Blockbuster to favor Blu-ray HD discs over DVD format

[pixelthis]

TOSHIBA has exelent customer service...they need it
Tosh 32in, looked like a cartoon after six months, broke after eight.
Brother bought the next years model, broke after a year and a half, NOBODY would
touch it, finally a friend fixed it and it worked another six months.
Traded a perfectly good panny player because I had to have componet, after about eight
mos a slight banding problem showed up, got worse as time went along, and the dts
dropped out completely. Gave it away.
But toshi has its followers, usually peeps who have low expectations on performance.
The one of many reasons I havent jumped into the pool in hd discs yet is I am scared of trying another tosh product, and cant afford bluray.
If these guys developed the format I know I dont want it
On another note mr peabody I AM HOPING FOR SOME CONCERT AND VIDEO COLLECTIONS , these you can watch over and over, what are these guys waiting for?

[drseid]

Dave, have you compared the analog out to the digital out sound of either HD player? It would be very convenient vor me to use the digital out but I'd have to go through some pains to get to the back and connect the analog outs. But if the newer HD sound is noticeably better, it could be worth the pain.

I really am looking hard at either the Sony s300 or Panasonic dmp bd10a. I believe with the Panny there is a potential of 10 free movies. 5 from them and 5 from a general Blu ray promo. I have to research how that works. Anyone else interested the info is on www.bluray.com

Sorry for the belated response... Just got back from a vacation in Vegas...

I have only tried the analog outs on the Toshiba to test Dolby TrueHd versus the regular. I have found that there is a big difference on certain action films with the bass being much more controlled and seemingly lower. Certan subtle sounds can also be heard more clearly with its use... I would say it is worth using for DolbyTrueHD. Dolby Digital Plus I have found to be little different from regular DD or DTS and in those cases I tend just to use the digital outs.

On the Sony I have not invested in the cables to hook up the analog outs for 5.1, but now that the player supports DD TrueHD, I will do so. I would expect the Sony (including the S300) to perform equally well as my experience with the Toshiba in this regard. Both players have poor analog audio bass management options... I run all of my speakers full range, but those with sub sat systems or smaller speakers beware... Maybe Sony has improved the bass management for the S300?

---Dave

[drseid]

TOSHIBA has exelent customer service...they need it
Tosh 32in, looked like a cartoon after six months, broke after eight.
Brother bought the next years model, broke after a year and a half, NOBODY would
touch it, finally a friend fixed it and it worked another six months.
Traded a perfectly good panny player because I had to have componet, after about eight
mos a slight banding problem showed up, got worse as time went along, and the dts
dropped out completely. Gave it away.
But toshi has its followers, usually peeps who have low expectations on performance.
The one of many reasons I havent jumped into the pool in hd discs yet is I am scared of trying another tosh product, and cant afford bluray.
If these guys developed the format I know I dont want it
On another note mr peabody I AM HOPING FOR SOME CONCERT AND VIDEO COLLECTIONS , these you can watch over and over, what are these guys waiting for?

Certanly your perogative not to support anything Toshiba puts out and I respect your feelings... I have actually had the same negative experience, but with Sony TVs... I guess I never learn because I keep buying them anyway as the picture quality tends to be pretty good. I just now make sure that I get a good in-home extended warranty as I know I will use it *many* times.... ;-)

The video electronics brands I have had the best luck with are Panasonic and Denon. Both don't have places in my system anymore... go figure. Maybe if either ever release a HD DVD/Blu-ray combo player I would pounce on it.

---Dave

[pixelthis]

Certanly your perogative not to support anything Toshiba puts out and I respect your feelings... I have actually had the same negative experience, but with Sony TVs... I guess I never learn because I keep buying them anyway as the picture quality tends to be pretty good. I just now make sure that I get a good in-home extended warranty as I know I will use it *many* times.... ;-)

The video electronics brands I have had the best luck with are Panasonic and Denon. Both don't have places in my system anymore... go figure. Maybe if either ever release a HD DVD/Blu-ray combo player I would pounce on it.

