emaidel was right about the Hi-Fi Tuning fuses

[poppachubby]

Interesting reading here. I would like to chime in and say I find it funny that anyone would doubt the opinion of a high profile engineer/producer. Certainly someone in the position of Rick Rubin would not need to shamelessly "advertise" for the sake of money or the like.

Quite the opposite, these guys know what they like and more importantly, know what gets results. Of course, the company lucky enough to find their wares in use by these guys will want to exploit the fact as a means of advertising. Of course, they will offer endless cash and perks for the endorsement. However, the bottom line is that no producer/engineer as high profile as those mentioned, would need to endorse any product other than those they find of actual benefit.

Present topic aside, you can't cast away the opinions of proven studio gurus. These guys are basically genius' behind a board, I think they know a thing or two... you may find yourself in a state of denial should you not agree.

[3db]

Interesting reading here. I would like to chime in and say I find it funny that anyone would doubt the opinion of a high profile engineer/producer. Certainly someone in the position of Rick Rubin would not need to shamelessly "advertise" for the sake of money or the like.

Quite the opposite, these guys know what they like and more importantly, know what gets results. Of course, the company lucky enough to find their wares in use by these guys will want to exploit the fact as a means of advertising. Of course, they will offer endless cash and perks for the endorsement. However, the bottom line is that no producer/engineer as high profile as those mentioned, would need to endorse any product other than those they find of actual benefit.

Present topic aside, you can't cast away the opinions of proven studio gurus. These guys are basically genius' behind a board, I think they know a thing or two... you may find yourself in a state of denial should you not agree.

I'm not the lemming that follows the other over the cliff. I find these audio gurus' that are promotomh high dollar audio cables, fuses, and powr cords snowing the public. The problem is, nobody calls them on it and they won't enter a single blind test or a double blnd test which would quickly point out that they are not sure of what sounds better.

[3db]

[QUOTE=
you see, not everything can be measured, and when it can, you have to know what to measure. the example was made about early solid state measuring better about not SOUNDING better than the tubed electronics previously in this thread. better measurements were made possible by the misuse of feedback which undermined the sound of the products.

when discoveries in sound are made, the measurements to explain them many times, have yet to be devised. so stomping your foot and crowing that science doesnt support the sonic result of the tuning fuses is because of incomplete thinking on YOUR part.

in the meantime, if YOU dont hear a difference, dont but the fuses. the likelihood of your ever listening to those fuses is miniscule in any event.[/QUOTE]

I disagree. Everything you hear now in systems is based on carefully applied engineering and acoustic princples. Nothing goes into a design that cannot be measured. Do yourself a favour and read up on Dr. Floyd Toole's work. He clearly spells it out thhe many phsyco acooustics anomolies humans run into inlcuding audio memory. Of all the different types of memory, audio memory is one of the weakest ones. Yet, these so called audio gurus who claim to remember how could something sound 3 monthes ago fail to realize that audio memory is only accurate for about 2 minutes. That is why SBT or DBT testing is so important. It cuts thru all the chaff that influences what we hear.

A fuse is a conductor. Its conduction material is less than 2" . Its made of silver, one of the best naturally occuring conductors on the planet.. A 2" strip is NOT long enough to possess any serious values of parasytic inductance and capacitance (which by the way are the only aspects that could alter the sound as it acts as a filter) that could alter the sound, espcially in the audio spectrum.

I'm firmly entrenched in the camp of Dr Floyd Toole and others who take a systematic approach using science and physics. I would also enlist into a SBT or DBT test to be able to be proven wrong. At least I'm willing to be proven wrong unlike the gurus who hide behind their subjective wall chiming in that they hear the difference and won't take the test because they "hear" better.

[hifitommy]

i dont particularly care whether YOU want to use a product or not. IF i try a wire (ferinstance) or a fuse, and i hear a difference that i like, i will probably use it provided it isnt prohibitively priced. i wont be seeking your approval of such. nor will i heed any of your caveats.

i respect floyd toole but i dont worship ANYBODY. DBTs are not easy to implement properly and i seriously doubt that you do them for all purchases. just finding willing participants, the proper equipment and then carrying out the right procedures is a monumental task.

i have a fair amount of experience at this hobby and i have learned much by keeping my mouth shut and listening. i have also learned a lot by listening for myself rather than relying on reviewers to tell me what to buy.

if and when i get around to trying the fuses, i will share my findings. i wont however, drum on people to use them or not to use them.

