Wire is Wire - The Proof

[E-Stat]

no

(small problem with your instructions, responses must be at least 5 characters on this site )

It's amazing how much misspelled ink mtry spent answering this question. While my experience is different, I applaud appreciate your concise alacrity.

rw

[Rikki]

Update:
I have some new equipment and re-did the test. My conclusion still holds true. Wire is Wire...

I’ve concluded that high end cables/speaker wire are a waste of money and does not significantly improve the sound of your system. As long as your wire has a “solid connection” meaning the wire is not broken or have crimps in it, 10 cent per foot speaker wire performs just as well as $10+ per foot wire.

I now have a Rotel RSP-1069 pre-processor and Rotel RMB-1075 5 channel amp. I've had them for several years. I took my time with the test. The Rotel equipment was a big upgrade over the Yamaha $700 receiver that I originally had and did significantly improve my sound. So yes, money spent on upgrading components is well worth it. I still have the same set of Klipsch RF-7 speakers - I still love the sound of them - especially for the price.

I tried the same test I did at the beginning of this thread. Hooked up the Monster Z1 cables that I have to the mains. I then (over several months at different times) swapped out the Monster cable with some cheap radio shack wire 16 gauge wire from a spool (cut to same length as the monster cable - 10ft). Guess what NO DIFFERENCE in sound quality.

Many of you may have much more expensive components than I do - that's fine - the same test would still hold true. Expensive wire will not improve your system. Go ahead and try it for yourself if you want to waste time/money. On second thought, please spend your money on components not wire to improve your system. I'm begging you.

P.S. The same also holds true with HDMI cable. Don't spend hundreds of dollars on cables. I'm trying to save you guys some money in these tough times.

[E-Stat]

Many of you may have much more expensive components than I do - that's fine - the same test would still hold true.

It's certainly true that comparing one flavor of zip cord to another would indeed yield similar results. Hopefully, that didn't take you eight years to ascertain!

Expensive wire will not improve your system.

So what other cables have you auditioned and in what systems?

[JohnMichael]

Rikki did not lose our number. Has your hearing remained the same over 8 years? Have your ever tried solid core or a higher quality stranded cable? I find your number and types of cables used limiting.

Welcome back!

[Poultrygeist]

Are there double blind studies to support the advantages of expensive wires?

[E-Stat]

Are there double blind studies to support the advantages of expensive wires?

According to mtry's vast references, only with mediocre cable and of course with a box that necessarily shares a common ground (to eliminate switching transients) which completely negates the test.

You end up comparing both cables to - both cables.

Parlor games are fine for some things. I'll use my senses instead.

[Rikki]

It's certainly true that comparing one flavor of zip cord to another would indeed yield similar results. Hopefully, that didn't take you eight years to ascertain!


So what other cables have you auditioned and in what systems?

What reminded me of this thread - I was at a high end stereo shop last weekend and the guy was trying to sell me a bunch of Esoteric speaker cables. I told him I wanted to hook my cheap wire up to his best system and hear the difference vs. the Esoteric wires. The salesman was unwilling to try this test. Why ? Because it would reveal the scam. Marketing people invented expensive wire not engineers.

The only thing that's changed in the 8 years since the original post is the advent of HDMI cables to handle both video and sound. That's actually been a great idea and a great technological advancement in cables. However, $100 HDMI cable works exactly the same as $10 HDMI cable. Same exact thin wire inside both products. Different HDMI specs 1.2 vs. 1.4 etc. can carry different info - so that could make a difference - but the sound and picture quality from any given 1.2 cable will always equal that of any other 1.2 cable.

Are there double blind studies to support the advantages of expensive wires?

I have never seen any. If I win the lottery, I will fly everyone on this forum to a neutral site and we can do some blind tests. Or since we're there we could just hang out, forget the cable tests, and enjoy the music since I am positive I am right.

P.S. When they cost hundreds of dollars they like to refer to it as "cable" not "wire". How dare you!

[E-Stat]

I told him I wanted to hook my cheap wire up to his best system and hear the difference vs. the Esoteric wires. The salesman was unwilling to try this test.

Good dealers will allow you to audition cables in your own system. That's how I've ended up with most of my cabling. With some Blue Jeans cable and Belden 89259 I terminated myself, I didn't bother auditioning first.

However, $100 HDMI cable works exactly the same as $10 HDMI cable. Same exact thin wire inside both products. Different HDMI specs 1.2 vs. 1.4 etc. can carry different info - so that could make a difference - but the sound and picture quality from any given 1.2 cable will always equal that of any other 1.2 cable.

Different animal altogether. Since this is a basically a network cable delivering data packets, I largely agree.

There is no potential for the time smearing experienced using high effective dielectric constant audio cabling. Shielding against RFI continues to make a difference, however, with any kind of cable to prevent interaction with surrounding components.