---Dave

Yeah, panny makes reliable but somewhat utilitarian products, as for sony you cant beat the picture, never had A sony break on me (TV anyway) but right now I am going for pix size
Denon is great, had two, but they tend to roll off their highs
Had a top of the line denon once, 75w into two channels, 595( about 1800 in todays dollars) last piece of pure audiophile gear I had, even tho my current receiver has things like a phono stage, "pure audio" etc.
But with tosh the experience has been almost universally bad, when they screw something up they really aim for the bleachers.
One thing I noticed on this site is being called a "basher" or "negative" simply stating the facts.
Well, modern electronics are expensive, and you have to mail them off when they break,
mostly, and tosh doesnt even pass the minimum standard of reliable, at least to me, and I want people to know, is all.
For all of the features they put on modern devices the best by far is not having to unplug
and uninstall it and mail it off, just putting it in and enjoying it.
This is not hard to do and is the least you should expect

[Mr Peabody]

I haven't owned a lot of Toshiba but my luck with them has been good. I had problems with my Sony 32" tube HDTV and one of their DVD players. My Denon DVD player has been great but I understand it was built for them by Panasonic. My brother has a Denon HT receiver a few years old, I have heard several others and they don't seem to roll off the highs now.

[Mr Peabody]

Guess who rented 2 Blu-ray discs from Blockbuster this weekend? Anyone guess me? What can you do when it's the only game in town with what you want. They also have a deal where you can pay $9.95 per year and get your rentals for $2.99, opposed to $4.99, no credit card necessary. Also, if you rent.... 4 or 5? movies a month you get a rental free.

[pixelthis]

Guess who rented 2 Blu-ray discs from Blockbuster this weekend? Anyone guess me? What can you do when it's the only game in town with what you want. They also have a deal where you can pay $9.95 per year and get your rentals for $2.99, opposed to $4.99, no credit card necessary. Also, if you rent.... 4 or 5? movies a month you get a rental free.

I used to belong to their rewards club, save a ton.
And it looks like you picked right Mr P, Target has joined the blu-ray "club",
and this trickle of bad news will be a flood soon, its a cascade effect for a doomed format,
wont be long before its adios for HDDVD

[drseid]

Not to comment on the choice being good or bad, but Target has not really joined the Blu-ray club, per se. I guess you could say they have joined the Blu-ray *player* club though... They have announced they will offer a Blu-ray player (and have no announcements pending for any HD DVD player to the best of my knowledge). They offer the software for both formats, however, and they have said they do not rule out offering HD DVD players in the future (but have no plans to do so currently).

---Dave

[pixelthis]

Not to comment on the choice being good or bad, but Target has not really joined the Blu-ray club, per se. I guess you could say they have joined the Blu-ray *player* club though... They have announced they will offer a Blu-ray player (and have no announcements pending for any HD DVD player to the best of my knowledge). They offer the software for both formats, however, and they have said they do not rule out offering HD DVD players in the future (but have no plans to do so currently).

---Dave

they are hedging their bets.
Software is a lot easier to get rid of from an orphan market. A savy bunch of
marketers (target has been called wallmart with class) is betting that Blu-ray wins.
This is signifigant, and more bad news for HDDVD

[PeruvianSkies]

Not to comment on the choice being good or bad, but Target has not really joined the Blu-ray club, per se. I guess you could say they have joined the Blu-ray *player* club though... They have announced they will offer a Blu-ray player (and have no announcements pending for any HD DVD player to the best of my knowledge). They offer the software for both formats, however, and they have said they do not rule out offering HD DVD players in the future (but have no plans to do so currently).

---Dave

Can you buy an Xbox360 from Target? w/ HD-DVD upgrade?

[nightflier]

I realize the Target & Blockbuster news does not bode well for the HD-DVD camp. But if there is one thing I do know about this industry, it is that formats die slowly, and sometimes are revived against all expectations (just think of vinyl). There are also some factors to remember like fact that HD-DVD does have a few technical advantages (albeit not insurmountable ones), that neither Microsoft, Universal, nor Toshiba have thrown in the towel, that LG does have a player that supports both formats and it seems to be selling OK, and that there are thousands of people with HD-DVD players out there, even more if you count Xbox-based players. My guess is that HD-DVD will fade in the same way that DVD-A did.

