In The Heat of The Night

[JohnMichael]

So is that like child abuse? The more you've experienced it the less likely you are to practice it?

On the other hand, I don't doubt that the more you've experienced it, the more sensitized you become.

I recently watched Spike Lee's Malcolm X, a pretty good movie: 3.5/5* In it we see Elijah Muhammad and his followers, including a younger Malcolm X. saying things about whites that were every bit as untrue, irrational, and hateful as anything whites might have though of blacks. Malcolm X himself reformed to his credit, ironically some might say, after going to Mecca and experiencing a truer variety of Islam than what he got from Elijah Muhammad. But Louis Farrakhan and his crew are scarcely improved.

White racism no doubt caused black racism, but the bad example of former certainly didn't prevent the latter.

An interesting aspect of child abuse is that some become abusers and some become victims. To fully discuss child abuse and it's very long term side effects we would need an entire thread.

As far as the anger and hatred of whites I think people tend to hate their oppressors. When you are denied equal rights and forced to live in poverty due to prejudice regarding employment I can understand the anger. If one race oppresses another I do not think of the oppressed as prejudice but rightfully angry.

[Feanor]

As far as the anger and hatred of whites I think people tend to hate their oppressors. When you are denied equal rights and forced to live in poverty due to prejudice regarding employment I can understand the anger. If one race oppresses another I do not think of the oppressed as prejudice but rightfully angry.

Righteous anger is one thing, but to wish everyone of the race of your oppressors to be punished regardless of personal guilt, to slander them, to aggrandize your own race with stories that aren't true, that IS prejudice. No other word for it. One set of bigotry doesn't cancel the other set.

My point about Malcolm X was that Elijah Muhammed and his other followers (including the less mature Malcolm X) were preaching hateful and untrue anti-white bigotry. That might be understandable but it isn't justifiable, (if I may draw that distinction).

Sir T implied earlier that if your racism is in response to my racism directed at me, it isn't so bad; (apology if I misunderstood him). But that is wrong. Whereas it might be understandable, your racism in response to my racism won't reform my racism: it will only make it worse.

[Worf101]

I'm just catching up. I just drove 8 hours straight from P'burgh. My mind is way too fried to tackle this whole thread. Being older... and wiser (ah hopes), I've learned to pick my battles.... I will say that a month ago I was checking into a Marriott, I'm a rewards member, and they have a special desk and express check-in for us. I'm in the middle of checking in and this older white man just pushes in-front of me to discuss the charges on his bill.

The old me would've raised a ruckus... but the older me waited to see what the woman behind the counter did... the pulled him up short and he seemed surprised. She said he's have to wait till she was done with me. He then turned and glared at me... I replied...

"Don't blame me I'm obviously invisible to you."

He hurrumphed and stalked away... The lady started to apologize but I said it wasn't her fault... cause it wasn't. She was younger and wasn't used to that kind of old school privilege... But as mad/sad as I was I took heart in her reaction... and all the simply marvelous things that have changed/happened in this country in my lifetime. In the midst of terriblet times and horrid things... there are ALWAYS rays of hope and just plain good people.

Worf

[Feanor]

I'm just catching up. I just drove 8 hours straight from P'burgh. My mind is way too fried to tackle this whole thread. Being older... and wiser (ah hopes), I've learned to pick my battles.... I will say that a month ago I was checking into a Marriott, I'm a rewards member, and they have a special desk and express check-in for us. I'm in the middle of checking in and this older white man just pushes in-front of me to discuss the charges on his bill.

The old me would've raised a ruckus... but the older me waited to see what the woman behind the counter did... the pulled him up short and he seemed surprised. She said he's have to wait till she was done with me. He then turned and glared at me... I replied...

"Don't blame me I'm obviously invisible to you."

He hurrumphed and stalked away... The lady started to apologize but I said it wasn't her fault... cause it wasn't. She was younger and wasn't used to that kind of old school privilege... But as mad/sad as I was I took heart in her reaction... and all the simply marvelous things that have changed/happened in this country in my lifetime. In the midst of terriblet times and horrid things... there are ALWAYS rays of hope and just plain good people.

Worf

Sad, but trust me on this: plenty of those "older white men" are rude to white men too.

