In The Heat of The Night

[JohnMichael]

I am going to throw this out there and I may be sorry I did. When we are talking about prejudice as prejudging a group of individuals and hate based on that prejudging as a basis of racism is not the victim of the hate the more knowledgeable on the subject? Reading about something is not the same as experiencing a thing.

I could no more speak about what it must be like to go to war having never been a soldier regardless of how much I read.

[Sir Terrence the Terrible]

I am going to throw this out there and I may be sorry I did. When we are talking about prejudice as prejudging a group of individuals and hate based on that prejudging as a basis of racism is not the victim of the hate the more knowledgeable on the subject? Reading about something is not the same as experiencing a thing.

I could no more speak about what it must be like to go to war having never been a soldier regardless of how much I read.

JM, this is a good point. Anyone that just plain "intellectualize" racism totally misses the point. Anyone who has never heard the words "I don't want to work with you because nobody will hire a Latino". Anyone who has never heard the words "Sorry, we don't serve half breeds" will never understanding how demeaning it is.

I am going to tell you why I thought Feanor's last statement to me was ignorant as hell. Oprah Winfrey has made FAR, FAR, FAR, FAR more money than I have, but a store salesperson would not even show her a bag.

http://thelede.blogs.nytimes.com/201...ype=blogs&_r=0

The amount of money you make does not make a bit if difference when the prevailing thought is because of your color, you can't afford it.

On my first studio job, I was assigned to a mixing room, but nobody in the all white post production department would work with me. Why, because they said that nobody would hire a latino for a mix job, and partnering with me would hurt their income. So I went on alone doing everything myself(when it usually requires three people). At the end of the year it turns out that my mixing stage made far more money than the next closest mix team. Why? Because I could mix my ass off, and do it at or under budget.

Or let's talk about the when I auditioned for Color Guard Captain in my freshman year of high school. Some white students found it objectionable that a minority would try for this leadership position, and actually put out a petition to prevent me from even auditioning. When I asked why, some folks responded that we have never had a minority as a captain, and they didn't think I could do the job(it was a hard job). Thanks to the Band Director I was given a chance(he was Jewish). Everyone on the 10 man panel gave my audition a perfect 10 across in every area the audition covered, and still students protested. I got the job, and for the next four years our Guard completely dominated the competition. So much for I cannot handle the job. However, as a result of getting that job, I had my locker blown up by a cherry bomb four times, destroying my books(I had to replace them, and it was not cheap) and everything else in the locker. My parents had the money to pay my tuition every year I attended that exclusive school, so money was not the issue. The issue was the students didn't want minorities attending there. If they did, they wanted them to "stay in their place"(whatever the hell that means).

Or how about the time the Cavaliers went to Mississippi for DCI national championships. The entire 128 member corps walked out of three restaurants during championship week because they would not serve the four black guys, and the three latino's that were in the guard. I was the one that had a credit card given to me(so I had the money to buy breakfast, lunch, and dinner at all three of these restaurants), and yet they would not serve me. The amount of money you have in your pockets(or on plastic) does not matter if the racist doesn't think you were worthy to be served.

Throughout my entire life I kept being told no you can't do it, or no you can't have it because of my skin color. So if anyone thinks that just because you are in the 1% that you should not complain about racism, they are dead wrong. Just ask Oprah about that.

In spite of the fact that Magic Johnson is also in the 1%, Donald Sterling had no problem insulting him, and telling his ho for a girlfriend not to bring people like that(Blacks) to HIS games. When you think so low of minorities, money is a non-issue.

This is why I thought Feanor's stupid comment was pretty damn insulting. He just does not seem to get it, and that is because he has never been touched by it. Stand in my shoes for a week, and see if you change your mind about that statement.

[Smokey]

Whites don't need your OK, they have been hating and slandering blacks for nearly 500 years, and Latino's for nearly 300 years.

I agree that whites should take alot of blame as what is happening, but on the same note blacks and latinos are not so blameless and innocent

What about all the shootings, robbery and violence that is happening in blacks and latino community, or emanating from those communities?

I live in urban area and a night does not go by without hearing somebody did drive by shooting, or shoot up a person or place in east part of town. Or if there is a robbery (either a person, bank or business) in town, 4 out of 5 times description is given as minority.

