As reported by BDA & news from IFA

[kexodusc]

Now you know!

Seek help!

[L.J.]

Now you know!

Pretty sad BS....oops, I mean PS.

Perhaps you should read over the definition of a troll again.

Here is the definition of a troll.
"someone who intentionally posts controversial or contrary messages in an on-line community such as an on-line discussion forum with the intention of baiting users into an argumentative response".

This describes you and your actions pretty well.

I think mr. self proclaimed trollkiller needs to think of a new name for his self. Oh wait, you've done that a few times already.....nevermind.

[Sir Terrence the Terrible]

I NEVER SAID BLU-RAY WAS THE DISASTER, BUT THERE HAVE BEEN MORE NEGATIVE REVIEWS ON THE BLU-RAY FOR BRAM STOKER THAN POSITIVE ONES.

Maybe because the idiots are doing exactly what you are doing, trying to compare all of the other releases to this one. Its not possible because Mr. Coppola didn't approve the other releases.

SO WHY DOES THE LASERDISC SAY DIRECTORS APPROVED EDITION?

He approved the printmaster the LD was encoded from, and the editing choices, but he didn't approve the transfer itself.

THEN WHY DOES IT LOOK LIKE CRAP AND NOT LIKE IT DID IN THEATERS?

You obviously didn't read Robert Harris's post did you? First, Theaters are not perfect in their presentations. The bulb in the projector could have been too dim, and not meet SPMTE standards for light output, or it could have been improperly calibrated too bright as well. Second, video can never produce what is exactly on film, never. The colorspace is different, and no video format with 10bit colorspace can ever capture all the color gamut on film. Thirdly, video is usually sourced from a digitally scanned capture. Whether it is 2k or 4k, it cannot transfer the organic nature of film.

It does not look like crap. According to Paidgeek a Sony Home video executive, and Robert Harris who have viewed the printmaster the bluray was strucked from, the bluray is as closed to the film as video will allow. That cannot be said for any of the other formats release.

I FIGURED YOU WOULD PLAY THE RAH CARD ON ME AT SOME POINT, I CAN GOOGLE AND READ WHAT OTHERS SAY AS WELL. YOU MIGHT BE SURPRISED AT WHAT I KNOW ABOUT FILM HISTORY.

Robert doesn't have to google and read what other say, he has enough knowledge and experience in the industry that people google to read what he has to say.

I would be surprised if you know anything about film, because if you did, I would not have to explain this stuff to you.

CAN ALL OF THESE REVIEWERS BE WRONG? ARE THEY ALL IN CAHOOTS TO MAKE BLU-RAY LOOK BAD? NOPE. THEY ARE ALL MAKING THE SAME STATEMENTS ABOUT THE BLU-RAY...EXPLAIN WHY THE DOCUMENTARY LOOKS BETTER ON THE BLU-RAY THAN THE MOVIE PRESENTATION? EXPLAIN WHY IT DOESN'T LOOK THE WAY IT WAS IN THEATERS.

Yes, all of the reviewers can be wrong. Reviewers are not experts, they are hobbist just like you and I. The can only review what they see, and provide a SUBJECTIVE opinion on that. Anyone can provide a subjective opinion of what they see, but very few have access to the printmaster for an objective comparison. None of the reviewer I have read on this issue have that access, and it has been proven time and time again that our auditory and visual memory threshold decreases rapidly over time. So the truth is, most cannot even remember what the theatrical print looked like in the theater, or if the theater was even properly calibrated. Its theatrical releases was in 1997, do you really think a memory has the capacity to make objective comparison on a film some ten years later?? Not according to science.

Video cannot look like film, never, ever. I have already explained why.

Remember that your opinion of the quality of this movie is seen through somebody elses eyes. I seriously doubt whether you or your friend has even seen the bluray copy, as it just got released this tuesday. Was this persons set, or the set he viewed it on properly ISF calibrated? I doubt this as well, since many do not go through the trouble or the expense of doing so.

Unless you have the approve printmaster to compare the bluray copy to, you really don't know whether the movie looks like crap or not. According to the sources who have seen it, the bluray copy comes as close as video will allow.

[Mr Peabody]

Anyone know if the Jungle Book was released on Blu-ray as it was supposed to. They didn't mention Blu-ray on the TV commercial. They usually do when they come out at the same time. Original reports were that both would be released on the same day.

Movies like this are a tough call, do you buy Blu-ray and the kids only watch when dad is there, or do you buy it on DVD so it can be played any where in the house and auto. Even if Blu-ray was to win it would take a long time to switch over all players. I wish they would do a deal where you could get both formats at a slight discount, because in this scenario I believe DVD gets the nudge for now. In this case a dual format disc wouldn't work, I'd be afraid of getting one side scratched up.

[Sir Terrence the Terrible]

Anyone know if the Jungle Book was released on Blu-ray as it was supposed to. They didn't mention Blu-ray on the TV commercial. They usually do when they come out at the same time. Original reports were that both would be released on the same day.

Movies like this are a tough call, do you buy Blu-ray and the kids only watch when dad is there, or do you buy it on DVD so it can be played any where in the house and auto. Even if Blu-ray was to win it would take a long time to switch over all players. I wish they would do a deal where you could get both formats at a slight discount, because in this scenario I believe DVD gets the nudge for now. In this case a dual format disc wouldn't work, I'd be afraid of getting one side scratched up.

HD DVD tried to conquer this problem with the combo disc DVD on one side, HD DVD on the other. They had too many problems with them playing on HD DVD players. Warner has finally gave up on it, and it looks like Universal may as well.

This has not really been a problem for me. Most of my bluray collection is upgrades from my DVD collection. So I have one I can travel with, and the other for my hometheater. Obviously for new releases I get the bluray, so travelling with new releases is currently impossible.

Hopefully they'll have a bluray portable soon.

As far as Jungle book, Disney decided against it because catalog titles sales are not doing that well at the moment. The only catalog titles Disney plans to release are titles that have done well at the box office, and on DVD. Cars fits that perfectly.

[Feanor]

... from this desultory polemic.

[L.J.]

Movies like this are a tough call, do you buy Blu-ray and the kids only watch when dad is there, or do you buy it on DVD so it can be played any where in the house and auto. Even if Blu-ray was to win it would take a long time to switch over all players. I wish they would do a deal where you could get both formats at a slight discount, because in this scenario I believe DVD gets the nudge for now. In this case a dual format disc wouldn't work, I'd be afraid of getting one side scratched up.

I'm kinda in the same situation but I do have a pretty large DVD collections so there's plenty to choose from. Just the other day my wife tried to play a BR in the DVD player up front. Any animation I have double dipped on, the DVD copy goes to the kids room or up front. If it's a new release than I'll buy it on BR and we just all watch it together. One thing I've done is buy about 20 or so DVD's that my kids just keep in their room at all times or for the car.

[Mr Peabody]

LJ, do you think animation benefits as much from Blu-ray as a regular film? I haven't watched many animated movies on BR but the couple I have seen the difference didn't seem to be as noticeable. The SD was upsampled but the difference is still apparent on regular filmed movies. BR animation looks sharper and more color saturation over SD. It's probably not possible to draw the kind of depth and other detail of reality.

[L.J.]

LJ, do you think animation benefits as much from Blu-ray as a regular film? I haven't watched many animated movies on BR but the couple I have seen the difference didn't seem to be as noticeable. The SD was upsampled but the difference is still apparent on regular filmed movies. BR animation looks sharper and more color saturation over SD. It's probably not possible to draw the kind of depth and other detail of reality.

Guess it depends, but mostly I would say yes. After getting my PS3, The Wild was one of the first BR titles I got. My wife and I were pretty impressed with how good it looked. Same with Happy Feet. Excellent PQ and easy demo matl to show off the system, IMO. I had guests over and they couldn't get over how good it looked. We watched the SD DVD of Over the Hedge a month or so ok with the kids. It happened to come on HBO HD the next day and my wife and I noticed an immediate difference in PQ.