But what is most troubling is that this format war has damaged both sides. Blu-Ray may find that it has won a Pyhrric victory not unlike SACD and will likely be relegated to a niche format too. Online HD downloads are becoming more & more common and will offer advantages over DVD that may suffice for most people. This is relevant, too: HD downloads will offer advantages even to the millions who have HD sets but not 1080p capabilities (like all those people with only Component inputs and not HDMI). I dare say that this format war may thus have negatively affected the growth of 1080p TVs and equipment, too.

The bottom line is that a format war such as this one has far more of a downside than people think. Everyone would have been much better off if both camps had merged the technologies before bringing them to market. One hopes that there is still the possibility, however small, of bringing both technologies together into one disk format. But to cheer on the victory of one side over the other could perhaps do more damage than good.

[pixelthis]

I realize the Target & Blockbuster news does not bode well for the HD-DVD camp. But if there is one thing I do know about this industry, it is that formats die slowly, and sometimes are revived against all expectations (just think of vinyl). There are also some factors to remember like fact that HD-DVD does have a few technical advantages (albeit not insurmountable ones), that neither Microsoft, Universal, nor Toshiba have thrown in the towel, that LG does have a player that supports both formats and it seems to be selling OK, and that there are thousands of people with HD-DVD players out there, even more if you count Xbox-based players. My guess is that HD-DVD will fade in the same way that DVD-A did.

But what is most troubling is that this format war has damaged both sides. Blu-Ray may find that it has won a Pyhrric victory not unlike SACD and will likely be relegated to a niche format too. Online HD downloads are becoming more & more common and will offer advantages over DVD that may suffice for most people. This is relevant, too: HD downloads will offer advantages even to the millions who have HD sets but not 1080p capabilities (like all those people with only Component inputs and not HDMI). I dare say that this format war may thus have negatively affected the growth of 1080p TVs and equipment, too.

The bottom line is that a format war such as this one has far more of a downside than people think. Everyone would have been much better off if both camps had merged the technologies before bringing them to market. One hopes that there is still the possibility, however small, of bringing both technologies together into one disk format. But to cheer on the victory of one side over the other could perhaps do more damage than good.

I bought my first VCR in the early eighties, it was a vhs.
Sure I preferred the sony, and the selection was about even with models from both camps,
but everybody I knew was buying vhs, and I liked the six hour record time also, and it wasnt a casual purchase, at 899$ it was roughly three grand in todays dollars, you couldnt buy something you couldnt rent tapes for.
Well, in a year Sony was GONE, you could only buy them in a few stores, adios.
A local rental store touting beta went outta business, wouldnt stop renting the tapes because they were "better".
I had lasedisc for years, after the advent of DVD It too was pretty much over in a year.
And vinyl is a special case, a niche product if ever there was one, kept alive by audiophiles
either living in denial or (like me) an attachment to their old discs.
The truth is that industry insiders have already discerned a "winner", and its blu-ray.
HDDVD will be pretty much gone in a year, guarentee it, especially if the only (one!) studio supporting it starts in with Blu-ray.
HDDVD, the edsel for the 21st century

[drseid]

I bought my first VCR in the early eighties, it was a vhs.
Sure I preferred the sony, and the selection was about even with models from both camps,
but everybody I knew was buying vhs, and I liked the six hour record time also, and it wasnt a casual purchase, at 899$ it was roughly three grand in todays dollars, you couldnt buy something you couldnt rent tapes for.
Well, in a year Sony was GONE, you could only buy them in a few stores, adios.
A local rental store touting beta went outta business, wouldnt stop renting the tapes because they were "better".
I had lasedisc for years, after the advent of DVD It too was pretty much over in a year.
And vinyl is a special case, a niche product if ever there was one, kept alive by audiophiles
either living in denial or (like me) an attachment to their old discs.
The truth is that industry insiders have already discerned a "winner", and its blu-ray.
HDDVD will be pretty much gone in a year, guarentee it, especially if the only (one!) studio supporting it starts in with Blu-ray.
HDDVD, the edsel for the 21st century

What do we get it HD DVD lasts more than a year and you fail on the gaurantee? ;-)

I am certainly not proclaiming HD DVD the winner or anything like it, but I am pretty confident it will be around much longer than a year... I guess we will see.