[Auricauricle]

And then there are those who are just plain dumb.

[Mr Peabody]

here's a relevant read: My son has been suspended five times. He’s 3. - The Washington Post

[recoveryone]

Interesting read Peabody, and adds soild info to what many parents/families of color have suspected all along. Many studies have shown the large gap in discipline among students, especially male blacks. Which has been directly connected to the large number of male blacks being incarcerate.

And this devisive attiude even carries over into the home, where a child is told they will never amount to anything because of what appears to be a lack of control at school. at one point of their lives (mostly middle school age) they began to choose the path that has been told to them over the years. Between 8-10th grade most will drop out of school or be so far behind that they would not have much of a chance to graduate. Or worst, once becoming aware of being placed in special needs/special education classes feel the personal embarrassment knowning that they are not really in need of that status.

[Mr Peabody]

None of us realized how timely the discussion that took place here would become.

[recoveryone]

I have only heard a few sound bites, but would like to get more of the details.

[Sir Terrence the Terrible]

If one really wants to understand why Black folks are so angry at white, look up "Black in America" on Netflix with Dr. Henry Louis Gates(a brilliant man I might add). There are six episodes that break slavery and racism down in a time based linear fashion that I have never experienced while I was in school(my school didn't talk about slavery much, probably because the Catholic Church turned a blind eye to it). I cried, got angry, felt hope and despair, but ultimately had my eyes opened wide.

Feanor, I know you don't agree with this, but that is probably because you have not had to deal with this personally. After watching this series, I just cannot agree with you on this point. Blacks have a right to be angry as hell at the way they have been treated in this country. Put of these shoes and hat if you can. Just imagine being sold(by your own people I might add, who thought is was just commerce and business as usual), brought to a foreign country, stripped of your culture, given a new name. You are enslaved on a plantation, have a family, then they are sold off splitting up the family. You are treated in a profoundly harsh way, beat up, your women raped, and when they have kids, they are sold away as well. Then you are freed, you go off to war because you are promised freedom, and when you come back from war, you don't get your freedom.

A decree is signed giving you your freedom, but since you have never been free, you don't quite know how to adjust. When you finally adjust to your freedom, you are told you cannot mingle with whites in any venue, including the one you work in. You cannot choose the job you want(there are many jobs you cannot even get), you cannot choose where you want to live, or don't have many choices at all. You are free(sort of), but still poor, still not equal, and still in bad economic condition. Hell, you can't even vote. Every time you figure out the system works, the powers that be change the rules so you end up in the same condition as you were before. You can never gain any traction economically, and when you do, the rules change again and you lose your traction once again. Each time you do well as a race, the rules change, and you lose everything over and over and over again - for nearly 500 years. You should be mad as hell about this, and anyone that says you should not, probably is the one making the rules. Then the civil right era comes and there is new hope, but that hope is dashed because some 50 years later, the majority of your race is still poor, still does not have equal right, and your life means so little to so many(the senseless killing and incarceration of young black males). If you are not mad about this, then you have no feelings or emotion at all.

When your racism is a cruel and heartless as racism has been to Latino's, Indians, and Blacks in this country, you shouldn't just be mad, you should be mad as hell. However, what you do with that anger is very important. Do you just fight and hate back? Nope. You learn the game, and you play it hard. A few minorities have learned this, and done well. Unfortunately so many have not, and have given up hope which in my opinion is understandable(they been here before and not gotten ahead), but tragic at the same time.

Racism used to be a state of mind, but no in the US it is institutionalize and embedded in the American culture. I have said this before, and I will say it again. Racism will not go away until the baby boomers die out, and there is so much racial intertwining that nobody will be able to tell what race another is(we are already headed in this direction).

Lastly, and oddly enough - I made a bet with a few of my friends. I challenged them to take a DNA test, so they know exactly what their racial make up is. My white friends didn't want to participate, but my Black, Latino, and South Asian friend jumped at the bet willingly. Peer pressure finally got my white friends in the game, so we are waiting to see the results. Since I have done this before, I pretty much know my outcome. However, when I did this before, some people were VERY surprised at what their DNA test results were - almost to the point of disbelief and agony.

Here is just a little read, and just a crack in the door on Minority anger with the powers that be.

