emaidel was right about the Hi-Fi Tuning fuses

[Luvin Da Blues]

And, I Googled "1964 Chateau Lafite Rothschild Pauilllac" and discovered the average selling price for it in the U.S. today is a whopping $562!!

That $562 could buy a few "fuses". I have never heard the virtues of these "Golden " fuses but with the endorsements from respectable (no bulsh!t) AR members here and in magazines I think that there must be something to it.

My theory is that the fuse link in a standard fuse is a different material from the conductor. This link is designed get 'softer" with the more current that flows thru it. This has to affect the signal passing thru it. Could be that these fuses use a material that remains stable up to the fuses rating?

[E-Stat]

Could be that these fuses use a material that remains stable up to the fuses rating?

For one thing, the conductor is made of silver.

rw

[audio amateur]

Seeing as the fuse is in the direct signal path (in E-Stats situation), the case of a change in sound is already more plausible.

[3db]

I am responding to 3db's claim that only DBTs can be valuable aids for assessing audible differences with audio gear. While he has not responded yet to my question, I suspect he really does not understand what a DBT entails and the series of unsupported assumptions presumed by ALL audio based DBTs that involve discrete components and not just computer generated content.

rw

I was away celebrating my mom's 80th birthday. My DBT if you will would consist of a person switching back and forth from speakers that thave teh fuse to speakers without the fuse. The listener would not be given any prior knowledge to which setup contains teh fuse and which one doesn't. I don't give a rats ass either wether the person swithcing back and forth knows the seup or not. It plays no outcome to the listener. What I'm testing for is the listners outrageous claim that a fuse imparts a sonic signature. If you understood electrical principles, you would see my point.Continue to hang on to your limp subjective and scientifically unprovable claim that you can hear a difference. At least I'm willing to go up to bat and go through a controlled blinded listening test. I'm willing to be proved wrong. But you on the other hand like every other person who make unsubstantiated claims rather present arguements against a valid test..In other words, scared of being proven wrong.

[emaidel]

the listners outrageous claim that a fuse imparts a sonic signature. If you understood electrical principles, you would see my point.Continue to hang on to your limp subjective and scientifically unprovable claim that you can hear a difference. At least I'm willing to go up to bat and go through a controlled blinded listening test. I'm willing to be proved wrong. But you on the other hand like every other person who make unsubstantiated claims rather present arguements against a valid test..In other words, scared of being proven wrong.

You, sir, are way out of line here. I have heard a differencee with the use of these fuses, and so has everyone who has heard my system since I installed them. So too have the editors of Stereophile who list them as a "Recommended Component." Do you think they're nuts too?

I'd be happy to partake in a DBT (which I do often in wine tastings, and with very interesting results), but I certainly dont need one to "substantiate" that which I know I'm hearing. In years past, when I replaced one good phono cartridge with a better one, and heard big differences between the two, both often measured quite similarly, so measurements don't necessarily reveal everything inherent in something affecting reproduced sound.

You continually refuse to accept the statements from those of us who've used the fuses - and heard a difference - as anything other than "limp, subjective and scientifically unprovable" rather than just allowing us to try to inform others of the benefits of these fuses. In the end, it's your loss and not ours. You can continue to live with your myopic views on what does, or doesn't, work to improve the sound of an audio system. The rest of us will continue to enjoy whatever little tweaks we can do to improve the sound of ours.

[JohnMichael]

You, sir, are way out of line here. I have heard a differencee with the use of these fuses, and so has everyone who has heard my system since I installed them. So too have the editors of Stereophile who list them as a "Recommended Component." Do you think they're nuts too?

I'd be happy to partake in a DBT (which I do often in wine tastings, and with very interesting results), but I certainly dont need one to "substantiate" that which I know I'm hearing. In years past, when I replaced one good phono cartridge with a better one, and heard big differences between the two, both often measured quite similarly, so measurements don't necessarily reveal everything inherent in something affecting reproduced sound.

You continually refuse to accept the statements from those of us who've used the fuses - and heard a difference - as anything other than "limp, subjective and scientifically unprovable" rather than just allowing us to try to inform others of the benefits of these fuses. In the end, it's your loss and not ours. You can continue to live with your myopic views on what does, or doesn't, work to improve the sound of an audio system. The rest of us will continue to enjoy whatever little tweaks we can do to improve the sound of ours.

