In The Heat of The Night

[Feanor]

(Oh, boy ... here we go ...)

Where is the race "neutrality" you want? Do you expect that first white need to be "neutral" and only then that Blacks and Latinos will need to be "neutral"? It just can't work that way.

Yes I do, and it can work that way if whites allowed it. They created this problem, made it worse and worse over the centuries, and it is up to them to make the first step in cleaning it up. The problem is they won't make that step, because it would mean they would have to give up something. Whites are in no mood to give up anything to minorities, and you and I both know this.

If you believe that Black/Latino/whatever racism, (as opposed to mere anger, resentment), is an acceptable response to white racism, then racism is certainly here for the long haul.

Actually it's damned hypocritical on your part to call for "neutrality" from whites if you don't see the the need for reciprocal neutrality from Blacks, et al., in real-time. And it tends to make you look like racist around here.

Here is why I think you are missing the mark on this. Intellectually you are spot on. However the major component of this is not intellectual (whites KNOW racism is wrong), it is deeply emotional, and that is what you are missing here. The major component here is the emotional and psychological impact, not the intellectual. Most everything Whites have done to Blacks, Indians, Asians, and Latino's is to emotionally crippled them, keep them divided and fighting amongst each other (divide and conquer anyone), and tell them the need to be governed by Whites because they are incapable of governing themselves. It is the psychological warfare that does the most damage, and that is what is missing from your intellectual perspective.

Yes, true, damned true, at least historically. White racism arose during the amazingly rapid rise of Europe from a backwater in the 14th century to world dominance by the mid 19th century. Does the is make white racism unique, NO, other than its relatively recent origin and world span. Racism has always existed and still exists almost everywhere among people of all races.

The worldwide scourge of racism ISN'T going to be solve by whites alone giving it up. If you believe this you are wrong and in grave danger of being labelled a racist yourself.

Feanor, poverty overall is another issue altogether with. Poverty didn't lead to racism, racism led to poverty. No white person has been pushed into poverty because of their skin color....minorities have. This is a smoke screen to me.

Remove the fear & envy by alleviating poverty and racism looses most of its raison d'être. You've offered the explanation yourself: fear of loss of economic security is probably most common source of racism today among whites (and various others). But, (and apparently you agree), the second most common cause is envy by those who have less of those who have more.

Maybe I'm outa line here, but it seems me you, as a Latino, (black godmother, etc.), seem a bit of a whiner for a member of the 1%'er. (While my income is below the national median.)

On this subject, hypocrisy is everywhere.

So it seems.

[Sir Terrence the Terrible]

(Oh, boy ... here we go ...)

Yep, here we go.

If you believe that Black/Latino/whatever racism, (as opposed to mere anger, resentment), is an acceptable response to white racism, then racism is certainly here for the long haul.

This is not why it is here for the long haul. It is here for the long haul because whites cannot plainly see they are doing anything wrong, or that anything is wrong institutionally. How does one parse racism from anger and resentment? The response to racism IS anger and resentment.

Actually it's damned hypocritical on your part to call for "neutrality" from whites if you don't see the the need for reciprocal neutrality from Blacks, et al., in real-time. And it tends to make you look like racist around here.

Can you explain to me why the person with the boot on the neck has to proclaim neutrality when they didn't start this in the first place, and have no power to end it(or it would have been done already)? Blacks don't control any power in America. They are not oppressing whites, limiting their economic chances, calling whites ugly and unmarketable, or telling whites where they can live, or redlining them because they don't want to live next to them. And please Feanor, put your racist card back in your wallet. Anyone who actually knows me know that it is not possible for me to be racist against whites. I am part white.

Yes, true, damned true, at least historically. White racism arose during the amazingly rapid rise of Europe from a backwater in the 14th century to world dominance by the mid 19th century. Does the is make white racism unique, NO, other than its relatively recent origin and world span. Racism has always existed and still exists almost everywhere among people of all races.

No other race in history has enslaved a group of people based on race ALONE. It was always slavery as the spoils of war. This racism is unique in that is was born out of slavery, and even after slavery officially ended blacks were still slaves because of lack of economic oportunities. If I only have access to the lowest paying jobs, then I am still in slavery despite any decree.