Reconstruction Era - Wikipedia, the free encyclopedia

[Mr Peabody]

What happened in the past is a disgrace but should not be used as an excuse for any minority today. No one today is/was a slave. As one speaker from the NAACP was saying minorities need to take advantage of education, take pride in themselves, get involved, vote, etc.

Racial Profiling is real as in the recent example of Barney's who had to admit they were guilty of it, and, something to be upset about. Many here are upset by racial profiling of authorities who took the oath to protect and serve. This is also a disgrace, as well the link I posted above, and it shows society hasn't come as far as we thought. This recent killing here and the one just a week or so in NYC are prime example of authorities gone too far and brought things to the boiling point. Justice is supposed to be fair and balanced, now those in charge have to decide whether they'll step up to the plate and effect real change and hold violators of rights responsible. This type of distrust will be virtually impossible to erase.

I mentioned above when I moved here from Atlanta it was like going back in time regarding race, it was interesting to hear a guest on MSMBC mention that St. Louis is still one of the most segregated cities in the country. Not sure how that bares out in Sir T's South as the villain theory. Although racism is every where.unfortunately, I just don't think we can stereotype one region of the country vs another.

[JohnMichael]

First off human trafficking is still happening today so slavery does exist. For years prejudice held many people back so they were not able to work to their abilities. To me that is a forced situation. Forcibly kept in poverty to me is a form of slavery. I heard a white male in my care mention when President Obama was elected that he thought they could only cut grass or haul trash. Look at the discrepancy in employment to know prejudice is still keeping minorities down.

I remember one day I was shocked while in my local audio shop. Three young white men were crowded back in the car audio displays. They went totally unobserved by the staff. Three young black men walked in and the salesmen stood up and watched them until I called them out for it. They did not realize their own bias.

I think some stereotypes are so deep seated and believed that people react to them. They may claim a lack of prejudice but their actions show otherwise. Keeping people in poverty to me is a form of slavery.

[JohnMichael]

Nina Simone: Strange Fruit - Video Dailymotion

[Mr Peabody]

What you mentioned in the stereo store is what happened at Barney's, I'm assuming that is still considered racial profiling. Then there's the opposite like the incident Sir T described in the restaurant. You can only hope at some point society would progress.

[Feanor]

Feanor, I know you don't agree with this, but that is probably because you have not had to deal with this personally. After watching this series, I just cannot agree with you on this point. Blacks have a right to be angry as hell at the way they have been treated in this country. Put of these shoes and hat if you can. Just imagine being sold(by your own people I might add, who thought is was just commerce and business as usual), brought to a foreign country, stripped of your culture, given a new name. You are enslaved on a plantation, have a family, then they are sold off splitting up the family. You are treated in a profoundly harsh way, beat up, your women raped, and when they have kids, they are sold away as well. Then you are freed, you go off to war because you are promised freedom, and when you come back from war, you don't get your freedom.
...

Here is just a little read, and just a crack in the door on Minority anger with the powers that be.

Reconstruction Era - Wikipedia, the free encyclopedia

Sir T, I'm not sure what it is you think I disagree with.

Certainly slavery AND subsequent racism are abhorrent. It is disgusting the poor white antebellum farmers and workers in the South embraced racism that, in reality, served primarily wealthy plantation owners. It is disgusting that Southern white racists were allowed to impose the 'Jim Crow' laws after Reconstruction. It is disgusting the men of learning and stature such as Woodrow Wilson were racists and introduce segregation is areas like the Federal civil service where it hadn't been before. It is disgusting the lightly veiled racism one hears directed at Barrack Obama. And it's disgusting to hear lightly veiled racism today from the likes of Tea Party supporters.

Blacks have a right to be angry. But anger is one thing, hate and slander of whites is another. If neutrality is the goal, tolerance -- from both sides -- is a step along the way.

Lastly, and oddly enough - I made a bet with a few of my friends. I challenged them to take a DNA test, so they know exactly what their racial make up is. My white friends didn't want to participate, but my Black, Latino, and South Asian friend jumped at the bet willingly. Peer pressure finally got my white friends in the game, so we are waiting to see the results. Since I have done this before, I pretty much know my outcome. However, when I did this before, some people were VERY surprised at what their DNA test results were - almost to the point of disbelief and agony.