Well said and that was all I was doing was sharing the results of an inexpensive tweak.

[E-Stat]

My DBT if you will would consist of a person switching back and forth from speakers that thave teh fuse to speakers without the fuse.

Interesting take. First, you would need to carefully match the two pair of speakers because there will necessarily be variations even before another variable is introduced with fuses. Such would never work for me given a) the expense of two sets of SL U-1s and b) the fact that, given their size, 400 lbs of speakers would have to be moved in and out for each and every trial not to mention paying careful attention to duplicating placement.

I don't give a rats ass either wether the person swithcing back and forth knows the seup or not.

I agree, but that is necessarily NOT a double blind test. The administrator doing the switching would have to be blinded. Such is a single blind test.

If you understood electrical principles, you would see my point.

Tell us the ironclad and proven theory behind your speculation.

But you on the other hand like every other person who make unsubstantiated claims rather present arguements (sic) against a valid test.

It is truly difficult to conduct a DBT when one such as you doesn't even know what it is exactly. I have pointed out the practical limitations in my case.

I'm willing to be proved wrong.

How can you be proven wrong when you've already made up your decision - even before ever trying it out? Your result will be self-fulfilling!

.In other words, scared of being proven wrong.

rw

[Feanor]

...
It is truly difficult to conduct a DBT when one such as you doesn't even know what it is exactly. I have pointed out the practical limitations in my case.
...

rw

And I was quilty too of the careless use of "DBT". However, E-Stat, as you & I discussed, the particular distinction between "single" and "double" blind in this case, preventing administrator bias, is insignificant in case of relatively simple audio testing. I feel you are beating 3LB a bit too hard on the DBT definition aspect.

I've said I thought I heard a dfference using Hifi Tuning fuse a direct signal path, specifcally a tweeter fuse. However I'm not sure I could pass an SBT -- or DBT; in fact I did't even do a non-blind A-B series. I just stuck them in , thought I heard a very small improvement, and left them there.

[E-Stat]

The rest of us will continue to enjoy whatever little tweaks we can do to improve the sound of ours.

Indeed. With the wife traveling, I spent a lot of time listening to the main system this weekend and put the other new fuse in the GamuT CD-1. While I listened to a range of material from Bach to Madonna, there is new level of detail to be found. Even with Madonna, there was more clarity to the rhythmic background and her voice articulation on Hard Candy. You are suddenly aware of small details that you had never before heard. Just like every time I've played familiar material on a reviewer friend's spectacular reference system. I'll mention this to him.

Thanks again.

rw

[3db]

Interesting take. First, you would need to carefully match the two pair of speakers because there will necessarily be variations even before another variable is introduced with fuses. Such would never work for me given a) the expense of two sets of SL U-1s and b) the fact that, given their size, 400 lbs of speakers would have to be moved in and out for each and every trial not to mention paying careful attention to duplicating placement.


I agree, but that is necessarily NOT a double blind test. The administrator doing the switching would have to be blinded. Such is a single blind test.


Tell us the ironclad and proven theory behind your speculation.


It is truly difficult to conduct a DBT when one such as you doesn't even know what it is exactly. I have pointed out the practical limitations in my case.


How can you be proven wrong when you've already made up your decision - even before ever trying it out? Your result will be self-fulfilling!




rw

I can understand the problem with doing tests with your speakers unless the fusing could be rigged just to switch in out the fuse instead of moving speakers around to switch fuses.

The theory without getting overly technical is that a metal's electrons are easily ripped from their orbits around the nucleus. The easier the electrons are pulled from their orbit, the better a conductor that material makes and the less energy required to make that happen. The distance between the nucleus and orbit of the electrons is what determines how easy/hard it is to break the free electrons from their orbit.The greater that distance, the less potential is required to strip the electrons from their nucleus. Its simply an energy state relationship unlike the phono cartridge example you've supplied. I can TOTALLY understand how one cartridge could sound better/worse/different than another simply because there' s a electrical-mechanical interface there based on geometries of movement, variances of the coils between channels, etc. But in electrical conduction through a metal, its just supply potential enough to cause current flow and it requires very little potential for that too happen.