One point I wanted to bring up though, is the price difference of DVD vs BR. I do alot of bargain shopping for movies and have found that in some cases, the difference in price was only a few dollars. Especially when you compare the price of Special Edition or 2 disc sets which can run from $19-$22. This was the case with Happy Feet, where the special edition was $22 vs $24 for the BR version. Same with Night at the Museum. In most cases, I feel that the difference in price is worth the improvement in PQ & SQ, but I'm also very selective at what I buy, especially if the price for the BR over DVD version is pretty high. There are a few titles that I'm waiting for the price to come down or catch a good sale before I buy.

I have done a few comparisons and there are title's that didn't seem to offer much over the SD version. Dinosaur is one that comes to mind. I recently watched the BR and compared it to my SD copy and didn't see enough improvement to double dip on that title. I wish I could do side by side comparisons.

Cars should be interesting, the DVD version has excellent PQ & SQ and I'm curious to see how the BR version will turn out, but odds are I won't double dip on it. New releases or titles I don't already own are another story though.

[pixelthis]

LJ, do you think animation benefits as much from Blu-ray as a regular film? I haven't watched many animated movies on BR but the couple I have seen the difference didn't seem to be as noticeable. The SD was upsampled but the difference is still apparent on regular filmed movies. BR animation looks sharper and more color saturation over SD. It's probably not possible to draw the kind of depth and other detail of reality.

I saw teen mutant nijas, and 300, AND IF ANYTHING THEY LOOKED BETTER than
the "live" offerings I gandared.
Talledega nights, etc.
The live discs even led me to beleive this is an "evolutionary", not "revolutionary"
format. Wasn't impressed at all.

[PeruvianSkies]

Rather than counter your quotes and make this thread even longer than it needs to be I wanted to start fresh and just mention a few things with regards to your previous reply to what I had said....

Video cannot look like film? Sure. It never will, but that is the reference for what the film should look like and if the Blu-ray or any other format doesn't look like that...then it's not a good transfer. Obviously formats have limitations that make it challenging to look like the theatrical experience.

So if the approved printmaster is the reference point for everything and the Blu-ray (or other formats) look like junk, but it's "accurate" to the printmaster than we are just suppose to deal with that and even if the director approved it, but the audience thinks it looks terrible then what? People knew that the Superbit had issues and they don't need to see the printmaster to know that it had color issues all over the place.

I find it a bit too coincidental that majority of the people that have seen the Blu-ray are making the same complaints. Or are they all in on some conspiracy together? While I know that some are comparing it to the other formats, most are saying that the Blu-ray is indeed superior to the previous formats, but the one interesting point is how the transfer looks better in the documentary excerpts on the Blu-ray over the actual film presentation. What happened there?????

It appears that a representative from Zoetrope went to approve the transfer, not Coppola himself...at least that is the explanation that I see online. People who do reviews (while they might not be so-called professionals) know when they see a good transfer, despite whatever limitations they might have to the original source material. Obviously most people don't have access to things for comparison, but it doesn't take a genius to look at the DVD presentation of Coppola's ONE FROM THE HEART and know that it's a good transfer.

Until I see the Blu-ray disc firsthand I shall reserve any more specific comments, but at this point there seems to be a divide with fans and whether it's accurate or not and/or directors approved, that doesn't seem to be convincing people at this point. I guess what it boils down to is whether people want a directors approved transfer that is accurate, but they don't personal prefer the transfer or just deal with it and wait for something else to come along, it's not like that film was Coppola's greatest moment.

[nightflier]

This is stupid. The betamax...The laserdisc...The CD format...The DVD format...There has always been a consistant and persistant chance that a major calamity could have destroyed all of these technologies chance in the consumer market, but it didn't happen....

You're agreeing that these technologies all stumbled to some degree because of political events right? Isn't that what I was saying about political or catastrophic events? They could have an impact. I never said that they would destroy the format, now did I? Yes, the formats from your examples survived, but they did stumble and that is precesely what I'm talking about.

If we go back to what has already been established in this thread: that this holiday season was crucial and that the shift of a single studio could tip the balance in this format war, then it is just as likely that either BR or HDDVD could become a niche product. I never said that a political of catastrophic event was going to kill off either format, I only said it could tip the balance.

Disc replication is a regional thing. If a earthquake hits the pioneer replication plant in the greater Los Angeles area, then it is likely the replication plant in Tara Haute could pick up the chore.

Perhaps this is true for the disks, but if we're talking about players, that's a whole different ball of wax. The players are comming from countries that are more unstable/fragile than the US and the cost/profit margins are much more volatile in those countries. The risk to the industry due to instability or another tsunami is much greater. Again, I'm not saying this would destroy the industry, only that it could affect price this holiday season.

Being able to purchase players for both format isn't odd, your whole perspective on this is.

Spoken like a true over-consumer. It's odd, it's expensive and it's extravagant. It's the kind of thing that the average American will not do, even if some of the people here do. You may think otherwise, but I don't believe it. If you're so sure that the majority of consumers will buy both formats, I'd like to see where you get that idea. Let's see some sales figures, or a survey that was done on the subject. And given how small the HD market share is, it's even more odd.

And your perspective is so far out of the movie industry, you know nothing about it, even on a basic level. I mean come on, players fall into the sea, and all of a sudden the price goes up.

Yes. What's so hard to understand about that? If a critical component is in short supply, the complete product that depends on it is either delayed or the price goes up. I've seen this happen over and over again in the computer industry, so why would that be strange in the electronics industry? Actually, I can remember reading about CD players being affected by a shortage in tray loading motors by Phillips. Again, I'm only saying that this would matter in the unique situation of this holiday season, where either format could loose critical sales because of something like this. I'm sure Sony would be pretty irritated if in November the chips for it's PS3's video processor where in short supply. Would it impact the BR/HDDVD format war? Perhaps not, but who knows?

Aside from being an employee of a bluray exclusive studio...

So how does this not make you a shill for the BR camp?

The vast majority will not have to buy a player from each format, the war will be long over before that would happen.

It will be over? When? Can I quote you on that?

Where did I say that the people I know who bought both formats are reviewers? Dave right here is not a review, he has both.

I presumed from the way you described them that they were reviewers. I guess I misunderstood. With all the wordy doublespeak, it isn't always easy to understand what you mean (kind of like when you say you don't have a vested interest, but you do work for a BR only studio).

Why would Samsung want to release a dual format player if there was no market for them? Apparently there is, or they would be wasting their investment.

Tsk, tsk. Making mountains out of molehills again. I did not say there was no market for dual format players. I said that the market wasn't very significant. I meant this mostly in reference to the LG's lukewarm reception. I'm pretty sure I said that the Samsung player was still unknown to me. You're twisting around what I said. Very uncharacteristic for such a stickler for details as yourself.

LG player is not selling becuase it is not a certified HD DVD player.

So you know that this is why it's not selling? How do you know that? What inside information do you have that can shed some light on that revelation? Do you have some stats to back that one up? Does the average consumer even care about the certification? Or is it because the reviewers have given it their thumbs down? Well which is it?

Some one throw this record away, its broken

It seems you're the only one that doesn't want to hear that record - you know, the one where you actually back what you said about BR winning this war.

I would rather have a new Porsche or a new Honda Insight thanks Nightflier the BR pork belly investor....

What was it that you said about staying on topic?

[PeruvianSkies]

It''s too bad Sir TtT that there wasn't a way that we could have a film knowledge trivia between us online, it wouldn't be fair since you'd probably Google your answers, but I would easily challenge what you know about film any day if we could do it in person!

[Sir Terrence the Terrible]

It''s too bad Sir TtT that there wasn't a way that we could have a film knowledge trivia between us online, it wouldn't be fair since you'd probably Google your answers, but I would easily challenge what you know about film any day if we could do it in person!

Peruvian, I know its your lack of basic intelligence that allows you to make unintelligent assumptions. Maybe you google your answers, but I have enough knowledgeable sources to go straight the horse mouth, rather than make faulty assumptions.

Since we cannot do it in person, try something we can do online.

[Sir Terrence the Terrible]

Rather than counter your quotes and make this thread even longer than it needs to be I wanted to start fresh and just mention a few things with regards to your previous reply to what I had said....

Video cannot look like film? Sure. It never will, but that is the reference for what the film should look like and if the Blu-ray or any other format doesn't look like that...then it's not a good transfer. Obviously formats have limitations that make it challenging to look like the theatrical experience.