I would love to have my DNA tested, and having thinking of it for sometime. If you know organization that does this for a reasonable price, let me known. But note that I'm interest in a fine breakdown of male chromosome information; I'm reasonably certain that I am of 100% European descent, so what I would be looking for is a finer breakdown, e.g. Celtic vs. Scandinavian. It tends to cost good deal more to get the more detailed info.

~~
Speaking of minority anger, the minority today that needs to be a lot angrier is the poor -- whatever their race. I have an hunch that today the ongoing race issue tends to cloak for the even more widespread issue of poverty.

Actually a degree of majority anger is becoming apropos what with the weakening of the middle class, (of all races), in the USA and Western countries due to the increasing concentration of wealth AND political power in the hands of the <1%.

[JohnMichael]

What you mentioned in the stereo store is what happened at Barney's, I'm assuming that is still considered racial profiling. Then there's the opposite like the incident Sir T described in the restaurant. You can only hope at some point society would progress.

The difference is some store security, police departments and TSA agents have consciously decided to racially profile. The men at the store did not even realize their own bias. Once it was mentioned to them and they thought about it they realized their own prejudice.

[Sir Terrence the Terrible]

What happened in the past is a disgrace but should not be used as an excuse for any minority today. No one today is/was a slave. As one speaker from the NAACP was saying minorities need to take advantage of education, take pride in themselves, get involved, vote, etc.

If you know the history of Black folks in that past, they have done all of this, and still have the highest unemployment rates, lower pay, and still experience institutional racism. Only a person who has never experienced multi-generational racism would make this statement.

Racial Profiling is real as in the recent example of Barney's who had to admit they were guilty of it, and, something to be upset about. Many here are upset by racial profiling of authorities who took the oath to protect and serve. This is also a disgrace, as well the link I posted above, and it shows society hasn't come as far as we thought. This recent killing here and the one just a week or so in NYC are prime example of authorities gone too far and brought things to the boiling point. Justice is supposed to be fair and balanced, now those in charge have to decide whether they'll step up to the plate and effect real change and hold violators of rights responsible. This type of distrust will be virtually impossible to erase.

This comment is exactly why it is not enough to get an education, take pride in yourself, and get involved. When the racism is so profoundly deep and embedded in the prevailing culture, no matter what you do, it is not enough to get you equality. History has proven this over and over again.

I mentioned above when I moved here from Atlanta it was like going back in time regarding race, it was interesting to hear a guest on MSMBC mention that St. Louis is still one of the most segregated cities in the country. Not sure how that bares out in Sir T's South as the villain theory. Although racism is every where.unfortunately, I just don't think we can stereotype one region of the country vs another.

My perspective is not limited to the south. I have said many times the Midwest is just as bad as the south, and I personally could never live in either place. The very idea that I could achieve great success in my career, and still be looked at as a second class citizen based on the region I lived in is very unpalatable to me.

[Sir Terrence the Terrible]

Sir T, I'm not sure what it is you think I disagree with.

Certainly slavery AND subsequent racism are abhorrent. It is disgusting the poor white antebellum farmers and workers in the South embraced racism that, in reality, served primarily wealthy plantation owners. It is disgusting that Southern white racists were allowed to impose the 'Jim Crow' laws after Reconstruction. It is disgusting the men of learning and stature such as Woodrow Wilson were racists and introduce segregation is areas like the Federal civil service where it hadn't been before. It is disgusting the lightly veiled racism one hears directed at Barrack Obama. And it's disgusting to hear lightly veiled racism today from the likes of Tea Party supporters.

Blacks have a right to be angry. But anger is one thing, hate and slander of whites is another. If neutrality is the goal, tolerance -- from both sides -- is a step along the way.

I must ask Feanor, why is it okay for whites to hate and slander Blacks and Latinos, but it is not okay for Blacks and Latino's(out of sheer anger and frustration) to feel the same way? Your comments while intellectually correct are completely devoid of the emotional impact of nearly 500 years of inequality, nearly 500 years of frustration, and nearly 500 years of being looked at as an animal or second class citizen(which still exist today). Racism in America is is a extremely long term problem in this country, and let's face it, it was built on it from day one. Blacks and Latino's have been more than patient in trying to achieve equality in this country. Each and every time some level of success has been achieved, the powers that be change the rules, and minorities are back to square one. You can only take this kind of treatment for so long, and then you rebel(see riots in Miami, Los Angeles, Cincinnati, New York, and so on).