As far as my attending a SBT.. I can see your point. being very skeptical...but if I did hear the difference I would fess up..

[emaidel]

.

Thanks again.

rw

And, again, you're welcome! And there's more to come!

[3db]

You, sir, are way out of line here. I have heard a differencee with the use of these fuses, and so has everyone who has heard my system since I installed them. So too have the editors of Stereophile who list them as a "Recommended Component." Do you think they're nuts too?.

I never said nuts. I just happen to think that listening with eyes open is far less accurate then to listen with eyes closed. The mind has a way of fooling everyone. And yes, I don't put much stock into Stereophile's "heard the difference" if its not accompanied by specifications indicating why. Its a subjective sales job.

I'd be happy to partake in a DBT (which I do often in wine tastings, and with very interesting results), but I certainly dont need one to "substantiate" that which I know I'm hearing. In years past, when I replaced one good phono cartridge with a better one, and heard big differences between the two, both often measured quite similarly, so measurements don't necessarily reveal everything inherent in something affecting reproduced sound.

Off course you won't. You join the rank and file of everyone else who claims they can the differences with subjective claims. but to test yourself in what your hearing would be totally out of the question becuase you already know what you hear through what you see.

You continually refuse to accept the statements from those of us who've used the fuses - and heard a difference - as anything other than "limp, subjective and scientifically unprovable" rather than just allowing us to try to inform others of the benefits of these fuses. In the end, it's your loss and not ours. You can continue to live with your myopic views on what does, or doesn't, work to improve the sound of an audio system. The rest of us will continue to enjoy whatever little tweaks we can do to improve the sound of ours.

I'm not the myopic one here I'm afraid. I'm willing to go to bat and be prooven wrong but you hide behind your subjective fact that you know. This fuse is just another myth like power chords expensive audicables, and cable lifters. Your example of a phono cartridge doesn't even apply to this arguement. If the subjective claim cannot be backed up with data explaining what you hear, than the claim remains subjective and uproven.

[emaidel]

And there's more to come!

The "more to come" was going to be a thorough discussion of the amazing benefits of the "Vibrapod" and "Vibracone" isolators I just purchased. While I'm nothing less than delighted with the results of using these devices, they've already been extensively - and positively - reviewed here on AR.

As for the previous post, I've already stated I have no faith in the "if it cannot be tested and documented, it doesn't exist" mentality. I'm quite content to live in my "dream world" in which I imagine that one thing sounds better than another, regardless of how anyone else does his best to try to disprove what I, and others, hear. As far as I know, there haven't been any scientific tests done to prove the claims made for the Vibraods and Vibracones, so, despite the plethora of glowingly positive reviews on them from a myriad of sources, all those making such claims must be mistaken and are only imagining such.

[bfalls]

The "more to come" was going to be a thorough discussion of the amazing benefits of the "Vibrapod" and "Vibracone" isolators I just purchased. While I'm nothing less than delighted with the results of using these devices, they've already been extensively - and positively - reviewed here on AR.

As for the previous post, I've already stated I have no faith in the "if it cannot be tested and documented, it doesn't exist" mentality. I'm quite content to live in my "dream world" in which I imagine that one thing sounds better than another, regardless of how anyone else does his best to try to disprove what I, and others, hear. As far as I know, there haven't been any scientific tests done to prove the claims made for the Vibraods and Vibracones, so, despite the plethora of glowingly positive reviews on them from a myriad of sources, all those making such claims must be mistaken and are only imagining such.

I much rather hear you rant on the benefits of Shakti Stones. Another questionable tweak (in another thread...please!). I've used vibrapods and "Little Feet" and other sorbothane products for vibration isolation with both components and bookshelf speakers and feel they have value. I'm also sure the benefits can/have been measured. I don't recall them being called into question.

I would also like to hear your opinions on the effects of age on hearing in men. Your profile states you were 64 when you started with AR. "Golden Ears" or not, what's your secret for escaping high and mid frequency loss with age? This fact alone brings into question your ability to detect such minor changes in detail.

