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  1. #51
    M.P.S.E /AES/SMPTE member Sir Terrence the Terrible's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by E-Stat
    Only the difference between other listeners can hear and that which he is capable of. Maybe its time to change the Dynaco PAT-5.
    This is a stupid comment. Come on E-stat, you are better than this. In his white paper he didn't participate, and the conclusions were exactly the same.


    I can't think of anything much funnier than an audio "reviewer" who needs to wear hearing protection.
    I cannot think of anything more stupid than doing high level tests without them



    You're getting warm.
    I guess I am not interested enough to give a second guess.

    rw[/QUOTE]
    Sir Terrence

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  2. #52
    Forum Regular audio amateur's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Ajani
    But I Like Capitals!!!! Just Cuz the Words don'T neEd them, Doesn't meant I shouldn't add THem...
    At the Beginning I said!!!!

  3. #53
    Music Junkie E-Stat's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Sir Terrence the Terrible
    This is a stupid comment. Come on E-stat, you are better than this. In his white paper he didn't participate, and the conclusions were exactly the same.
    "The Conclusion" was NOT exactly the same. Hint: that's the part that follows "in sum". It was very different. Have you forgotten already?

    Quote Originally Posted by Sir Terrence the Terrible
    I cannot think of anything more stupid than doing high level tests without them
    I can't think of anything more stupid than conducting listening tests that require earplugs! That is just too funny!

    Quote Originally Posted by Sir Terrence the Terrible
    I guess I am not interested enough to give a second guess.
    I'll help you out with the complex answer: They're all in stereo.

    rw

  4. #54
    Forum Regular audio amateur's Avatar
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    Don't be embarrassed to say it Terrence, we won't mock you

  5. #55
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    Oups... too late.

  6. #56
    M.P.S.E /AES/SMPTE member Sir Terrence the Terrible's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by E-Stat
    "The Conclusion" was not exactly the same. It was very different. Have you forgotten already?
    Please enlighten me because it was not very different at all.


    I can't think of anything more stupid than conducting listening tests that require earplugs! That is just too funny!
    When you are relying on test equipment and not your ears, it is best that they are protected don't your think?


    I'll help you out with the complex answer: They're all in stereo.

    rw
    The are deployed as stereo, they are not inherently stereo speakers. 5 sets would be multichannel. Who says you only need two mains and two subs? I am not into systems that have built in limitations.
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  7. #57
    Music Junkie E-Stat's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Sir Terrence the Terrible
    Please enlighten me because it was not very different at all.
    Not very different at all. Hmmm. Well, I'll have to agree that in the grand scheme of things, half an octave isn't all that great. So, let's review what our deaf "reviewer" has said:

    "However I could hear no detectable difference between stereo and mono using 80hz crossover slopes...

    In sum, music listeners were unable to identify differences in monophonic and stereophonic reproduction at frequencies below 80 hz, even using..."


    Here's another Where's Waldo question. What is the difference between the subjects of the two sentences? Well, the subject of the first was "I". That would be Mr. Earplugs. The subject of the CONCLUSION was "music listeners". As for me, I would be more concerned what "music listeners" can hear as opposed to what Mr. Earplugs is capable of discerning. Also, note the difference between "using" in the first case and "below" in the second. The language is quite clear .

    Quote Originally Posted by Sir Terrence the Terrible
    When you are relying on test equipment and not your ears, it is best that they are protected don't your think?
    Why would you ever choose to listen to music at levels that required the use of earplugs? Like totally wow man, that sub was rocking at 126 db. Kewl. How does one take a guy like that seriously to ascertain anything resembling critical listening? Certainly not I.

    Quote Originally Posted by Sir Terrence the Terrible
    The are deployed as stereo, they are not inherently stereo speakers.
    At the expense of confusing the issue with facts, the cabling to and amplification required for each subwoofer is discrete and adheres to every aspect of the word "stereo". As for me, I'll trust guys like Arnie Nudell and Carl Marchisotto - not to mention my own ears - over *reviewers* who need to wear earplugs.

    rw
    Last edited by E-Stat; 12-16-2009 at 05:54 PM.