I would love to have my DNA tested, and having thinking of it for sometime. If you know organization that does this for a reasonable price, let me known. But note that I'm interest in a fine breakdown of male chromosome information; I'm reasonably certain that I am of 100% European descent, so what I would be looking for is a finer breakdown, e.g. Celtic vs. Scandinavian. It tends to cost good deal more to get the more detailed info.

Feanor, unfortunately I don't know of an organization that does this test for a reasonable price. I got my done as a classroom experiment in a race relations class at USC.

~~

Speaking of minority anger, the minority today that needs to be a lot angrier is the poor -- whatever their race. I have an hunch that today the ongoing race issue tends to cloak for the even more widespread issue of poverty.

Who is the poor in America? It is Blacks and Latino's and that is a fact.

Actually a degree of majority anger is becoming apropos what with the weakening of the middle class, (of all races), in the USA and Western countries due to the increasing concentration of wealth AND political power in the hands of the <1%.

We have seen this before during the depression. Anytime whites find themselves unemployed in wide numbers, they blame either Mexican immigration, or they tend to limit the financial possibilities of blacks via institutional racism. During the depression, one all black town in the south remained very prosperous(largely because they could not do business beyond their community) because the dollar in their community change hands WITHIN the community 36 times before going outside of the community. Whites became jealous of this success, and burn the town to the ground, and killed nearly all of its residents. While we are not killing people today in mass like back then, we are killing their spirit by economically limiting them.

[Mr Peabody]

Sir T's post shows what was edited by a mod from my original post, I wasn't notified of why my post was edited. The statements from NAACP & segregation were direct from televised programming and I don't see what I said being any different from other posts here on the topic.

[Mr Peabody]

1. Top story: The racially charged controversy over the Missouri shooting
St. Louis remains one of the most racially segregated metro areas in the U.S. "Residents, advocacy groups and onlookers far from St. Louis are focused on the details surrounding the fatal confrontation....But there's a much broader piece of context here that has to do with a legacy of racial segregation in U.S. cities, which has eroded more slowly in St. Louis than many other big metros. St. Louis remains among the most segregated metropolitan areas in the country. According to data from Brown University's US2010 Project, looking at the 50 metropolitan areas with the largest black populations as of 2010, St. Louis ranks as the 9th most segregated." Emily Badger in The Washington Post.

[JohnMichael]

Sir T's post shows what was edited by a mod from my original post, I wasn't notified of why my post was edited. The statements from NAACP & segregation were direct from televised programming and I don't see what I said being any different from other posts here on the topic.

None of your posts have been edited. What Sir T quoted I can read in your post. There is no trace of an edit.

[Feanor]

I must ask Feanor, why is it okay for whites to hate and slander Blacks and Latinos, but it is not okay for Blacks and Latino's(out of sheer anger and frustration) to feel the same way? Your comments while intellectually correct are completely devoid of the emotional impact of nearly 500 years of inequality, nearly 500 years of frustration, and nearly 500 years of being looked at as an animal or second class citizen(which still exist today). Racism in America is is a extremely long term problem in this country, and let's face it, it was built on it from day one. Blacks and Latino's have been more than patient in trying to achieve equality in this country. Each and every time some level of success has been achieved, the powers that be change the rules, and minorities are back to square one. You can only take this kind of treatment for so long, and then you rebel (see riots in Miami, Los Angeles, Cincinnati, New York, and so on).

Sir T, where did I ever say it is OK for whites to hate & slander Blacks and Latinos? Never. Please make no such insinuation.

However, I am saying is that reciprocal Black/Latino/Asian racism isn't acceptable either. The racial situation has been and will be for quite some time a problem in the USA and elsewhere. BUT the solution will NOT include "minorities" responding in kind to "majority" racism.

Where is the race "neutrality" you want? Do you expect that first white need to be "neutral" and only then that Blacks and Latinos will need to be "neutral"? It just can't work that way.