At age 54, I know my hearing is not what it was. I know how to and frequently listen critically to all types of audio. I've been trained over the years while performing EQ calibrations in A/B and QC listening rooms working for CBS Records and Tapes in the mid 70s early 80s and again for Sony. When starting at Sony four years ago, a hearing test was required. Everything looked good, except for a dip in the upper frequencies between 15KHz and 20KHz. I don't work in a noisy environment and haven't attended excessively loud rock concerts, so can't attribute either to the loss.

At 64+, I have to believe your hearing has been affected, probably moreso in the mid-range since it's the primary range where hearing aids compensate for losses (I'll bet there's an age frequency loss chart available somewhere). Let us in on the secret where at 64+ you can still detect the subtle difference of signal passing through a 1" piece of silver wire (cryogenically treated) and a copper one. There's no way to test this outside of crawling into your head (shudder). So we're back at square one. Neither of us can prove or disprove what you hear/think you hear.

"I'm quite content to live in my "dream world" in which I imagine that one thing sounds better than another, regardless of how anyone else does his best to try to disprove what I, and others, hear." I think this thread has run its course.

[E-Stat]

The theory without getting overly technical is...in electrical conduction through a metal, its just supply potential enough to cause current flow and it requires very little potential for that too happen.

That's pretty funny! Should do well for your Captain Meteorite audition!

rw

[E-Stat]

I much rather hear you rant on the benefits of Shakti Stones. Another questionable tweak (in another thread...please!).

Ever heard a conventional laminated transformer hum? Ever wondered how low level circuitry inches away might be affected? Ever heard of EMI? Ever wondered why toroidal transformers have all but replaced the laminated type? The answers are all related. The VPI Magic Brick of many years ago addressed the same issue. Either product can reduce the local effects to nearby sensitive circuitry for the easily measured EMI field radiated by large laminated trannies.

At age 54, I know my hearing is not what it was...Everything looked good, except for a dip in the upper frequencies between 15KHz and 20KHz.

There is precious little musical content above 15k. The improvements I hear via the silver fuses are well below the 10k-20k octave.

rw

[3db]

That's pretty funny! Should do well for your Captain Meteorite audition!

rw

Unfortunately, I can't dumb it down any more than that to aid you in your understanding of current flow in a conductor.

[3db]

Ever heard a conventional lamintated transformer hum? Ever wondered how low level circuitry inches away might be affected? Ever heard of EMI? Ever wondered why toroidal transformers have all but replaced the laminated type? The answers are all related. The VPI Magic Brick of many years ago addressed the same issue. Either product can reduce the local effects to nearby sensitive circuitry for the easily measured EMI field radiated by large laminated trannies.


There is precious little musical content above 15k. The improvements I hear via the silver fuses are well below the 10k-20k octave.

rw

No hum in a fuse and certainly no fields setup of any kind in a straight conductor. EMI..not from a fuse..

Fuse and transformer behaviour are two different animals and there is NO correlation between the two. Fuses don't generate fields..

[E-Stat]

Unfortunately, I can't dumb it down any more than that to aid you in your understanding of current flow in a conductor.

Your "explanation" devoid of actual important metrics such as inductance, capacitance, etc. fails to explain any notion of causation.

rw

[E-Stat]

No hum in a fuse and certainly no fields setup of any kind in a straight conductor. EMI..not from a fuse..

Keep up with the topic at hand - Shakti stones.

rw

[E-Stat]

This fuse is just another myth like power chords (sic) expensive audicables, and cable lifters.

I feel in fine company with many notable recording engineers whose direct experience (you know - actually using them in a system vs. contemplating what they might do) suggests otherwise. While this list is composed by Grant Samuelsen of Shunyata, it does not alter the facts:

"Bob Ludwig (one of the worlds top recording engineers) Uses after-market power cords, conditioners and cabling throughout his recording studio and swears by them (not at them)

Rick Rubin (multi-grammy winning producer) Uses after-market power cords throughout his home studio and has had them over-nighted overseas for recording projects). He recommends them tirelessly to studios he works with and is very outspoken about their value.