What I mean is we are all in this toghether. If we want to improve things, we have to start with ourselves (that not only apply here, but all over the world)

[Feanor]

These are my final comments on the subject ...

First of all: BLACK RACISM IS NOT VALID: no racism is valid.

It is one thing to explain a phenomenon, it is another thing to excuse, justify or validate it. Black racism is certainly explainable -- emotionally or intellectually -- on the basis of injustices done to Blacks. However Black racism is invalid and counter-effectual for rationally obvious reasons; (sorry if emotions get the way):

• It reinforces still existing white racism
• Like hatred in general, it is psychologically damaging to the person doing the hating
• (Least importantly), it occasionally will harm a white person who him/herself might or might not be racist.

If you believe that Black/Latino/whatever racism, (as opposed to mere anger, resentment), is an acceptable response to white racism, then racism is certainly here for the long haul.

This is not why it is here for the long haul. It is here for the long haul because whites cannot plainly see they are doing anything wrong, or that anything is wrong institutionally. How does one parse racism from anger and resentment? The response to racism IS anger and resentment.

{emphasis added}

This is a slander, (lie). Plenty of whites CAN plainly see that they, (i.e. other whites), are still doing wrong. In the recent past white politicians primarily have been responsible for reducing the "institutional"issues: Blacks don't have to sit at the back of the bus, aren't refused seats at lunch counters, have to drink from separate water fountains, (I can still remember why shock when I observed this for the first time when I visited Florida circa 1959). it is everywhere against the law to discriminate for jobs or housing on the basis of race. Blacks aren't denied entry to the colleges or universities, (the contrary if you take affirmative action into account). A Black is POTUS, (notwithstanding that he's actually mixed race and not an Black American strictly speaking).

If you reject that there has been enormous progress against discrimination and racism, then you're being either disingenuous or dishonest with yourself.

I used the phase earlier, "functional racism", asserting that it is greatly reduced. But, "Ah! Bill", you say, "in their hearts whites still hate Blacks and Latinos". To which I respond, "Yeah, some still do, but at least you got to eat lunch with your colleagues".

I repeat: this is my last on the subject.

[JohnMichael]

I agree that whites should take alot of blame as what is happening, but on the same note blacks and latinos are not so blameless and innocent

What about all the shootings, robbery and violence that is happening in blacks and latino community, or emanating from those communities?

I live in urban area and a night does not go by without hearing somebody did drive by shooting, or shoot up a person or place in east part of town. Or if there is a robbery (either a person, bank or business) in town, 4 out of 5 times description is given as minority.

What I mean is we are all in this toghether. If we want to improve things, we have to start with ourselves (that not only apply here, but all over the world)

When people are denied jobs based on the color of their skin or ethnic background poverty breeds a lack of hope. I think if you were hungry enough you might steal a loaf of bread. If there are no jobs available to you but you could live very well selling drugs you might be tempted. I think racism breeds poverty and poverty increases crime.

Drugs are a great way to numb yourself from a bad life situation. Sadly drugs become either mentally or physically addicting. Living in poverty with no hope and now addicted to drugs you might be capable of doing anything for your next fix. You deal drugs to supply your habit and if someone is cutting into your business you kill them. Poverty becomes in some instances an endless cycle.

[JohnMichael]

These are my final comments on the subject ...

First of all: BLACK RACISM IS NOT VALID: no racism is valid.

It is one thing to explain a phenomenon, it is another thing to excuse, justify or validate it. Black racism is certainly explainable -- emotionally or intellectually -- on the basis of injustices done to Blacks. However Black racism is invalid and counter-effectual for rationally obvious reasons; (sorry if emotions get the way):

• It reinforces still existing white racism
• Like hatred in general, it is psychologically damaging to the person doing the hating
• (Least importantly), it occasionally will harm a white person who him/herself might or might not be racist.

{emphasis added}

This is a slander, (lie). Plenty of whites CAN plainly see that they, (i.e. other whites), are still doing wrong. In the recent past white politicians primarily have been responsible for reducing the "institutional"issues: Blacks don't have to sit at the back of the bus, aren't refused seats at lunch counters, have to drink from separate water fountains, (I can still remember why shock when I observed this for the first time when I visited Florida circa 1959). it is everywhere against the law to discriminate for jobs or housing on the basis of race. Blacks aren't denied entry to the colleges or universities, (the contrary if you take affirmative action into account). A Black is POTUS, (notwithstanding that he's actually mixed race and not an Black American strictly speaking).