So sorry if it sounds unemotional but Yes, Blacks and Latinos are going to have to keep on being patient. Patience may certainly include protests but not reciprocal racism. Most of all "patience" will include Blacks & Latinos getting out a voting for candidates who cleary espouse their cause.

Who is the poor in America? It is Blacks and Latino's and that is a fact.

The statistics show that in absolute numbers there are actually more poor whites than poor Blacks or Latinos; (not surprising since they are still the "majority"). Are there higher proportions of Blacks and of Latinos in poverty higher? Yes, not doubt.

So -- as an intellectual exercise, Sir T -- would the poverty situation be made better by equalizing the proportions in poverty? Should this be brought about by decreasing only the numbers of Blacks and Latino poor OR by increasing the number of poor white people? OR would it actually be better to reduce poverty overall? (Consider that the most egregious white racism is among the poorest and least educated whites.)

We have seen this before during the depression. Anytime whites find themselves unemployed in wide numbers, they blame either Mexican immigration, or they tend to limit the financial possibilities of blacks via institutional racism. During the depression, one all black town in the south remained very prosperous(largely because they could not do business beyond their community) because the dollar in their community change hands WITHIN the community 36 times before going outside of the community. Whites became jealous of this success, and burn the town to the ground, and killed nearly all of its residents. While we are not killing people today in mass like back then, we are killing their spirit by economically limiting them.

Well I would say it's progress that massing killings aren't happening today.

As for US illegal immigration today, I say that it reflects a deep hypocrisy in American society and the American economy. (1) Many resent the illegal incursion of some many of a foreign language and culture who (seem) to threaten their jobs and way of life in general. They resent that they are powerless to prevent this. (2) There is a significant portion of businessmen and farmers who want the cheapest possible labor; they are quite content that their workers remain undocumented and therefore underpaid and not subject to regular employee protections.

[Sir Terrence the Terrible]

Sir T, where did I ever say it is OK for whites to hate & slander Blacks and Latinos? Never. Please make no such insinuation.

Whites don't need your OK, they have been hating and slandering blacks for nearly 500 years, and Latino's for nearly 300 years.

However, I am saying is that reciprocal Black/Latino/Asian racism isn't acceptable either. The racial situation has been and will be for quite some time a problem in the USA and elsewhere. BUT the solution will NOT include "minorities" responding in kind to "majority" racism.

What do you suggest minorities do stand there and just take it? Do we just unemotionally accept that some whites won't just push you away from the table, but may not allow you there in the first place? Blacks have been down this road already. I don't know any race or culture that has not hated their oppressor.

Where is the race "neutrality" you want? Do you expect that first white need to be "neutral" and only then that Blacks and Latinos will need to be "neutral"? It just can't work that way.

Yes I do, and it can work that way if whites allowed it. They created this problem, made it worse and worse over the centuries, and it is up to them to make the first step in cleaning it up. The problem is they won't make that step, because it would mean they would have to give up something. Whites are in no mood to give up anything to minorities, and you and I both know this.

So sorry if it sounds unemotional but Yes, Blacks and Latinos are going to have to keep on being patient. Patience may certainly include protests but not reciprocal racism. Most of all "patience" will include Blacks & Latinos getting out a voting for candidates who cleary espouse their cause.

This is just so naive it makes my head hurt. (Putting myself in the place of Blacks). How in the hell can you expect me to not hate the people that brought me here, changed my name, sold me and separated me from my family over and over again, call me ugly, won't let me practice my culture, hang me arbitrarily, call me 3/5 of a human, spit on me, let loose dogs on me and fire water cannons on me(when I do protest), deny me the right to vote, and when I could vote, would never let a candidate that support my cause see the light of day, discriminate against me with jobs, the court system, the and school system, and not to mention their killing young people who are not even armed(which sends a message your life is not worth anything)? Do you really expect me not to hate the people who would do this to me? Really???

Here is why I think you are missing the mark on this. Intellectually you are spot on. However the major component of this is not intellectual(whites KNOW racism is wrong), it is deeply emotional, and that is what you are missing here. The major component here is the emotional and psychological impact, not the intellectual. Most everything Whites have done to Blacks, Indians, Asians, and Latino's is to emotionally crippled them, keep them divided and fighting amongst each other(divide and conquer anyone), and tell them the need to be governed by Whites because they are incapable of governing themselves. It is the psychological warfare that does the most damage, and that is what is missing from your intellectual perspective.