  8. #58
    M.P.S.E /AES/SMPTE member Sir Terrence the Terrible's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by E-Stat
    Not very different at all. Hmmm. Well, I'll have to agree that in the grand scheme of things, half an octave isn't all that great. So, let's review what our deaf "reviewer" has said:

    "However I could hear no detectable difference between stereo and mono using 80hz crossover slopes...

    In sum, music listeners were unable to identify differences in monophonic and stereophonic reproduction at frequencies below 80 hz, even using..."


    Here's another Where's Waldo question. What is the difference between the subjects of the two sentences? Well, the subject of the first was "I". That would be Mr. Earplugs. The subject of the CONCLUSION was "music listeners". As for me, I would be more concerned what "music listeners" can hear as opposed to what Mr. Earplugs is capable of discerning.
    Wow, this is a stretch. You have a negative personal opinion of him, but that is your problem and issue. He essentially said the same thing two different ways, so I don't agree with your assertion that the conclusion were very different. Neither could detect stereo below 80hz [b]period[.b] Your choice of whether to personally like or dislike his conclusion are irrelevant to the conclusion nevertheless. I think it is pretty damn weak to base your conclusions on what music listeners hear, as they have no superhuman powers of hearing that nobody else posses. A music listener is just a music listener, not super ears.


    Why would you ever choose to listen to music at levels that required the use of earplugs? Like totally wow man, that sub was rocking at 126 db. Kewl. How does one take a guy like that seriously to ascertain anything resembling critical listening? Certainly not I.
    They would if they were testing ultimate loudness capabilities, and this should not be all that difficult to figure out. Listening to ultimate loudness capabilities is not a critical listening activity, and it should not be judged that way. Keep in mind, your way of doing a test is not the only way a test can be done. Maybe you are not into ultimate loudness tests, but some folks what to know how loud a speaker can play as to judge its ability to hang together during loud peaks. Everyone does not listen to music like you do, or at the levels that you do.


    At the expense of confusing the issue with facts, the cabling to and amplification required for each subwoofer is discrete and adheres to every aspect of the word "stereo". As for me, I'll trust guys like Arnie Nudell and Carl Marchisotto - not to mention my own ears - over *reviewers* who need to wear earplugs.

    rw
    This comment is BS and you know it is. The cabling and amplification is not limited to stereo, it can be expanded to accommodate more channels than just two. So are you telling me the only application these speakers can be used in is a stereo application? That is just plain foolishness. I own 7 Dunlavy SC-V and 5 Dunlavy TSW-V tower subwoofers I use for music mixing. How are these speakers any different than those?
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  9. #59
    Music Junkie E-Stat's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Sir Terrence the Terrible
    Neither could detect stereo below 80hz [b]period[.b]
    What part of "below" don't you understand? Hint: 100 hz is NOT below 80 hz.

    Quote Originally Posted by Sir Terrence the Terrible
    but some folks what to know how loud a speaker can play as to judge its ability to hang together during loud peaks.
    Like I said, he is an audio gourmand.

    Quote Originally Posted by Sir Terrence the Terrible
    This comment is BS and you know it is. The cabling and amplification is not limited to stereo, it can be expanded to accommodate more channels than just two. So are you telling me the only application these speakers can be used in is a stereo application?
    Sorry, I find no need to veer into your pet enthusiasm for MC. Let's stay on topic here, shall we? What do you mean by this statement: "they are not inherently stereo speakers."? Let's see here. There are two separate subwoofer towers in each design included with the system. That would be one for each main tower. Can you buy multiples of the speaker system? Why not? With five channels, you would have - five subwoofer towers, not one! What does that have to do with your assertion about "bass not being stereo?". They are driven independently using separate cabling and amplification. There is no summing of the signal at any level. WTF?

    rw

  10. #60
    M.P.S.E /AES/SMPTE member Sir Terrence the Terrible's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by E-Stat
    What part of "below" don't you understand? Hint: 100 hz is NOT below 80 hz.
    More BS and hair splitting. This does not mean that they COULD detect stereo information above 80hz and below 100hz does it? Why state this;