If you reject that there has been enormous progress against discrimination and racism, then you're being either disingenuous or dishonest with yourself.

I used the phase earlier, "functional racism", asserting that it is greatly reduced. But, "Ah! Bill", you say, "in their hearts whites still hate Blacks and Latinos". To which I respond, "Yeah, some still do, but at least you got to eat lunch with your colleagues".

I repeat: this is my last on the subject.

Remember when you speak of politicians reducing institutionalized racism it is important to remember that not all politicians wanted those laws enacted. It has mostly been the Democrats that have fought for social change. Just because a law changes does not mean men's hearts change.

In some ways these laws made things better superficially but we never did resolve the race issues. Seeing the activities of the Tea party and their new voice of racism saddens me. A bunch of scared white folks who got theirs and do not want women and minorities to become equals. Damn and I thought things were getting better. People did not improve because of a change of heart but due to a change in law.

[JohnMichael]

Being pasty white I never experienced racism but being gay I have dealt with a lot of prejudice. As a white man I could get the job but later when they figured out I was gay I lost the job. Going to a predominately white catholic school I was the minority and was treated as such. I was taunted and tormented for being something I had not even completely figured out for myself.

Back in the days when they could ask questions such as are you married were often the turning point of an interview. All would be going well and the employer was interested when that question would be asked. Being in my mid 20's to 30's and not being married the whole tone of the interview would change and end abruptly.

I never had a cross burned in my yard but the phone would ring at night with death threats. I might be walking to work when a car would pull up and begin shouting f@g and c@cksucker which then might elicit interesting questions from people I was walking past on the sidewalk. If I did go downtown to the one gay bar which became gay after the older regulars left about 10 PM I knew it would take all my skills to get home. Pick up trucks of rednecks would show up at closing time to harass. Boy I could drive those back alleys and make turns that the trucks could not. Once home I would hide my car in case the pursuit would continue.

I know some of you will not like this post based on reactions to other posts I have made but believe me I know what being prejudged is about. I know how it kills your will to succeed because it is just a matter of time before the rug gets pulled out anyway.

This does not even cover prejudice in one's family. Coming out can be a whole nightmare on it's own.

[Feanor]

Remember when you speak of politicians reducing institutionalized racism it is important to remember that not all politicians wanted those laws enacted. It has mostly been the Democrats that have fought for social change. Just because a law changes does not mean men's hearts change.

In some ways these laws made things better superficially but we never did resolve the race issues. Seeing the activities of the Tea party and their new voice of racism saddens me. A bunch of scared white folks who got theirs and do not want women and minorities to become equals. Damn and I thought things were getting better. People did not improve because of a change of heart but due to a change in law.

JM, I hope nothing I said caused Sir Terrence to misconstrue my meaning, nor that I have misconstrued his.

In no way do I mean to minimize White racism that still exists. I did point out that effective discrimination is much reduced, but I didn't mean to imply that the nation has gone far enough.

What I construed from Sir T's comments was that Black or Latino racism, (generalized hatred of, or discrimination towards, Whites), was NOT ONLY explainable/understandable BUT ALSO justified/valid. This I reject on the very practical grounds that it is not only deplorable in itself but also COUNTER-EFFECTIVE in terms of reducing residual White racism.

[Feanor]

Being pasty white I never experienced racism but being gay I have dealt with a lot of prejudice. As a white man I could get the job but later when they figured out I was gay I lost the job. Going to a predominately white catholic school I was the minority and was treated as such. I was taunted and tormented for being something I had not even completely figured out for myself.

Back in the days when they could ask questions such as are you married were often the turning point of an interview. All would be going well and the employer was interested when that question would be asked. Being in my mid 20's to 30's and not being married the whole tone of the interview would change and end abruptly.

I never had a cross burned in my yard but the phone would ring at night with death threats. I might be walking to work when a car would pull up and begin shouting f@g and c@cksucker which then might elicit interesting questions from people I was walking past on the sidewalk. If I did go downtown to the one gay bar which became gay after the older regulars left about 10 PM I knew it would take all my skills to get home. Pick up trucks of rednecks would show up at closing time to harass. Boy I could drive those back alleys and make turns that the trucks could not. Once home I would hide my car in case the pursuit would continue.