The statistics show that in absolute numbers there are actually more poor whites than poor Blacks or Latinos; (not surprising since they are still the "majority"). Are there higher proportions of Blacks and of Latinos in poverty higher? Yes, not doubt.

So why is this? It is because whites have institutionally shut Blacks and Latino's out of the game. A poor white man can pull himself up by his bootstraps. He is white. Blacks and Latino's cannot pull themselves up by their bootstraps, because they don't have any boots. This is the way some whites want it, and why it has been this way for centuries.

So -- as an intellectual exercise, Sir T -- would the poverty situation be made better by equalizing the proportions in poverty? Should this be brought about by decreasing only the numbers of Blacks and Latino poor OR by increasing the number of poor white people? OR would it actually be better to reduce poverty overall? (Consider that the most egregious white racism is among the poorest and least educated whites.)

Feanor, poverty overall is another issue altogether with. Poverty didn't lead to racism, racism led to poverty. No white person has been pushed into poverty because of their skin color....minorities have. This is a smoke screen to me.

Well I would say it's progress that massing killings aren't happening today.

Progress? Perhaps. Or just a change in tactics. Mass killings were tried already, and they failed get the desired impact(keep folks in their place). Now there is a new game in town. Kill off young black males, or put them in jail which kills off their future economic opportunities. Make Blacks and Latino's invisible in the public eye. Fill all magazines with white faces, and tell minorities they are too ugly to sell magazines. Don't show 1,000 young Black males graduating from college on television, and don't report it. Throw out any resume that has a known Black name, they would not fit into our office culture. If a candidate shows up with dreadlocks, don't hire them; if does not fit into our office culture. Black women, no natural hair, it does not fit in with our office culture. These kinds of things emotionally break you down, and that is sorely missing out of your points. Today's racism is not in your face, it is a subtle emotional and psychological warfare designed to slowly break you down. It will if you let it.

As for US illegal immigration today, I say that it reflects a deep hypocrisy in American society and the American economy. (1) Many resent the illegal incursion of some many of a foreign language and culture who (seem) to threaten their jobs and way of life in general. They resent that they are powerless to prevent this. (2) There is a significant portion of businessmen and farmers who want the cheapest possible labor; they are quite content that their workers remain undocumented and therefore underpaid and not subject to regular employee protections.

I absolutely agree with you here! Use the cheap labor as long as you need them, and send them home when you don't. No benefits, and no chance to stay and obtain citizenship, and no chance for a better life.

On the flip side of the coin, many Mexicans would LOVE to come here and work for six months LEGALLY, and go home for six months. Many more don't want to live here because of the racism, but have no work or employment future at home. The Mexican government loves this, because so many send money back home to Mexico, and the Mexican government does not have to use any resources to care for the segment of the population.

On this subject, hypocrisy is everywhere.

[Feanor]

(Oh, boy ... here we go ...)

Where is the race "neutrality" you want? Do you expect that first white need to be "neutral" and only then that Blacks and Latinos will need to be "neutral"? It just can't work that way.

Yes I do, and it can work that way if whites allowed it. They created this problem, made it worse and worse over the centuries, and it is up to them to make the first step in cleaning it up. The problem is they won't make that step, because it would mean they would have to give up something. Whites are in no mood to give up anything to minorities, and you and I both know this.

If you believe that Black/Latino/whatever racism, (as opposed to mere anger, resentment), is an acceptable response to white racism, then racism is certainly here for the long haul.

Actually it's damned hypocritical on your part to call for "neutrality" from whites if you don't see the the need for reciprocal neutrality from Blacks, et al., in real-time. And it tends to make you look like racist around here.

Here is why I think you are missing the mark on this. Intellectually you are spot on. However the major component of this is not intellectual (whites KNOW racism is wrong), it is deeply emotional, and that is what you are missing here. The major component here is the emotional and psychological impact, not the intellectual. Most everything Whites have done to Blacks, Indians, Asians, and Latino's is to emotionally crippled them, keep them divided and fighting amongst each other (divide and conquer anyone), and tell them the need to be governed by Whites because they are incapable of governing themselves. It is the psychological warfare that does the most damage, and that is what is missing from your intellectual perspective.