[JohnMichael]

i dont particularly care whether YOU want to use a product or not. IF i try a wire (ferinstance) or a fuse, and i hear a difference that i like, i will probably use it provided it isnt prohibitively priced. i wont be seeking your approval of such. nor will i heed any of your caveats.

i respect floyd toole but i dont worship ANYBODY. DBTs are not easy to implement properly and i seriously doubt that you do them for all purchases. just finding willing participants, the proper equipment and then carrying out the right procedures is a monumental task.

i have a fair amount of experience at this hobby and i have learned much by keeping my mouth shut and listening. i have also learned a lot by listening for myself rather than relying on reviewers to tell me what to buy.

if and when i get around to trying the fuses, i will share my findings. i wont however, drum on people to use them or not to use them.

Great post Tommy, I like your thinking. Same goes for E-Stat and Emaidel. Anything that makes my listening more enjoyable I am all for regardless of science. Music is an art and to enjoy art does not require science as much as contributions from another artist. Many designing audio today I consider an artist. Let us DBT that Monet.

[JoeE SP9]

This is the only hobby I'm aware of that has a large number of sourpuss spoilsports. They spend an enormous amount of time telling others what they can and can't hear. They also feel they have a right to play traffic cop with someone elses wallet. Their standard answer to anything they don't approve of is disbelief, derision and outright insults. They almost never try any of the tweaks or gadgets they disapprove of. They just loudly call for DBT's while simultaneously admonishing others for spending their own money. Investigating any tweak on their own is never attempted.

Personally I'd be more apt to listen to someone who actually tried a tweak and reported they heard no difference. Telling me and others we are not hearing what we report without trying it yourself gives you no credibility.

Hey, all you spoilsport sourpusses, put a sock in it. If you have nothing productive to add to a discussion keep your fingers to yourself.

[JohnMichael]

Yes what JoeE SP9 has said.

[3db]

Well you know the old expression, a fool and his money is easily parted. Instead of waisting money on such nonsense, put into the the upgrade of gear or room acoustics. The single biggest player in sound next to the speakers are room acoustics. Treating the room would have a much further reaching affect.

If I could do a proper DBT test I would. Last year at this time I exchanged out a Technics DX940 receiever for a Yamaha RX-V1800 and I thought I heard tighter bass and a more open soundstage. But the problem is, it took me 3 hours to exchange the receivers and any audio memory accurcay is shot in an around the 2 minute mark. What I would have loved was to be able to the DBT test to see if I actually heard a difference or just perceived to hear one. The only difference I do notice without a DBT test is that the Yamaha can keep on going in power levels where the Technics was running out of gas. This was observed through a Radio Shack SPL meter and I took note of the readings. Other than that, I don't trust my hearing becuase I also hear with my eyes and the RX-V1800 is beautiful sight in my mind.

[poppachubby]

Funny to hear Technics, Yamaha and Radio Shack in the same paragraph as DBT.

[3db]

Funny to hear Technics, Yamaha and Radio Shack in the same paragraph as DBT.

And??

[poppachubby]

Hahaha, just ribbing you man. Frankly, I see both sides of the coin in this debate. I think you could have made your point without pulling out the DBT. Nothing gets people rolling their eyes quicker than hearing about DBT, mostly for the reason that, it ain't gonna happen.

But anyhow, I think the bottom line is to each their own and everything in the audio world must be taken with a grain of proverbial salt, until tested out by one's own ears. Personally I wouldn't have a need for these fuses, or the desire. But when guys like E-Stat and Tommy talk, I listen. Your talkin years of experience. I am 32 years old, I would rather have these experienced guys help lead me to the cliff, from that vantage I can decide if a jump is in order.