I know some of you will not like this post based on reactions to other posts I have made but believe me I know what being prejudged is about. I know how it kills your will to succeed because it is just a matter of time before the rug gets pulled out anyway.

This does not even cover prejudice in one's family. Coming out can be a whole nightmare on it's own.

All deplorable, JM, and I'd like to believe these things wouldn't happen in the community where I lofe, (though I suppose some do from time to time).

But my question is, Do you hate all 'straight' people in general as a result?

[JohnMichael]

All deplorable, JM, and I'd like to believe these things wouldn't happen in the community where I lofe, (though I suppose some do from time to time).

But my question is, Do you hate all 'straight' people in general as a result?

No but I am still very guarded. I do not trust straight people at first meeting. I recently started a new job and my levels of anxiety are high. Sure there are some I hate who went out of their way to do me harm. Having been a victim of a hate crime where the unthinkable happened I do wish for the death of my violator.

If you have not lived under the oppression of prejudice it is tough to understand. It can be as small as an uncle who would buy everyone a Christmas present but you. It could be a physical attack at work but since you have been told any more gay issues and you would be terminated you take the attacks in stride. After all you made the mistake of reporting the death threats that were drawn on the wall of the locker room. Yes I am leery.

[Smokey]

When people are denied jobs based on the color of their skin or ethnic background poverty breeds a lack of hope. I think if you were hungry enough you might steal a loaf of bread. If there are no jobs available to you but you could live very well selling drugs you might be tempted. I think racism breeds poverty and poverty increases crime.

Drugs are a great way to numb yourself from a bad life situation. Sadly drugs become either mentally or physically addicting. Living in poverty with no hope and now addicted to drugs you might be capable of doing anything for your next fix. You deal drugs to supply your habit and if someone is cutting into your business you kill them. Poverty becomes in some instances an endless cycle.

I agree with your statement that racism breed poverty, and poverty breed crime. And if you include drugs in the mix, we will have an expolsive mix.

I also believe that alot of crimes happening is also due to a person upbringing (that is true for every race). If there is no father figure or strict authority in the house, the child have more tendecy to stray than the one that have a butt kicking authority waiting for them at house.

Sorry to say that alot of crime commited by minorities fit former above scenario than latter family scenario.

[Sir Terrence the Terrible]

These are my final comments on the subject ...

Thank goodness, because on this subject, you can't even buy a clue.

First of all: BLACK RACISM IS NOT VALID: no racism is valid.

It is one thing to explain a phenomenon, it is another thing to excuse, justify or validate it. Black racism is certainly explainable -- emotionally or intellectually -- on the basis of injustices done to Blacks. However Black racism is invalid and counter-effectual for rationally obvious reasons; (sorry if emotions get the way):

• It reinforces still existing white racism
• Like hatred in general, it is psychologically damaging to the person doing the hating
• (Least importantly), it occasionally will harm a white person who him/herself might or might not be racist.

Oh please, my boots stink and are nearly covered with.......your crap. Whites have never needed blacks to do anything for them to dislike them. Whites think blacks are inferior in every way to whites, and based on that - should stay in their place. That is the prevailing thought process since slavery.

{emphasis added}

This is a slander, (lie). Plenty of whites CAN plainly see that they, (i.e. other whites), are still doing wrong.

Then instead of sitting on their hands with their mouths closed, why don't they do or say something? I tell you why they don't. Even if whites have no issues with blacks, they do not want to give up the power and privilege of being the so called "boss" of this country. So you can call "slander" all you want, but that is just a smokescreen that can easily fanned away.

In the recent past white politicians primarily have been responsible for reducing the "institutional"issues: Blacks don't have to sit at the back of the bus, aren't refused seats at lunch counters, have to drink from separate water fountains, (I can still remember why shock when I observed this for the first time when I visited Florida circa 1959). it is everywhere against the law to discriminate for jobs or housing on the basis of race. Blacks aren't denied entry to the colleges or universities, (the contrary if you take affirmative action into account). A Black is POTUS, (notwithstanding that he's actually mixed race and not an Black American strictly speaking).