    At crossovers ABOVE 100hz the differences between stereo and mono tended to be localizable in nature.
    If 80hz was the detection threshold, then why state above 100hz? Why not state above 80hz? Even then it was describe as spaciousness and not directional. That is because you have a very weak understanding of stereo localization principles. Localization does not just jump out once you get above 80hz, It is a gradual process as the frequency increases. We detect the direction of frequencies based on time( for LF) and intensity (for HF) inter-aurally. Since bass frequency wavelengths are long at 80hz (14ft), it is wider than our heads, so it bends around our heads and hits both ears simultaneously which prevents any directional detection. You can move the source to close to your left ear, and both ears would still hear the same amplitude because once again there is no time or perceived level difference, and our ears lack sensitivity at this frequency. You can increase the intensity on one side of the head, but still because the wavelength is longer than the distance between your ears, you will still not be able to localize. At 160hz the wavelength is 7ft. Localization improves slightly because now the wavelength gets a bit closer to the size of the head which allows one ear to hear slightly more than the other. At 320hz is is 3.5ft, and at 640hz it is 1.5ft, and at the most sensitive point of our hearing 1-4kHz 12" to 3". Once the wavelengths get smaller ( especially smaller than our heads), intensity becomes the vehicle that determines direction. This is if you only use one source for localization. When you use two sources, and surround them with walls, the signals become more complex and more difficult to localize because of reflections, and the size of the wavelengths combined. This is why he stated that ABOVE 100hz signals begin to more clearly localize. The difference in wavelength size of 80hz and 100hz is 3ft which is wider than our heads, and provides minimal improvement in localization theoretically but not perceptionally due to hearing insensitivities at these frequencies (see Fletcher/Munson loudness curve). The difference between 80 and 160hz is 7ft, and that is a much better improvement in localization capability, but still not as clear as one octave up. And so on and so on.


    Like I said, he is an audio gourmand.
    Your opinion. I suppose he was a audio gourmand when he did this stereo study? I think your opinion of him is akin to doing a fine painting with a street sweeper. Some of his tests may involve excessive volumes, but not all of them.


    Sorry, I find no need to veer into your pet enthusiasm for MC. Let's stay on topic here, shall we? What do you mean by this statement: "they are not inherently stereo speakers."? Let's see here. There are two separate subwoofer towers in each design included with the system. That would be one for each main tower. Can you buy multiples of the speaker system? Why not? With five channels, you would have - five subwoofer towers, not one! What does that have to do with your assertion about "bass not being stereo?". They are driven independently using separate cabling and amplification. There is no summing of the signal at any level. WTF?

    rw
    Oui!! My Dunlavy system does not include a summing circuit either, it does not even use bass management. The two rear wall speakers handle their own bass. Each of the 7 speakers and 5 subwoofers are driven independently using separate cabling and amplification as well. So what! This does not improve localization at lower frequencies, it makes it more difficult to do so. In Nousiane's test he used no summing circuits either. So what is your point?

    Based on his tests, whether you sum the bass or not, localization is not improved, and neither is the perception of spaciousness. Your point is a red herring at best.

    His conclusion is very simple. Stereo is a higher frequency phenomena associated with locating sound.
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  11. #61
    Music Junkie E-Stat's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Sir Terrence the Terrible
    More BS and hair splitting. This does not mean that they COULD detect stereo information above 80hz and below 100hz does it? Why state this;
    Obviously, your *expert* is anything but articulate or discerning. He's clueless and his comments remain inconsistent. What is not inconsistent, however, is the absolute dearth of any high performance speaker that uses a single woofer tower. Zilch. It's for low end system for folks that cannot afford two.