[JohnMichael]

What reminded me of this thread - I was at a high end stereo shop last weekend and the guy was trying to sell me a bunch of Esoteric speaker cables. I told him I wanted to hook my cheap wire up to his best system and hear the difference vs. the Esoteric wires. The salesman was unwilling to try this test. Why ? Because it would reveal the scam. Marketing people invented expensive wire not engineers.


P.S. When they cost hundreds of dollars they like to refer to it as "cable" not "wire". How dare you!

I have spent a lot of time finding the best combination of IC's and speaker cables for the most accurate sound to my ears. I am sure the dealer went to as much trouble with his state of the art system. Once you have achieved the best level of sound for your demonstration gear I can imagine why he would not welcome unfamiliar cable.

[Florian]

Hi Rikki,

if you are ever in the area of southern Germany or Switzerland i will gladly show you the difference with a double blind listening test using either of the two systems:

System 1:

Apogee Acoustics Scintilla
Lamm 2.1 Monoblocks
Silvaweld Reference Preamp

Two cables for our testing are the Magnan Reference Speaker Cables and the Alphacore Goertz Ribbon

System 2:

Apogee Acoustics Grand
CAT SL1
CAT JL 2
NAT SE2SE
Monarchy NM24
Monarchy DIP

We can do the testing using analog or digital. With blinded eyes or open, it won't matter. 4 out of 4 people hear the difference clearly. Unfortunately, my Magnan cable lost.... but not by much.

[frenchmon]

Florian....can I get that same test if I am in your area? But I believe there is a difference....I just want to listen to your system

[markw]

How lame is this forum that one has to go back and re-open a thread that's been dead and buried for over eight years?

Nothing new to say?

[JohnMichael]

How lame is this forum that one has to go back and re-open a thread that's been dead and buried for over eight years?

Nothing new to say?

The OP thought he had gained some new insights.

[markw]

The OP thought he had gained some new insights.

But that was over eight years ago. I've got grandkids that have been born and started school in that time.

[JohnMichael]

But that was over eight years ago. I've got grandkids that have been born and started school in that time.

Yes after 8 years he bought some new equipment and used the same old wires for the same failed conclusion.

[markw]

Well, OP gave it a considred try and still came to the same conclusion. What more can be said?

I'd say eight years is a pretty good try, wouldn't you?

[RGA]

Cable debates. Geez.

Every place I've ever been to will let you take the cables home first. Even the big box chains like Best Buy and Future shop have 100% no questions asked return policies of either 14 days or 30 days on cables. Try them - perform DBTs and then return them if you don't like them or think they do anything.

Cables are glorified tone controls - what one cable does in one system may do ZILCH in another and I've used the cable logic fault numerous times.

You have a stereo system that has a turntable, CD transport, DAC, Preamplifier, Power amplifier, Loudspeakers. All form different manufacturers.

Turntable has internal wiring (called A) and let's be generous and assume the Interconnect out to the preamp is the same.

CD transport has internal wiring B

DAC has internal wiring C

Preamp has internal wiring D

Power amp has internal wiring E

Loudspeakers have internal wiring F

This system has 6 different cables (which in theory all sound different than each other)

Most audiophiles don't seem to use exactly the same interconnects and speaker wires - so let's split the difference and say they use the same Interconnects throughout (cables G) but different speaker wires (cable H)

Now we're up to 8 different sounding wires.

[As an aside this doesn't even begin to mention the mass number of audiophiles who mix and match components like tube preamps with SS power amps from designers who think the other design is wrong and these audiophiles are basically trying to press two opposed magnets together. Ie - wildly opposed "voices"]

To me two results come from this laughable mess of cables.

1) all the bloody different wires cause a reduction to the weakest link. I don't see how an expensive IC is going to fix the 3 cent per meter cheap junk wiring inside the amplifier or CD player. And 99% of all mainstream stuff uses the cheapest ass wiring that is humanly possible to use - so of course people have trouble telling ICs or speaker cables apart - assuming their was some greatness to be had in an expensive speaker cable once it hits the pennies a ton wiring inside most loudspeakers that "goodness" has become irrevocably sullied.

2) Even if all the components in the systems use high quality cables it still has 6-8 competing voicing vying to come through to the listener. Which reduces ALL cables to mere tone controls often at ludicrously expensive price points. The MIT cable that sounds better in one guys discombobulated 8 wire system may sound utterly dreadful in someone else's discombobulated 8 wire system. Then it becomes a bit of marketing and brand hype. The big fat speaker wire looks cool and carries a hefty price tag but if the components are using cheap dredge then I scratch the old noggin.

