In The Heat of The Night

[Feanor]

Feanor, I know you don't agree with this, but that is probably because you have not had to deal with this personally. After watching this series, I just cannot agree with you on this point. Blacks have a right to be angry as hell at the way they have been treated in this country. Put of these shoes and hat if you can. Just imagine being sold(by your own people I might add, who thought is was just commerce and business as usual), brought to a foreign country, stripped of your culture, given a new name. You are enslaved on a plantation, have a family, then they are sold off splitting up the family. You are treated in a profoundly harsh way, beat up, your women raped, and when they have kids, they are sold away as well. Then you are freed, you go off to war because you are promised freedom, and when you come back from war, you don't get your freedom.
...

Here is just a little read, and just a crack in the door on Minority anger with the powers that be.

Reconstruction Era - Wikipedia, the free encyclopedia

Sir T, I'm not sure what it is you think I disagree with.

Certainly slavery AND subsequent racism are abhorrent. It is disgusting the poor white antebellum farmers and workers in the South embraced racism that, in reality, served primarily wealthy plantation owners. It is disgusting that Southern white racists were allowed to impose the 'Jim Crow' laws after Reconstruction. It is disgusting the men of learning and stature such as Woodrow Wilson were racists and introduce segregation is areas like the Federal civil service where it hadn't been before. It is disgusting the lightly veiled racism one hears directed at Barrack Obama. And it's disgusting to hear lightly veiled racism today from the likes of Tea Party supporters.

Blacks have a right to be angry. But anger is one thing, hate and slander of whites is another. If neutrality is the goal, tolerance -- from both sides -- is a step along the way.

Lastly, and oddly enough - I made a bet with a few of my friends. I challenged them to take a DNA test, so they know exactly what their racial make up is. My white friends didn't want to participate, but my Black, Latino, and South Asian friend jumped at the bet willingly. Peer pressure finally got my white friends in the game, so we are waiting to see the results. Since I have done this before, I pretty much know my outcome. However, when I did this before, some people were VERY surprised at what their DNA test results were - almost to the point of disbelief and agony.

I would love to have my DNA tested, and having thinking of it for sometime. If you know organization that does this for a reasonable price, let me known. But note that I'm interest in a fine breakdown of male chromosome information; I'm reasonably certain that I am of 100% European descent, so what I would be looking for is a finer breakdown, e.g. Celtic vs. Scandinavian. It tends to cost good deal more to get the more detailed info.

~~
Speaking of minority anger, the minority today that needs to be a lot angrier is the poor -- whatever their race. I have an hunch that today the ongoing race issue tends to cloak for the even more widespread issue of poverty.

Actually a degree of majority anger is becoming apropos what with the weakening of the middle class, (of all races), in the USA and Western countries due to the increasing concentration of wealth AND political power in the hands of the <1%.

[Sir Terrence the Terrible]

Sir T, I'm not sure what it is you think I disagree with.

Certainly slavery AND subsequent racism are abhorrent. It is disgusting the poor white antebellum farmers and workers in the South embraced racism that, in reality, served primarily wealthy plantation owners. It is disgusting that Southern white racists were allowed to impose the 'Jim Crow' laws after Reconstruction. It is disgusting the men of learning and stature such as Woodrow Wilson were racists and introduce segregation is areas like the Federal civil service where it hadn't been before. It is disgusting the lightly veiled racism one hears directed at Barrack Obama. And it's disgusting to hear lightly veiled racism today from the likes of Tea Party supporters.

Blacks have a right to be angry. But anger is one thing, hate and slander of whites is another. If neutrality is the goal, tolerance -- from both sides -- is a step along the way.

I must ask Feanor, why is it okay for whites to hate and slander Blacks and Latinos, but it is not okay for Blacks and Latino's(out of sheer anger and frustration) to feel the same way? Your comments while intellectually correct are completely devoid of the emotional impact of nearly 500 years of inequality, nearly 500 years of frustration, and nearly 500 years of being looked at as an animal or second class citizen(which still exist today). Racism in America is is a extremely long term problem in this country, and let's face it, it was built on it from day one. Blacks and Latino's have been more than patient in trying to achieve equality in this country. Each and every time some level of success has been achieved, the powers that be change the rules, and minorities are back to square one. You can only take this kind of treatment for so long, and then you rebel(see riots in Miami, Los Angeles, Cincinnati, New York, and so on).

