Wire is Wire - The Proof

[Monstrous Mike]

You choose analogies that make cable yeasayers seem ridiculous. The following would be representative: Claiming to have heard a difference in two cables is analogous to claiming to have talked with the dead. People who claim they have talked with the dead are lying or delusional. Cable yeasayers are lying or delusional.

You never choose a complimentary analogy, such as .... Claiming to have heard a difference in two cables is analogous to claiming a believe in the hereafter. Those who believe in the hereafter have high morale values. Cable yeasayers have high morale values.

How about some balance?

For the record, I do not think it is ridiculous to think someone can communicate with the dead. That is a personal or religious matter and there may be something to it, however, there is simply no evidence other than personal accounts. What I don't like are guys like John Edwards who takes money from people by exploiting this unproven possibility. He has been caught many times on his method of "talking to the dead" which is really a form of hot or cold readings.

And I have never used the words lying or delusional when describing a cable believer. All I am saying is that there is no proof, senses can be fallible, actual differences can be caused by other factors, and emotions play a large part in subjective assessments.

The only real difference between me and cable believer is that the cable believer has positively concluded that his cable has improved his system sound while I am saying let's look at all the other factors first, before reaching a conclusion.

[Rikki]

For the record, I do not think it is ridiculous to think someone can communicate with the dead. That is a personal or religious matter and there may be something to it, however, there is simply no evidence other than personal accounts.

But you don't believe that personal accounts hold weight in audiophile land ? I don't get it.

senses can be fallible, actual differences can be caused by other factors, and emotions play a large part in subjective assessments.

Senses are not perfect. But in my test for example, I had no emotions one way or the other. If anything I wanted to hear a difference since I spent $75 on the cables. Everything in the test was equal (i.e. the music, the room accoustics, etc.). It's very simple actually, there was no difference in sound. If there was a difference I would have heard it.

[Monstrous Mike]

But you don't believe that personal accounts hold weight in audiophile land ? I don't get it.

I didn't say that personal accounts don't hold weight. What I am saying is that if you take 100 personal accounts, a certain percentage will be accurate, a certain percentage will be close, a certain percentage will be off a little, and a certain percentage will be right out to lunch.

What these percentages are is anybody's guess. But if you give me a personal account I have no way of knowing which category you fall into so I can't take your personal account to heart. I would expect that you feel the same way about me although when most people learn I have not heard differences in wires they automatically put me in the "out to lunch" category.

I had no emotions one way or the other.

I know a lot of you feel this way. We would all like to think we approach our in home testing with a completely objective frame of mind. However, it has been conclusively shown that there are many factors that we are not conciously aware of that can influence us. That doesn't mean you can't accurately assess anything in your audio system, just that there are pitfalls that could manifest themselves without you even knowing it.

[pctower]

I didn't say that personal accounts don't hold weight. What I am saying is that if you take 100 personal accounts, a certain percentage will be accurate, a certain percentage will be close, a certain percentage will be off a little, and a certain percentage will be right out to lunch.

What these percentages are is anybody's guess. But if you give me a personal account I have no way of knowing which category you fall into so I can't take your personal account to heart. I would expect that you feel the same way about me although when most people learn I have not heard differences in wires they automatically put me in the "out to lunch" category.



I know a lot of you feel this way. We would all like to think we approach our in home testing with a completely objective frame of mind. However, it has been conclusively shown that there are many factors that we are not conciously aware of that can influence us. That doesn't mean you can't accurately assess anything in your audio system, just that there are pitfalls that could manifest themselves without you even knowing it.

"We would all like to think we approach our in home testing with a completely objective frame of mind. "

Make that "all" minus one.

I could care less if I approach home "testing" with an objective mind. The only "testing" I'm doing is what brings me pleasure. If I were focused on whether I'm "objective" or not, the pleasure would be gone. Anything that gets in the way of pleasure in my soundroom is strickly forbidden in accordance with a scrupulously enforced zero tolereance policy.

[okiemax]

For the record, I do not think it is ridiculous to think someone can communicate with the dead. That is a personal or religious matter and there may be something to it, however, there is simply no evidence other than personal accounts. What I don't like are guys like John Edwards who takes money from people by exploiting this unproven possibility. He has been caught many times on his method of "talking to the dead" which is really a form of hot or cold readings.

And I have never used the words lying or delusional when describing a cable believer. All I am saying is that there is no proof, senses can be fallible, actual differences can be caused by other factors, and emotions play a large part in subjective assessments.

The only real difference between me and cable believer is that the cable believer has positively concluded that his cable has improved his system sound while I am saying let's look at all the other factors first, before reaching a conclusion.

Yes, I know you have never accused cable yeasayers of lying.I should have left "lying" out of the analogy. I thought you had implied that they are delusional, although you may not have used the word "delusional."

I cannot communicate with the dead, and doubt anyone who claims they can. However, I occasionally imagine conversations with my dead parents. Something will happen that reminds me of my Father, for example, and I will think about what he would say and what I would say. He lives on in my mind.

An individual's claim about hearing a difference in two cables can be verified through blinded testing. But verifying subjective experience with objective testing is not a common consumer practice. Why? Because people have found that relying on their senses works. Trying to persuade people that their senses are fallible contradicts their experience, and may be unwelcomed instead of appreciated.

BTW, I agree with your post on American Splendor and Adaptation. I really enjoyed these movies.

[mtrycraft]

But verifying subjective experience with objective testing is not a common consumer practice. Why? Because people have found that relying on their senses works.


Yes, and no. Multiple senses 9in combination can confuse the issue when you are checking small differences. That is well know. Subjective experience, unchallenged, is what the marketeers are hoping for.


Trying to persuade people that their senses are fallible contradicts their experience, and may be unwelcomed instead of appreciated.

Because they have not been tested, or know better how your senses can mislead you in some instances. Why would the marketeer tell you this? He wants to sell more, not less.

[Monstrous Mike]

I cannot communicate with the dead, and doubt anyone who claims they can. However, I occasionally imagine conversations with my dead parents. Something will happen that reminds me of my Father, for example, and I will think about what he would say and what I would say. He lives on in my mind.

I'm sorry to hear about your parents. I have both of mine and I certainly appreciate them more now then when I was a teenager. I have no problem accepting that you still have personal relationship with them through memories or even conversations. Like I said, this is a personal matter. However, if somebody like John Edwards says he is talking your parents for you, would this not annoy you?

Trying to persuade people that their senses are fallible contradicts their experience, and may be unwelcomed instead of appreciated.

Well actually, it's not the senses that are fallible. It's the interpretation of the information that the senses provide us that causes problems. I agree that this level of analysis for simple home audio enjoyment is probably overkill and most people should just buy what they can afford and be happy with the sound.

The trouble starts when people categorically state things like: "My JPS Labs speakerwires sound better than zip cord because of their proprietary crystal lattice structure, doing recommended burn in period and the mathematical analysis of Jon Risch."