Also, keep in mind HD DVD has many studios that support it, I assume you are referring to the one *major* studio that supports it *exclusively*?

---Dave

[Groundbeef]

Can you buy an Xbox360 from Target? w/ HD-DVD upgrade?

Yes. Both are available from Target.

[PeruvianSkies]

Yes. Both are available from Target.

So if Target carries this at least you can still shop there (if you are a 1-stop shopper) and get either HD-DVD or Blu-ray discs and player(s). Although, this format seems more like a niche format, but let's face it...it's certainly getting more promotion than many of us expected...the fact that Walmart has a whole shelf area dedicated to High Definition discs blew me away when I first saw it. This type of exposure is certainly generating some sales, unlike things like SACD*, which went under the radar. This brings up a particular question that I am always asking myself...

What do people prefer...high end audio or high end video?

It would seem that the market certainly wants to attract people with video rather than audio and that is a sad thing. For example...

I have seen people with a huge 100" projector system in their house that cost thousands of dollars with a crappy all-in-one audio setup and peoples mouths drop and comment on how awesome so and so's home theater is....meanwhile, they wouldn't say the same thing if they saw my 30" HDTV flanked with nearly 10K worth of audio stuff.

*which by the way I was working at a music store when SACD's were first being introduced and I remember Sony sending us 1 copy of every single title they were releasing for SACD. They sent them to us to 'test' how it would do without any other type of promotion...not even a product endcap to display the merchandise. Needless to say, a few months went by and only a small handful of them sold. Got a memo from Sony shortly thereafter ordering us to destroy all of the SACD's....here is a somewhat paraphrased version of what ensued on the telephone....

ME: I can't destroy these!
Corporate: You must destroy them!
ME: Can I say that I destroyed them, but really just took them home?
Corporate: If you do, than you can just stay home permanently and not return here.
ME: Can't we at least TRY and sell them?
Corporate: We have a mandate from Sony telling us to destroy them, now just do it!
ME: What if I am crushing the SACD's and I happen to be in the parking lot and a few of them find their way into my car?
Corporate: Just destroy them.

There were many instances at that store where we were ordered to destroy product regardless of its condition. I never understood this. We were never allowed to take it home, but I'll never tell if I did or not!

[Mr Peabody]

The war may also rage longer if Warner goes ahead with the dual format discs. This project has been postponed, I think to the end of the year, but if the attitude prevails that Blu-ray won, it may not happen.

[Groundbeef]

What do people prefer...high end audio or high end video?

It would seem that the market certainly wants to attract people with video rather than audio and that is a sad thing. For example...

!

Its not really a question of what do they prefer, but rather what are they willing to spend big bucks on.

I for one spend the money on the Video (50" Pioneer Plasma) and spent moderate on the audio (Pioneer Receiver, and JBL speakers).

Frankly, I felt that I got a better deal with the higher end video, and am less concerned with the audio.

Part of the problem I think for consumers in audio shopping is the lack of distinction between Watts (Power) and the actual sound quality. How many times have you seen 1500 WATTS on the side of a "Box Surrond System". People are attracted to the large watts, and not so much on actual quality because for most of them more power equals better sound.

Plus, unless you are in a boutique (sp0 audio shop, it is VERY difficult to hear, let alone compare various components. In the big box shops, loud is king.

It is easier to compare say two 50" plasma TV's. Oh look, that one has a sharper picture...etc.

Shocking as it may seem, most regular consumers don't get all wrapped up around high end sound. Its just not as important to them as it is to the passionated audiophiles lurking around in here.

[nightflier]

Part of the problem I think for consumers in audio shopping is the lack of distinction between Watts (Power) and the actual sound quality. How many times have you seen 1500 WATTS on the side of a "Box Surrond System". People are attracted to the large watts, and not so much on actual quality because for most of them more power equals better sound.