This statement does not apply to the topic which we are discussion. The digital intermediatary is the reference, not the bluray disc itself. The bluray disc is sourced from the digital intermediary, not the other way around. The DI was compared to the original work printmaster several times. After being tweaked to make it as close as possible to the original work printmaster, it was found to be as close as video can get to the original film elements. There is no denying that this was a VERY good transfer, according to Sony pictures and Zoetrope studios. Mr Coppola screened it himself, and approved it as being as close to the film as he has ever seen.

So if the approved printmaster is the reference point for everything and the Blu-ray (or other formats) look like junk, but it's "accurate" to the printmaster than we are just suppose to deal with that and even if the director approved it, but the audience thinks it looks terrible then what? People knew that the Superbit had issues and they don't need to see the printmaster to know that it had color issues all over the place.

Just what is the audience suppose to use to compare what they see? How do they know it looks like junk if they have nothing accurate to compare it to? Just their judgement? That means nothing as it is more subjective than objective. In order for something to be labelled as junk, one would have to compare the original printmaster to the DI that the bluray was encoded from. Outside of that, then there is no accurate comparison, its just a wide open guess.

I find it a bit too coincidental that majority of the people that have seen the Blu-ray are making the same complaints. Or are they all in on some conspiracy together? While I know that some are comparing it to the other formats, most are saying that the Blu-ray is indeed superior to the previous formats, but the one interesting point is how the transfer looks better in the documentary excerpts on the Blu-ray over the actual film presentation. What happened there?????

Its called serious pre-filtering of the video, something that nobody wanted on the film itself.
What you have is a few uneducated reviewers who have made the mistake of comparing the bluray disc to the other releases of this film, and based on the kind of picture THEY like as opposed to what the DP and director wants they made a judgement. If you compare the bluray to inaccurate previous releases, then your review is inaccurate, not the bluray disc. Then you have an online community of so called experts spreading the information from an inaccurate review throughout the online community. Peter Bracke started this round, and word of his review spread like wildfire everywhere. As soon as his uneducated inaccurate review was posted, you could go to AVS, Bluray.com, Hidefinition digest, and see the comments that folks were making. Then come the screenshots taken with a digital camera(which have inaccuracies themselves), then the comparisons with the other releases, and you have a online community spreading inaccuracies everywhere.

It appears that a representative from Zoetrope went to approve the transfer, not Coppola himself...at least that is the explanation that I see online.

Since you, or most other folks cannot access the insiders thread on Bluray.com, you do not have all of the story. A representative from Zoetrope acted as a go between the studio and Mr. Coppola himself. The representative coodinated the entire process as they were apart of the original production, and knew what it looked like. The representative brought the DI for Mr Coppola to see, if he didn't like what he saw, he recommended changes, and those changes were implemented. This process continued for months until Mr Coppola gave the go ahead. This was not a quick process, it was a process the covered many months.

People who do reviews (while they might not be so-called professionals) know when they see a good transfer, despite whatever limitations they might have to the original source material.

They think they know when they see a good transfer. If it is clean and blemish free, the color is good in their opinion, and there are no obvious artifacts and pixelation going they assume it is good. However all that can take place and the colorspace could still be off. The contrast could still be blown, and black levels somewhat crushed, and they wouldn't know the difference without a direct comparison to the original printmaster(or DI). That's a reality.

I can give you a good example of this. I worked on the original theatrical soundtrack of a movie that was reviewed on DVD. The reviewer thought the soundtrack sounded really good, and gave all of the accolades that a reviewers give to great soundtracks. However all was not great. The studio had taken elements of the LFE, and spread them to the main channels for backwards compatibility with mixdown Dolby Stereo. This highly weakened the LFE, and because most of the bass was being redirected back to the subwoofer, caused some very noticeable cancellation effects which made the bass uneven when compared to the original printmaster soundtrack. The reviewer had no idea this had even been done, and was not aware of the depature from the original theatrical printmaster soundtrack, but gave it a great review. Had he been able to go back to the original printmaster and compare it to the DVD, I am sure his review wouldn't have been so glowing.

Obviously most people don't have access to things for comparison, but it doesn't take a genius to look at the DVD presentation of Coppola's ONE FROM THE HEART and know that it's a good transfer.

It may have been a clean, artifact free transfer, but know one knows how accurate it is to the original film printmaster. Comparing it to the theatrical release is no comparison at all.

Until I see the Blu-ray disc firsthand I shall reserve any more specific comments, but at this point there seems to be a divide with fans and whether it's accurate or not and/or directors approved, that doesn't seem to be convincing people at this point. I guess what it boils down to is whether people want a directors approved transfer that is accurate, but they don't personal prefer the transfer or just deal with it and wait for something else to come along, it's not like that film was Coppola's greatest moment.

I think it is rather ironic that you are even attempting to discuss this without even seeing it first. Secondly, alot of folks view DVD, HD DVD, and bluray's through uncalibrated, miscalibrated, or calibration with their own personal tweaks that venture outside accuracy. In the grand scheme of things people have gotten used to CGI and digital optica effects that they have become VERY desensitized to analog optical effects. Almost all movies released now days use CGI or post production optical effects. Since the effects are usually of higher resolution, they appear sharper, cleaner, and sometimes anteseptic. All of the effects in this movie are done in camera, or using analog tools in post. The effect was to create a visual pallette more reminiscent of the old Hollywood horror movies. Based on what I saw on my BR copy of Dracula, they were quite sucessful.

There are some things a review can tell you, and some things it cannot. They can tell if the BR DI was clean and artifact free. What they cannot tell you is how accurate the DI is to the actual film itself.

[Sir Terrence the Terrible]

You're agreeing that these technologies all stumbled to some degree because of political events right? Isn't that what I was saying about political or catastrophic events? They could have an impact. I never said that they would destroy the format, now did I? Yes, the formats from your examples survived, but they did stumble and that is precesely what I'm talking about.

No I am not agreeing with this, because it didn't happen. I am really sorry that your ability to understand plain english is so limited. I said(very clearly I might add)This is stupid. The betamax...The laserdisc...The CD format...The DVD format...There has always been a consistant and persistant CHANCE that a major calamity could have destroyed all of these technologies chances in the consumer market, BUT IT DIDN'T HAPPEN....

How you got the reverse of what I said is beyond me.

If we go back to what has already been established in this thread: that this holiday season was crucial and that the shift of a single studio could tip the balance in this format war, then it is just as likely that either BR or HDDVD could become a niche product. I never said that a political of catastrophic event was going to kill off either format, I only said it could tip the balance.

Many things can tip the balance, VOD is not one of them. Sorry. Sony, Disney and Fox I know for sure is not going to switch sides. Just not going to happen. Disney wants region coding and BD+ along with Fox. The DVD forum already rejected both of these requests(I also know this for sure), and therefore precludes any of these two from switching sides. Sony for obvious reason will not. Warner has already said(and confirmed by my good friend who is an executive there), that it will not make any decision on which side to take till after christmas. They may just stay neutral for another year, they are making quite a bit of money on this venture, and they have kept costs pretty much in check. Paramount is HD DVD exclusive till christmas 2008, and Universal agreement is up at the end of this year. Universal has been touring Sony's replication facilities for the last 6 months or so, and Spielberg has already told them they cannot release any movie that Amblin has produced, or that he has directed unless its on both formats. He has repeated that to Paramount/Dreamworks as well. This means that both Paramount/Dreamwork and Universal cannot release any of their big guns unless its a neutral release. So the idea of studios changing sides is pretty much nill at this point, so that is off the table in this discussion at least till the beginning of next year.

There is no history of any political or catastrophic event that stopped, or even slowed the adoption of a new video technology. So to advance this as a talking point is specious, and has no precedence. The only thing that has slowed the adoption of any CE technology is the battle between DVD and DIVX, and that only lasted less than a year.

Perhaps this is true for the disks, but if we're talking about players, that's a whole different ball of wax. The players are comming from countries that are more unstable/fragile than the US and the cost/profit margins are much more volatile in those countries. The risk to the industry due to instability or another tsunami is much greater. Again, I'm not saying this would destroy the industry, only that it could affect price this holiday season.