[emaidel]

If I buy something - a Hi-Fi Tuning Fuse , or the Achromat turntable mat, or Vibrapods and Vibracones for example - install them and hear a difference, I post my findings here for others to read. First, I hope they enjoy reading what I have to say, and second, I hope they try these items out for themselves. This is precisely the case here with myself and EStat. Each of us bought several of these fuses, installed them in various pieces of equipment in our respective audio systems, and genuinely liked the differences we heard, all of which were directly attributed to the use of the Hi-Fi Tuning Fuses. Having Stereophile on our sides praising the fuses as a "Recommended Component" adds credibility to our observations. Neither of us partook of a DBT, but had one been available to us, I'm sure each of us would gladly have participated. And, I seriously believe, the DBT would only have further substantiated our personal findings. But, such a DBT isn't now, or likely ever will be, available to us. So, we trust our ears - you know, those things we all use to evaluated the audio equipment we've all been purchasing for most of our lifetimes.

I can give a very good example of how a DBT - and a carefully controlled and designed one at that - provided genuinely false results. During the late 70's, ESS was conducting a series of DBT's in college campuses across the country as part of their advertising campaign, "ESS Wins on Campus." The test was incredibly well put together and monitored.

Two inexpensive ESS speakers (the Performance Series One and Five) were compared to about 7 or 8 other speakers from other known manufacturers, all of which were a good deal more expensive than the ESS models. An acoustically inert screen was placed in front of these speakers to obscure them so that listeners couldn't see what they were listening to. Levels were all carefully set via a noise generator so that the "louder is better" syndrome couldn't affect the results. Bose 901's were provided with the appropriate reflecting surfaces so as not to mar their performance in the test. And, for the "double" part of the test, the numbers assigned to the speakers during the comparisons were routinely scrambled so that no particular bias could be formed. Specifically, if speaker "5" were preferred to speaker "3" in a given comparison, the next time the listeners were told that speaker "5" was playing, it was a different speaker.

The tests ran most of the day with many different sessions, each including about 20 or so students. The tests were conducted over a period of about a week, and at the end, the results were tabulated. Based on these DBT's, a stunning "conclusion" was made: the ESS PS-1 (at a list of $149.95) was repeatedly preferred by a majority of the listeners by a factor of greater than 3 to 1 to the far more expensive Bose 901. The PS-1 was also chosen far more often than a JBL L-40, as well as anythng used from AR, Infinity and Cerwin Vega. While the ESS PS-1 was chosen over all of these speakers, the margin was the greatest in comparing it to the Bose 901.

Lawsuit-happy Amar Bose desperately threatened to sue ESS, claiming fraud, but after carefully examining the testing procedure, he had to back down as there was nothing fraudulent about how it was designed and administered. So, did this actually "prove" that the ESS PS-1 was a better speaker than all the others? Of course it didn't, but it surely proved the fallacy of a DBT, no matter how carefully designed and administered it was.

[poppachubby]

If I buy something - a Hi-Fi Tuning Fuse , or the Achromat turntable mat, or Vibrapods and Vibracones for example - install them and hear a difference, I post my findings here for others to read. First, I hope they enjoy reading what I have to say, and second, I hope they try these items out for themselves. .

Keep em coming, I for one enjoy your findings. My Vibrapods should arrive any day. Did you see my DIY isolation feet? They work really well and will be a great reference for me when checking out the VP's.

Isolation Feet for Turntable

This all stemmed from your post and findings. It's really quite simple. If I find something of interest, with credible findings, I will order it up or make it myself. Seems arguiing on AR gets me no closer to actually hearing anything for myself. As for these fuses, I have no interest.

Perhaps for kicks, I'll have my wife conduct a DBT!! Wouldn't that be a hoot?!?

[E-Stat]

So, did this actually "prove" that the ESS PS-1 was a better speaker than all the others? Of course it didn't, but it surely proved the fallacy of a DBT, no matter how carefully designed and administered it was.

The irony is that most novice listeners would most likely NOT prefer the very finest and highest resolution systems because they do not initially sound *impressive*. There is no booming bass nor soaring highs. You hear the extended voice of a bell tree only when it is played - not as a false brightness imparted to everything. And whose harmonics seem to linger forever in their sweet decay...