    For the life of me, I don't understand your apparent need to raise the banner of mediocrity.

    rw

  12. #62
    M.P.S.E /AES/SMPTE member Sir Terrence the Terrible's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by E-Stat
    Obviously, your *expert* is anything but articulate or discerning. He's clueless and his comments remain inconsistent. What is not inconsistent, however, is the absolute dearth of any high performance speaker that uses a single woofer tower. Zilch. It's for low end system for folks that cannot afford two.
    E-stat, I really thought you were smarter than this. The only thing that using two woofer towers do is add headroom to a system. If you don't need the headroom (and some don't) there is no need for two towers of subwoofer. And your comments smack of elitism, and has nothing to do with high performance at all. Widescreen reviews old reference system only had two Dunlavy towers with six SC-V. One could not call that system a low end system and still have any credibility.

    For the life of me, I don't understand your apparent need to raise the banner of mediocrity.

    rw
    Perhaps I am raising the banner of unscientific elitism, and not mediocrity at all. The high end that you so closely align yourself with is full of BS claims and unscientific practices, and somebody needs to cut through all that crap with a dose of reality. Each speaker is not required to have its own dedicated subwoofer to be considered a high performance speaker. A Dunlavy SC-V without a subwoofer by anyone's measure is a high performance speaker. I think many folks would consider my own custom speakers as high performance speakers without a sub. A ATC SCM-300A would be considered a high performance speaker without a sub. That would go for a TAD Reference One, All of Egglestons models, and many more. One approach to high performance is not better than another, and a person would have to be living in an alternate reality to believe any different.

    Now I am going to exit to watch a movie on my low end mediocre system, so we can take this up tomorrow if you like.
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  13. #63
    Forum Regular audio amateur's Avatar
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    I very much doubt the bass modules (sorry to coin a term used for Bose in such a context) in those - I think we can call them - state of the art speakers need any more headroom than what a single is capable of... Clearly they are meant for perfect seperation of bass between the two channels, and help to achieve an easier flat in-room frequency response. I guess you could argue that on top of this, two can achieve more headroom; however, that is not the main argument.

  14. #64
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    Quote Originally Posted by Sir Terrence the Terrible
    I own 7 Dunlavy SC-V and 5 Dunlavy TSW-V tower subwoofers I use for music mixing.
    Those are massive!

  15. #65
    Music Junkie E-Stat's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Sir Terrence the Terrible
    E-stat, I really thought you were smarter than this. The only thing that using two woofer towers do is add headroom to a system.
    I'm delighted that you've given up on Mr. Car Stereo and now acknowledge there are ZERO high performance speakers using a single sub.

    Quote Originally Posted by Sir Terrence the Terrible
    And your comments smack of elitism, and has nothing to do with high performance at all.
    Just pointing out the obvious to one who has difficulty understanding words like "under".

    Quote Originally Posted by Sir Terrence the Terrible
    Perhaps I am raising the banner of unscientific elitism, and not mediocrity at all. The high end that you so closely align yourself with is full of BS claims and unscientific practices, and somebody needs to cut through all that crap with a dose of reality.
    When all else fails, use the straw man fallacy.

    rw

  16. #66
    Man of the People Forums Moderator bobsticks's Avatar
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    Yee haw!!....love them Pioneer receivers...
    So, I broke into the palace
    With a sponge and a rusty spanner
    She said : "Eh, I know you, and you cannot sing"
    I said : "That's nothing - you should hear me play piano"

  17. #67
    Ajani
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    Quote Originally Posted by bobsticks
    Yee haw!!....love them Pioneer receivers...
    What U talkin' bout Sticks??? This thread is about using dual subs!!! It has NOTHING to do with receivers/amplificati... ohhhh... riiiiight.... never mind...

  18. #68
    Music Junkie E-Stat's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by audio amateur
    I very much doubt the bass modules (sorry to coin a term used for Bose in such a context) in those - I think we can call them - state of the art speakers need any more headroom than what a single is capable of... Clearly they are meant for perfect seperation of bass between the two channels, and help to achieve an easier flat in-room frequency response. I guess you could argue that on top of this, two can achieve more headroom; however, that is not the main argument.
    That's not fair using logic!

    rw

  19. #69
    M.P.S.E /AES/SMPTE member Sir Terrence the Terrible's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by E-Stat
    I'm delighted that you've given up on Mr. Car Stereo and now acknowledge there are ZERO high performance speakers using a single sub.
    That is not what I said, and please do not put words in my mouth.