I also think it's confusion, a lot like the different model numbers they label Intel & AMD CPUs with these days. Joe Average, shopping at CC and BB, doesn't understand the details of the specs on the box. And don't expect him to read the manual, either ("Manual? There was a Manual? I thought it was part of the packing..."). For him, it has to look good next to his TV and be able to play loud. Actually if it just looks good and reasonably expensive (e.g. with the word Bose/Sony/etc. on it), then that's really all that matters - hence the reason that the TV, representing visual acceptance, is so much more important.

Plus, unless you are in a boutique (sp0 audio shop, it is VERY difficult to hear, let alone compare various components. In the big box shops, loud is king.

There's a reason for that: companies (not to name names again, but Bose does seem to always float to the top of the septic tank), pay for placement in a store (yes, also at Walmart & Target). And you can be pretty certain they won't want their speakers sitting right next to Martin Logans, uh, I mean next to Harman Kardons, well, actually not even next to Sonys. And with Joe Average's favorite magazines and websites (Consumer Reports, Sound & Vision, C-Net, etc.) spouting off nonsense that these brands are just as good, how will Joe know any different?

It is easier to compare say two 50" plasma TV's. Oh look, that one has a sharper picture...etc.

Until someone adjusts contrast, brightness, etc. to make the expensive one look worse. ("Wow, look mabel, I can't tell the difference anymore, so let's buy the cheaper one...") TVs are items that really do benefit from critical reviewing, but how many of those reviews actually compare similarly priced and featured models?

Shocking as it may seem, most regular consumers don't get all wrapped up around high end sound. Its just not as important to them as it is to the passionated audiophiles lurking around in here.

Actually there is one test you can perform that will work for just about anyone who doesn't have decades of wax stuffed in his ears: listen at low volume. A good sound system does not require high volume. If you can a/b two setups for someone in the same room, most people will pick the higher-end system when listening at low volumes. It always amazes me how many people make a purchasing decision because something sounded so good at a loud volume in the store.

Now getting back to the topic, it may very well be that the HD format that can sound the best at low volumes, will be the one audiophiles will choose. Unfortunately the one that appears to look best in the store (at that could be either one) will be the one Joe Average buys. Therefore, Joe Average will not decide who wins this format war. And since there is still enough selection on both sides, this also will not sway Joe Average. What will sway him is cost, and there, HD-DVD has the edge. Until BR comes down into the same price range, it is still too soon to call a winner.

What is sad is that the winner in this format war is being called mostly based on which side is selling the most right now. For audiophiles, that barometer should be anathema to everything he believes.

[GMichael]

. What will sway him is cost, and there, HD-DVD has the edge. Until BR comes down into the same price range, it is still too soon to call a winner.

What is sad is that the winner in this format war is being called mostly based on which side is selling the most right now. For audiophiles, that barometer should be anathema to everything he believes.

But there are also those "I believe I'm better than Joe" Average people out there who equate a higher price with better quality. I submit Bose as my example as well.

[Groundbeef]

But there are also those "I believe I'm better than Joe" Average people out there who equate a higher price with better quality. I submit Bose as my example as well.

I was "reading" my Playboy Magazine a few months back, and they had a section on High-End Audio equipment. The name totally escapes me, but the price did not. The speakers for a pair were about $250,000. Now, that doesn't equate to quality. That equates to " I have a bigger weiner than you, can't you see my $250,000 speakers".

I think that there are extremes on both ends of the market. Unless that speaker does the dishes, washes my car, and does other things when not playing music I fail to see how that much money equates into quality either.

And certainly not to inflame the anti-Bose crowd here, but why is everyone (mostly) against them? I don't own any Bose, but my mother in law has that little table top player, and frankly it doesn't sound bad at all. Perhaps she paid to much for it, but so what? Its not like people that buy Bose are killing baby seals, and burning churches on their off time.

Is it that people don't like the marketing end or what?

[GMichael]

I was "reading" my Playboy Magazine a few months back, and they had a section on High-End Audio equipment. The name totally escapes me, but the price did not. The speakers for a pair were about $250,000. Now, that doesn't equate to quality. That equates to " I have a bigger weiner than you, can't you see my $250,000 speakers".