I truly wish others could share in my fortune in having thirty plus years of exposure to the incredible systems of two audio reviewer friends. These two gentlemen have been my mentors since I was 19 or so and have enlightened me in countless ways as to what audio systems are capable of achieving. One system in particular is downright spooky in its ability to make the walls disappear and place you in a large acoustical space where you can hear everything on the recording. It has been in this environment where I learned my love for electrostatic speakers, tube amps and various tweaks that only serve to improve the musical experience.

rw

[poppachubby]

The irony is that most novice listeners would most likely NOT prefer the very finest and highest resolution systems because they do not initially sound *impressive*. There is no booming bass nor soaring highs. You hear the extended voice of a bell tree only when it is played - not as a false brightness imparted to everything. And whose harmonics seem to linger forever in their sweet decay...

I truly wish others could share in my fortune in having thirty plus years of exposure to the incredible systems of two audio reviewer friends. These two gentlemen have been my mentors since I was 19 or so and have enlightened me in countless ways as to what audio systems are capable of achieving. One system in particular is downright spooky in its ability to make the walls disappear and place you in a large acoustical space where you can hear everything on the recording. It has been in this environment where I learned my love for electrostatic speakers, tube amps and various tweaks that only serve to improve the musical experience.

rw

E-Stat, I find you make alot of references to neutral and uncolored. I'm not sure I fully understand what you are saying, however, as a musician I can't help but be afraid of those specific terms.

If there's one thing I know I love, it's natural sound reproduction. It's obviously less fatiguing and to me, the closest thing to being in a room with a band. Any overly boosted frequencies, particularily bass, will ruin a nice natural sound. This is why I love my AKG K240S cans, it's a wonderful, natural sound.

When you're speaking of neutral, uncolored, etc, is this what you're referring to?

[3db]

If I buy something - a Hi-Fi Tuning Fuse , or the Achromat turntable mat, or Vibrapods and Vibracones for example - install them and hear a difference, I post my findings here for others to read. First, I hope they enjoy reading what I have to say, and second, I hope they try these items out for themselves. This is precisely the case here with myself and EStat. Each of us bought several of these fuses, installed them in various pieces of equipment in our respective audio systems, and genuinely liked the differences we heard, all of which were directly attributed to the use of the Hi-Fi Tuning Fuses. Having Stereophile on our sides praising the fuses as a "Recommended Component" adds credibility to our observations. Neither of us partook of a DBT, but had one been available to us, I'm sure each of us would gladly have participated. And, I seriously believe, the DBT would only have further substantiated our personal findings. But, such a DBT isn't now, or likely ever will be, available to us. So, we trust our ears - you know, those things we all use to evaluated the audio equipment we've all been purchasing for most of our lifetimes.

I can give a very good example of how a DBT - and a carefully controlled and designed one at that - provided genuinely false results. During the late 70's, ESS was conducting a series of DBT's in college campuses across the country as part of their advertising campaign, "ESS Wins on Campus." The test was incredibly well put together and monitored.

Two inexpensive ESS speakers (the Performance Series One and Five) were compared to about 7 or 8 other speakers from other known manufacturers, all of which were a good deal more expensive than the ESS models. An acoustically inert screen was placed in front of these speakers to obscure them so that listeners couldn't see what they were listening to. Levels were all carefully set via a noise generator so that the "louder is better" syndrome couldn't affect the results. Bose 901's were provided with the appropriate reflecting surfaces so as not to mar their performance in the test. And, for the "double" part of the test, the numbers assigned to the speakers during the comparisons were routinely scrambled so that no particular bias could be formed. Specifically, if speaker "5" were preferred to speaker "3" in a given comparison, the next time the listeners were told that speaker "5" was playing, it was a different speaker.

The tests ran most of the day with many different sessions, each including about 20 or so students. The tests were conducted over a period of about a week, and at the end, the results were tabulated. Based on these DBT's, a stunning "conclusion" was made: the ESS PS-1 (at a list of $149.95) was repeatedly preferred by a majority of the listeners by a factor of greater than 3 to 1 to the far more expensive Bose 901. The PS-1 was also chosen far more often than a JBL L-40, as well as anythng used from AR, Infinity and Cerwin Vega. While the ESS PS-1 was chosen over all of these speakers, the margin was the greatest in comparing it to the Bose 901.