I would love to have my DNA tested, and having thinking of it for sometime. If you know organization that does this for a reasonable price, let me known. But note that I'm interest in a fine breakdown of male chromosome information; I'm reasonably certain that I am of 100% European descent, so what I would be looking for is a finer breakdown, e.g. Celtic vs. Scandinavian. It tends to cost good deal more to get the more detailed info.

Feanor, unfortunately I don't know of an organization that does this test for a reasonable price. I got my done as a classroom experiment in a race relations class at USC.

~~

Speaking of minority anger, the minority today that needs to be a lot angrier is the poor -- whatever their race. I have an hunch that today the ongoing race issue tends to cloak for the even more widespread issue of poverty.

Who is the poor in America? It is Blacks and Latino's and that is a fact.

Actually a degree of majority anger is becoming apropos what with the weakening of the middle class, (of all races), in the USA and Western countries due to the increasing concentration of wealth AND political power in the hands of the <1%.

We have seen this before during the depression. Anytime whites find themselves unemployed in wide numbers, they blame either Mexican immigration, or they tend to limit the financial possibilities of blacks via institutional racism. During the depression, one all black town in the south remained very prosperous(largely because they could not do business beyond their community) because the dollar in their community change hands WITHIN the community 36 times before going outside of the community. Whites became jealous of this success, and burn the town to the ground, and killed nearly all of its residents. While we are not killing people today in mass like back then, we are killing their spirit by economically limiting them.

[Feanor]

I must ask Feanor, why is it okay for whites to hate and slander Blacks and Latinos, but it is not okay for Blacks and Latino's(out of sheer anger and frustration) to feel the same way? Your comments while intellectually correct are completely devoid of the emotional impact of nearly 500 years of inequality, nearly 500 years of frustration, and nearly 500 years of being looked at as an animal or second class citizen(which still exist today). Racism in America is is a extremely long term problem in this country, and let's face it, it was built on it from day one. Blacks and Latino's have been more than patient in trying to achieve equality in this country. Each and every time some level of success has been achieved, the powers that be change the rules, and minorities are back to square one. You can only take this kind of treatment for so long, and then you rebel (see riots in Miami, Los Angeles, Cincinnati, New York, and so on).

Sir T, where did I ever say it is OK for whites to hate & slander Blacks and Latinos? Never. Please make no such insinuation.

However, I am saying is that reciprocal Black/Latino/Asian racism isn't acceptable either. The racial situation has been and will be for quite some time a problem in the USA and elsewhere. BUT the solution will NOT include "minorities" responding in kind to "majority" racism.

Where is the race "neutrality" you want? Do you expect that first white need to be "neutral" and only then that Blacks and Latinos will need to be "neutral"? It just can't work that way.

So sorry if it sounds unemotional but Yes, Blacks and Latinos are going to have to keep on being patient. Patience may certainly include protests but not reciprocal racism. Most of all "patience" will include Blacks & Latinos getting out a voting for candidates who cleary espouse their cause.

Who is the poor in America? It is Blacks and Latino's and that is a fact.

The statistics show that in absolute numbers there are actually more poor whites than poor Blacks or Latinos; (not surprising since they are still the "majority"). Are there higher proportions of Blacks and of Latinos in poverty higher? Yes, not doubt.

So -- as an intellectual exercise, Sir T -- would the poverty situation be made better by equalizing the proportions in poverty? Should this be brought about by decreasing only the numbers of Blacks and Latino poor OR by increasing the number of poor white people? OR would it actually be better to reduce poverty overall? (Consider that the most egregious white racism is among the poorest and least educated whites.)

We have seen this before during the depression. Anytime whites find themselves unemployed in wide numbers, they blame either Mexican immigration, or they tend to limit the financial possibilities of blacks via institutional racism. During the depression, one all black town in the south remained very prosperous(largely because they could not do business beyond their community) because the dollar in their community change hands WITHIN the community 36 times before going outside of the community. Whites became jealous of this success, and burn the town to the ground, and killed nearly all of its residents. While we are not killing people today in mass like back then, we are killing their spirit by economically limiting them.