I think that there are extremes on both ends of the market. Unless that speaker does the dishes, washes my car, and does other things when not playing music I fail to see how that much money equates into quality either.

And certainly not to inflame the anti-Bose crowd here, but why is everyone (mostly) against them? I don't own any Bose, but my mother in law has that little table top player, and frankly it doesn't sound bad at all. Perhaps she paid to much for it, but so what? Its not like people that buy Bose are killing baby seals, and burning churches on their off time.

Is it that people don't like the marketing end or what?

I don't know of any Bose systems for $250,000. Wasn't going to that extreme. Average Joe can't afford them.

Out in the so called real world, Average Joe has been convinced that Bose is the absolute best that money can buy. They cost more than many systems that are much better than they are, but people buy the Bose anyhow. Why? Because they cost more and are therefore the best. Keep in mind that most of these average Joe's have never dreamed of a 1/4 mil speaker. They think that Bose is the most expensive available because they have the highest price tag at CC and BB.

I do own a Bose system in my car. It's not bad. But it's not the end all, top of the line, best money can buy, system that Bose and Average Joe would have us believe. Once in a while, Joe comes here. He brags about his new Lifestyle system and how it does everything (maybe it will wash your car, and feet, for you)

There is no doubt that there are those who buy Bose simply because they cost more, and are therefore better. I've met many of them. Thought they were going to lynch me for saying that Bose wasn't the best. You should have seen the fire in their eyes as they got back into their BMW's and sped off.

[Groundbeef]

I don't know of any Bose systems for $250,000. Wasn't going to that extreme. Average Joe can't afford them.

.

It wasn't Bose. It was some sort of handmade wood speaker system. I'll try to look it up, but what a chore, digging through months and months of Playboy.

The point is that there are extremes on both ends. To some point, people DO spend more money because money=quality. Does $250,000 for a pair of speakers though really perform better than say a pair for $10,000? I doubt it.

[Woochifer]

I realize the Target & Blockbuster news does not bode well for the HD-DVD camp. But if there is one thing I do know about this industry, it is that formats die slowly, and sometimes are revived against all expectations (just think of vinyl).

You're right in the sense that formats die slowly (Betamax didn't "die" until 2002 when Sony finally stopped producing Beta VCRs), but once formats get relegated to the back aisles, they never get "revivied" (think cassette, 8-track, Minidisc, DCC, CED, Laserdisc, D-VHS, DIVX, etc.) Vinyl's an example of a mass market format that has been relegated to a niche format. I still own a turntable and occasionally buy new LPs, but most of the music I'm looking for isn't available on vinyl and if it is, will usually cost a lot more than the CD. Personally, I think that the periodic talk of vinyl revivals is more wishful thinking than anything reality-based. HD-DVD does not have any potential for future revival since it uses the same underlying video and audio codecs as Blu-ray.

But what is most troubling is that this format war has damaged both sides. Blu-Ray may find that it has won a Pyhrric victory not unlike SACD and will likely be relegated to a niche format too. Online HD downloads are becoming more & more common and will offer advantages over DVD that may suffice for most people. This is relevant, too: HD downloads will offer advantages even to the millions who have HD sets but not 1080p capabilities (like all those people with only Component inputs and not HDMI). I dare say that this format war may thus have negatively affected the growth of 1080p TVs and equipment, too.

I think you're right that this format war has had a net effect of impeding the market growth for HD optical media. Plenty of home theater owners who would've otherwise jumped in by now are still sitting out until they see a winner emerge, and the format war has created plenty of confusion and ill will.

I used to think that HD downloads would emerge sooner than later, thus creating a more time-critical imperative for one or both formats to gain market traction in a hurry. But, I think now that the primary factors that will make or break the market prospects for HD optical discs are how entrenched the DVD format has become, and whether the public considers HD a big enough deal to pay extra. The reason I'm less sold on HD downloads/HD VOD is because HD VOD remains less than "on-demand" at prevailing household broadband speeds (fiber broadband remains too expensive and unavailable in much of the country), and most of the existing HD download schemes I'm aware of put time and/or view limits on the user, making them nothing more than glorified rentals. So long as these limitations remain in place, the market for HD optical media will be more affected by factors other than competition from on-demand services.

