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  1. #1
    Music Junkie E-Stat's Avatar
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    emaidel was right about the Hi-Fi Tuning fuses

    Picked up a pair for my Sound Lab stats. I had bypassed the fuses altogether with previous Acoustats and picked up some resolution although I'm hesitant to do that with these. Sure enough, the improvement in added resolution is similar. I also purchased one for the AC line fuse in the GamuT CD-1. So far, I've only listened to vinyl so I cannot speak for that one yet.

    Thanks, emaidel!

    rw

  2. #2
    3db
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    Quote Originally Posted by E-Stat
    Picked up a pair for my Sound Lab stats. I had bypassed the fuses altogether with previous Acoustats and picked up some resolution although I'm hesitant to do that with these. Sure enough, the improvement in added resolution is similar. I also purchased one for the AC line fuse in the GamuT CD-1. So far, I've only listened to vinyl so I cannot speak for that one yet.

    Thanks, emaidel!

    rw
    Placebo effect perhaps?

  3. #3
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    Quote Originally Posted by E-Stat

    Thanks, emaidel!
    Wow! The first thing I saw when logging onto AR this morning was my own name!

    You're certainly welcome. Nothing I"ve ever done to my system, for so little money, made as much difference as the Hi-Fi Tuning fuses, especially the five that are in my amp. Enjoy!

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    Quote Originally Posted by 3db
    Placebo effect perhaps?
    Hardly.

  5. #5
    Music Junkie E-Stat's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by 3db
    Placebo effect perhaps?
    Why do you say that? Have you ever bypassed a fuse before?

    rw

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    Quote Originally Posted by 3db
    Placebo effect perhaps?
    Cyrogenically-treated, gold-plated, placebo effect??? You must get the terminology correct.

  7. #7
    Super Moderator Site Moderator JohnMichael's Avatar
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    I replaced the stock fuse in my Onkyo A-9555 with the Hi Fi Tuning fuse. The difference was audible to me and one friend whose system was better than mine and a non audiophile friend. I guess if you have not tried it you do not speak from experience.
    JohnMichael
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  8. #8
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    Quote Originally Posted by JohnMichael
    I replaced the stock fuse in my Onkyo A-9555 with the Hi Fi Tuning fuse. The difference was audible to me and one friend whose system was better than mine and a non audiophile friend. I guess if you have not tried it you do not speak from experience.
    I've never tried a "Brazilian Bikini Wax", but positive I wouldn't like it---not even a little.

    What exactly do the "Tuning Fuses" tune? Do different amperage fuses tune differently? The parameters for the internal wire has to be different, so should result in a different sound. Any experience trying different values? How do you know you're getting the best sound you can? Is the effect more pronounced with your Onkyo, or Emaidel's Parasound preamp? Is the improvement more noticeable in fused speakers, sources, amps? Do you think Emaidel would notice identical changes if he listened to your Onkyo?

    You could start a service for matching fuses to different brands and models. Possibly start a new forum with threads for Krell, CJ, etc... Seems a good opportunity for someone who believes in the product. Let me know when you make your first $1M. Be sure to offer a money-back guarantee.

  9. #9
    Music Junkie E-Stat's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by bfalls
    What exactly do the "Tuning Fuses" tune?
    That would be the sound quality of the component in which the fuse is used.

    Quote Originally Posted by bfalls
    The parameters for the internal wire has to be different, so should result in a different sound. Any experience trying different values?
    Correct. I have totally bypassed the fuse block on an older speaker with similar improvements in clarity. Any changes to the value of the fuse may affect the sound quality at the expense of compromising the safety of the device.

    Quote Originally Posted by bfalls
    How do you know you're getting the best sound you can?
    You know that you are not. Bypassing the fuse altogether would provide the best sound, but again compromise safety.

    Quote Originally Posted by bfalls
    Is the improvement more noticeable in fused speakers, sources, amps?
    The question of most noticeable would be component specific.

    rw

  10. #10
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    So far there are four members here at AR (including myself) who have tried the Hi-Fi Tuning fuses, and were sastisfied with the results. Stereophile also, while initially skeptical (as was I) admitted that there was a noticeable improvement with them, and have listed them as a "Recommended Component." I used them first in my speakers, and then later put five of them in my Adcom GFA-5800 amp. I felt they made a major improvement in sound in the speakers, but a much greater difference in the amp. And, I can assure you, bfalls, that this is no "placebo" effect.