Well I would say it's progress that massing killings aren't happening today.

As for US illegal immigration today, I say that it reflects a deep hypocrisy in American society and the American economy. (1) Many resent the illegal incursion of some many of a foreign language and culture who (seem) to threaten their jobs and way of life in general. They resent that they are powerless to prevent this. (2) There is a significant portion of businessmen and farmers who want the cheapest possible labor; they are quite content that their workers remain undocumented and therefore underpaid and not subject to regular employee protections.

[Sir Terrence the Terrible]

Sir T, where did I ever say it is OK for whites to hate & slander Blacks and Latinos? Never. Please make no such insinuation.

Whites don't need your OK, they have been hating and slandering blacks for nearly 500 years, and Latino's for nearly 300 years.

However, I am saying is that reciprocal Black/Latino/Asian racism isn't acceptable either. The racial situation has been and will be for quite some time a problem in the USA and elsewhere. BUT the solution will NOT include "minorities" responding in kind to "majority" racism.

What do you suggest minorities do stand there and just take it? Do we just unemotionally accept that some whites won't just push you away from the table, but may not allow you there in the first place? Blacks have been down this road already. I don't know any race or culture that has not hated their oppressor.

Where is the race "neutrality" you want? Do you expect that first white need to be "neutral" and only then that Blacks and Latinos will need to be "neutral"? It just can't work that way.

Yes I do, and it can work that way if whites allowed it. They created this problem, made it worse and worse over the centuries, and it is up to them to make the first step in cleaning it up. The problem is they won't make that step, because it would mean they would have to give up something. Whites are in no mood to give up anything to minorities, and you and I both know this.

So sorry if it sounds unemotional but Yes, Blacks and Latinos are going to have to keep on being patient. Patience may certainly include protests but not reciprocal racism. Most of all "patience" will include Blacks & Latinos getting out a voting for candidates who cleary espouse their cause.

This is just so naive it makes my head hurt. (Putting myself in the place of Blacks). How in the hell can you expect me to not hate the people that brought me here, changed my name, sold me and separated me from my family over and over again, call me ugly, won't let me practice my culture, hang me arbitrarily, call me 3/5 of a human, spit on me, let loose dogs on me and fire water cannons on me(when I do protest), deny me the right to vote, and when I could vote, would never let a candidate that support my cause see the light of day, discriminate against me with jobs, the court system, the and school system, and not to mention their killing young people who are not even armed(which sends a message your life is not worth anything)? Do you really expect me not to hate the people who would do this to me? Really???

Here is why I think you are missing the mark on this. Intellectually you are spot on. However the major component of this is not intellectual(whites KNOW racism is wrong), it is deeply emotional, and that is what you are missing here. The major component here is the emotional and psychological impact, not the intellectual. Most everything Whites have done to Blacks, Indians, Asians, and Latino's is to emotionally crippled them, keep them divided and fighting amongst each other(divide and conquer anyone), and tell them the need to be governed by Whites because they are incapable of governing themselves. It is the psychological warfare that does the most damage, and that is what is missing from your intellectual perspective.

The statistics show that in absolute numbers there are actually more poor whites than poor Blacks or Latinos; (not surprising since they are still the "majority"). Are there higher proportions of Blacks and of Latinos in poverty higher? Yes, not doubt.

So why is this? It is because whites have institutionally shut Blacks and Latino's out of the game. A poor white man can pull himself up by his bootstraps. He is white. Blacks and Latino's cannot pull themselves up by their bootstraps, because they don't have any boots. This is the way some whites want it, and why it has been this way for centuries.

So -- as an intellectual exercise, Sir T -- would the poverty situation be made better by equalizing the proportions in poverty? Should this be brought about by decreasing only the numbers of Blacks and Latino poor OR by increasing the number of poor white people? OR would it actually be better to reduce poverty overall? (Consider that the most egregious white racism is among the poorest and least educated whites.)

Feanor, poverty overall is another issue altogether with. Poverty didn't lead to racism, racism led to poverty. No white person has been pushed into poverty because of their skin color....minorities have. This is a smoke screen to me.