Yes, true, damned true, at least historically. White racism arose during the amazingly rapid rise of Europe from a backwater in the 14th century to world dominance by the mid 19th century. Does the is make white racism unique, NO, other than its relatively recent origin and world span. Racism has always existed and still exists almost everywhere among people of all races.

The worldwide scourge of racism ISN'T going to be solve by whites alone giving it up. If you believe this you are wrong and in grave danger of being labelled a racist yourself.

Feanor, poverty overall is another issue altogether with. Poverty didn't lead to racism, racism led to poverty. No white person has been pushed into poverty because of their skin color....minorities have. This is a smoke screen to me.

Remove the fear & envy by alleviating poverty and racism looses most of its raison d'être. You've offered the explanation yourself: fear of loss of economic security is probably most common source of racism today among whites (and various others). But, (and apparently you agree), the second most common cause is envy by those who have less of those who have more.

Maybe I'm outa line here, but it seems me you, as a Latino, (black godmother, etc.), seem a bit of a whiner for a member of the 1%'er. (While my income is below the national median.)

On this subject, hypocrisy is everywhere.

So it seems.

[Sir Terrence the Terrible]

(Oh, boy ... here we go ...)

Yep, here we go.

If you believe that Black/Latino/whatever racism, (as opposed to mere anger, resentment), is an acceptable response to white racism, then racism is certainly here for the long haul.

This is not why it is here for the long haul. It is here for the long haul because whites cannot plainly see they are doing anything wrong, or that anything is wrong institutionally. How does one parse racism from anger and resentment? The response to racism IS anger and resentment.

Actually it's damned hypocritical on your part to call for "neutrality" from whites if you don't see the the need for reciprocal neutrality from Blacks, et al., in real-time. And it tends to make you look like racist around here.

Can you explain to me why the person with the boot on the neck has to proclaim neutrality when they didn't start this in the first place, and have no power to end it(or it would have been done already)? Blacks don't control any power in America. They are not oppressing whites, limiting their economic chances, calling whites ugly and unmarketable, or telling whites where they can live, or redlining them because they don't want to live next to them. And please Feanor, put your racist card back in your wallet. Anyone who actually knows me know that it is not possible for me to be racist against whites. I am part white.

Yes, true, damned true, at least historically. White racism arose during the amazingly rapid rise of Europe from a backwater in the 14th century to world dominance by the mid 19th century. Does the is make white racism unique, NO, other than its relatively recent origin and world span. Racism has always existed and still exists almost everywhere among people of all races.

No other race in history has enslaved a group of people based on race ALONE. It was always slavery as the spoils of war. This racism is unique in that is was born out of slavery, and even after slavery officially ended blacks were still slaves because of lack of economic oportunities. If I only have access to the lowest paying jobs, then I am still in slavery despite any decree.

The worldwide scourge of racism ISN'T going to be solve by whites alone giving it up. If you believe this you are wrong and in grave danger of being labelled a racist yourself.

This BS is just plain nonsense. What the hell can Blacks and Latino's do to whites? Not one damn thing except to say I don't like you because of how you have treated me and mine. What does a minorities do to proclaim neutrality, allow whites to continue kicking their asses? Give me a freakin break here. The people with all of the power have to give up some of that power PERIOD. The people with no power have nothing to give here.

Remove the fear & envy by alleviating poverty and racism looses most of its raison d'être. You've offered the explanation yourself: fear of loss of economic security is probably most common source of racism today among whites (and various others). But, (and apparently you agree), the second most common cause is envy by those who have less of those who have more.

It is not envy, because blacks had achieved a high level of success in the history of this country(only to have it taken away, and the folks that achieved it killed

Greenwood, Tulsa, Oklahoma - Wikipedia, the free encyclopedia

Maybe I'm outa line here, but it seems me you, as a Latino, (black godmother, etc.), seem a bit of a whiner for a member of the 1%'er. (While my income is below the national median.)

This was a cold low blow that clearly outlines that you as a white male do not like me as a minority working my ass off and being rewarded for my work. You are out of line, and the words you chose are very revealing. Don't be a hater, it is very unattractive. And please leave the "green" suit in the closet.