    Just pointing out the obvious to one who has difficulty understanding words like "under".
    You know good and damn well I know what under means, but you're trying twist his comments to say something else, and that is BS. His under comment does not mean that once one gets to 80hz then poof, here comes the stereo imaging and localization. It does not work like that.


    When all else fails, use the straw man fallacy.

    rw
    Yeah, and for you when all else fails you result to elitist BS.
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  20. #70
    M.P.S.E /AES/SMPTE member Sir Terrence the Terrible's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by audio amateur
    I very much doubt the bass modules (sorry to coin a term used for Bose in such a context) in those - I think we can call them - state of the art speakers need any more headroom than what a single is capable of... Clearly they are meant for perfect seperation of bass between the two channels, and help to achieve an easier flat in-room frequency response. I guess you could argue that on top of this, two can achieve more headroom; however, that is not the main argument.
    Two points. Using a mono amp and discrete pathways in your pre-amp will do just fine in separating the bass between two channels, you don't need two big boxes in the room to do this.

    Secondly, I single sub in a corner with EQ can acheive a flat in room response.

    The only real reason to use two subwoofers is to increase the headroom of the system. If you don't need the headroom, then you can ditch the two big boxes. I have not seen any research that supports the notion that summing bass results in a degrade in performance as bass frequencies. There is no distinct advantage is keeping the bass separate between two channels, at those frequencies there is no audible difference.
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  21. #71
    Class of the clown GMichael's Avatar
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    In essence, I'm running 3 subs. There is the main sub that I use for most bass below 60 htz. My two front speakers have powered subs built in. These handle from about 30 htz up to around 160. I have them set this way because it helps me with a null in my room at around 140. And since they are set up in stereo I am not concerned with being able to locate where their bass is coming from.

    Pix,

    Nice acquisition. When do we get a full review?
    WARNING! - The Surgeon General has determined that, time spent listening to music is not deducted from one's lifespan.

  22. #72
    Music Junkie E-Stat's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Sir Terrence the Terrible
    That is not what I said, and please do not put words in my mouth.
    We're still waiting for you to provide a single example of a high performance system that uses a single sub. In every example you've provided, there have been between four and five! Best of luck to you!

    Quote Originally Posted by Sir Terrence the Terrible
    His under comment does not mean that once one gets to 80hz then poof, here comes the stereo imaging and localization. It does not work like that.
    Intelligent people make such statements using clearly identified points of reference. Perhaps Mr. Car Stereo is simply an idiot who doesn't understand the language. Recall that he is your expert in the field.

    Quote Originally Posted by Sir Terrence the Terrible
    Yeah, and for you when all else fails you result to elitist BS.
    Why is observing the highest level of performance "elitist"? Apparently, it must all be about ownership to you. As a car enthusiast, I love nothing more than to watch and hear F1 cars outperform every other kind of race car in every aspect. Will I ever own one? Are you kidding? Will I ever own the kinds of systems I've heard with my reviewer friends? Same answer. What bearing does recognizing and appreciating the highest level of audio art have to do with elitism? It is what it is. And I have been very fortunate to have a long term source for continuing to experience what is possible.

    rw

  23. #73
    Forum Regular audio amateur's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by GMicheal
    In essence, I'm running 3 subs. There is the main sub that I use for most bass below 60 htz. My two front speakers have powered subs built in. These handle from about 30 htz up to around 160. I have them set this way because it helps me with a null in my room at around 140. And since they are set up in stereo I am not concerned with being able to locate where their bass is coming from.
    Are you using any EQ on the sub GM? Having the sub set at 60, wouldn't you have exaggerated response between 30 and 60Hz, given that your mains reach 30Hz?

  24. #74
    Class of the clown GMichael's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by audio amateur
    Are you using any EQ on the sub GM? Having the sub set at 60, wouldn't you have exaggerated response between 30 and 60Hz, given that your mains reach 30Hz?
    No BFD, although it's on my wish list. Each one has a parametric eq built in, but can only be used at one frequency. All also have level controls, which is normal I guess. After playing around with a Rives test CD, a Rat Shack meter and all the settings for a weekend, these were the settings that gave me the flattest response.

