RESPECT (for 249$)

[pixelthis]

At 48hz and up, you are still wrong. Now change that to 120hz and up, then we can agree.

Sorry, but you disagreeing with me is a litmus test of weather or not I am CORRECT.
Thanks.
YOU CAN GO BY WHAT THE "EXPERTS" SAY, or what your ears say.
And everytime I use a sub its like theres a big gob of bass coming outta one place.
With direct mode I CAN TELL which speaker the bass is coming out of.
Most of the time, anyway.

[audio amateur]

So your argument is really based on the frequencies between 120-160hz, which is a half octave. That is a petty argument IMO when your consider that bass from 5-120hz is truly non-directional. You are at best majoring in minors. In the future, please do not assume that I am dismissing anything until I state it.

I think you're pushing the boundaries of 'bass' when you include frequencies down to 5Hz. That's infra territory.

I know of no full range loudspeaker that has a crossover point at 160hz to any driver, do you? Even my 4 way full range loudspeaker crossover from the built in subwoofer section is done at 80hz. So my point still stands as true. If you think I am wrong, name a few loudspeaker with a driver transition point at 160hz, and I'll admit I am wrong. When you are speaking of sub-sat system, the highest crossover point that can usually be found is 120hz. With full range system, the crossover point is either lower, or much higher than 160hz.

I'm not sure why you're going on about crossovers here, they have nothing to do with what Pix or EStat said. They're not talking about crossovering at all. As Pix said, his B&W are playing full range.

Coming back to infrasonics, a good friend of mine once told my about 18Hz being the resonant frequency of the eye, which could explain certain ghost sightings near equipment/machines that generates close enough frequencies. And I've just been reading this on Wiki, it's pretty cool.

Infrasound has been known to cause feelings of awe or fear in humans.[16][17] Since it is not consciously perceived, it can make people feel vaguely that supernatural events are taking place.
Some film soundtracks make use of infrasound to produce unease or disorientation in the audience. Irréversible is one such movie.
The infrasound and low-frequency noise produced by some wind turbines is believed to cause certain breathing and digestive problems in humans and other animals in close proximity to the turbines.[18]
[edit]Infrasonic 17 Hz tone experiment
On May 31, 2003, a team of UK researchers held a mass experiment where they exposed some 700 people to music laced with soft 17 Hz sine waves played at a level described as "near the edge of hearing", produced by an extra-long stroke sub-woofer mounted two-thirds of the way from the end of a seven-meter-long plastic sewer pipe. The experimental concert (entitled Infrasonic) took place in the Purcell Room over the course of two performances, each consisting of four musical pieces. Two of the pieces in each concert had 17 Hz tones played underneath. In the second concert, the pieces that were to carry a 17 Hz undertone were swapped so that test results would not focus on any specific musical piece. The participants were not told which pieces included the low-level 17 Hz near-infrasonic tone. The presence of the tone resulted in a significant number (22%) of respondents reporting anxiety, uneasiness, extreme sorrow, nervous feelings of revulsion or fear, chills down the spine and feelings of pressure on the chest.[19][20] In presenting the evidence to British Association for the Advancement of Science, one of the scientists responsible said, "These results suggest that low frequency sound can cause people to have unusual experiences even though they cannot consciously detect infrasound. Some scientists have suggested that this level of sound may be present at some allegedly haunted sites and so cause people to have odd sensations that they attribute to a ghost—our findings support these ideas."
[edit]The Ghost in the Machine
Research by Vic Tandy, a lecturer at Coventry University, suggested that the frequency 19 Hz was responsible for many ghost sightings. He was working late one night alone in a supposedly haunted laboratory at Warwick, when he felt very anxious and could detect a grey blob out of the corner of his eye. When he turned to face it, there was nothing.
The following day, he was working on his fencing foil, with the handle held in a vice. Although there was nothing touching it, the blade started to vibrate wildly. Further investigation led him to discover that the extraction fan was emitting a frequency of 18.98 Hz, very close to the resonant frequency of the eye (given as 18 Hz in NASA Technical Report 19770013810). This was why he saw a ghostly figure — it was an optical illusion caused by his eyeballs resonating. The room was exactly half a wavelength in length, and the desk was in the centre, thus causing a standing wave which was detected by the foil.[21]
Tandy investigated this phenomenon further and wrote a paper entitled The Ghost in the Machine. He carried out a number of investigations at various sites believed to be haunted, including the basement of the Tourist Information Bureau next to Coventry Cathedral[22] and Edinburgh Castle.[23][24]

[Sir Terrence the Terrible]

LOL! Whatever you say! Who said anything about "homogenous"?