Lawsuit-happy Amar Bose desperately threatened to sue ESS, claiming fraud, but after carefully examining the testing procedure, he had to back down as there was nothing fraudulent about how it was designed and administered. So, did this actually "prove" that the ESS PS-1 was a better speaker than all the others? Of course it didn't, but it surely proved the fallacy of a DBT, no matter how carefully designed and administered it was.

It shows preferences and I can understand that outcome. Different speakers sound differently. Different speaker manufactures, different drivers, diffwerent cabinet resonanances...just way too many variables. But that is an all together different testing than a fuse in and out of the circuit. There, the only variable is the fuse. With test you described, there are an ifinite number of variables. If the ESS speaker sounds better, what does that tell you?

[3db]

If I buy something - a Hi-Fi Tuning Fuse , or the Achromat turntable mat, or Vibrapods and Vibracones for example - install them and hear a difference, I post my findings here for others to read. First, I hope they enjoy reading what I have to say, and second, I hope they try these items out for themselves. This is precisely the case here with myself and EStat. Each of us bought several of these fuses, installed them in various pieces of equipment in our respective audio systems, and genuinely liked the differences we heard, all of which were directly attributed to the use of the Hi-Fi Tuning Fuses. Having Stereophile on our sides praising the fuses as a "Recommended Component" adds credibility to our observations. Neither of us partook of a DBT, but had one been available to us, I'm sure each of us would gladly have participated. And, I seriously believe, the DBT would only have further substantiated our personal findings. But, such a DBT isn't now, or likely ever will be, available to us. So, we trust our ears - you know, those things we all use to evaluated the audio equipment we've all been purchasing for most of our lifetimes.

I can give a very good example of how a DBT - and a carefully controlled and designed one at that - provided genuinely false results. During the late 70's, ESS was conducting a series of DBT's in college campuses across the country as part of their advertising campaign, "ESS Wins on Campus." The test was incredibly well put together and monitored.

Two inexpensive ESS speakers (the Performance Series One and Five) were compared to about 7 or 8 other speakers from other known manufacturers, all of which were a good deal more expensive than the ESS models. An acoustically inert screen was placed in front of these speakers to obscure them so that listeners couldn't see what they were listening to. Levels were all carefully set via a noise generator so that the "louder is better" syndrome couldn't affect the results. Bose 901's were provided with the appropriate reflecting surfaces so as not to mar their performance in the test. And, for the "double" part of the test, the numbers assigned to the speakers during the comparisons were routinely scrambled so that no particular bias could be formed. Specifically, if speaker "5" were preferred to speaker "3" in a given comparison, the next time the listeners were told that speaker "5" was playing, it was a different speaker.

The tests ran most of the day with many different sessions, each including about 20 or so students. The tests were conducted over a period of about a week, and at the end, the results were tabulated. Based on these DBT's, a stunning "conclusion" was made: the ESS PS-1 (at a list of $149.95) was repeatedly preferred by a majority of the listeners by a factor of greater than 3 to 1 to the far more expensive Bose 901. The PS-1 was also chosen far more often than a JBL L-40, as well as anythng used from AR, Infinity and Cerwin Vega. While the ESS PS-1 was chosen over all of these speakers, the margin was the greatest in comparing it to the Bose 901.

Lawsuit-happy Amar Bose desperately threatened to sue ESS, claiming fraud, but after carefully examining the testing procedure, he had to back down as there was nothing fraudulent about how it was designed and administered. So, did this actually "prove" that the ESS PS-1 was a better speaker than all the others? Of course it didn't, but it surely proved the fallacy of a DBT, no matter how carefully designed and administered it was.

BTW, thankyou for keeping the discussion clean. I do appreciate this.

[Feanor]

....

The tests ran most of the day with many different sessions, each including about 20 or so students. The tests were conducted over a period of about a week, and at the end, the results were tabulated. Based on these DBT's, a stunning "conclusion" was made: the ESS PS-1 (at a list of $149.95) was repeatedly preferred by a majority of the listeners by a factor of greater than 3 to 1 to the far more expensive Bose 901. The PS-1 was also chosen far more often than a JBL L-40, as well as anythng used from AR, Infinity and Cerwin Vega. While the ESS PS-1 was chosen over all of these speakers, the margin was the greatest in comparing it to the Bose 901.