James Guthrie (Grammy winner,Floyd's DSOTM mastering engineer) Uses and enthusiastically recommends after market PC's to colleagues, including Sony Japan, who after testing them in their systems purchased dozens of them at retail from a Japanese distributor. What no spiff? Nope, dozens of $1k and $2k power cords at retail--after testing.

Doug Sax (see James Guthrie) They are close, so even hardened skeptic DS was won over after hearing what they brought to the system used for SACD remaster of DOSTM

SkyWalker Sound (15 Grammys for best sound) Purchased multiple after market PC's for their studios, recommends them to others.

Steve Hoffman (Grammy winner, sound engineer) uses a variety of aftermarket power cords and even blogs and reviews about his experiences.

Stephen Epstein (Multi-Grammy winning engineer for Isaac Stern, Yo Yo Ma, Perlman etc) Uses after market PC's and refers to them as essential to his checking of masters.

Peter McGrath (Recording engineer) uses after market PC's for all his recording work at home and brings them with."

Quotes by engineers

This comment by a musician and trustee of a symphony perfectly describes my experience:

"Here is what I heard: The most dramatic effect was an improvement in transduced acoustics. Previously I heard vocal or musical instruments that sounded excellent but were missing something relative to a live performance experience. Now I heard harmonic depth within and between voices and instruments that provide the richness and stage presence of a live performance. Now the individual voices and instruments interact with one another as in real life. Now I easily heard the small echoes, reverberations and other cues (some people call this inner detail) associated with a live performance space that were previously absent. The speed of dynamic changes in percussion instruments (attack) were also improved to better resemble a live performance."

BTW, it was a thirty year member of the Atlanta Symphony Chorus, board of directors, perpetual season ticket holder and contributor to the Absolute Sound who introduced me to the concept. The sad part is that it is YOUR loss.

rw

[emaidel]

[QUOTE=bfalls]

I much rather hear you rant on the benefits of Shakti Stones.

I would also like to hear your opinions on the effects of age on hearing in men. Your profile states you were 64 when you started with AR. "Golden Ears" or not, what's your secret for escaping high and mid frequency loss with age? This fact alone brings into question your ability to detect such minor changes in detail.

At 64+, I have to believe your hearing has been affected, probably moreso in the mid-range since it's the primary range where hearing aids compensate for losses (I'll bet there's an age frequency loss chart available somewhere). Let us in on the secret where at 64+ you can still detect the subtle difference of signal passing through a 1" piece of silver wire (cryogenically treated) and a copper one. There's no way to test this outside of crawling into your head (shudder). So we're back at square one. Neither of us can prove or disprove what you hear/think you hear.

QUOTE]

At this point, I really don't give a rat's a$$ what you think, or would rather hear. The fact is actually quite simple: you're just too %^#)#*%-ing cheap to spend the $35 for one of these fuses and to try it out for yourself. Your persistent hiding behind the need for testing a product first to validate any claims for it, while ignoring the possibility that you might actually HEAR something without such tests is getting very, very tiresome.

I'm almost 65, and have no idea whether or not I'm suffering hearing loss of any type. I have a critical ear, and have had such for most of my adult life, over 30 years of which was spent in the Consumer Electronics Industry. I know when I hear something that sounds better to me than something else, and that's all the validation I need to know to accept that such a difference, or such differences, is/are real. If I hear it, it exists, whether or not someone first tested whatever it is that I'm hearing. Your criticisms have turned into needless personal attacks and you really ought to quit while you're behind. I find your comments, especially this last one, highly offensive and unecessary.

[emaidel]

Indeed. With the wife traveling, I spent a lot of time listening to the main system this weekend and put the other new fuse in the GamuT CD-1. While I listened to a range of material from Bach to Madonna, there is new level of detail to be found. Even with Madonna, there was more clarity to the rhythmic background and her voice articulation on Hard Candy. You are suddenly aware of small details that you had never before heard. Just like every time I've played familiar material on a reviewer friend's spectacular reference system. I'll mention this to him.