Once again you are still trying to advance the arguement that player prices are dependent on world events. This is simply not true, and has never been true. It's FUD pure and simple. China has proven itself as having an extremely stable manufacturing base. Japan is a damn right mature and stable manufacturing base. Alot of DVD players are produced in China, and I have not heard of labor unrest(they crack down on that stuff there) are any other event that stopped DVD players from making it here. Once again, there is no history of what you are trying to advance, and the chance of world events effecting pricing or inventory has no history as well. DVD, HD DVD, and bluray players are not subject to market forces like oil and other commodities are.

Spoken like a true over-consumer. It's odd, it's expensive and it's extravagant. It's the kind of thing that the average American will not do, even if some of the people here do. You may think otherwise, but I don't believe it. If you're so sure that the majority of consumers will buy both formats, I'd like to see where you get that idea. Let's see some sales figures, or a survey that was done on the subject. And given how small the HD market share is, it's even more odd.

Your labels do not effect me. One can say you are a tight ass penny pincher who is too paralyzed by his own dogma to make a solid decision one way or another, and they would probably be right.

I never said that everyone was going to go dual format. However in case they are people that want to, there are solutions for them. By the time the "average" American adopts into HDM on disc, the war will be long over. Lastly, please do not ask me to provide anything else until you can provide some basic information that supports what you have said in thread after thread. When you can do that, then you have the right to ask.

Yes. What's so hard to understand about that? If a critical component is in short supply, the complete product that depends on it is either delayed or the price goes up.

To show you just how absolutely ignorant you are on this here is a tidbit for you. Blue diodes were in very short supply when both HD DVD and Bluray were brought to market. Guess what? The players came, and the price remained exactly the same. There was a delay with bluray, but it had nothing to do with parts, it was standards, and guess what? The price was still the same.

I've seen this happen over and over again in the computer industry, so why would that be strange in the electronics industry?

The computer industry is not the same as the Home video industry. They don't operate the same, they don't do business the same way. The computer industry may have a history of this, but not the home video industry. Apples and Pears, sorry try again.

Actually, I can remember reading about CD players being affected by a shortage in tray loading motors by Phillips.

Fortunately Phillips was not the only company making tray motors. Effect some, but not all is not a basis for building an arguement. Toshiba had a difficult time finding blue diodes, Sony did not. Any one company can be effected by shortages without effecting the whole industry.

Again, I'm only saying that this would matter in the unique situation of this holiday season, where either format could loose critical sales because of something like this. I'm sure Sony would be pretty irritated if in November the chips for it's PS3's video processor where in short supply. Would it impact the BR/HDDVD format war? Perhaps not, but who knows?

Sony uses the Cell processor which are in plentiful supply. I don't think they have that to worry about. Also, Sony makes a standalone player, as does Pioneer, Daewoo, Sharp, Samsung, Funai, and several others. Bluray is not wholly dependant on the PS3 for its success. However Toshiba has everything riding on its players. Since Toshiba is the lone supplier of HD DVD players design and manufacture, they have more to lose than Sony on this issue. Another?

So how does this not make you a shill for the BR camp?

I get paid for producing soundtracks, not promoting formats. When you state the facts, you are not a shill, but a person stating facts. Are you a shill for the do nothing camp?

It will be over? When? Can I quote you on that?

It took about 5 years for the masses to embrace the DVD format. Several studio executives have already said they will not support both formats, and are looking to end this war ASAP. Blockbuster has already made their move, as has target in their stores. Walmart has done the same thing in their stores. HD DVD would be on their way out the door if they had not bought Paramounts support. They bought themselves some time, but not a victory. Everyone who understands this industry has stated such.

When you have a one format that cannot even defeat the other with three exclusive releases in a week against none on the other, you can plainly see that one is completely overtaken the other in players installed base. When you have Europe's largest studios announce exclusive HD DVD support, and less than three months later go neutral, that is a sign that one format is growing faster than the other. When you have eight manufacturers making players on one side, and just one on the other, once clearly has industry wide support, the other doesn't. When you have three exclusive studios and one neutral studio with the choice of releasing whatever titles they have in their library, versus two exclusive with tight stipulations on what titles they can release and which is off limits, then you know one side does not have the support of certain directors and production companies in the industry. When you have one side lead in disc sales for 8 months, and lose that lead in one month, that shows you that it doesn't have widespread consumer support. So, if the consumer doesn't decide this war, the studios certainly will. Warner has already said they are paying attention to disc sales, and will switch their support accordingly after the new year, yes, you can quote me. Give you a date, if you think I can do that, then there is much more air between those ears than I thought.

I presumed from the way you described them that they were reviewers. I guess I misunderstood. With all the wordy doublespeak, it isn't always easy to understand what you mean (kind of like when you say you don't have a vested interest, but you do work for a BR only studio).

You have been presuming alot, and wrong alot as well. Brightness, can you tell me how working for a BR exclusive studio is accurately called a vested interest? I was working for that studio before you ever heard of bluray or HD DVD. Alot of your talking points resemble rubber bands, they're a real stretch.

Tsk, tsk. Making mountains out of molehills again. I did not say there was no market for dual format players. I said that the market wasn't very significant. I meant this mostly in reference to the LG's lukewarm reception. I'm pretty sure I said that the Samsung player was still unknown to me. You're twisting around what I said. Very uncharacteristic for such a stickler for details as yourself.

The market isn't signficant because you can get a player from each format for much cheaper. And many folks are doing it. Go to AVS, Hidefinitiondigest, Hometheater spot, Hometheatshack, and several other sites and see that people are indeed purchasing players from both formats. It certainly doesn't ride to the height of those that have picked a side, but it is significant enough to mention.

So you know that this is why it's not selling? How do you know that? What inside information do you have that can shed some light on that revelation? Do you have some stats to back that one up? Does the average consumer even care about the certification? Or is it because the reviewers have given it their thumbs down? Well which is it?

Both. When the player was introduced, the DVD forum refused to allow it to sport the HD DVD badge. That raised a significant buzz in the online A/V community. When it was found that it could not do the interactive features that the HD DVD PG has pushed so much, then once again the community was set abuzz. When it was found to cost over $1000 and only support HDMI 1.1 again there was a strike against it. When the bluray folks found that it could not playback home burned bluray disc, that was it for them. There is plenty of online community comment on this, all one has to do is get off their butt and look.

It seems you're the only one that doesn't want to hear that record - you know, the one where you actually back what you said about BR winning this war.

Actually if you look at player sales and disc sales, they are winning the war. They haven't won, but they have been consistantly winning disc sales for nearly a year. They are now outselling HD DVD in standalone players as well. I think I have provided sales ratios. So I have actually backed my point with facts, you have not, and that is a fact. Can you provide sales figures or data that support your contention that VOD will make HD DVD and bluray niche products?

What was it that you said about staying on topic?

Sometimes that is difficult when the other party refuses to do so.

[nightflier]

...Little Terrence just won't go away.

No I am not agreeing with this, because it didn't happen. I am really sorry that your ability to understand plain english is so limited. I said(very clearly I might add)This is stupid. The betamax...The laserdisc...The CD format...The DVD format...There has always been a consistant and persistant CHANCE that a major calamity could have destroyed all of these technologies chances in the consumer market, BUT IT DIDN'T HAPPEN....

You said that: "The laserdisc was introduced in 1978, a year before the Iran hostage affair. While it remained a niche product, it made it through the hostage crises, the latter part of the oil embargo, various hurricaines, world crises and everything else."

So it remained a niche product. Can you verify for the rest of us that the hostage crisis wasn't just a tad on everyone's mind when they went to the hifi store? You're only making assumptions and you really don't know. How can you be so sure that world events don't affect sales? This stuff was all over the news, everyday. Economists know that people's attitudes about spending their money are shaped by world events. People's attitudes about risk (i.e. choosing a side in a format war) are definitely affected by world events. If you don't believe that, you ought to read up on economic history. I won't even go into what happened to our economy after 9/11 - it survived, yes, but it put a real drain on the x-mas shopping season, or did you forget about that one?