Some speaker makers are selling their own speaker cable cables like Zu presumably with their own wires inside their speakers and you can buy the exact same speaker cable and interconnect cable. Logically that makes a lot of sense.

Audio Note is the only company I am aware of where you can buy a complete stereo and pretty much get the exact same wiring from cartrdige to speaker voice coil right down tot he soldering material and even the transformer windings.

So you get 99.99% Silver Litz inside the amplifiers Cd players, turntables, cartridge wiring, to transformer windings, to outboard crossovers on the speakers hardwired right into the speaker voice coil which is also wound with the wiring and the soldering material is also 99.99% Litz and the very capacitors throughout the chain are made of silver as well as ALL connectors on all components are also silver and power chords are also 99.99% silver Litz.

The 6-8 cables(not to mention soldering materials, caps, connectors (gold plated???) and the whole weakest link factor and glorified tone control is now 1 cable made of the exact same purity and sonic purity throughout - there is no tone control.

And as great as that all is - in order to do it means you have to buy a system from them - and not just any system but one of those 6 figure jobs starting with at least a 3. eesh.

So play with the cables and buy or not but with the whole mix and match aspect of most systems you can't say much about their transferability across systems.

[Smokey]

Cable debates. Geez.

Every place I've ever been to will let you take the cables home first. Even the big box chains like Best Buy and Future shop have 100% no questions asked return policies of either 14 days or 30 days on cables. Try them - perform DBTs and then return them if you don't like them or think they do anything.

Cables are glorified tone controls - what one cable does in one system may do ZILCH in another and I've used the cable logic fault numerous times.

You have a stereo system that has a turntable, CD transport, DAC, Preamplifier, Power amplifier, Loudspeakers. All form different manufacturers.

Turntable has internal wiring (called A) and let's be generous and assume the Interconnect out to the preamp is the same.

CD transport has internal wiring B

DAC has internal wiring C

Preamp has internal wiring D

Power amp has internal wiring E

Loudspeakers have internal wiring F

This system has 6 different cables (which in theory all sound different than each other)

Most audiophiles don't seem to use exactly the same interconnects and speaker wires - so let's split the difference and say they use the same Interconnects throughout (cables G) but different speaker wires (cable H)

Now we're up to 8 different sounding wires.

[As an aside this doesn't even begin to mention the mass number of audiophiles who mix and match components like tube preamps with SS power amps from designers who think the other design is wrong and these audiophiles are basically trying to press two opposed magnets together. Ie - wildly opposed "voices"]

To me two results come from this laughable mess of cables.

1) all the bloody different wires cause a reduction to the weakest link. I don't see how an expensive IC is going to fix the 3 cent per meter cheap junk wiring inside the amplifier or CD player. And 99% of all mainstream stuff uses the cheapest ass wiring that is humanly possible to use - so of course people have trouble telling ICs or speaker cables apart - assuming their was some greatness to be had in an expensive speaker cable once it hits the pennies a ton wiring inside most loudspeakers that "goodness" has become irrevocably sullied.

2) Even if all the components in the systems use high quality cables it still has 6-8 competing voicing vying to come through to the listener. Which reduces ALL cables to mere tone controls often at ludicrously expensive price points. The MIT cable that sounds better in one guys discombobulated 8 wire system may sound utterly dreadful in someone else's discombobulated 8 wire system. Then it becomes a bit of marketing and brand hype. The big fat speaker wire looks cool and carries a hefty price tag but if the components are using cheap dredge then I scratch the old noggin.

This is a good analysis, and sadly at the same time highlight the slipery-slope and ugly side of cables having "sound" argument

[blackraven]

Florian, which Alpha Core cables do you have?

[Poultrygeist]

Here are some interesting sound improvement techniques. Anyone tried freezing their cables?

Free sound improving techniques

[JohnMichael]

Florian, which Alpha Core cables do you have?

This reminds me I have not used my Alpha Core MI1 with my Krell S-300i. I was thinking about buying some MI2 because I read the highs are better. Of course both my speakers are bi-wire so I will need to check the cost. The MI1 had great bass and midrange with a dark top end but loved the midrange.

[JohnMichael]

I hooked up the AlphaCore speaker cables last night. I had last used them with the Onkyo A-9555 Class D and they were not a good match. They sing with the Krell. I had forgotten how good they are. Everything was sounding so good that I listened to music until 2:30 AM sadly I was up at 5:30 AM.

I was so impressed that I ordered a bi-wire pair. I ordered the shotgunned pair of MI1. The cables will have single pair of banana plugs at the amp end and double pairs at the speaker ends. While I was online I ordered a new pair of Micropurl IC's.

As good as the AlphaCore cables sound I look forward to the bi-wire pair and having the metal jumpers removed. Thanks Florian and blackraven for rekindling my interest in AlphaCore cables.