Well I would say it's progress that massing killings aren't happening today.

Progress? Perhaps. Or just a change in tactics. Mass killings were tried already, and they failed get the desired impact(keep folks in their place). Now there is a new game in town. Kill off young black males, or put them in jail which kills off their future economic opportunities. Make Blacks and Latino's invisible in the public eye. Fill all magazines with white faces, and tell minorities they are too ugly to sell magazines. Don't show 1,000 young Black males graduating from college on television, and don't report it. Throw out any resume that has a known Black name, they would not fit into our office culture. If a candidate shows up with dreadlocks, don't hire them; if does not fit into our office culture. Black women, no natural hair, it does not fit in with our office culture. These kinds of things emotionally break you down, and that is sorely missing out of your points. Today's racism is not in your face, it is a subtle emotional and psychological warfare designed to slowly break you down. It will if you let it.

As for US illegal immigration today, I say that it reflects a deep hypocrisy in American society and the American economy. (1) Many resent the illegal incursion of some many of a foreign language and culture who (seem) to threaten their jobs and way of life in general. They resent that they are powerless to prevent this. (2) There is a significant portion of businessmen and farmers who want the cheapest possible labor; they are quite content that their workers remain undocumented and therefore underpaid and not subject to regular employee protections.

I absolutely agree with you here! Use the cheap labor as long as you need them, and send them home when you don't. No benefits, and no chance to stay and obtain citizenship, and no chance for a better life.

On the flip side of the coin, many Mexicans would LOVE to come here and work for six months LEGALLY, and go home for six months. Many more don't want to live here because of the racism, but have no work or employment future at home. The Mexican government loves this, because so many send money back home to Mexico, and the Mexican government does not have to use any resources to care for the segment of the population.

On this subject, hypocrisy is everywhere.

[Feanor]

(Oh, boy ... here we go ...)

Where is the race "neutrality" you want? Do you expect that first white need to be "neutral" and only then that Blacks and Latinos will need to be "neutral"? It just can't work that way.

Yes I do, and it can work that way if whites allowed it. They created this problem, made it worse and worse over the centuries, and it is up to them to make the first step in cleaning it up. The problem is they won't make that step, because it would mean they would have to give up something. Whites are in no mood to give up anything to minorities, and you and I both know this.

If you believe that Black/Latino/whatever racism, (as opposed to mere anger, resentment), is an acceptable response to white racism, then racism is certainly here for the long haul.

Actually it's damned hypocritical on your part to call for "neutrality" from whites if you don't see the the need for reciprocal neutrality from Blacks, et al., in real-time. And it tends to make you look like racist around here.

Here is why I think you are missing the mark on this. Intellectually you are spot on. However the major component of this is not intellectual (whites KNOW racism is wrong), it is deeply emotional, and that is what you are missing here. The major component here is the emotional and psychological impact, not the intellectual. Most everything Whites have done to Blacks, Indians, Asians, and Latino's is to emotionally crippled them, keep them divided and fighting amongst each other (divide and conquer anyone), and tell them the need to be governed by Whites because they are incapable of governing themselves. It is the psychological warfare that does the most damage, and that is what is missing from your intellectual perspective.

Yes, true, damned true, at least historically. White racism arose during the amazingly rapid rise of Europe from a backwater in the 14th century to world dominance by the mid 19th century. Does the is make white racism unique, NO, other than its relatively recent origin and world span. Racism has always existed and still exists almost everywhere among people of all races.

The worldwide scourge of racism ISN'T going to be solve by whites alone giving it up. If you believe this you are wrong and in grave danger of being labelled a racist yourself.

Feanor, poverty overall is another issue altogether with. Poverty didn't lead to racism, racism led to poverty. No white person has been pushed into poverty because of their skin color....minorities have. This is a smoke screen to me.

Remove the fear & envy by alleviating poverty and racism looses most of its raison d'être. You've offered the explanation yourself: fear of loss of economic security is probably most common source of racism today among whites (and various others). But, (and apparently you agree), the second most common cause is envy by those who have less of those who have more.