    So, rather than vilify and condemn those of us who praise the benefits of these fuses, and accuse us of largely imaging things, try one for yourself. Then, and only then, can you say with any sense of authority or credibility, whether or not it did anything. And no hiding behind "I won't spend $35 for a fuse" as an excuse either!

  11. #11
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    Quote Originally Posted by E-Stat
    That would be the sound quality of the component in which the fuse is used.


    Correct. I have totally bypassed the fuse block on an older speaker with similar improvements in clarity. Any changes to the value of the fuse may affect the sound quality at the expense of compromising the safety of the device.


    You know that you are not. Bypassing the fuse altogether would provide the best sound, but again compromise safety.


    The question of most noticeable would be component specific.

    rw
    You speak in generalities. "Component specific", "similar improvements in clarity". "Component specific", implies not all components will have the same improvements (your results may vary). It's not much of a jump in reasoning to say, it's possible some will have no improvement, or could possibly sound worse? Are you ready to state all treated components will have improved clarity? You may get the same perceived results by increasing the treble.

    You assume by different values that I'm asking you to increase the amperage rating. Can't the value be less without compromising safety? Possibly a 1.5A instead of a 2A. By implying only the designed value is correct is like stating a 2A power supply circuit can only be specifically "tuned" with a 2A fuse"? There's always a little "wiggle room" when engineering a design. Any good engineer wouldn't design only for normal usage. I doubt a few fractions of an amp either way would compromise safety.

    I see by your profile you're a software engineer. Any thoughts of tweaking your PC/MAC? Do you feel switching fuses will improve data, increase processing speed, decrease re-sends? After all it's all data (analog and digital).

  12. #12
    Forum Regular audio amateur's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by bfalls
    I've never tried a "Brazilian Bikini Wax", but positive I wouldn't like it---not even a little.

    What exactly do the "Tuning Fuses" tune? Do different amperage fuses tune differently? The parameters for the internal wire has to be different, so should result in a different sound. Any experience trying different values? How do you know you're getting the best sound you can? Is the effect more pronounced with your Onkyo, or Emaidel's Parasound preamp? Is the improvement more noticeable in fused speakers, sources, amps? Do you think Emaidel would notice identical changes if he listened to your Onkyo?

    You could start a service for matching fuses to different brands and models. Possibly start a new forum with threads for Krell, CJ, etc... Seems a good opportunity for someone who believes in the product. Let me know when you make your first $1M. Be sure to offer a money-back guarantee.
    OMG I'm stunned by your boldness! But I like it! Rock on buddy!

    (those who feel offended don't take it personnaly)

  13. #13
    Music Junkie E-Stat's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by bfalls
    You speak in generalities. "Component specific", "similar improvements in clarity". "Component specific", implies not all components will have the same improvements (your results may vary).
    Obviously, the differences will be different if we're talking about a Bose Wave Radio vs. an Audio Research REF5.

    Quote Originally Posted by bfalls
    It's not much of a jump in reasoning to say, it's possible some will have no improvement...
    See previous response.

    Quote Originally Posted by bfalls
    Are you ready to state all treated components will have improved clarity?
    Certainly not. For the third time, the level of improvement is proportional to the resolution of the device in which the fuse is used.

    Quote Originally Posted by bfalls
    You may get the same perceived results by increasing the treble.
    Your simplistic speculation is not supported by my experience. Improved resolution does NOT mean a brighter signal. In fact, I find that the removal of many sources of noise results in what initially sounds like a "darker" signal. Improved resolution and faithfulness to the original reveals previously masked detail.

    Quote Originally Posted by bfalls
    You assume by different values that I'm asking you to increase the amperage rating. Can't the value be less without compromising safety?
    The obvious answer is yes.

    Quote Originally Posted by bfalls
    I doubt a few fractions of an amp either way would compromise safety.
    Agreed, but find no relevance to this reasoning to the topic at hand.

    Quote Originally Posted by bfalls
    I see by your profile you're a software engineer. Any thoughts of tweaking your PC/MAC? Do you feel switching fuses will improve data, increase processing speed, decrease re-sends?
    You are comparing apples and kohlrabi. A valid comparison would be for an equally high resolution instrument such as a SEM.

    Quote Originally Posted by bfalls
    After all it's all data (analog and digital).
    With respect to digital audio data, that is most certainly NOT the case. The timing of the march of digits is vitally important to the quality of the final product. Perhaps you've never heard of jitter.

    rw

  14. #14
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    Quote Originally Posted by E-Stat
    Obviously, the differences will be different if we're talking about a Bose Wave Radio vs. an Audio Research REF5.