Lawsuit-happy Amar Bose desperately threatened to sue ESS, claiming fraud, but after carefully examining the testing procedure, he had to back down as there was nothing fraudulent about how it was designed and administered. So, did this actually "prove" that the ESS PS-1 was a better speaker than all the others? Of course it didn't, but it surely proved the fallacy of a DBT, no matter how carefully designed and administered it was.

I'm confused, Emaidel. What are you saying? Did I miss paragraph or something? Sounds to me that you're saying the ESS PS-1 were "better" only because people preferred them, but somehow they weren't better because they were up against the likes of AR, et al..

Also, did I construe from E-Stat's comments that he attributes this to "inexperienced" listeners?

If I correctly recall, Flloyd Toole demonstrated in his well-controlled experiments is that inexperience and experienced listeners both preferred the same qualities in a speaker, and select the same speakers as best, (albeit the experienced users came to their conclusions more quickly).

[E-Stat]

When you're speaking of neutral, uncolored, etc, is this what you're referring to?

When you go to a typical big box retailer (Best Buy, Fry's, etc), what kind of sound do you hear? Tipped up bass and treble. Especially the upper bass. Boom. Sizzle. "Like, totally kewl, dood". When you see a "smiley face" profile on an equalizer. That is anything but neutral. That is why some folks tend to favor mid-bass rich speakers like JBLs and the like. Neutral bass never sounds "heavy" or "bloated". It is sensed as much as heard. The same is true of the opposite extreme. Some folks (like one in this thread) perceive more treble to be better treble or "improved clarity". Such is truly not the case. Truly neutral systems sound almost dark until real HF content comes along. Where it emerges from a totally black background and shows its beauty. Speaker manufacturers have been playing against these perceptions for years. The extremely popular JBL L-100 (or pro 4310) exhibited carefully placed peaks around 55 hz and 5 khz as graphed here by JBL. Fun for good 'ol rock n roll? Sure. Neutral? Not!

My forest of bass traps in the main listening room helps to render flat bass response (+/- 1.5 db from 25 hz to 200 hz).

rw

[E-Stat]

If I correctly recall, Flloyd Toole demonstrated in his well-controlled experiments is that inexperience and experienced listeners both preferred the same qualities in a speaker, and select the same speakers as best, (albeit the experienced users came to their conclusions more quickly).

Think about that conclusion for a moment. Apply what you know about the way the speaker market has been for the past thirty years or so and ask yourself whether or not the market supports or refutes that assertion. Can you think of any other audio component where there is greater variety in the way they perform? Does the guy who prefers an Altec A-7 or Klipsch Cornwall look for the same qualities as one who prefers a Magico Mini or a Maggie? What do you think?

...did I construe from E-Stat's comments that he attributes this to "inexperienced" listeners?

Using typical short term audio cowboy comparisons, yes. ESS speakers were clearly in the "West Coast" sound category and not known for their neutrality.

rw

[poppachubby]

When you go to a typical big box retailer (Best Buy, Fry's, etc), what kind of sound do you hear? Tipped up bass and treble. Especially the upper bass. Boom. Sizzle. "Like, totally kewl, dood". When you see a "smiley face" profile on an equalizer. That is anything but neutral. That is why some folks tend to favor mid-bass rich speakers like JBLs and the like. Neutral bass never sounds "heavy" or "bloated". It is sensed as much as heard. The same is true of the opposite extreme. Some folks (like one in this thread) perceive more treble to be better treble or "improved clarity". Such is truly not the case. Truly neutral systems sound almost dark until real HF content comes along. Where it emerges from a totally black background and shows its beauty. Speaker manufacturers have been playing against these perceptions for years. The extremely popular JBL L-100 (or pro 4310) exhibited carefully placed peaks around 55 hz and 5 khz as graphed here by JBL. Fun for good 'ol rock n roll? Sure. Neutral? Not!