You did when you state that BASS covers from 20-160hz

Mr. Car Stereo? Great expert!

It is funny that you would define him as Mr. Car Stereo. He has produced more white papers and reviewed more subwoofers for the home than you have. And he actually did the research into stereo bass, and you have not! I find it quite ironic that you would belittle a person who has done far more research in bass acoustics and subwoofer design for both home and car than you have.

Is there an echo in the room? That was my (unanswered) question to you in post # 12 when you said the "highest crossover point is 120 hz"! They're usually much higher!

This is a irrelevant point. The point is, that is the threshold of detection of stereo content.

By whom? Mr. Car Stereo again? Obviously you've never heard a Rives Audio designed room or one using any number of commercial products.

More assumptions on your behalf. Unlike you I tune hometheaters, dubbing stages, recording studios, and listening rooms. I have measured the response of these products rather than just relying on marketing schmeel. I have measured the effect of these products in REAL ROOMS, and bass traps offered from these guys or any others are not effective in REAL ROOMS below 70hz, no matter what they advertise. That is why they created PARC. And this is from their website;

The PARC is a Parametric Adaptive Room Compensation system. Rives Audio designed the PARC because current stereo and home theater components have exceeded the capability of their environment. Today's hi end audio speakers and electronics have the capability of delivering a near flat response throughout the audible frequency range (20Hz to 20kHz).

If they really believed that room treatments could do the job alone, then why created this product? Thank you Rives Audio for making my point!

That is your preference and I have plenty of headroom. At the expense of stating the obvious, the use of any tone control or EQ boost will do that.

Which is the reason you don't use them to fill in nulls

You really cannot hear a 2 db difference in level? Then it wouldn't matter to you.

In the bass region, nobody can hear a 2db difference, our ears are not that sensitive in the bass region. Every heard of the Fletcher and Munson or equal loudness curve?

End of transmission. You have the last word. Still shaking my head. "Bass is not a range of frequencies" Ok!

rw

Who said that? I didn't. I stated that bass frequencies are not defined as you stated. Talk about twisting words.....jeeze!

[Sir Terrence the Terrible]

I think you're pushing the boundaries of 'bass' when you include frequencies down to 5Hz. That's infra territory.

Infra what AA? That would be infra bass wouldn't it? Just for the sake of argument let's move the threshold up to 20hz. Still doesn't change a damn thing does it? From 20-120hz phase differences are undetectable.

I'm not sure why you're going on about crossovers here, they have nothing to do with what Pix or EStat said. They're not talking about crossovering at all. As Pix said, his B&W are playing full range.

His speakers are not full range. With a low frequency limitation of 48hz(with no tolerance listed) his speakers are not full range. It still does not change a damn thing. The detection of stereo content does not occur until 120hz, whether a crossover is in the chain or not.

Coming back to infrasonics, a good friend of mine once told my about 18Hz being the resonant frequency of the eye, which could explain certain ghost sightings near equipment/machines that generates close enough frequencies. And I've just been reading this on Wiki, it's pretty cool.