The worldwide scourge of racism ISN'T going to be solve by whites alone giving it up. If you believe this you are wrong and in grave danger of being labelled a racist yourself.

This BS is just plain nonsense. What the hell can Blacks and Latino's do to whites? Not one damn thing except to say I don't like you because of how you have treated me and mine. What does a minorities do to proclaim neutrality, allow whites to continue kicking their asses? Give me a freakin break here. The people with all of the power have to give up some of that power PERIOD. The people with no power have nothing to give here.

Remove the fear & envy by alleviating poverty and racism looses most of its raison d'être. You've offered the explanation yourself: fear of loss of economic security is probably most common source of racism today among whites (and various others). But, (and apparently you agree), the second most common cause is envy by those who have less of those who have more.

It is not envy, because blacks had achieved a high level of success in the history of this country(only to have it taken away, and the folks that achieved it killed

Greenwood, Tulsa, Oklahoma - Wikipedia, the free encyclopedia

Maybe I'm outa line here, but it seems me you, as a Latino, (black godmother, etc.), seem a bit of a whiner for a member of the 1%'er. (While my income is below the national median.)

This was a cold low blow that clearly outlines that you as a white male do not like me as a minority working my ass off and being rewarded for my work. You are out of line, and the words you chose are very revealing. Don't be a hater, it is very unattractive. And please leave the "green" suit in the closet.

[JohnMichael]

I am going to throw this out there and I may be sorry I did. When we are talking about prejudice as prejudging a group of individuals and hate based on that prejudging as a basis of racism is not the victim of the hate the more knowledgeable on the subject? Reading about something is not the same as experiencing a thing.

I could no more speak about what it must be like to go to war having never been a soldier regardless of how much I read.

[Sir Terrence the Terrible]

I am going to throw this out there and I may be sorry I did. When we are talking about prejudice as prejudging a group of individuals and hate based on that prejudging as a basis of racism is not the victim of the hate the more knowledgeable on the subject? Reading about something is not the same as experiencing a thing.

I could no more speak about what it must be like to go to war having never been a soldier regardless of how much I read.

JM, this is a good point. Anyone that just plain "intellectualize" racism totally misses the point. Anyone who has never heard the words "I don't want to work with you because nobody will hire a Latino". Anyone who has never heard the words "Sorry, we don't serve half breeds" will never understanding how demeaning it is.

I am going to tell you why I thought Feanor's last statement to me was ignorant as hell. Oprah Winfrey has made FAR, FAR, FAR, FAR more money than I have, but a store salesperson would not even show her a bag.

http://thelede.blogs.nytimes.com/201...ype=blogs&_r=0

The amount of money you make does not make a bit if difference when the prevailing thought is because of your color, you can't afford it.

On my first studio job, I was assigned to a mixing room, but nobody in the all white post production department would work with me. Why, because they said that nobody would hire a latino for a mix job, and partnering with me would hurt their income. So I went on alone doing everything myself(when it usually requires three people). At the end of the year it turns out that my mixing stage made far more money than the next closest mix team. Why? Because I could mix my ass off, and do it at or under budget.

Or let's talk about the when I auditioned for Color Guard Captain in my freshman year of high school. Some white students found it objectionable that a minority would try for this leadership position, and actually put out a petition to prevent me from even auditioning. When I asked why, some folks responded that we have never had a minority as a captain, and they didn't think I could do the job(it was a hard job). Thanks to the Band Director I was given a chance(he was Jewish). Everyone on the 10 man panel gave my audition a perfect 10 across in every area the audition covered, and still students protested. I got the job, and for the next four years our Guard completely dominated the competition. So much for I cannot handle the job. However, as a result of getting that job, I had my locker blown up by a cherry bomb four times, destroying my books(I had to replace them, and it was not cheap) and everything else in the locker. My parents had the money to pay my tuition every year I attended that exclusive school, so money was not the issue. The issue was the students didn't want minorities attending there. If they did, they wanted them to "stay in their place"(whatever the hell that means).

Or how about the time the Cavaliers went to Mississippi for DCI national championships. The entire 128 member corps walked out of three restaurants during championship week because they would not serve the four black guys, and the three latino's that were in the guard. I was the one that had a credit card given to me(so I had the money to buy breakfast, lunch, and dinner at all three of these restaurants), and yet they would not serve me. The amount of money you have in your pockets(or on plastic) does not matter if the racist doesn't think you were worthy to be served.