My forest of bass traps in the main listening room helps to render flat bass response (+/- 1.5 db from 25 hz to 200 hz).

rw

My "rock n roll smile" is extremely subtle and right now, has zero settings for the treble. Personally, I find bass capability a way to dial in a nice warm tone. Nothing excessive, but boosted to add warmth to what I'm hearing. I am also partial to bass as I am a bass guitar player.

That said, I enjoy presence but not boom. Right now, I am doing alot of my listening through my computer's card into my dac. I am using a 2.1 concept by way of an RCA A/V receiver, 2 JBL front sattelites and a KLH sub. I am 50/50 headphones to speakers. This set up serves practical purposes, 1) listening while on the comp and 2) low levels/headphones because kids are asleep.

I am REALLY enjoying this arrangement, so I plugged in my TT as well. I find I am able to dial in a really nice, "natural" sound that's super fun at the same time.

What's the point to all of this blathering? I am curious what you feel the key component is to gaining natural sound. This question is loaded, so how about, do you rely more on your amp, source or speakers to achieve your goal?

[3db]

Funny to hear Technics, Yamaha and Radio Shack in the same paragraph as DBT.

Actually, the Rat Shack SPL meter has a good rep. There are a few other Rat Shack products of yester year that also have a good rep as well.

[poppachubby]

Actually, the Rat Shack SPL meter has a good rep. There are a few other Rat Shack products of yester year that also have a good rep as well.

I am presently using a Realistic EQ which was originally sold by "Rat-Shack". No shame here...

[Feanor]

Think about that conclusion for a moment. Apply what you know about the way the speaker market has been for the past thirty years or so and ask yourself whether or not the market supports or refutes that assertion. Can you think of any other audio component where there is greater variety in the way they perform? Does the guy who prefers an Altec A-7 or Klipsch Cornwall look for the same qualities as one who prefers a Magico Mini or a Maggie? What do you think?


Using typical short term audio cowboy comparisons, yes. ESS speakers were clearly in the "West Coast" sound category and not known for their neutrality.

rw

Well, ESS' testing is more suspect than Toole's maybe, on account of likely "audio cowboy" aspect. (I remember thinking for a while that JBLs' West Coast sound as were great, however that interval lasted only a few weeks for me.)

What I'm really getting at is that you can't just dismiss scientifically sound, empiracal results on subjective bases. You have to find a flaw in the design or in the actual measurement. Then you have to prove that you get different results if these flaws are corrected.

Toole's results are empirical and scientifically sound. If you want to refute them, you need to demonstate that what Toole tests measure things less that the sum of everything important in a speaker. OK, perhaps you can do that.

Toole's testing basically relied on monopolar speakers that worked OK at a certain distance from surrounding boundaries, etc. that applied during the testing. I believe it was you that pointed out that this precludes dipole planar speakers for example, or say, Audio Notes that have unusual placement requirements. Fine, but then you have to conduct tests that disprove his conclusions when dipole speakers are provided for.

Of course it's true for any DBT, (or SBT), that the results are only valid under the test conditions that prevail.

[emaidel]

I'm confused, Emaidel. What are you saying? Did I miss paragraph or something? Sounds to me that you're saying the ESS PS-1 were "better" only because people preferred them, but somehow they weren't better because they were up against the likes of AR, et al..

What I was trying to illustrate was that by using a carefully controlled and administered DBT to provide legitimate results as to which speaker sounds better than another often generates bizarre findings, and because of this, a DBT is hardly the most appropriate, or accurate, device to determine which product is/sounds better than another. The ESS PS-1 was hardly an "accurate reproducer," nor was it even a very good speaker. It had the characteristically dipped middle, boomy bottom and sizzling high end that lots of people liked (not me) at the time, and typically sold at a discount for only $99.95.. That it was selected by a margin of more than 3 to 1 over the much, much better (but still pretty awful, and horribly overpriced) Bose 901 was used by ESS to promote the "proof" that it was the better speaker, based on the scientifcally culled results of the DBT. The truth of the matter was something else altogether.

And so, it is my belief that a DBT to prove whether or not the Hi-Fi Tuning fuse works or doesn't, won't necessarily prove anything. I believe they work, EStat believes they do, and so does Stereophile. That's good enough for me.