Have you been hiding under a rock since the civil rights bill has been signed? Racism does not have to be back of the bus, or lunch counter. That is overt racism that is roundly frowned upon. Today it is more insidious and subtle. If I see a resume with the name Tasha Williams, or Kenisha Jones, they toss the resume in the trash, no matter who qualified they are. 20/20 pointed this out YEARS ago. Harassing and jailing the primary money maker and head of the household(which is called economic warfare) is the new racism. Today it is so institutional and deeply rooted in subtleties, that is skips the radar of most whites - who now thing we are post racial(are you kidding?). You obviously have not been keeping up, but Affirmative Action has been slowly eroding away for the last decade. No longer can you use race to weight admission. You can't do it in California, Michigan, Texas, and any other public educational institution. So you think because it is against the law to discriminate in jobs and housing that they don't do it? That is insanely ignorant of you. You ever heard of Donald Sterling?

The Devastating Impact Of Housing Discrimination Perpetrated By People Like Donald Sterling | ThinkProgress

http://www.nytimes.com/2013/06/12/bu...inds.html?_r=0

Feanor, it might help if you pull your head out of the sand.

http://www.nytimes.com/2012/03/06/ed...ata-shows.html

Laws don't change minds. Sorry Feanor.

If you reject that there has been enormous progress against discrimination and racism, then you're being either disingenuous or dishonest with yourself.

If you accept there has been ENORMOUS progress against racism, then you have been living under a rock WITH your head buried in the sand. It has not progressed all that much, but it has certainly changed. It is no longer overt, it is much more covert. The laws have changed, but people minds have not.

I used the phase earlier, "functional racism", asserting that it is greatly reduced. But, "Ah! Bill", you say, "in their hearts whites still hate Blacks and Latinos". To which I respond, "Yeah, some still do, but at least you got to eat lunch with your colleagues".

So because I get to eat lunch with my colleagues somehow that makes life better for me? It does not, especially when at that lunch the waiter didn't really WANT to serve me. What a stupid statement to make.

I repeat: this is my last on the subject.

Before you go, can you send me your address. I want to send you a check so you can buy a clue......from anywhere.

[Sir Terrence the Terrible]

JM, I hope nothing I said caused Sir Terrence to misconstrue my meaning, nor that I have misconstrued his.

In no way do I mean to minimize White racism that still exists. I did point out that effective discrimination is much reduced, but I didn't mean to imply that the nation has gone far enough.

What I construed from Sir T's comments was that Black or Latino racism, (generalized hatred of, or discrimination towards, Whites), was NOT ONLY explainable/understandable BUT ALSO justified/valid. This I reject on the very practical grounds that it is not only deplorable in itself but also COUNTER-EFFECTIVE in terms of reducing residual White racism.

There is a very thin line between hatred of whites, and profound anger with them.

Racism

prejudice, discrimination, or antagonism directed against someone of a different race based on the belief that one's own race is superior.

In my entire lifetime, I have never heard Blacks or Latino's say their race was superior to whites. They say it is EQUAL, but never said it is better. It seems you do not have a very good grasp of what racism actually means, or you would not make such asinine statements. Blacks and Latino's don't necessarily hate whites, but they sure are mad as hell about how they have been treated by them. They should be.

Reducing racism cannot come from anywhere else except from the white community. They control the power structure of this country, and they essentially make its rules. There is nothing a black or Latino can say to a white person that changes their biased perspective. There is nothing blacks and latinos can DO to change that biased perspective either. What you are attempting is to try and be fair, and that is hard to do when things are so out of balance. In order for equality to exist, whites MUST give up seats at the table. Unfortunately they are not willing to do that, hence why racism is as prominent today as it way yesterday(albeit quite different).

[Feanor]

(Fine, make a liar out of me ... )

There is a very thin line between hatred of whites, and profound anger with them.

However, the thin line should be observed.

Racism

prejudice, discrimination, or antagonism directed against someone of a different race based on the belief that one's own race is superior.

In my entire lifetime, I have never heard Blacks or Latino's say their race was superior to whites. They say it is EQUAL, but never said it is better. It seems you do not have a very good grasp of what racism actually means, or you would not make such asinine statements. Blacks and Latino's don't necessarily hate whites, but they sure are mad as hell about how they have been treated by them. They should be.