Infrasound has been known to cause feelings of awe or fear in humans.[16][17] Since it is not consciously perceived, it can make people feel vaguely that supernatural events are taking place.
Some film soundtracks make use of infrasound to produce unease or disorientation in the audience. Irréversible is one such movie.
The infrasound and low-frequency noise produced by some wind turbines is believed to cause certain breathing and digestive problems in humans and other animals in close proximity to the turbines.[18]
[edit]Infrasonic 17 Hz tone experiment
On May 31, 2003, a team of UK researchers held a mass experiment where they exposed some 700 people to music laced with soft 17 Hz sine waves played at a level described as "near the edge of hearing", produced by an extra-long stroke sub-woofer mounted two-thirds of the way from the end of a seven-meter-long plastic sewer pipe. The experimental concert (entitled Infrasonic) took place in the Purcell Room over the course of two performances, each consisting of four musical pieces. Two of the pieces in each concert had 17 Hz tones played underneath. In the second concert, the pieces that were to carry a 17 Hz undertone were swapped so that test results would not focus on any specific musical piece. The participants were not told which pieces included the low-level 17 Hz near-infrasonic tone. The presence of the tone resulted in a significant number (22%) of respondents reporting anxiety, uneasiness, extreme sorrow, nervous feelings of revulsion or fear, chills down the spine and feelings of pressure on the chest.[19][20] In presenting the evidence to British Association for the Advancement of Science, one of the scientists responsible said, "These results suggest that low frequency sound can cause people to have unusual experiences even though they cannot consciously detect infrasound. Some scientists have suggested that this level of sound may be present at some allegedly haunted sites and so cause people to have odd sensations that they attribute to a ghost—our findings support these ideas."
[edit]The Ghost in the Machine
Research by Vic Tandy, a lecturer at Coventry University, suggested that the frequency 19 Hz was responsible for many ghost sightings. He was working late one night alone in a supposedly haunted laboratory at Warwick, when he felt very anxious and could detect a grey blob out of the corner of his eye. When he turned to face it, there was nothing.
The following day, he was working on his fencing foil, with the handle held in a vice. Although there was nothing touching it, the blade started to vibrate wildly. Further investigation led him to discover that the extraction fan was emitting a frequency of 18.98 Hz, very close to the resonant frequency of the eye (given as 18 Hz in NASA Technical Report 19770013810). This was why he saw a ghostly figure — it was an optical illusion caused by his eyeballs resonating. The room was exactly half a wavelength in length, and the desk was in the centre, thus causing a standing wave which was detected by the foil.[21]
Tandy investigated this phenomenon further and wrote a paper entitled The Ghost in the Machine. He carried out a number of investigations at various sites believed to be haunted, including the basement of the Tourist Information Bureau next to Coventry Cathedral[22] and Edinburgh Castle.[23][24]

Hmmmm so this is why an earthquake can give the illusion that the room is bending in funny directions.

[E-Stat]

If they really believed that room treatments could do the job alone, then why created this product?

This question is profoundly stupid. Because most folks (like my HT situation) cannot design their room from scratch to include them or add them afterwards. You'll find quite a few of their treated rooms that obviate the need for any electronic compensation. Duh!

Rives Room WITHOUT the need for PARC

You might note the quality of his gear is a wee bit higher than you'll find in HT systems using Japanese mid-fi stuff.

rw

[Sir Terrence the Terrible]

Sorry, but you disagreeing with me is a litmus test of weather or not I am CORRECT.
Thanks.
YOU CAN GO BY WHAT THE "EXPERTS" SAY, or what your ears say.
And everytime I use a sub its like theres a big gob of bass coming outta one place.
With direct mode I CAN TELL which speaker the bass is coming out of.
Most of the time, anyway.

Sorry you are still wrong. Pix, while I think your are strange as hell, you are not superhuman. You can say whatever you please (and you usually do) by science says that once the wavelengths of a signal become wider than our ears, the ability to detect phase differences becomes less acute. So unless your head is 11.3 ft wide or 22.5 feet wide you cannot detect the direction of a 100 hz or 50hz signal, especially not in a ordinary room full of reflections. That is science, not what the experts say.

If you use a sub, and it sounds like a big gob of bass coming out of one place, you obviously do not know how to setup or use a sub.

[Sir Terrence the Terrible]

This question is profoundly stupid. Because most folks (like my HT situation) cannot design their room from scratch to include them or add them afterwards. You'll find quite a few of their treated rooms that obviate the need for any electronic compensation. Duh!