Throughout my entire life I kept being told no you can't do it, or no you can't have it because of my skin color. So if anyone thinks that just because you are in the 1% that you should not complain about racism, they are dead wrong. Just ask Oprah about that.

In spite of the fact that Magic Johnson is also in the 1%, Donald Sterling had no problem insulting him, and telling his ho for a girlfriend not to bring people like that(Blacks) to HIS games. When you think so low of minorities, money is a non-issue.

This is why I thought Feanor's stupid comment was pretty damn insulting. He just does not seem to get it, and that is because he has never been touched by it. Stand in my shoes for a week, and see if you change your mind about that statement.

[Feanor]

These are my final comments on the subject ...

First of all: BLACK RACISM IS NOT VALID: no racism is valid.

It is one thing to explain a phenomenon, it is another thing to excuse, justify or validate it. Black racism is certainly explainable -- emotionally or intellectually -- on the basis of injustices done to Blacks. However Black racism is invalid and counter-effectual for rationally obvious reasons; (sorry if emotions get the way):

• It reinforces still existing white racism
• Like hatred in general, it is psychologically damaging to the person doing the hating
• (Least importantly), it occasionally will harm a white person who him/herself might or might not be racist.

If you believe that Black/Latino/whatever racism, (as opposed to mere anger, resentment), is an acceptable response to white racism, then racism is certainly here for the long haul.

This is not why it is here for the long haul. It is here for the long haul because whites cannot plainly see they are doing anything wrong, or that anything is wrong institutionally. How does one parse racism from anger and resentment? The response to racism IS anger and resentment.

{emphasis added}

This is a slander, (lie). Plenty of whites CAN plainly see that they, (i.e. other whites), are still doing wrong. In the recent past white politicians primarily have been responsible for reducing the "institutional"issues: Blacks don't have to sit at the back of the bus, aren't refused seats at lunch counters, have to drink from separate water fountains, (I can still remember why shock when I observed this for the first time when I visited Florida circa 1959). it is everywhere against the law to discriminate for jobs or housing on the basis of race. Blacks aren't denied entry to the colleges or universities, (the contrary if you take affirmative action into account). A Black is POTUS, (notwithstanding that he's actually mixed race and not an Black American strictly speaking).

If you reject that there has been enormous progress against discrimination and racism, then you're being either disingenuous or dishonest with yourself.

I used the phase earlier, "functional racism", asserting that it is greatly reduced. But, "Ah! Bill", you say, "in their hearts whites still hate Blacks and Latinos". To which I respond, "Yeah, some still do, but at least you got to eat lunch with your colleagues".

I repeat: this is my last on the subject.

[JohnMichael]

These are my final comments on the subject ...

First of all: BLACK RACISM IS NOT VALID: no racism is valid.

It is one thing to explain a phenomenon, it is another thing to excuse, justify or validate it. Black racism is certainly explainable -- emotionally or intellectually -- on the basis of injustices done to Blacks. However Black racism is invalid and counter-effectual for rationally obvious reasons; (sorry if emotions get the way):

• It reinforces still existing white racism
• Like hatred in general, it is psychologically damaging to the person doing the hating
• (Least importantly), it occasionally will harm a white person who him/herself might or might not be racist.

{emphasis added}

This is a slander, (lie). Plenty of whites CAN plainly see that they, (i.e. other whites), are still doing wrong. In the recent past white politicians primarily have been responsible for reducing the "institutional"issues: Blacks don't have to sit at the back of the bus, aren't refused seats at lunch counters, have to drink from separate water fountains, (I can still remember why shock when I observed this for the first time when I visited Florida circa 1959). it is everywhere against the law to discriminate for jobs or housing on the basis of race. Blacks aren't denied entry to the colleges or universities, (the contrary if you take affirmative action into account). A Black is POTUS, (notwithstanding that he's actually mixed race and not an Black American strictly speaking).

If you reject that there has been enormous progress against discrimination and racism, then you're being either disingenuous or dishonest with yourself.

I used the phase earlier, "functional racism", asserting that it is greatly reduced. But, "Ah! Bill", you say, "in their hearts whites still hate Blacks and Latinos". To which I respond, "Yeah, some still do, but at least you got to eat lunch with your colleagues".