Maybe I'm outa line here, but it seems me you, as a Latino, (black godmother, etc.), seem a bit of a whiner for a member of the 1%'er. (While my income is below the national median.)

On this subject, hypocrisy is everywhere.

So it seems.

[Sir Terrence the Terrible]

(Oh, boy ... here we go ...)

Yep, here we go.

If you believe that Black/Latino/whatever racism, (as opposed to mere anger, resentment), is an acceptable response to white racism, then racism is certainly here for the long haul.

This is not why it is here for the long haul. It is here for the long haul because whites cannot plainly see they are doing anything wrong, or that anything is wrong institutionally. How does one parse racism from anger and resentment? The response to racism IS anger and resentment.

Actually it's damned hypocritical on your part to call for "neutrality" from whites if you don't see the the need for reciprocal neutrality from Blacks, et al., in real-time. And it tends to make you look like racist around here.

Can you explain to me why the person with the boot on the neck has to proclaim neutrality when they didn't start this in the first place, and have no power to end it(or it would have been done already)? Blacks don't control any power in America. They are not oppressing whites, limiting their economic chances, calling whites ugly and unmarketable, or telling whites where they can live, or redlining them because they don't want to live next to them. And please Feanor, put your racist card back in your wallet. Anyone who actually knows me know that it is not possible for me to be racist against whites. I am part white.

Yes, true, damned true, at least historically. White racism arose during the amazingly rapid rise of Europe from a backwater in the 14th century to world dominance by the mid 19th century. Does the is make white racism unique, NO, other than its relatively recent origin and world span. Racism has always existed and still exists almost everywhere among people of all races.

No other race in history has enslaved a group of people based on race ALONE. It was always slavery as the spoils of war. This racism is unique in that is was born out of slavery, and even after slavery officially ended blacks were still slaves because of lack of economic oportunities. If I only have access to the lowest paying jobs, then I am still in slavery despite any decree.

The worldwide scourge of racism ISN'T going to be solve by whites alone giving it up. If you believe this you are wrong and in grave danger of being labelled a racist yourself.

This BS is just plain nonsense. What the hell can Blacks and Latino's do to whites? Not one damn thing except to say I don't like you because of how you have treated me and mine. What does a minorities do to proclaim neutrality, allow whites to continue kicking their asses? Give me a freakin break here. The people with all of the power have to give up some of that power PERIOD. The people with no power have nothing to give here.

Remove the fear & envy by alleviating poverty and racism looses most of its raison d'être. You've offered the explanation yourself: fear of loss of economic security is probably most common source of racism today among whites (and various others). But, (and apparently you agree), the second most common cause is envy by those who have less of those who have more.

It is not envy, because blacks had achieved a high level of success in the history of this country(only to have it taken away, and the folks that achieved it killed

Greenwood, Tulsa, Oklahoma - Wikipedia, the free encyclopedia

Maybe I'm outa line here, but it seems me you, as a Latino, (black godmother, etc.), seem a bit of a whiner for a member of the 1%'er. (While my income is below the national median.)

This was a cold low blow that clearly outlines that you as a white male do not like me as a minority working my ass off and being rewarded for my work. You are out of line, and the words you chose are very revealing. Don't be a hater, it is very unattractive. And please leave the "green" suit in the closet.

[JohnMichael]

I am going to throw this out there and I may be sorry I did. When we are talking about prejudice as prejudging a group of individuals and hate based on that prejudging as a basis of racism is not the victim of the hate the more knowledgeable on the subject? Reading about something is not the same as experiencing a thing.

I could no more speak about what it must be like to go to war having never been a soldier regardless of how much I read.

[Feanor]

These are my final comments on the subject ...

First of all: BLACK RACISM IS NOT VALID: no racism is valid.

It is one thing to explain a phenomenon, it is another thing to excuse, justify or validate it. Black racism is certainly explainable -- emotionally or intellectually -- on the basis of injustices done to Blacks. However Black racism is invalid and counter-effectual for rationally obvious reasons; (sorry if emotions get the way):

• It reinforces still existing white racism
• Like hatred in general, it is psychologically damaging to the person doing the hating
• (Least importantly), it occasionally will harm a white person who him/herself might or might not be racist.