With this format war and this fall shopping season we're talking about a very real threat of a serious calamitous event (an attack on Iran) that could set off numerous secondary events, and all at a time when two disks formats that make up less than 5% of the movie market need to fight it out in the marketplace? Don't you think it's a little premature to say that the format war is all but over?

Many things can tip the balance, VOD is not one of them.

How can you be so sure? Your presumption is based solely on a slowdown in VOD subscriptions. But how do those subscription numbers compare to BR/HDDVD rental figures? Because if we're going to be comparing apples to apples, let's not beat around the bush with oranges.

Disney wants region coding and BD+ along with Fox. The DVD forum already rejected both of these requests(I also know this for sure), and therefore precludes any of these two from switching sides.

I'm not disagreeing, but 'm a little fuzzy. Can you explain that one?

Warner...may just stay neutral for another year, they are making quite a bit of money on this venture, and they have kept costs pretty much in check.

Either this is your assumption or there's more to this. Care to elaborate?

Universal has been touring Sony's replication facilities for the last 6 months or so...

Speculative. You don't know what else they've been touring.

This means that both Paramount/Dreamwork and Universal cannot release any of their big guns unless its a neutral release.

Just because they have to release in both formats does not mean that the content will be the same on both disks. Ever heard of a crappy marketing ply called 300?

So the idea of studios changing sides is pretty much nill at this point, so that is off the table in this discussion at least till the beginning of next year.

Much of this is speculation and whispers from your inside sources. I'm not going to take your word for this.

This next one I'm going to hold you to:

The chance of world events effecting pricing or inventory has no history as well. DVD, HD DVD, and bluray players are not subject to market forces like oil and other commodities are.

You make so many absolute statements, it's as if everything for you has to be black and white. You want to go down on that boat, be my guest.

Your labels do not effect me. One can say you are a tight ass penny pincher who is too paralyzed by his own dogma to make a solid decision one way or another, and they would probably be right.

But you sure like to insult when you can. So much for that vaulted decorum you're so proud of.

I never said that everyone was going to go dual format.

You sure made it sound like it was not an oddball thing to do. You were going on and on with the names of all the people who did. That's misleading.

However in case they are people that want to, there are solutions for them. By the time the "average" American adopts into HDM on disc, the war will be long over.

Your assumption.

Lastly, please do not ask me to provide anything else until you can provide some basic information that supports what you have said in thread after thread. When you can do that, then you have the right to ask.

Hey you're the numbers guy. I never said I had a pocket full of sales figures to make myself sound smart. You want to argue about numbers, you'll have to provide some.

To show you just how absolutely ignorant you are

More insults?

Blue diodes were in very short supply when both HD DVD and Bluray were brought to market. Guess what? The players came, and the price remained exactly the same.

This is a pointless argument. How serious was the shortage? Apparently not very much. You're making an argument out of a chosen non-example. Sounds more like you are setting the parameters of the argument here. Anyone can use those tricks, they don't make the case.

There was a delay with bluray, but it had nothing to do with parts, it was standards, and guess what? The price was still the same.

I recall BR coming way down in price to try and meet the HDDVD lead, there.

The computer industry is not the same as the Home video industry. They don't operate the same, they don't do business the same way. The computer industry may have a history of this, but not the home video industry. Apples and Pears, sorry try again.

I don't know, but at least technologically, that BR player looks a lot like a computer to me. It even takes as long to boot up. If a shortage in parts can affect laptops (just went through that with a shipment of HP laptops), then I presume the same could affect BR players.

Fortunately Phillips was not the only company making tray motors. Effect some, but not all is not a basis for building an arguement.

Now you're treading on thin ice again. This is wandering away from the safety of you area of expertise... If Phillips is the exclusive contractor for said parts, that slows down product releases and does very much affect sales. Just look at what was happened to PS Audio's recent power products - the delay certainly didn't do them under, but how many sales did they loose to Furman, Shunyata, and Richard Gray? Again, we'll never know, but if PS Audio's power supplies were struggling in small market segment, that might just have done it for that product line.

Toshiba had a difficult time finding blue diodes, Sony did not.

So if it affects the HDDVD camp, it's a significant example, but if it affects the BR camp it's not? So how do you know that this shortage isn't the reason HDDVD player sales have been affected?

Any one company can be effected by shortages without effecting the whole industry.

Using that same logic, any one format can be a affected without affecting the whole movie industry. VOD anyone?

Bluray is not wholly dependant on the PS3 for its success.

I didn't say BR was wholly dependent on the PS3. I was using the PS3 as an example that a shortage would hurt sales in that particular market segment.

However Toshiba has everything riding on its players. Since Toshiba is the lone supplier of HD DVD players design and manufacture, they have more to lose than Sony on this issue.

Well there's always LG's HDDVD player. And I'm presuming that Toshiba makes the HDDVD player for xBox, but I'm sure you can enlighten us.

I get paid for producing soundtracks, not promoting formats. When you state the facts, you are not a shill, but a person stating facts.

So your paycheck comes from doing soundtracks for BR disks, right? How exactly does that not make you biassed?

Are you a shill for the do nothing camp?

Yeah, that's a good one, little Terrence. Did you lean that one in grade-school?

Several studio executives have already said they will not support both formats, and are looking to end this war ASAP.

Who are those "several executives"?

Blockbuster has already made their move

NetFlix hasn't.

as has target in their stores.

Haven't seen any BR disks at my local Target, but if that's so, I'll give you that one.

Walmart has done the same thing in their stores.

I don't shop at wallmart, but I thought they were going HDDVD. Please correct me if I'm wrong. I could be. I'm only human - I do make mistakes.

HD DVD would be on their way out the door if they had not bought Paramounts support.

So you say "they" paid them off? Sounds a little shady. What are you saying?

They bought themselves some time, but not a victory.

Time is important, especially given this holiday season.

Everyone who understands this industry has stated such.

So "everyone who understands this industry" is in the BR camp. And "everyone" in the HDDVD camp is just a simpleton who doesn't understand the industry? Can I quote you on that bit of wisdom?

When you have Europe's largest studios announce exclusive HD DVD support, and less than three months later go neutral, that is a sign that one format is growing faster than the other.

Gotta slow you down there, little Terrence. They are neutral, that's all. This is not an indication that they are calling a winner. If there's a few things I know about life across the pond: everything costs more, the people are a lot more careful about where they spend their money, and they hold onto technology a lot longer as long as it still works. It's a cultural thing, I suppose, but they will not be as lemming-like as you may want them to be.

When you have eight manufacturers making players on one side, and just one on the other, once clearly has industry wide support, the other doesn't.

Well, maybe, but if you look at the economics of this, it's not that simple. Even with BR ahead by a 2-1 margin, you still have 8 guys on the BR side fighting it out and beating each other up while on the HDDVD side, you've got one fellar keeping all the profits for himself. One could hardly say that the BR camp is in a better position with this example.

When you have one side lead in disc sales for 8 months, and lose that lead in one month, that shows you that it doesn't have widespread consumer support.

Again, let's not be so simplistic, little Terrence. Those 8 months of HDDVD leading the race have allowed it to flood the market with products. You could look at it another way, it could just be that the BR camp is just catching up. For example, how many frees-standing HDDVD players are actually in people's homes compared to BR? I'm going to guess there are more HDDVD players, but I'm sure you can give us exact figures, right?

So, if the consumer doesn't decide this war, the studios certainly will.

Well didn't you say that the studios were gona wait and see what the consumers will be doing this holiday season? I think your exact words were: "...Warner has already said (and confirmed by my good friend who is an executive there), that it will not make any decision on which side to take till after christmas. ... Paramount is HD DVD exclusive till christmas 2008, and Universal agreement is up at the end of this year." No, I think the studios are going to wait this out as well.

Warner has already said they are paying attention to disc sales, and will switch their support accordingly after the new year

Hey what do you know, another contradiction.

yes, you can quote me.

I intend to. It will be priceless to see you eat those words (although you're pretty good at denying it when you're already doing so).

...Can you tell me how working for a BR exclusive studio is accurately called a vested interest?

They butter your bread, don't they? You're a shill, just admit it!

I was working for that studio before you ever heard of bluray or HD DVD.