Rives Room WITHOUT the need for PARC

You might note the quality of his gear is a wee bit higher than you'll find in HT systems using Japanese mid-fi stuff.

rw

Here is a note for you. This HT system that uses Japanese Mid-fi stuff is not stock, and not the only system I own.

Now, there is no listed tolerance for frequency deviation in that room, so just how do you know there isn't any need for electronic assistance to correct any acoustical abnormalities? You will have to do better than this to convince me that his room is perfect without EQ. A picture of a nice room with high quality equipment will not cut it in the absence of measurements, and to think it would is stupid as well. I am not the easily impressed.

[audio amateur]

Infra what AA? That would be infra bass wouldn't it?

Actually infrasonic, or infrasound if you prefer
(how I love the smart alec smiley...)

[E-Stat]

Now, there is no listed tolerance for frequency deviation in that room, so just how do you know there isn't any need for electronic assistance to correct any acoustical abnormalities?

The answer is really quite simple. Rives Audio found zero need to equalize their own "level 3" room design. Your commentary about screwing up the midrange is hilarious.

BTW, you'll find Mike's room on the Rives website with significant commentary about the room and system.

rw

[Sir Terrence the Terrible]

The answer is really quite simple. Rives Audio found zero need to equalize their own "level 3" room design. Your commentary about screwing up the midrange is hilarious.

Yes, I also found your belittling of a person who has done FAR more research than you have equally as amusing.

BTW, you'll find Mike's room on the Rives website with significant commentary about the room and system.

rw

Yes I read it. Noticed some very important issues as well that could have been tamed with with a simple parametric EQ;

In my case I have about a 5dB to 6dB peak at 134Hz, and a 5dB to 6dB null at 80Hz. followed by this;

From time to time I do perceive a slight wooliness to the mid-bass... but only occasionally (a very few cuts of female vocal, or maybe a cello recording).

A 5-6db peak is VERY audible, and he does not define how broad the null extends upward of 80hz or downward as well. That "wooliness" is most likely a result of the peak at 134hz of which again he does not tell how broad its effect is. I want to see the measurements, because his description of the issue does not tell me much of anything. Measurements along with the commentary would be more helpful than just mere words. With a peak still present in the room, that notion of ZERO need to EQ is quite suspect.

[E-Stat]

Yes, I also found your belittling of a person who has done FAR more research than you have equally as amusing.

Nousaine? He's an audio gourmand. Here are some of his "urban legends" as found on Peter Wackzel's website:

Fancy parts improve sound.
Fancy cables improve sound quality
LP sounds better than CD (I would aver in some areas only)
Negative feedback is bad

And by the way, several of his articles consistently reference 80 hz as the threshold for audible localization. That's what THX chose as well. Do you think they might know something? My favorite article had the gripping title "Autosound vs Home Audio". Can you hear the difference? :^)

Noticed some very important issues as well that could have been tamed with with a simple parametric EQ;

I have about a 5dB to 6dB peak at 134Hz...

Tame something at 134 hz via equalization. Hmmm. My issue near 160 hz is but a fourth of an octave away. You know, I might just try using some EQ to fix that. Wait - I already do!

rw

[Sir Terrence the Terrible]

Nousaine? He's an audio gourmand. Here are some of his "urban legends" as found on Peter Wackzel's website:

Fancy parts improve sound.
Fancy cables improve sound quality
LP sounds better than CD (I would aver in some areas only)
Negative feedback is bad

Can't comment on that, but his technical knowledge of bass in small rooms is widely accepted as fact.

And by the way, several of his articles consistently reference 80 hz as the threshold for audible localization.

I have quite a few of his AES submissions, and not one supports 80hz as the threshold. Above 100hz is consistently listed as the absolute threshold for audible detection, and when you speak of two loudspeakers sans a subwoofer, the level goes up to 120hz. Now in a anechoic chamber, 80hz might be the threshold, but not in small rooms loaded with reflections. This is support by the white papers of Dr. F. Toole as well.

That's what THX chose as well.