Thanks again.

rw

I'm glad you've heard what you've heard, and are pleased with your (modest) investment in another Hi-Fi tuning Fuse. As I've previously posted, I initially installed two each in my Dahlquist DQ-10 speakers, and then five in my Adcom GFA-5800 amp. While installing them in the speakers made a difference, the difference was considerably greater in the amp - perhaps because of a total of five, and then again, perhaps not. I just don't know.

There are three other components I have which I hope to install these fuses in: my subwoofer, my preamp and my SACD player. If the fuse in both the preamp and SACD player is easily accessible just by removing the cover, then it's a done deal, but if it's hard to get at, I'll just leave the component as is. The subwoofer is just a matter of moving it off the spikes it's sitting on, and removing the fuse from the back to check on its value.

Aside from the Vibrapods and Vibracones, I don't know of any other upgrade that makes as much of a difference, and costs so little.

[bfalls]

[QUOTE=emaidel]

I much rather hear you rant on the benefits of Shakti Stones.

I would also like to hear your opinions on the effects of age on hearing in men. Your profile states you were 64 when you started with AR. "Golden Ears" or not, what's your secret for escaping high and mid frequency loss with age? This fact alone brings into question your ability to detect such minor changes in detail.

At 64+, I have to believe your hearing has been affected, probably moreso in the mid-range since it's the primary range where hearing aids compensate for losses (I'll bet there's an age frequency loss chart available somewhere). Let us in on the secret where at 64+ you can still detect the subtle difference of signal passing through a 1" piece of silver wire (cryogenically treated) and a copper one. There's no way to test this outside of crawling into your head (shudder). So we're back at square one. Neither of us can prove or disprove what you hear/think you hear.

QUOTE]

At this point, I really don't give a rat's a$$ what you think, or would rather hear. The fact is actually quite simple: you're just too %^#)#*%-ing cheap to spend the $35 for one of these fuses and to try it out for yourself. Your persistent hiding behind the need for testing a product first to validate any claims for it, while ignoring the possibility that you might actually HEAR something without such tests is getting very, very tiresome.

I'm almost 65, and have no idea whether or not I'm suffering hearing loss of any type. I have a critical ear, and have had such for most of my adult life, over 30 years of which was spent in the Consumer Electronics Industry. I know when I hear something that sounds better to me than something else, and that's all the validation I need to know to accept that such a difference, or such differences, is/are real. If I hear it, it exists, whether or not someone first tested whatever it is that I'm hearing. Your criticisms have turned into needless personal attacks and you really ought to quit while you're behind. I find your comments, especially this last one, highly offensive and unecessary.

I believe I hit a nerve. It's not a personal attack, ,just an observation and valid reason to question your results. How can it be a personal attack when I offer that I suffer from loss at higher frequencies myself? Although not detrimentally since "There is precious little musical content above 15k". "Mans got to know his limitations." (Dirty Harry).

You venture into the offensive yourself with comments like" Ever heard a conventional laminated transformer hum? Duh, yeah. It's because it doesn't know the words, right? Ever wondered how low level circuitry inches away might be affected? One of the main reasons to design for short signal paths. Ever heard of EMI? Heard of it and designed for and around it in high and low power control circuits. Ever wondered why toroidal transformers have all but replaced the laminated type? Know and understand for field effects and convenience in design of multi-channel receivers. No offense intended on my part, just another of the "myopic views" you complain about.

[E-Stat]

I'm glad you've heard what you've heard, and are pleased with your (modest) investment in another Hi-Fi tuning Fuse. As I've previously posted, I initially installed two each in my Dahlquist DQ-10 speakers, and then five in my Adcom GFA-5800 amp. While installing them in the speakers made a difference, the difference was considerably greater in the amp - perhaps because of a total of five, and then again, perhaps not. I just don't know.

That's true. My Stasis also has five fuses although I'm not as picky with the vintage system.

There are three other components I have which I hope to install these fuses in: my subwoofer, my preamp and my SACD player.

I would vote for the player first, then the preamp. I probably wouldn't bother with the sub given its limited range.

Aside from the Vibrapods and Vibracones, I don't know of any other upgrade that makes as much of a difference, and costs so little.

I also use Vibrapods with the preamp, Ceraball roller ball isolators with the CDP, and a good old HW-2 base for the VPI turntable.

rw