So what? They are paying you now, right? Your livelyhood depends on BR winning this war. How can you even stand here and tell us you're impartial?

Alot of your talking points resemble rubber bands, they're a real stretch.

Boy that kind of wit is astounding...

for a 5th grader! 'Come on little Terrence, grow up.

The market isn't signficant because you can get a player from each format for much cheaper. And many folks are doing it. Go to AVS, Hidefinitiondigest, Hometheater spot, Hometheatshack, and several other sites and see that people are indeed purchasing players from both formats. It certainly doesn't ride to the height of those that have picked a side, but it is significant enough to mention.

What a way to make a mountain out of a molehill. I said that the number of people owning both formats was insignificant, and then you say "It certainly doesn't ride to the height of those that have picked a side." This is exactly what I said, but you find a way to make it sound like more.

When the player was introduced, the DVD forum refused to allow it to sport the HD DVD badge. That raised a significant buzz in the online A/V community. When it was found that it could not do the interactive features that the HD DVD PG has pushed so much, then once again the community was set abuzz. When it was found to cost over $1000 and only support HDMI 1.1 again there was a strike against it. When the bluray folks found that it could not playback home burned bluray disc, that was it for them. There is plenty of online community comment on this, all one has to do is get off their butt and look.

Nice details but you can't say that's why the player's not selling - you're only speculating. I'll tell you why it's not selling: most people don't want both formats.

They are now outselling HD DVD in standalone players as well. I think I have provided sales ratios. So I have actually backed my point with facts,

Are these facts enough to offset an 8 month head start by the HDDVD camp? How many players are actually in people's homes? For all you know this may just be BR catching up and riding that wave.

Can you provide sales figures or data that support your contention that VOD will make HD DVD and bluray niche products?

I never said I would. I am only telling people that what you are presenting as facts is only part of the picture. You are so focussed on that one part that you can't even see that it's not complete. It's just childish, really, just like your petty insults. Grow up and show a backbone, already.

[PeruvianSkies]

To see how long it takes Sir T to reply to this, he started at 1:53am...start the clock!

[kexodusc]

To see how long it takes Sir T to reply to this, he started at 1:53am...start the clock!

Your obsessive fixation with Sir T is disturbing. What, are you hiding in his bushes watching him?

[Sir Terrence the Terrible]

To see how long it takes Sir T to reply to this, he started at 1:53am...start the clock!

Oh PS, you didn't respond to my answer on Bram Strokers. What happen? You seemed so knowledgeable and ready to debate me on this. Shot your wad and have nothing left?

At 1:53am I was very sleep, so I couldn't have started at that time. Try again???

[L.J.]

Your obsessive fixation with Sir T is disturbing. What, are you hiding in his bushes watching him?

Interesting for someone who logs in using "Invisible Mode".

[Groundbeef]

Looks like that pesky HD-DVD format is back on top. For all those that had written it off, its selling quite a bit better than Blu-Ray now.

Heres the link:
http://www.videobusiness.com/article....html?nid=3511

Also, with the arrogance of the BD folks over at Fox, its no wonder people are turned off by the format. Fox is now releasing BD movies in a format some players are unable to play. Instead of making sure that all players will support the format, Fox is suggesting that consumers who purchased the movie (that won't play or be returned after opening) LOBBY their machine maker for an "update" that will allow playback.

At least HD-DVD mandates ethernet so that consumers can plug in and d/l updates as needed. Many BD machines don't have capabilities to even get online for patches/updates.

See here:

http://www.engadgethd.com/2007/10/05...ay-our-movies/

[kexodusc]

Looks like that pesky HD-DVD format is back on top. For all those that had written it off, its selling quite a bit better than Blu-Ray now.

That's cool. If my memory is correct, there's more hardware sales fo HD-DVD, but more software sales for BluRay? Sounds like things might get a bit nasty in time for Christmas.

[PeruvianSkies]

Oh PS, you didn't respond to my answer on Bram Strokers. What happen? You seemed so knowledgeable and ready to debate me on this. Shot your wad and have nothing left?

At 1:53am I was very sleep, so I couldn't have started at that time. Try again???

I told you I was waiting until I get the disc before making any more comments. Don't worry I am far from done with you.

[Sir Terrence the Terrible]

...Little Terrence just won't go away.

Little winged creature. Sir Terrence is not going away.

So it remained a niche product. Can you verify for the rest of us that the hostage crisis wasn't just a tad on everyone's mind when they went to the hifi store? You're only making assumptions and you really don't know.

Then why did they go to the Hifi store in the first place. If I was pre-occupied with world events, shopping for equipment would be the last thing on my mind.

The laserdisc remained a niche product for several reason. This is not guess work, its fact because I am going to take the information directly from Pioneers magazine on the history of optical disc.

A. The laserdisc was a non recording format competiting against VHS and Beta which were recording formats.

B. The laserdisc players were more expensive than their video counterparts, and remained that way throught its 20 year history. It became a film buff and film collectors format.

C. The laserdisc itself was big, bulky, easily damaged, and very expensive compared to VHS and Beta tapes.

D. The Laserdisc was not marketed as a rented product like VHS, it was sell through only which made the pipeline for its distribution much smaller than VHS.

This is what kept the laserdisc a niche product, not the hostage crises(as you are trying to advance), not any economic downturn(there was a worldwide recession in the early eighties, and laserdisc sales still grew, and VHS more than doubled its market size) If one looked at history, sales of video products actually grew during recessions. People stayed home and watch movies and taped shows.

How can you be so sure that world events don't affect sales? This stuff was all over the news, everyday. Economists know that people's attitudes about spending their money are shaped by world events.

And if we were to look at history, sales of video products actually grew during worldwide recessions, hostage crises, wars, deaths of world leaders, impeachment hearing, a dog pissing on a front lawn. There is no evidence that at all of a negative impact, and if there is, feel free to point it out with EVIDENCE, not your opinion.

People's attitudes about risk (i.e. choosing a side in a format war) are definitely affected by world events. If you don't believe that, you ought to read up on economic history. I won't even go into what happened to our economy after 9/11 - it survived, yes, but it put a real drain on the x-mas shopping season, or did you forget about that one?

We are in two wars right now(afghanistan and Iraq), and people are choosing either HD DVD or bluray every day. We were in both wars when both product launched, did you know there are over 5.5 million products sold with a bluray drive in them? Did you know that there were 600k products sold with a HD DVD drive in them. All while we were at war. Did you know that Bluray just pressed its 10 millionth BD50 disc last week, and has pressed more than 30 million BD25 this year. All while we were at war.

With this format war and this fall shopping season we're talking about a very real threat of a serious calamitous event (an attack on Iran) that could set off numerous secondary events, and all at a time when two disks formats that make up less than 5% of the movie market need to fight it out in the marketplace? Don't you think it's a little premature to say that the format war is all but over?

Since 1975 when beta came on the market we have seen VHS, Laserdisc, CD, DVD and now HD DVD and Bluray hit the market. We have had 32 christmas seasons with the formats, plenty of time for you theory to play out. Since 75, we have had wars, oil crises, hostages taken, economic downturns, plenty of events that could allow your theory to play out. It didn't happen. There is no evidence that we have seen so far that ties what happen in one place, affecting everywhere when it comes to sales of video media.

If you have any evidence to support your theory, I am all eyes. I have been waiting for it since page one on this thread.

How can you be so sure? Your presumption is based solely on a slowdown in VOD subscriptions. But how do those subscription numbers compare to BR/HDDVD rental figures? Because if we're going to be comparing apples to apples, let's not beat around the bush with oranges.

You have one market that is stagnated, the other that is growing steadily. One has been around a while, the other just got here. One has had the DVD rental market as its competition, and hasn't been able to stop or even dent DVD rentals.

BR and HD DVD are mainly sell through products. While blockbuster and netflicks do rent them, the lion share of HD DVD and Bluray comes from sales not rentals. VOD revenue has completely flatten out, and has been that way since early 2006.

I'm not disagreeing, but 'm a little fuzzy. Can you explain that one?

No. Get online and look it up.

Either this is your assumption or there's more to this. Care to elaborate?