Reducing racism cannot come from anywhere else except from the white community. They control the power structure of this country, and they essentially make its rules. There is nothing a black or Latino can say to a white person that changes their biased perspective. There is nothing blacks and latinos can DO to change that biased perspective either. What you are attempting is to try and be fair, and that is hard to do when things are so out of balance. In order for equality to exist, whites MUST give up seats at the table. Unfortunately they are not willing to do that, hence why racism is as prominent today as it way yesterday(albeit quite different).

The above definition seems to say that to be racism, prejudice, discrimination, or antagonism must be based on a sense of one's racial superiority. Why necessarily on a sense of superiority? This implies that prejudice, discrimination, or antagonism are acceptable otherwise. Ah! But this seems to be your whole point: tit-for-tat prejudice, discrimination, or antagonism is OK. Well I don't agree: prejudice, discrimination, or antagonism are not acceptable under any circumstance.

You must have lead a sheltered live if you've never heard a Black or Latino claim racial superiority; even I have hear the odd Black say that occasionally.

The days of affirmative action are coming to an end. Minorities must EARN their seats at the table: fortunately a good many have done so already and more are doing so all the time.

Even if Blacks and Latinos could do nothing to reduce white's bias, for sure they can do a lot to REINFOCE white bias.

Quit while your behind, Sir T; (I'll bet you won't because you never, ever concede that you're wrong). Everything you say tends to show that you are the racist around here.

[Feanor]

Further Black racism, this from Wiki based on Federal government statistics, HERE ...

Racially motivated hate crime

The federal government publishes a list annually of Hate Crime Statistics, 2009. Also published by the federal government is the Known Offender's Race by Bias Motivation, 2009. According to the Federal Bureau of Investigation Uniform Crime Report database, in 2010 58% of hate crime offenders were Latino or white, 18% of offenders were black, 8.9% were of individuals of multiple races and 1% of offenders were Native Americans. The report also reveals that 48% of all hate crime offenders were motivated by the victim's race, while 18% were based on the victim's religion, and another 18% were based on the victim's sexual orientation. The report states that among hate crime offenses motivated by race, 70% were composed of anti-black bias, while 17.7% were of anti-white bias, and 5% were of anti-Asian or Pacific Islander bias.

As we see from this, Blacks are responsible for their share of racially motivated hate crimes.

Will Sir T will argue that if its Black/Latino on White then the stats are bogus because Black/Latino on White can't be racist?

[JohnMichael]

Further Black racism, this from Wiki based on Federal government statistics, HERE ...



As we see from this, Blacks are responsible for their share of racially motivated hate crimes.

Will Sir T will argue that if its Black/Latino on White then the stats are bogus because Black/Latino on White can't be racist?

I find it odd that whites and Latinos are added in together. I also find it odd if you underlined the 18% of black hate crimes. I would have to say whites commit the higher level of hate crimes. I know as a part of the 18% victims of hate crimes based on sexuality my attacker was white. I have never heard of a straight white man dragged down a country road chained to the back of a pickup truck.

[Hyfi]

So since this thread started, I have seen the movie running 8 more times at least on the same channel. Have to start wondering who runs the station.

After seeing the bolded definition of Racism, I can say I am not a Racist. But I do harbor negative feelings for certain groups of people who spend all their energy perpetuating what they complain about.

Just look at Furgeson. I hate trigger happy police, but it's nothing new. Gil Scott Heron sang about it in B Movie back in the 70s. But what are the facts now after a young man was shot to death in a violent way.

2 weeks of Violence, Destruction, Looting, and more Violence all in protest of what? Yeah, Violence. If you continue to act like animals, you continue to get seen as and treated like animals. Maybe all that energy could be used to get themselves out of the situation they are in.

What happened years ago after the Million Man March? Not much if anything. Almost nobody went home after marching and turned their communities around. I would be willing to bet that if you polled 50 inner city black teenagers today, at least 40 of them would not have a clue what you were talking about if asked "What was the Million Man March?"

So fingers can be pointed, but those finger pointers need to take a good look in the mirror and do something about the stigma and bad name they continue to give themselves and their communities.

There is no excuse that validates the behavior that goes on in the cities and increasingly in the suburbs. I can't turn on the news without hearing about all the senseless murders in Philly over a couple bucks. So if as a whole, a certain group of people want to be respected and treated the same as certain other groups, it's time to stop blaming the past and start changing their image and behavior that keeps them in the situation they are currently in.

[JohnMichael]

I am curious as to why this thread was closed.