I repeat: this is my last on the subject.

Remember when you speak of politicians reducing institutionalized racism it is important to remember that not all politicians wanted those laws enacted. It has mostly been the Democrats that have fought for social change. Just because a law changes does not mean men's hearts change.

In some ways these laws made things better superficially but we never did resolve the race issues. Seeing the activities of the Tea party and their new voice of racism saddens me. A bunch of scared white folks who got theirs and do not want women and minorities to become equals. Damn and I thought things were getting better. People did not improve because of a change of heart but due to a change in law.

[JohnMichael]

Being pasty white I never experienced racism but being gay I have dealt with a lot of prejudice. As a white man I could get the job but later when they figured out I was gay I lost the job. Going to a predominately white catholic school I was the minority and was treated as such. I was taunted and tormented for being something I had not even completely figured out for myself.

Back in the days when they could ask questions such as are you married were often the turning point of an interview. All would be going well and the employer was interested when that question would be asked. Being in my mid 20's to 30's and not being married the whole tone of the interview would change and end abruptly.

I never had a cross burned in my yard but the phone would ring at night with death threats. I might be walking to work when a car would pull up and begin shouting f@g and c@cksucker which then might elicit interesting questions from people I was walking past on the sidewalk. If I did go downtown to the one gay bar which became gay after the older regulars left about 10 PM I knew it would take all my skills to get home. Pick up trucks of rednecks would show up at closing time to harass. Boy I could drive those back alleys and make turns that the trucks could not. Once home I would hide my car in case the pursuit would continue.

I know some of you will not like this post based on reactions to other posts I have made but believe me I know what being prejudged is about. I know how it kills your will to succeed because it is just a matter of time before the rug gets pulled out anyway.

This does not even cover prejudice in one's family. Coming out can be a whole nightmare on it's own.

[Feanor]

Being pasty white I never experienced racism but being gay I have dealt with a lot of prejudice. As a white man I could get the job but later when they figured out I was gay I lost the job. Going to a predominately white catholic school I was the minority and was treated as such. I was taunted and tormented for being something I had not even completely figured out for myself.

Back in the days when they could ask questions such as are you married were often the turning point of an interview. All would be going well and the employer was interested when that question would be asked. Being in my mid 20's to 30's and not being married the whole tone of the interview would change and end abruptly.

I never had a cross burned in my yard but the phone would ring at night with death threats. I might be walking to work when a car would pull up and begin shouting f@g and c@cksucker which then might elicit interesting questions from people I was walking past on the sidewalk. If I did go downtown to the one gay bar which became gay after the older regulars left about 10 PM I knew it would take all my skills to get home. Pick up trucks of rednecks would show up at closing time to harass. Boy I could drive those back alleys and make turns that the trucks could not. Once home I would hide my car in case the pursuit would continue.

I know some of you will not like this post based on reactions to other posts I have made but believe me I know what being prejudged is about. I know how it kills your will to succeed because it is just a matter of time before the rug gets pulled out anyway.

This does not even cover prejudice in one's family. Coming out can be a whole nightmare on it's own.

All deplorable, JM, and I'd like to believe these things wouldn't happen in the community where I lofe, (though I suppose some do from time to time).

But my question is, Do you hate all 'straight' people in general as a result?

[JohnMichael]

All deplorable, JM, and I'd like to believe these things wouldn't happen in the community where I lofe, (though I suppose some do from time to time).

But my question is, Do you hate all 'straight' people in general as a result?

No but I am still very guarded. I do not trust straight people at first meeting. I recently started a new job and my levels of anxiety are high. Sure there are some I hate who went out of their way to do me harm. Having been a victim of a hate crime where the unthinkable happened I do wish for the death of my violator.

If you have not lived under the oppression of prejudice it is tough to understand. It can be as small as an uncle who would buy everyone a Christmas present but you. It could be a physical attack at work but since you have been told any more gay issues and you would be terminated you take the attacks in stride. After all you made the mistake of reporting the death threats that were drawn on the wall of the locker room. Yes I am leery.

[Feanor]

Remember when you speak of politicians reducing institutionalized racism it is important to remember that not all politicians wanted those laws enacted. It has mostly been the Democrats that have fought for social change. Just because a law changes does not mean men's hearts change.