    See previous response.


    Certainly not. For the third time, the level of improvement is proportional to the resolution of the device in which the fuse is used.


    Your simplistic speculation is not supported by my experience. Improved resolution does NOT mean a brighter signal. In fact, I find that the removal of many sources of noise results in what initially sounds like a "darker" signal. Improved resolution and faithfulness to the original reveals previously masked detail.


    The obvious answer is yes.


    Agreed, but find no relevance to this reasoning to the topic at hand.


    You are comparing apples and kohlrabi. A valid comparison would be for an equally high resolution instrument such as a SEM.


    With respect to digital audio data, that is most certainly NOT the case. The timing of the march of digits is vitally important to the quality of the final product. Perhaps you've never heard of jitter.

    rw
    Yes, I'm more than familiar with jitter, I work with CD/DVD mastering equipment daily. I'm not only familiar with jitter, but understand the effects of reflectivity, asymmetry, PI, PO and other digital electrical measurements. How about you, are you familiar with industry standards? Understand how discs are manufactured? Familiar with DDP, ISO media formats, ISO 9660, UDF file systems, glass and wafer mastering, CATS, Datarious DVD/CD electrical measurement systems, copy-control methodology....

    For seven years prior to working in digital manufacturing, I was a network administrator for one of America's largest plastic film manufacturer. I was responsible for administration of communications between 7 North American plants and 12 sales offices using T1/T3, ISDN, Frame-Relay and dial-backup security communication. I believe I'm a little familiar with data.

    You were talking about tuning fuses in power supplies and the effects (clarity) heard. I come from a more finite background where "if it can be heard, it can be measured", so your feeling and perceptions don't sway me. You come from a data background, show me data. Reproduceable data. If you're going to jump on the bandwagon, at least learn to play an instrument.

  15. #15
    Music Junkie E-Stat's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by bfalls
    Yes, I'm more than familiar with...etc.
    Then your response "After all it's all data (analog and digital)" becomes more intriguing. Presumably then, you know that accurate musical reproduction of "just data" is far more complex. Are you a critical music listener? Do you have regular exposure to the sound of live unamplified music?

    Quote Originally Posted by bfalls
    You were talking about tuning fuses in power supplies and the effects (clarity) heard.
    You are mistaken and need to review my comments. "I have totally bypassed the fuse block on an older speaker with similar improvements in clarity. " While I purchased a power fuse for my CDP, I have not as yet used it. Thus far, I have only used them in the signal path of my speakers. I will comment on the value of the power supply application once I have done it.

    Quote Originally Posted by bfalls
    I come from a more finite background where "if it can be heard, it can be measured", so your feeling and perceptions don't sway me.
    Do you really believe that metrics can fully describe the performance envelope of any audio component today?

    Quote Originally Posted by bfalls
    If you're going to jump on the bandwagon, at least learn to play an instrument.
    That instrument is my practiced ear.

    rw
    Last edited by E-Stat; 10-16-2009 at 06:01 AM.

  16. #16
    Shostakovich fan Feanor's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by bfalls
    I've never tried a "Brazilian Bikini Wax", but positive I wouldn't like it---not even a little.

    What exactly do the "Tuning Fuses" tune? Do different amperage fuses tune differently? The parameters for the internal wire has to be different, so should result in a different sound. Any experience trying different values? How do you know you're getting the best sound you can? Is the effect more pronounced with your Onkyo, or Emaidel's Parasound preamp? Is the improvement more noticeable in fused speakers, sources, amps? Do you think Emaidel would notice identical changes if he listened to your Onkyo?

    ...
    Just for emphasis, let me point out that fuses can be used in four different locations in any given component:
    1. Before the power supply, that is, on the incoming AC line;
    2. Downstream of the power supply but ahead of the signal processing circuits
    3. In the signal processing ciruits but not in the direct signal path, that is, in a parallel path that "tunes" the direct path, (although you seldom or never see fuses use this way, capacitors, resistors, coils, etc., are routinely used in these circuits)
    4. In the direct signal path.
    The plausibility of improvement from a better fuse increases as you go from 1 to 5.

    I use Hifi Tuning fuse ahead the tweeters of my Magneplanar speakers, that is, in the direct signal path, and I think I hear a small improvement. (I liken this improvement to wiping a fine layer of dust from the front of you TV screen.)