    The main sub is set to knock off 3 db at 45 htz with a slow roll-off (or is that roll-up here) on either side of the 45.
    The two built in subs knock off 4 db at 100 htz with a semi-sharp roll-off/up.

    This is pretty flat from 25 to 130. I still have a drop off below 25 and about 2 db drop off between 130 and 160.
    WARNING! - The Surgeon General has determined that, time spent listening to music is not deducted from one's lifespan.

  25. #75
    M.P.S.E /AES/SMPTE member Sir Terrence the Terrible's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by E-Stat
    We're still waiting for you to provide a single example of a high performance system that uses a single sub. In every example you've provided, there have been between four and five! Best of luck to you!
    I do not need to find any example of a high performance system that uses a single sub, I can put together my own. How about a system built around 5 Thiel CS-3.7 mated with a single SS4 sub. That is a high performance system. My point is that I do not have to be boxed in by your examples, I can put together my own system easily.




    Intelligent people make such statements using clearly identified points of reference. Perhaps Mr. Car Stereo is simply an idiot who doesn't understand the language. Recall that he is your expert in the field.
    Unfortunately Mr. Car Stereo's research agrees with Mr Floyd Toole's research on the same subject. So whatever issues you have with him, that is your business, but it does not take away from the fact he is right on this issue.


    Why is observing the highest level of performance "elitist"? Apparently, it must all be about ownership to you. As a car enthusiast, I love nothing more than to watch and hear F1 cars outperform every other kind of race car in every aspect. Will I ever own one? Are you kidding? Will I ever own the kinds of systems I've heard with my reviewer friends? Same answer. What bearing does recognizing and appreciating the highest level of audio art have to do with elitism? It is what it is. And I have been very fortunate to have a long term source for continuing to experience what is possible.

    rw
    I don't think the observing the highest level of performance is an issue. What I take issue with is alot of what YOU call high performance is not really necessary to get high performance. There is no need to separate the bass from each channel when they are going to be combined within the room anyway. In a room, there is no such thing as discrete bass. So the whole concept you put forth about why these systems have two seperate bass cabinets is flawed from the get go. The elitism comes from saying that a system with a single sub is flawed because it has only one sub. That is pure BS. Both Mr. Car Stereo and Dr. Toole's research has shown that the advantage two subs bring to the table is a smoother response over a front row of seats, and to provide headroom within the system. However, your Rives audio example has a single seat, and that is the way most "audiophiles" listen to music, is from one point in the room. If you are only going to listen from the sweet spot, two subs are not necessary, only one is.

    When I say that the high end has a lot of BS science attached to it, this is one example of it. We could jump into the $4000 dollar a piece interconnects, $500 a foot speaker cable, and the various other over priced accessories that "audiophiles" think are necessary, but that is not the topic of this thread.

    I have absolutely no problem with high end equipment as long as the high end is turned into real performance, and not just a bunch of over priced fluff. A system with two huge speakers, and two huge subwoofers put together in the name of keeping bass frequencies discrete is a waste of money, because once that bass enters the room, it is no longer discrete. I can understand separating the bass from the mains as an argument, but keeping the bass discrete between two channels? Nope, can't do it, it makes no acoustical sense for one seat in a room. Three seats, yes, but not one seat.
    Sir Terrence

    Titan Reference 3D 1080p projector
    200" SI Black Diamond II screen
    Oppo BDP-103D
    Datastat RS20I audio/video processor 12.4 audio setup
    9 Onkyo M-5099 power amp
    9 Onkyo M-510 power amp
    9 Onkyo M-508 power amp
    6 custom CAL amps for subs
    3 custom 3 way horn DSP hybrid monitors
    18 custom 3 way horn DSP hybrid surround/ceiling speakers
    2 custom 15" sealed FFEC servo subs
    4 custom 15" H-PAS FFEC servo subs
    THX Style Baffle wall

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