That is because that is the frequency that works best between their approved mains and subwoofers, and because it is below the area of localization. Now this one I can argue you to the floor because Dr. Holman was my professor at USC when I attended film school there.

Do you think they might know something?

Sure. They know to create a crossover point that will ensure that you cannot localize a subwoofer. If they designed it right at the level of detection, the roll off would have to be steeper than 24db per octave.

My favorite article had the gripping title "Autosound vs Home Audio". Can you hear the difference? :^)

Never read it

Tame something at 134 hz via equalization. Hmmm. My issue near 160 hz is but a fourth of an octave away. You know, I might just try using some EQ to fix that. Wait - I already do!

rw

The big difference between this and your situation is that he has no subwoofer, and you do. He has a peak, you have a suckout. He didn't have a choice of a crossover point, you do. I don't think your choice is particularly wise, but it is your choice. This is a bad example to use to support your decision.

[E-Stat]

I have quite a few of his AES submissions, and not one supports 80hz as the threshold.

Maybe he's also an amnesiac because that's the threshold he specifes in two documents found on his website found here. Refer to "Stereo Bass" and "Subwoofers - How Big is Enough". While you're there, you can find some more jollies by reading "Why We Need to take Car Stereo Serious (sic)". You really shouldn't miss any of his gripping tales. I tell you, he's all over the state of the art!

I nearly fell out of my chair when I read his used "hearing protection" during some high level testing. Now we know why he can't hear squat.

rw

[Sir Terrence the Terrible]

Maybe he's also an amnesiac because that's the threshold he specifes in two documents found on his website found here. Refer to "Stereo Bass" and "Subwoofers - How Big is Enough". While you're there, you can find some more jollies by reading "Why We Need to take Car Stereo Serious (sic)". You really shouldn't miss any of his gripping tales. I tell you, he's all over the state of the art!

rw

Already read it.

However I could hear no detectable difference between stereo and mono using 80hz crossover slopes.

At crossover ABOVE 100hz the differences between stereo and mono tended to be localizable in nature.

He never states in that article that 80hz is the threshold, he just states there is no detectable difference between mono and stereo at that frequency. He states at crossover frequencies ABOVE 100hz ( he didn't say 100hz, but ABOVE 100hz) localization is detectable. So his comments are absolutely consistent with what I have been stating and what he states in his white papers. His white papers go into much more detail than this example.

[Ajani]

My favorite article had the gripping title "Autosound vs Home Audio". Can you hear the difference? :^)

Thanks for the link, I just read that article....

I truly love how he "assembled four source units that represent the state of the art in component design" for his test:

Sony CDX-A2001 Car CD Changer $1,800
Denon DCD-3520 Home CD Player $1,500
Nakamichi TD-1200II Car Cassette Tuner $1,595
Nakamichi Dragon Home Cassette Deck $2,295

Now, I don't know much about what was "State of the Art" in 1990 (when the test was conducted), but since the most expensive component in the test cost $2,295 in 1990... which is roughly equal to $3,826 in 2009, I really have to wonder if those products were indeed "State of the Art"...

[E-Stat]

Already read it.

Very selectively at that. Apparently, you didn't read his conclusion. Let's review it, shall we?

"In sum, music listeners were unable to identify differences in monophonic and stereophonic reproduction at frequencies below 80 hz, even using...

However I could hear no detectable difference between stereo and mono using 80hz crossover slopes.

Maybe he needs to remove the hearing protection.

I'm sure we could go on all night my friend. Neither of us has worry much about localization since I have two and you have four. I'll leave you with one more thought. What do find in common with these four high performance speaker systems ? (the first three of which I've heard at length in a home setting using incredible gear) You only get one guess.

Infinity IRS



Nola Grand Reference



Scaena 1.4



Evolution Acoustics MM7



What could that common denominator be for these leading edge systems?

rw

[Ajani]

I forgot to mention his conclusion, that a carefully assembled "car stereo system can sound as good as the best home stereo"...

He comes to this conclusion, despite not testing Car speakers versus Home Speakers (he tested source components in that article and amplifiers in a previous one)... And not testing the "room" acoustics of a car...