In some ways these laws made things better superficially but we never did resolve the race issues. Seeing the activities of the Tea party and their new voice of racism saddens me. A bunch of scared white folks who got theirs and do not want women and minorities to become equals. Damn and I thought things were getting better. People did not improve because of a change of heart but due to a change in law.

JM, I hope nothing I said caused Sir Terrence to misconstrue my meaning, nor that I have misconstrued his.

In no way do I mean to minimize White racism that still exists. I did point out that effective discrimination is much reduced, but I didn't mean to imply that the nation has gone far enough.

What I construed from Sir T's comments was that Black or Latino racism, (generalized hatred of, or discrimination towards, Whites), was NOT ONLY explainable/understandable BUT ALSO justified/valid. This I reject on the very practical grounds that it is not only deplorable in itself but also COUNTER-EFFECTIVE in terms of reducing residual White racism.

[Sir Terrence the Terrible]

JM, I hope nothing I said caused Sir Terrence to misconstrue my meaning, nor that I have misconstrued his.

In no way do I mean to minimize White racism that still exists. I did point out that effective discrimination is much reduced, but I didn't mean to imply that the nation has gone far enough.

What I construed from Sir T's comments was that Black or Latino racism, (generalized hatred of, or discrimination towards, Whites), was NOT ONLY explainable/understandable BUT ALSO justified/valid. This I reject on the very practical grounds that it is not only deplorable in itself but also COUNTER-EFFECTIVE in terms of reducing residual White racism.

There is a very thin line between hatred of whites, and profound anger with them.

Racism

prejudice, discrimination, or antagonism directed against someone of a different race based on the belief that one's own race is superior.

In my entire lifetime, I have never heard Blacks or Latino's say their race was superior to whites. They say it is EQUAL, but never said it is better. It seems you do not have a very good grasp of what racism actually means, or you would not make such asinine statements. Blacks and Latino's don't necessarily hate whites, but they sure are mad as hell about how they have been treated by them. They should be.

Reducing racism cannot come from anywhere else except from the white community. They control the power structure of this country, and they essentially make its rules. There is nothing a black or Latino can say to a white person that changes their biased perspective. There is nothing blacks and latinos can DO to change that biased perspective either. What you are attempting is to try and be fair, and that is hard to do when things are so out of balance. In order for equality to exist, whites MUST give up seats at the table. Unfortunately they are not willing to do that, hence why racism is as prominent today as it way yesterday(albeit quite different).

[Feanor]

(Fine, make a liar out of me ... )

There is a very thin line between hatred of whites, and profound anger with them.

However, the thin line should be observed.

Racism

prejudice, discrimination, or antagonism directed against someone of a different race based on the belief that one's own race is superior.

In my entire lifetime, I have never heard Blacks or Latino's say their race was superior to whites. They say it is EQUAL, but never said it is better. It seems you do not have a very good grasp of what racism actually means, or you would not make such asinine statements. Blacks and Latino's don't necessarily hate whites, but they sure are mad as hell about how they have been treated by them. They should be.

Reducing racism cannot come from anywhere else except from the white community. They control the power structure of this country, and they essentially make its rules. There is nothing a black or Latino can say to a white person that changes their biased perspective. There is nothing blacks and latinos can DO to change that biased perspective either. What you are attempting is to try and be fair, and that is hard to do when things are so out of balance. In order for equality to exist, whites MUST give up seats at the table. Unfortunately they are not willing to do that, hence why racism is as prominent today as it way yesterday(albeit quite different).

The above definition seems to say that to be racism, prejudice, discrimination, or antagonism must be based on a sense of one's racial superiority. Why necessarily on a sense of superiority? This implies that prejudice, discrimination, or antagonism are acceptable otherwise. Ah! But this seems to be your whole point: tit-for-tat prejudice, discrimination, or antagonism is OK. Well I don't agree: prejudice, discrimination, or antagonism are not acceptable under any circumstance.

You must have lead a sheltered live if you've never heard a Black or Latino claim racial superiority; even I have hear the odd Black say that occasionally.

The days of affirmative action are coming to an end. Minorities must EARN their seats at the table: fortunately a good many have done so already and more are doing so all the time.