If you believe that Black/Latino/whatever racism, (as opposed to mere anger, resentment), is an acceptable response to white racism, then racism is certainly here for the long haul.

This is not why it is here for the long haul. It is here for the long haul because whites cannot plainly see they are doing anything wrong, or that anything is wrong institutionally. How does one parse racism from anger and resentment? The response to racism IS anger and resentment.

{emphasis added}

This is a slander, (lie). Plenty of whites CAN plainly see that they, (i.e. other whites), are still doing wrong. In the recent past white politicians primarily have been responsible for reducing the "institutional"issues: Blacks don't have to sit at the back of the bus, aren't refused seats at lunch counters, have to drink from separate water fountains, (I can still remember why shock when I observed this for the first time when I visited Florida circa 1959). it is everywhere against the law to discriminate for jobs or housing on the basis of race. Blacks aren't denied entry to the colleges or universities, (the contrary if you take affirmative action into account). A Black is POTUS, (notwithstanding that he's actually mixed race and not an Black American strictly speaking).

If you reject that there has been enormous progress against discrimination and racism, then you're being either disingenuous or dishonest with yourself.

I used the phase earlier, "functional racism", asserting that it is greatly reduced. But, "Ah! Bill", you say, "in their hearts whites still hate Blacks and Latinos". To which I respond, "Yeah, some still do, but at least you got to eat lunch with your colleagues".

I repeat: this is my last on the subject.

[Smokey]

Whites don't need your OK, they have been hating and slandering blacks for nearly 500 years, and Latino's for nearly 300 years.

I agree that whites should take alot of blame as what is happening, but on the same note blacks and latinos are not so blameless and innocent

What about all the shootings, robbery and violence that is happening in blacks and latino community, or emanating from those communities?

I live in urban area and a night does not go by without hearing somebody did drive by shooting, or shoot up a person or place in east part of town. Or if there is a robbery (either a person, bank or business) in town, 4 out of 5 times description is given as minority.

What I mean is we are all in this toghether. If we want to improve things, we have to start with ourselves (that not only apply here, but all over the world)

[JohnMichael]

I agree that whites should take alot of blame as what is happening, but on the same note blacks and latinos are not so blameless and innocent

What about all the shootings, robbery and violence that is happening in blacks and latino community, or emanating from those communities?

I live in urban area and a night does not go by without hearing somebody did drive by shooting, or shoot up a person or place in east part of town. Or if there is a robbery (either a person, bank or business) in town, 4 out of 5 times description is given as minority.

What I mean is we are all in this toghether. If we want to improve things, we have to start with ourselves (that not only apply here, but all over the world)

When people are denied jobs based on the color of their skin or ethnic background poverty breeds a lack of hope. I think if you were hungry enough you might steal a loaf of bread. If there are no jobs available to you but you could live very well selling drugs you might be tempted. I think racism breeds poverty and poverty increases crime.

Drugs are a great way to numb yourself from a bad life situation. Sadly drugs become either mentally or physically addicting. Living in poverty with no hope and now addicted to drugs you might be capable of doing anything for your next fix. You deal drugs to supply your habit and if someone is cutting into your business you kill them. Poverty becomes in some instances an endless cycle.

[Smokey]

When people are denied jobs based on the color of their skin or ethnic background poverty breeds a lack of hope. I think if you were hungry enough you might steal a loaf of bread. If there are no jobs available to you but you could live very well selling drugs you might be tempted. I think racism breeds poverty and poverty increases crime.

Drugs are a great way to numb yourself from a bad life situation. Sadly drugs become either mentally or physically addicting. Living in poverty with no hope and now addicted to drugs you might be capable of doing anything for your next fix. You deal drugs to supply your habit and if someone is cutting into your business you kill them. Poverty becomes in some instances an endless cycle.

I agree with your statement that racism breed poverty, and poverty breed crime. And if you include drugs in the mix, we will have an expolsive mix.

I also believe that alot of crimes happening is also due to a person upbringing (that is true for every race). If there is no father figure or strict authority in the house, the child have more tendecy to stray than the one that have a butt kicking authority waiting for them at house.

Sorry to say that alot of crime commited by minorities fit former above scenario than latter family scenario.