[Ajani]

What do find in common with these four high performance speaker systems ? (the first three of which I've heard at length in a home setting using incredible gear) You only get one guess.
..........

What could that common denominator be for these leading edge systems?

rw

They're all very expensive?


See AA, I used bold instead of caps... better???

[audio amateur]

I've heard some Nolas, but not the flagship Sounded very good IMO...
Those are quite some speakers you got to hear EStat, which would you say you prefered out of the bunch?

[Sir Terrence the Terrible]

Very selectively at that. Apparently, you didn't read his conclusion. Let's review it, shall we?

"In sum, music listeners were unable to identify differences in monophonic and stereophonic reproduction at frequencies below 80 hz, even using...

I read his conclusion, and it does not change or alter one bit what he previously said which I put in bold from his text. I am not sure how you think it does. It is your assumption that it was read selectively, as I have read and cited this article many times. Never make assumptions.

However I could hear no detectable difference between stereo and mono using 80hz crossover slopes.

At crossovers ABOVE 100hz the differences between stereo and mono tended to be localizable in nature.

This comment is perfectly consistent with what I have stated, and what you highlighted does not alter that consistency. You cannot detect stereo below 80hz, and you can at frequencies above 100hz. He does not state the threshold of detection in this article, but he sure does in his white papers he submitted to AES. That detection frequency would be 120hz for non subwoofer applications (two full range speakers), and 100hz with application that deploy subwoofers. Since you commented that Pix was talking about a non subwoofer application, then your contention that the threshold is 80hz is just plain wrong.

Maybe he needs to remove the hearing protection.

He stated he used hearing protection for high level testing which is wise. He didn't say he wore hearing protection for every test, so implicating that with this comment is disingenuous.

I'm sure we could go on all night my friend. Neither of us has worry much about localization since I have two and you have four. I'll leave you with one more thought. What do find in common with these four high performance speaker systems ? (the first three of which I've heard at length in a home setting using incredible gear) You only get one guess.

Infinity IRS



Nola Grand Reference



Scaena 1.4



Evolution Acoustics MM7



What could that common denominator be for these leading edge systems?

rw

All these speaker system have separate subwoofer modules to augment the output of the main speakers.

[E-Stat]

They're all very expensive?

Hint: in context with this discussion.

rw

[Ajani]

Hint: in context with this discussion.

rw

LOL... I know...

[audio amateur]

They're all very expensive?


See AA, I used bold instead of caps... better???

Lol, actually I wasn't refering to the fact that you capitalized a full word, but that you very often use capitals at the beginning of words that don't need one. As an example, I'm quoting you from another thread:

I regard the search for physical impact, to be moving past accurately reproducing music and towards recreating a Live 3D experience.... So just as I don't attempt to recreate the smell of Cigarettes, Weed and Sweat from a local club, I don't care about recreating the sense of touch (the aforementioned kick)...

Cigarettes, weed and sweat don't need a capital letter

[E-Stat]

I read his conclusion, and it does not change or alter one bit what he previously said which I put in bold from his text. I am not sure how you think it does.

Only the difference between other listeners can hear and that which he is capable of. Maybe its time to change the Dynaco PAT-5.

He stated he used hearing protection for high level testing which is wise. He didn't say he wore hearing protection for every test, so implicating that with this comment is disingenuous.

I can't think of anything much funnier than an audio "reviewer" who needs to wear hearing protection during a listening test. That's hilarious! "What did you say? Huh? CAN YOU LOCALIZE THE SIGNAL? I SAID, CAN YOU LOCALIZE THE SIGNAL? "

All these speaker system have separate subwoofer modules to augment the output of the main speakers.

You're getting warm. The towers of each are good down to about 40 hz.

rw

[Ajani]

Lol, actually I wasn't refering to the fact that you capitalized a full word, but that you very often use capitals at the beginning of words that don't need one. As an example, I'm quoting you from another thread:

Cigarettes, weed and sweat don't need a capital letter

But I Like Capitals!!!! Just Cuz the Words don'T neEd them, Doesn't meant I shouldn't add THem...