Warner has stated this themselves publicly, and one of my school mates from film school is an executive at Warner has stated this to me as well. No need to assume, if you were really paying attention to these formats, this information has been pretty well known.

Speculative. You don't know what else they've been touring.

Weak. You have HD DVD and Bluray. Since Universal is already HD DVD, knowns HD DVD replication and distrubution backwards and forwards(they have been in that camp since day one) they are not exactly needing to tour a HD DVD replication facility. Since Bluray is the only other format here, they must be touring it because they are interested. Not speculative, just plain logical. Ken Graffeo who is Universal head of home entertainment said himself he is under intense pressure from GE to increase profits. The only way to do this is to go neutral, since they do not sell players. If they go neutral, they can release all of the Steven Spielberg movies which would definately spur sales and increase profit. That is why you tour the replication facilities of the other format. No need for speculation, this is simple logic.

Just because they have to release in both formats does not mean that the content will be the same on both disks. Ever heard of a crappy marketing ply called 300?

Whether 300 is a crappy marketing ploy is a matter of subjective opinion. I liked it personally. Clearly the HD DVD version had more extra content than the Bluray version. That however is just the surface. In one week 300 sold 250k copies on Bluray and HD DVD. To break that down further they sold 187k bluray disc, and 63k to HD DVD. While the HD DVD version sales have dropped off considerably, the bluray version has continued to outsell every title that HD DVD has released in that period. The devil is in the details

Much of this is speculation and whispers from your inside sources. I'm not going to take your word for this.

No, its not speculation. Warner has stated in quite a few press releases that they are not going to make any moves until after christmas holidays. But the reality is they may not make any move, they are selling disc and making money. This is not private whispers, but public information if one was keeping track of events. You haven't and its pretty obvious.

You make so many absolute statements, it's as if everything for you has to be black and white. You want to go down on that boat, be my guest.

And you make statements with absolutely no historical foundation. You have yet to list any of these video formats being effected by the events which you state. Where is your proof? Where is the historical evidence that supports your theory? Where is it?????

But you sure like to insult when you can. So much for that vaulted decorum you're so proud of.

It is very difficult to maintain a vaulted decorum when you opponent can't stay on the level with you.

You sure made it sound like it was not an oddball thing to do. You were going on and on with the names of all the people who did. That's misleading.

Why would purchasing players from both format be an oddball thing? Is it because you cannot afford to do it? The concept is simple. I want(and others as well) the choice to purchase high definition media from all of the studios. I do not want my choices limited by a format war. What is so oddball about that. What I think is oddball is that you think the average video consumer is thinking about world events when they are at the counter purchasing HD media, or any media for that matter. They obviously want the product no matter what is going on in Darfur or Burma.

Your assumption.

And yours as well.

Hey you're the numbers guy. I never said I had a pocket full of sales figures to make myself sound smart. You want to argue about numbers, you'll have to provide some.

You are the one advancing a theory that has no historical precedence. All I am doing is asking you to provide an instance where sales of video players and software was effected by world events. I have already provided plenty of numbers to support my contentions. Do you really think that you can have a debate without proof?

More insults?

Actually its proving to be fact.

This is a pointless argument. How serious was the shortage? Apparently not very much. You're making an argument out of a chosen non-example. Sounds more like you are setting the parameters of the argument here. Anyone can use those tricks, they don't make the case.

Just because you say it is pointless doesn't make it so. It was serious enough to make the press

http://www.engadget.com/2006/08/30/b...aser-shortage/

http://biz.gamedaily.com/industry/feature/?id=13671

http://www.afterdawn.com/news/archive/7734.cfm

I have many more examples of this.

I recall BR coming way down in price to try and meet the HDDVD lead, there.

You are still wrong. When BR overtook HD DVD in January of this year, the PS3 was $599, the same price it was released at. Sony own standalone was $1000, same price it was at introduction. The Pioneer was over $1000, same as introduction, and the Samsung was $899, the same price at its introduction. Prices fell on these products when the second generation player where introduced at a lower price. Sony cut the price of the PS3 only three month ago, more than 8 months after it over took HD DVD.

So much for you recollection, and your theory.

I don't know, but at least technologically, that BR player looks a lot like a computer to me. It even takes as long to boot up. If a shortage in parts can affect laptops (just went through that with a shipment of HP laptops), then I presume the same could affect BR players.

Don't you have the intellect to distinguish a HD video player that plays movies but may function like a computer, from the computer industry? The computer industry is the computer industry. The movie industry is the movie industry. Can part shortages delay shipment of a BR player? Sure it can. But there is no evidence that it actually did. While there was a shortage of blue diodes at the begininng of 2006, there is no evidence that it killed sales as BR did overtake HD DVD two months after offically launching.

Now you're treading on thin ice again. This is wandering away from the safety of you area of expertise... If Phillips is the exclusive contractor for said parts, that slows down product releases and does very much affect sales.

Well, Phillips was not the exclusive contractor for said parts. Sony manufactured its own motorized drawers, so please provide some evidence that Phillips lack effected Sony.

Just look at what was happened to PS Audio's recent power products - the delay certainly didn't do them under, but how many sales did they loose to Furman, Shunyata, and Richard Gray? Again, we'll never know, but if PS Audio's power supplies were struggling in small market segment, that might just have done it for that product line.

Your example is perfect for exactly what I have been saying. PS Audio issues didn't effect Furman, Shunyata or Richard Grey did it? And neither would Phillips problems effect Sony.

So if it affects the HDDVD camp, it's a significant example, but if it affects the BR camp it's not? So how do you know that this shortage isn't the reason HDDVD player sales have been affected?

The BR camp had two manufacturers making blue diodes especially for BR players. Sony was one of them. Toshiba doesn't make blue diodes, so they were at the mercy of the market.

If you are going to advance the theory that the blue diode shortage effected players sales, you are going to have to provide evidence of this happening. If you cannot, the the theory is hollow and without merit.

Hmmm, the ice wasn't so thin after all.



Using that same logic, any one format can be a affected without affecting the whole movie industry. VOD anyone?

VOD has infrastructure isses, time limits, DRM, no 1080p, no 5.1 soundtracks, no extras, no pip, and no seamless branching, its compressed to death and is not a standalone solution. You must have cable or satellite to get VOD. You are right, these limitations do not effect BR, HD DVD nor the movie industry as a whole.

I didn't say BR was wholly dependent on the PS3. I was using the PS3 as an example that a shortage would hurt sales in that particular market segment.

Your example, while plausible has no history. If you are going to advance a theory, then it has to have some relevance in history or its just an empty theory.

Well there's always LG's HDDVD player. And I'm presuming that Toshiba makes the HDDVD player for xBox, but I'm sure you can enlighten us.

I already enlightened you. LG doesn't have a standalone HD DVD player, but they do have bluray rewriteable drives, recording drives they exibited at IFA 2007. They do not make any recordable drives for HD DVD, just read only.

So your paycheck comes from doing soundtracks for BR disks, right? How exactly does that not make you biassed?

Wow, you are ignorant of this industry. Nobody makes soundtracks exclusively for BR disc. NOBODY! All soundtracks are created for theatrical releases, and are ported over to BR and DVD. If there was no BR, then those tracks would be ported over to DVD just like they've been for ten years. If the DVD format failed, I would still be mixing. If the bluray format fails, I would still be mixing. I have done "enhanced for Hometheater" mixes exclusively for DVD and Bluray releases, but even if I didn't, I would still get paid.

Do you see how unintelligent you can be while trying to appear intelligent?

Yeah, that's a good one, little Terrence. Did you lean that one in grade-school?

I don't recall leaning on anything in grade school, though I learned alot

Who are those "several executives"?

Its on record online, look it up.

NetFlix hasn't.

Netflix doesn't have brick and motar stores.

Haven't seen any BR disks at my local Target, but if that's so, I'll give you that one.

There are three in my area, and they all have BR disc. Maybe you are looking hard enough.

I don't shop at wallmart, but I thought they were going HDDVD. Please correct me if I'm wrong. I could be. I'm only human - I do make mistakes.

