quite a few of your disagreements with other since I have been back to this forum. Your arguements tend to be unfocused, and replete with topics unrelated to the subject being discussed. You think that if you just throw things out there, something will get traction, and often times it does not.

Really, you mean the discussion about the effect that the movie SuperSize Me has had on the fast food industry? Yes, I noticed you poked your head in there, and what of it? In that discussion I'm having pretty much the same discussion as I'm having here. I'm arguing agains someone who has dismissed everything I've presented as examples (outside of their boundaries - sound familiar?). Maybe it's because I'm arguing the obvious - that the movie had an impact. Anyhow, that's another topic.

Or are you referring to the many discussions about, guess what, this format war? I've disagreed with a few people, Wooch, Pixel, etc., but I must say, that despite the disagreements over BR / HD-DVD, they have been far more respectful and have actually taken the time to read what I've posted. These forums are here to discuss topics. Dismissing everything someone presents without reading them is the opposite of what we are here for. People want to read what others have to say - stifling decent is draconian and counter-productive. You may have seniority here, but that does not give you the right to dictate what is relevant to a discussion.

You seemed to have all the answers as to how I come to a conclusion, but the problem is you really don't. Sales figures is just one part of the picture. Once again studio support, manufacturing support, and infrastucture support all played a roll in how I look at this arguement. That is hardly a pin point specific perspective, it looks rather broad to me.

Yes, but they are still "official" sources and thus represent an interest. Moreover they are statistics and are inherently unreliable to some degree, however small. They do not represent a complete picture - one that nobody, not even you with all your connections - can rely 100% on. While you can say that your sources are from many different areas within the industry, doesn't that weaken their reliability as well? After all, it increases the potential for variability within the "official" pool so that even that is not reliable.

I am not Pixel am I?

You said specifically: no one. Pixel is someone.

Just because my perspective is different from yours doesn't mean it is seeing through tunnels.

Well if my perspective is outside of your boundaries, and yours is inside, and we're talking about a tunnel, then I fail to see your logic.

I know more about this industry than you ever will. You don't work in it, and how it operates completely escapes you.

That does sound Pompous to me. Hey, your words. I'm not claiming to know more than everyone else.

Anyone building an argument based on unknowns doesn't have an arguement. You have built your entire argument on unknowns.

Obviously you don't know a lick about logic. My argument is that the unknowns may be more significant than the knowns. Yes, it may be uncomfortable for you, but you'll have to face it eventually.

Its a stupid wager.

If it's such a stupid wager, what's the fear in a commitment? I'm willing to admit that I was wrong. I guess you just can't do that. Wonder why? Shaky foundation?

There is little or no comparison of this war to the SACD and DVD-A war. That kind of comparison is for people who do not have the capacity to think critically. If you dig below the surface, the wars could not be more different. You have had plenty of time to make this arguement stick, yet you have failed.

If I failed, why are we still here? There are comparisons to be made, I've made them. I admit that my info is not as "official" as yours, but again, let's wait and see what the media says about this if BR & HD-DVD are relegated to niche markets. I'm not saying that it will happen that way, I'm only saying if it will. I can wait. Can you?

The only comparison that could be made is that both wars confused the consumer, and guess what, wars do that to people. Look at the Iraq war now.

No they don't. Wars are based in black and white, right and wrong, good and evil. You can't get your soldiers to fight or the public to go along with such senseless slaughter otherwise. Confusion is what ends wars. You really should pick up a history book sometime instead of those "official" sources.

I know this is difficult for you, but you need to admit that you know not nearly enough information about the movie industry as it relates to downloads and internet capacity.

Not hard at all. I've admitted that I don't have your insight in just about everyone of my posts. And about the internet and its capacity, I wouldn't be so sure about how little I may or may not know. I certainly know enough not to be so absolute as you. Maybe you're sill upset about that Netscape stock you owned?

Your arguements have been weak, and current events show that the picture you are trying to paint is false. VOD has been around a lot longer than both HD DVD and BR, and the market right now is no bigger. As I have stated earlier, both Comcast and Warner have already stated that in 2006 VOD has already flattened out and has essentially become stagnant. That is not the case for either bluray or HD DVD who market is still growing and progressing steadily but slowly.

If you are so "confident" instead of "pompous" then why the fear of a little wager? Put up or shut up.

Argue away, I am just going to turn your points into swiss cheese, they are that flimsy and uninformed.

Well, yes after all, when it comes to determining what we're going to talk about, you are the decider...

[PeruvianSkies]

OK, first of all, I prefaced almost every one of my posts with respect to your tenure here - I certainly never insulted you. I also never said that I could compete with your statistics and figures. I mean for someone who has such a close, cozy relationship with industry insiders, I would have to be sleeping someone to know more - no thanks and more power to you.

What is striking though, and I've also looked at your long-winded prosaic posts, is that you always have to be right. I don't think there is a single one in all those 1900+ posts, where you admit to be wrong. I almost think that your inability to admit to even the possibility that there might be just a slight flaw in your world-view, would bring the whole house of cards down. There's a term in psychology for such rigidity, and I think where I've struck a nerve is in questioning its stability. After all, what I'm questioning is the validity of all this official or insider information. If that is questioned, then there is nothing left for you to stand on.

You obviously don't like the current administration and the direction of the war in Iraq, but aren't they just as exemplary of this type of rigidity? Question just one official statistic, event or factoid, and it could bring down everything - it's the domino theory all over again - it got us real far in Vietnam. The problem with this approach is that it makes for a whole lot of information to control. You almost have to establish a dictatorship. Such systems abhor anything outside of a dogmatic black-white / good-evil world view. Orwellian.