Even if Blacks and Latinos could do nothing to reduce white's bias, for sure they can do a lot to REINFOCE white bias.

Quit while your behind, Sir T; (I'll bet you won't because you never, ever concede that you're wrong). Everything you say tends to show that you are the racist around here.

[Sir Terrence the Terrible]

These are my final comments on the subject ...

Thank goodness, because on this subject, you can't even buy a clue.

First of all: BLACK RACISM IS NOT VALID: no racism is valid.

It is one thing to explain a phenomenon, it is another thing to excuse, justify or validate it. Black racism is certainly explainable -- emotionally or intellectually -- on the basis of injustices done to Blacks. However Black racism is invalid and counter-effectual for rationally obvious reasons; (sorry if emotions get the way):

• It reinforces still existing white racism
• Like hatred in general, it is psychologically damaging to the person doing the hating
• (Least importantly), it occasionally will harm a white person who him/herself might or might not be racist.

Oh please, my boots stink and are nearly covered with.......your crap. Whites have never needed blacks to do anything for them to dislike them. Whites think blacks are inferior in every way to whites, and based on that - should stay in their place. That is the prevailing thought process since slavery.

{emphasis added}

This is a slander, (lie). Plenty of whites CAN plainly see that they, (i.e. other whites), are still doing wrong.

Then instead of sitting on their hands with their mouths closed, why don't they do or say something? I tell you why they don't. Even if whites have no issues with blacks, they do not want to give up the power and privilege of being the so called "boss" of this country. So you can call "slander" all you want, but that is just a smokescreen that can easily fanned away.

In the recent past white politicians primarily have been responsible for reducing the "institutional"issues: Blacks don't have to sit at the back of the bus, aren't refused seats at lunch counters, have to drink from separate water fountains, (I can still remember why shock when I observed this for the first time when I visited Florida circa 1959). it is everywhere against the law to discriminate for jobs or housing on the basis of race. Blacks aren't denied entry to the colleges or universities, (the contrary if you take affirmative action into account). A Black is POTUS, (notwithstanding that he's actually mixed race and not an Black American strictly speaking).

Have you been hiding under a rock since the civil rights bill has been signed? Racism does not have to be back of the bus, or lunch counter. That is overt racism that is roundly frowned upon. Today it is more insidious and subtle. If I see a resume with the name Tasha Williams, or Kenisha Jones, they toss the resume in the trash, no matter who qualified they are. 20/20 pointed this out YEARS ago. Harassing and jailing the primary money maker and head of the household(which is called economic warfare) is the new racism. Today it is so institutional and deeply rooted in subtleties, that is skips the radar of most whites - who now thing we are post racial(are you kidding?). You obviously have not been keeping up, but Affirmative Action has been slowly eroding away for the last decade. No longer can you use race to weight admission. You can't do it in California, Michigan, Texas, and any other public educational institution. So you think because it is against the law to discriminate in jobs and housing that they don't do it? That is insanely ignorant of you. You ever heard of Donald Sterling?

The Devastating Impact Of Housing Discrimination Perpetrated By People Like Donald Sterling | ThinkProgress

http://www.nytimes.com/2013/06/12/bu...inds.html?_r=0

Feanor, it might help if you pull your head out of the sand.

http://www.nytimes.com/2012/03/06/ed...ata-shows.html

Laws don't change minds. Sorry Feanor.

If you reject that there has been enormous progress against discrimination and racism, then you're being either disingenuous or dishonest with yourself.

If you accept there has been ENORMOUS progress against racism, then you have been living under a rock WITH your head buried in the sand. It has not progressed all that much, but it has certainly changed. It is no longer overt, it is much more covert. The laws have changed, but people minds have not.

I used the phase earlier, "functional racism", asserting that it is greatly reduced. But, "Ah! Bill", you say, "in their hearts whites still hate Blacks and Latinos". To which I respond, "Yeah, some still do, but at least you got to eat lunch with your colleagues".

So because I get to eat lunch with my colleagues somehow that makes life better for me? It does not, especially when at that lunch the waiter didn't really WANT to serve me. What a stupid statement to make.

I repeat: this is my last on the subject.

Before you go, can you send me your address. I want to send you a check so you can buy a clue......from anywhere.