  17. #17
    Music Junkie E-Stat's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Feanor
    I use Hifi Tuning fuse ahead the tweeters of my Magneplanar speakers, that is, in the direct signal path, and I think I hear a small improvement. (I liken this improvement to wiping a fine layer of dust from the front of you TV screen.)
    Exactly. One of the many reasons why Wilson Audio speakers are expensive is they use small precision metal film resistors in lieu of fuses in the signal path for protection.

    rw

  18. #18
    3db
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    This fuse arguement (discussion and lets keep it friendly) reminds me of the old cable/interconnect debate thats been going on since like forever. The way I see it...a fuse is a simply a srtip of metal that is used to conduct current. If an attempt is made to conduct more current than the fuse is rated for, the metal strip over heats and melts causing an open circuit. Unless extremely reactive (i.e. inductive or capacitve which I can't see being) there is no way it will alter the signal going through it. If I were to replace my fuses, I would only do so if I had ready access to a DBT test. This way, my ears won't be prejudiced by preconceived ideas. When it comes to conductors and propogation of a signal through a conductor, , I trust science way more than my ears.

  19. #19
    3db
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    Quote Originally Posted by E-Stat
    Exactly. One of the many reasons why Wilson Audio speakers are expensive is they use small precision metal film resistors in lieu of fuses in the signal path for protection.

    rw
    As long as the metal film resistor is not part of teh crossoer circuit, I cannot understand how this would maek any difference in the quaity of sound.

  20. #20
    Music Junkie E-Stat's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by 3db
    Unless extremely reactive (i.e. inductive or capacitve which I can't see being) there is no way it will alter the signal going through it.
    I just love the confidence of experience-free theory!

    rw

  21. #21
    Music Junkie E-Stat's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by 3db
    As long as the metal film resistor is not part of teh crossoer circuit, I cannot understand how this would maek any difference in the quaity of sound.
    It is and I'm not surprised.

    rw

  22. #22
    3db
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    Quote Originally Posted by E-Stat
    I just love the confidence of experience-free theory!

    rw
    I know the feeling.. so did you verify your result swith a DBT test? Man was put on the moon through the application of theory, not snake oil. And all theory dictates that a strip of metal of the length found in a use in a vacum can not impart any kind of sonic signature.

  23. #23
    3db
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    Quote Originally Posted by E-Stat
    It is and I'm not surprised.

    rw
    Since when is a fuse used in a crossover? The metal film was used in the crossover because of its tighter tolerance of resistance. Its resistance in combination with the other components in the crossover is what defines a crossover...not some piece of metal with almost zereo resistance that burns on the application of too much current. Your logic is flawed with this arguement.

  24. #24
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    I have never been a proponent of the "if it exists, then it can be measured," or conversely, " if it cannot be measured, then it doesn't exist" mentality. How then would one measure the specific placement of instruments within a stereo image, or the breadth and depth of the soundstage? There's no denying that such a thing as a stereo image exists, and that some equipment is better than others in producing it, yet there's no way at all to effectively measure why one speaker/amplifier/etc. is better than another in reprodcing it. Nor is there a way to measure the soundstage either, yet there are enormous differences in both the width and depth of a soundstage, again depending on many of the different components within a system.

    If someone here (myself, or others) claims to hear something as a result of changing a piece of equipment, or even a fuse, why can't someone who has NOT heard what we have, nor has done what we've done, simply accept such, and leave it be at that? I know what I hear, and having anyone telling me that I'm really not hearing what I know I'm hearing is rather pointless, no? What is to be gained by such an endeavor?

  25. #25
    Music Junkie E-Stat's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by 3db
    I know the feeling.. so did you verify your result swith a DBT test?
    Apparently, you do not know what a DBT is or you wouldn't have asked that question. Hint: it is impossible unless you introduce spurious black boxes into the equation with contacts that would completely mask the results. Great idea! My conclusions are based upon experience, not arm chair speculation.

    Quote Originally Posted by 3db
    Man was put on the moon through the application of theory, not snake oil.
    No scientific endeavor relies upon theory alone. Thank heavens! It requires experimentation and validation. Theory alone fails to acknowledge one or more relevant factors later discovered. Do you remember what the original theory was for the ideal atmosphere inside the Apollo capsules?

    Quote Originally Posted by 3db
    And all theory dictates that a strip of metal of the length found in a use in a vacum can not impart any kind of sonic signature.
    I'll ask the question again and see if you will respond this time. Have you ever bypassed a fuse before and listened to the difference? Or conversely, added another fuse to the signal path?

    rw

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