Yes we know. Walmart has never stated they were going HD DVD only, don't know where you got that information. Walmart has stated that they will feature the Sony BD-S300 prominately in there stores. HD DVD players will be available on their online stores, but not featured in every Walmart store. Sam's Club(Walmart owned) no longer carries the X-box HD DVD drive, nor does it carry a Toshiba HD DVD player in their stores. They don't even carry them online.

So you say "they" paid them off? Sounds a little shady. What are you saying?

You really don't know anything about this war do you? The HD DVD PG(which is Toshiba and Microsoft) offered $150 million in incentives to Paramount and Dreamworks to discontinue supporting Bluray. Since I used to work at Paramount, I got the details from my former co-workers. The deal provides free authoring services provided by Microsoft using VC-1, price breaks and assistance on obtaining endcaps at the retail level. Paid assistance in advertising and distribution. All of this until after christmas 2008. The HD DVD PG knew that having Universal as their only exclusive studio was not going to sustain the format through next year, because Universal release schedule was not that strong(they only had Bourne Ultimatum as a big release for the fourth quarter). However with no War of the Worlds, no Saving Private Ryan, no Minority Report, no Indiana Jones trilogy, and no Amblin Pictures included in that deal, the deal appears to be all about nothing.

Time is important, especially given this holiday season.

Transformers and Shrek is all they have during the holiday season. Katzenberg has already stated that he doesn't think Shrek the Third will do that well. Time with quality releases is important, no just time itself.

So "everyone who understands this industry" is in the BR camp. And "everyone" in the HDDVD camp is just a simpleton who doesn't understand the industry? Can I quote you on that bit of wisdom?

How did you get that out of "Everyone who understands this industry has stated such."? Quote me on what I actually said, not what you made up. Thanks

Gotta slow you down there, little Terrence. They are neutral, that's all. This is not an indication that they are calling a winner. If there's a few things I know about life across the pond: everything costs more, the people are a lot more careful about where they spend their money, and they hold onto technology a lot longer as long as it still works. It's a cultural thing, I suppose, but they will not be as lemming-like as you may want them to be.

I never said they called a winner, I said they went neutral. Your reading skills suck man!
Having a large exclusive studio with a huge catalog going neutral hurts HD DVD. Having the top five independent european studios go from exclusive to neutral does as well. Now you can sit there and say that is not a sign of anything, but you would be stewing in your own ignorance on that one.

Well, maybe, but if you look at the economics of this, it's not that simple. Even with BR ahead by a 2-1 margin, you still have 8 guys on the BR side fighting it out and beating each other up while on the HDDVD side, you've got one fellar keeping all the profits for himself. One could hardly say that the BR camp is in a better position with this example.

Please tell me there is more than air between those ears. Having eight guys releasing eight different players all in different price catagories, and with different profile structures shows wide industry support for your format. This was part of the reason VHS beat beta. The burden is spread out amoung 8 different players(meaning companies) in the market. Toshiba has to shoulder the entire burden alone.

So let's test your theory on this scenario. If some local natural event happens that can effect Sony manufacturing plants in japan(a major earthquake lets say) you have 7 other manufacturers that can get a bluray player to market. If it effects Toshiba, that's it, no players to market. You don't think that is a negative for Toshiba, and a benefit for bluray?

Again, let's not be so simplistic, little Terrence. Those 8 months of HDDVD leading the race have allowed it to flood the market with products. You could look at it another way, it could just be that the BR camp is just catching up. For example, how many frees-standing HDDVD players are actually in people's homes compared to BR? I'm going to guess there are more HDDVD players, but I'm sure you can give us exact figures, right?

First, a flood is hardly what I would call Toshiba doing. They could only manufacture 50k A1 and XA1 in that 8 months, and they didn't come close to selling them all in that 8 month period. That comes from Toshiba themselves. They lost a ton of money on these players because they sold them at a loss from the onset. During that same time period there was only one bluray player on the market, and that was the Samsung BDP-1000, an average player at best. It sold meserably. Software sales were 1.5-1 in HD DVD favor. In November of 2006 Sony released its standalone player and the PS3, as did Pioneer. By January 2007 bluray was outselling HD DVD software by 2-1, and its remained that way since. In that same time period there were twice as many bluray players in peoples homes(thanks to the PS3) than HD DVD. It was just that simple. Trying to twist it another way is most definately misleading.

Well didn't you say that the studios were gona wait and see what the consumers will be doing this holiday season? I think your exact words were: "...Warner has already said (and confirmed by my good friend who is an executive there), that it will not make any decision on which side to take till after christmas. ... Paramount is HD DVD exclusive till christmas 2008, and Universal agreement is up at the end of this year." No, I think the studios are going to wait this out as well.

What you think is immaterial to the facts. Warner and Universal are the tipping point here. If Warner goes blu exclusive, the war is effectively over. If Universal goes neutral the war is over. Warner has already publicly stated that the window of oportunity is closing on HDM on disc, and that if one format starts to pull ahead of the other significantly, they will move there support to that format. Universal cannot afford to wait it out. Everyone knows that profits are falling on DVD sales, and they are running out of catalog titles to release. So the studios NEED for either HD DVD or Bluray to succeed and why this holiday season will decide many things. Wait it out, that is your uniformed opinion, but not the reality of the situation.

Hey what do you know, another contradiction.

That is not a contridiction of you actually read what I have previously said. Reading comprehension is good.

I intend to. It will be priceless to see you eat those words (although you're pretty good at denying it when you're already doing so).

You got me. It will be hard to pin you down on anything in this discussion. You have offered nothing. But we will see if a shipment of players falling into the sea will drive up the prices of players already on the shelves.

They butter your bread, don't they? You're a shill, just admit it!

Everyones job butters their bread. You are also a do nothing shill, just admit it winged one.

So what? They are paying you now, right? Your livelyhood depends on BR winning this war. How can you even stand here and tell us you're impartial?

My livelyhood depends on mixing soundtracks for theatrical release, and doing independ audio engineering for music. It does not depend on BR success or failure. Drumming this over and over doesn't make this fact. It just mean you are lying over and over again.

Boy that kind of wit is astounding...

for a 5th grader! 'Come on little Terrence, grow up.

Well if a fifth grader can see that you are as transparent as you are, then he is damn smart.

What a way to make a mountain out of a molehill. I said that the number of people owning both formats was insignificant, and then you say "It certainly doesn't ride to the height of those that have picked a side." This is exactly what I said, but you find a way to make it sound like more.

You said its odd, and nobody is going to purchase two players to support each format. I pointed out that many folks already have, and that it is not odd to want access to all of the studio HD offerings. You are trying to make nothing out of something no matter how small it is. Nobody knows exactly how many people have purchase both formats players. However if you leave audioreview and travel around to other websites, you will find that quite a few folks have already done it. Quite a few folks appear quite satisfied with their purchases, so much so that many list them in the signature just like I do.

Nice details but you can't say that's why the player's not selling - you're only speculating. I'll tell you why it's not selling: most people don't want both formats.

You have no idea of what most people want, did you ask them? That is exactly why the player isn't selling. Its too expensive, not certified as a HD DVD player, and not up to date with the HDMI connection. I can get a A2 and a PS3 for less than that player, and that is exactly what many dual format folks have done.

Are these facts enough to offset an 8 month head start by the HDDVD camp? How many players are actually in people's homes? For all you know this may just be BR catching up and riding that wave.

Apparently these fact are enough because it happen didn't it. Why am I asking you this, you don't appear to know much of anything about the subject.

I never said I would. I am only telling people that what you are presenting as facts is only part of the picture. You are so focussed on that one part that you can't even see that it's not complete. It's just childish, really, just like your petty insults. Grow up and show a backbone, already.

Okay, now here is an individual who hasn't a clue about the history of video formats. No clue about the details of anything to do with the HD format war. No clue about what venue soundtracks are created for. Thinks that players pricing is like trading pork bellies on the stock market, hasn't a clue about disc replication, doesn't read any online announcements or news regarding these HD formats, doesn't work in the industry, has no context or pespective concering the film industry, doesn't own a player from either format, and doesn't really know much about anything to do with the subject matter, but wants to debate the issue.

The only thing that you have proven in all of these pages of comments is that you have more balls than brains. Go to your local store, and buy a clue winged one.