The market for HDTVs has exploded well into the mass market, but much of this is simply due to the declining options on the market for non-HDTVs. People are now very likely to replace their current TV with a HDTV, whether they care about HD resolution or not. I don't think the format war has impeded 1080p at all. Manufacturers would still throw those numbers around even if Blu-ray and HD-DVD did not exist (all you have to do is look at all of the "upconverting" 1080p DVD players out there). I think the broader availability of 1080p models was one major reason that LCD zoomed ahead of plasma in market share.

Part of the problem I think for consumers in audio shopping is the lack of distinction between Watts (Power) and the actual sound quality. How many times have you seen 1500 WATTS on the side of a "Box Surrond System". People are attracted to the large watts, and not so much on actual quality because for most of them more power equals better sound.

Well, there's also the form factor to consider as well. Consumers more and more are letting design and decor considerations dictate their audio equipment choices. Look no further than the growth of the on-wall speaker market (which did not even exist five years ago), and the continued popularity of the Bose Acoustimass system and its many sub/sat imitators. They could care less about specs as long as their speakers "match" their new flat panel TV.

Plus, unless you are in a boutique (sp0 audio shop, it is VERY difficult to hear, let alone compare various components. In the big box shops, loud is king.

It is easier to compare say two 50" plasma TV's. Oh look, that one has a sharper picture...etc.

Shocking as it may seem, most regular consumers don't get all wrapped up around high end sound. Its just not as important to them as it is to the passionated audiophiles lurking around in here.

Very true, and that's how it has always been. For example, lots of audiophiles get all wrapped up in the virtues of vinyl, but forget that when vinyl was the dominant format, most consumers played their LPs using record changers with stack spindles, crappy sounding detachable speakers, and spherical sapphire needles (and often a penny taped to the headshell to keep the needle from skipping!). Nowadays, it's all about downloads (but, compared to the sound of those old record changers, the MP3 is a huge step forward). The mass market has always been about what sounds "good enough" at their price point.

And you're right in that demonstrating the benefits of a high end audio system requires a reasonably quiet room with decent acoustics, and a properly done setup. Differentiating between 480p and 1080p in a warehouse club can be done, and the difference is apparent even in passing. Hearing the difference between a CD and SACD or between DD and TrueHD requires a lot more than just a random HTIB sitting in the middle of a noisy warehouse.

[GMichael]

It wasn't Bose. It was some sort of handmade wood speaker system. I'll try to look it up, but what a chore, digging through months and months of Playboy.

The point is that there are extremes on both ends. To some point, people DO spend more money because money=quality. Does $250,000 for a pair of speakers though really perform better than say a pair for $10,000? I doubt it.

There's a pair here in AR's review section. Just sort by price. Or you could just flip though all those PB mags.

$250,000 sound better than $10,000? Maybe, but I probably can't tell. But most people would say that a $3k Bose system is better than a $1k anything else system. OK, so none of those people are here. But we only make up a small percentage of the population.

Some people will view BR as better than HD because they see it priced higher. They may still buy the HD, but in their minds they'll be thinking they wish they could get the better system. (I'm not saying BR IS better, just that they will think it) People with a little extra income will buy BR for the same reason. Right or wrong, it's what people do.

[pixelthis]

You're right in the sense that formats die slowly (Betamax didn't "die" until 2002 when Sony finally stopped producing Beta VCRs), but once formats get relegated to the back aisles, they never get "revivied" (think cassette, 8-track, Minidisc, DCC, CED, Laserdisc, D-VHS, DIVX, etc.) Vinyl's an example of a mass market format that has been relegated to a niche format. I still own a turntable and occasionally buy new LPs, but most of the music I'm looking for isn't available on vinyl and if it is, will usually cost a lot more than the CD. Personally, I think that the periodic talk of vinyl revivals is more wishful thinking than anything reality-based. HD-DVD does not have any potential for future revival since it uses the same underlying video and audio codecs as Blu-ray.



