emaidel was right about the Hi-Fi Tuning fuses

[Feanor]

Think about that conclusion for a moment. Apply what you know about the way the speaker market has been for the past thirty years or so and ask yourself whether or not the market supports or refutes that assertion. Can you think of any other audio component where there is greater variety in the way they perform? Does the guy who prefers an Altec A-7 or Klipsch Cornwall look for the same qualities as one who prefers a Magico Mini or a Maggie? What do you think?


Using typical short term audio cowboy comparisons, yes. ESS speakers were clearly in the "West Coast" sound category and not known for their neutrality.

rw

Well, ESS' testing is more suspect than Toole's maybe, on account of likely "audio cowboy" aspect. (I remember thinking for a while that JBLs' West Coast sound as were great, however that interval lasted only a few weeks for me.)

What I'm really getting at is that you can't just dismiss scientifically sound, empiracal results on subjective bases. You have to find a flaw in the design or in the actual measurement. Then you have to prove that you get different results if these flaws are corrected.

Toole's results are empirical and scientifically sound. If you want to refute them, you need to demonstate that what Toole tests measure things less that the sum of everything important in a speaker. OK, perhaps you can do that.

Toole's testing basically relied on monopolar speakers that worked OK at a certain distance from surrounding boundaries, etc. that applied during the testing. I believe it was you that pointed out that this precludes dipole planar speakers for example, or say, Audio Notes that have unusual placement requirements. Fine, but then you have to conduct tests that disprove his conclusions when dipole speakers are provided for.

Of course it's true for any DBT, (or SBT), that the results are only valid under the test conditions that prevail.

[E-Stat]

Toole's results are empirical and scientifically sound. If you want to refute them, you need to demonstate that what Toole tests measure things less that the sum of everything important in a speaker.

Let me see if I understand your point. Do you really need a carefully controlled empirical test to determine that an Altec A-7 sounds significantly different from a Revel Salon? Or do you really think that what someone really likes about a theatre horn system is exactly the same quality that someone else really likes about a tower based monitor? C'mon!

Tests prove what they prove on that which was tested by who was tested. Based on his collection of "monkey coffin" monopole dynamic speakers, perhaps the criteria is similar. On the other hand, his tests haven't begun to compare the vastly different kinds of speakers on the market including horns and various planars that have different characteristics and performance trade offs Even within Toole's (former) Harman International group, Revel speakers are voiced differently than are JBLs.

vs.

I don't buy that conclusion for a second when applied to the market in general. Otherwise, there would be no Magnepan. There would be no Quad. There would be no Klipsch. There would be no Avant Garde. And so on and so on.

rw

[Feanor]

Let me see if I understand your point. Do you really need a carefully controlled empirical test to determine that an Altec A-7 sounds significantly different from a Revel Salon? Or do you really think that what someone really likes about a theatre horn system is exactly the same quality that someone else really likes about a tower based monitor? C'mon! ...

No, but I didn't exactly inply that. Toole was talking about test group averages, not particular individual preferences.

...
Tests prove what they prove on that which was tested by who was tested. Based on his collection of "monkey coffin" monopole dynamic speakers, perhaps the criteria is similar. On the other hand, his tests haven't begun to compare the vastly different kinds of speakers on the market including horns and various planars that have different characteristics and performance trade offs Even within Toole's (former) Harman International group, Revel speakers are voiced differently than are JBLs.

[Revel] vs. [JBL horn]

Revel is designed according to Toole criteria, the JBL horn is not. For that matter the latter's basic was design happened long before Toole came to Harmon International.

...
I don't buy that conclusion for a second when applied to the market in general. Otherwise, there would be no Magnepan. There would be no Quad. There would be no Klipsch. There would be no Avant Garde. And so on and so on.

rw

Fair enough. After all you're talking to a Maggie owner in my case, not a "monkey coffin" owner.