Now regarding the BR & HD-DVD format war, I believe and I maintain with confidence that:

1. The stats could be ever so slightly off
2. It doesn't take much variance to swing the pendulum in the format war

The first point is just a nature of statistics - there are political (yes, even in this industry), economic, mathematical, and procedural reasons for this. This should not be up for debate. If it is, then we have nothing more to talk about because you would be arguing against all of academia. The second point is perhaps where we'll have to agree to disagree. I think there are enough examples in the history of economics to suggest that it really doesn't take more than a tiny percentage to shift things, especially when it's made into a PR mantra by one side.

Well let's see how that plays out...



Actually, the books do extrapolate to today. You may want to pick one of them up check out what is being said. It is quite riveting.



So basically you are reducing every one of my examples and links to "muddle." I've been trying to show that the "official" info isn't the whole picture. For that I have to look outside of the "official" info, don't I? But you dismiss it because it's outside of the "official" story. Well if you only wish to see what is "official" then how is that not tunnel vision? How is that the whole picture?

So lemme get this straight, cause it's a biggy. You establish the boundaries of what we can include, the stuff that only you seem to know well, and then you dismiss everything outside of it. So anything anyone else brings up is outside of those boundaries and thus "muddle." You are essentially pre-screening the topics for "relevance." That sounds more like a presidential press conference to me than anything else. Look, you can go on jabbing at me and getting hot under the collar, but you have to be able to consider what is outside of your boundaries. If you don't, then there can't be a meaningful discussion about this topic, or any topic.

You obviously have some seniority here, and a reputation for thoroughness, maybe even respect. Then show us that you can be magnanimous, that you do have that reputation for a good reason. As it is right now, you're not. And the more you get upset, the more you show of your true colors. " 'Left white & blue somewhere way back and but a tiny red loin cloth to cover up the privates" (forgot what movie that's from, but it does seem to apply here).



Really, you mean the discussion about the effect that the movie SuperSize Me has had on the fast food industry? Yes, I noticed you poked your head in there, and what of it? In that discussion I'm having pretty much the same discussion as I'm having here. I'm arguing agains someone who has dismissed everything I've presented as examples (outside of their boundaries - sound familiar?). Maybe it's because I'm arguing the obvious - that the movie had an impact. Anyhow, that's another topic.

Or are you referring to the many discussions about, guess what, this format war? I've disagreed with a few people, Wooch, Pixel, etc., but I must say, that despite the disagreements over BR / HD-DVD, they have been far more respectful and have actually taken the time to read what I've posted. These forums are here to discuss topics. Dismissing everything someone presents without reading them is the opposite of what we are here for. People want to read what others have to say - stifling decent is draconian and counter-productive. You may have seniority here, but that does not give you the right to dictate what is relevant to a discussion.



Yes, but they are still "official" sources and thus represent an interest. Moreover they are statistics and are inherently unreliable to some degree, however small. They do not represent a complete picture - one that nobody, not even you with all your connections - can rely 100% on. While you can say that your sources are from many different areas within the industry, doesn't that weaken their reliability as well? After all, it increases the potential for variability within the "official" pool so that even that is not reliable.



You said specifically: no one. Pixel is someone.



Well if my perspective is outside of your boundaries, and yours is inside, and we're talking about a tunnel, then I fail to see your logic.



That does sound Pompous to me. Hey, your words. I'm not claiming to know more than everyone else.



Obviously you don't know a lick about logic. My argument is that the unknowns may be more significant than the knowns. Yes, it may be uncomfortable for you, but you'll have to face it eventually.



If it's such a stupid wager, what's the fear in a commitment? I'm willing to admit that I was wrong. I guess you just can't do that. Wonder why? Shaky foundation?



If I failed, why are we still here? There are comparisons to be made, I've made them. I admit that my info is not as "official" as yours, but again, let's wait and see what the media says about this if BR & HD-DVD are relegated to niche markets. I'm not saying that it will happen that way, I'm only saying if it will. I can wait. Can you?



No they don't. Wars are based in black and white, right and wrong, good and evil. You can't get your soldiers to fight or the public to go along with such senseless slaughter otherwise. Confusion is what ends wars. You really should pick up a history book sometime instead of those "official" sources.



Not hard at all. I've admitted that I don't have your insight in just about everyone of my posts. And about the internet and its capacity, I wouldn't be so sure about how little I may or may not know. I certainly know enough not to be so absolute as you. Maybe you're sill upset about that Netscape stock you owned?



If you are so "confident" instead of "pompous" then why the fear of a little wager? Put up or shut up.



Well, yes after all, when it comes to determining what we're going to talk about, you are the decider...

Wow. I knew there was a reason I didn't like those insiders! Looks like we now have 2 people currently posting away on this site that refuse to acknowledge any chinks in their armor.

[L.J.]

Wow. I knew there was a reason I didn't like those insiders! Looks like we now have 2 people currently posting away on this site that refuse to acknowledge any chinks in their armor.

Dude, why don't you stop hatin'.

[PeruvianSkies]

Dude, why don't you stop hatin'.

Why don't you stop telling me what to do?

[L.J.]

Why don't you stop telling me what to do?

Interesting that you start your stupid PS vs PX catfight thread to try and call out PX when you do the same thing. Troll Killer? Please.