I think you're right that this format war has had a net effect of impeding the market growth for HD optical media. Plenty of home theater owners who would've otherwise jumped in by now are still sitting out until they see a winner emerge, and the format war has created plenty of confusion and ill will.

I used to think that HD downloads would emerge sooner than later, thus creating a more time-critical imperative for one or both formats to gain market traction in a hurry. But, I think now that the primary factors that will make or break the market prospects for HD optical discs are how entrenched the DVD format has become, and whether the public considers HD a big enough deal to pay extra. The reason I'm less sold on HD downloads/HD VOD is because HD VOD remains less than "on-demand" at prevailing household broadband speeds (fiber broadband remains too expensive and unavailable in much of the country), and most of the existing HD download schemes I'm aware of put time and/or view limits on the user, making them nothing more than glorified rentals. So long as these limitations remain in place, the market for HD optical media will be more affected by factors other than competition from on-demand services.

The market for HDTVs has exploded well into the mass market, but much of this is simply due to the declining options on the market for non-HDTVs. People are now very likely to replace their current TV with a HDTV, whether they care about HD resolution or not. I don't think the format war has impeded 1080p at all. Manufacturers would still throw those numbers around even if Blu-ray and HD-DVD did not exist (all you have to do is look at all of the "upconverting" 1080p DVD players out there). I think the broader availability of 1080p models was one major reason that LCD zoomed ahead of plasma in market share.



Well, there's also the form factor to consider as well. Consumers more and more are letting design and decor considerations dictate their audio equipment choices. Look no further than the growth of the on-wall speaker market (which did not even exist five years ago), and the continued popularity of the Bose Acoustimass system and its many sub/sat imitators. They could care less about specs as long as their speakers "match" their new flat panel TV.



Very true, and that's how it has always been. For example, lots of audiophiles get all wrapped up in the virtues of vinyl, but forget that when vinyl was the dominant format, most consumers played their LPs using record changers with stack spindles, crappy sounding detachable speakers, and spherical sapphire needles (and often a penny taped to the headshell to keep the needle from skipping!). Nowadays, it's all about downloads (but, compared to the sound of those old record changers, the MP3 is a huge step forward). The mass market has always been about what sounds "good enough" at their price point.

And you're right in that demonstrating the benefits of a high end audio system requires a reasonably quiet room with decent acoustics, and a properly done setup. Differentiating between 480p and 1080p in a warehouse club can be done, and the difference is apparent even in passing. Hearing the difference between a CD and SACD or between DD and TrueHD requires a lot more than just a random HTIB sitting in the middle of a noisy warehouse.

It was pretty much over for beta in the early eighties.
Sony and a few amateur videographers kept it alive, but at the last the few that were sold were superbeta and ED beta, and most sales were outside the US.
AS for audio vs video I notice that you tend to lump two different things together peruvian.
How about apples and oranges? fords and chevys?
Its a problem for audiophiles who also like video to decide how much to spend on video versus audio, but most dont think that way.
For most music is what you DL on the web, listen to on your I-pod, most arent serious listeners who just sit and listen to music like most audiphiles do.
Most would like a HT sure, who wouldnt? WE ARE A VISUAL species, for dogs its smell
(100,000 times better than humans) and bats sound.
We can watch TV all day but try to get the average person to sit and listen for just a half hour, try it.
But for the rare audiophile its a problem, I AGONIZED over getting rid of my rig and going into the compromise that was my first HT, but for most the sound from a HT is probably
better than what they're used to.
A company on this site (mangus) is selling tiny t-amp digital amps, 20 wpc feeding small speakers, trust me this type thing (digital amps) is going to be the thing for mainstream HT systems, compact and sounding pretty good.
And when a audio based company like ONKYO IS SELLING DIGITAL AMPS, well, thats the wave of the future probably, amps with discrete componets will be like turntables,
niche products for those that dont want to compromise
But I think this tread is a little offtopic.
Oh yeah, the fate of HDDVD, which is CURTAINS
I have seen stronger formats tank.
As for what you "get " if I'm right, well, its what you wont "get", an expensive doorstop
or "boatanchor"(fill with concrete, makes a great boatanchor)
And if I am wrong? No harm or foul as Blu wjll be the dominant format