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  1. #26
    Music Junkie E-Stat's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Pat D
    He has copies of a great many studies and he reads 'em. Trust me, I've seen 'em.
    It's a shame, however, that he is incapable of producing them. Perhaps you can fill the missing gap. What I am referring to is references wherein:

    1. He fails to note the cost of the comparative cables, i.e. the Tag McLaren reference to support his $2.00 cables are fine position (one was in excess of $100, and the other about $300) and then uses his childish "you can't comprehend" defensive posture - no my friend, you CAN'T READ.

    or

    2. First says, then is unable to support the assertion that there are numerous (okay well zero) references where the gear reported is better than receiver and bookshelf receiver. I would be very interested to see even a single test using your fine Quad 'stats and something a cut above mediocre receivers.


    rw

  2. #27
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    Well there you have it! How could one argue with your conclusions?
    I'm glad your happy!
    Remember, different isn't always better, but it is different.
    Keep things as simple as possible, but not too simple.
    Let your ears decide for you!

  3. #28
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    Quote Originally Posted by Rikki
    ... but I'd just love to get you all in a room and do some "blind tests", Like not tell you if you are listening to 10 cent wire or $100 wire. I'd bet that would prove my point even further.

    Naw, then they will pick your components apart, your music, your room, something. their bad hair day, any excuse would do.
    But, what you propose has been done for over 20 + years with no audible differences. Only fools reinvent the wheel or chase the rainbow.
    mtrycrafts

  4. #29
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    Quote Originally Posted by DMK
    Are you kidding? I just stopped punching my Mtrycrafts doll last week!!! You should see it, it's got a boombox body, zipcord for arms and legs and a CD for a head. You probably don't recall your comment that REALLY made me mad, so mad I created the doll. To refresh your memory, when I had finished with my exhaustive interconnect blind tests and came up empty, you said (paraphrased) "I think you should try speaker cables next!" LOL! Uh, I mean, Grrrrrrr!!!!!!

    Hey, you sure made an impression on ol' Sondek - and after only 6 posts from him! Usually, it takes people at least twice that many posts before they start insulting you

    Now I remember

    I guess I was too hard on him too early
    mtrycrafts

  5. #30
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    Quote Originally Posted by DMK
    Hey, you sure made an impression on ol' Sondek - and after only 6 posts from him! Usually, it takes people at least twice that many posts before they start insulting you
    Where is his post to me, deleted?
    mtrycrafts

  6. #31
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    Were the cables brand new?

    I don't wish to jump on any bandwagons or backs, but I have to wonder if either of the cables were "broken in". Cables do physically change when electricity runs through them. It has been stated over and over by professional reviewers that new cables and components need time to perform their best. They have to physically change, which takes time. Yes, these changes are usually small, but the results of the changes can be anywhere from almost nothing to huge. I remember reading an article in Stereophile about a product that took almost a month of constant, 24-7 use before it stopped changing sound.
    I'm certainly no expert, and I can't cite studies, but this seems to be common knowledge within the audio community, at least from my limited exposure to it.
    And from my small personal experience, I think that different components react to varying degrees to changes in the cabling. So I guess my idea of a true test is to test the cables with various components. How much can you honestly say a cable can do if you've only used it in one setup? It may make a bigger difference with another pair of speakers or amp.
    In my own system, I have noticed a difference when I changed my interconnects and speaker cables. The differences were small, but to me they were there. I didn't get an extra octave lower bass or anything like that, but I think there is something to that whole "layers of gauze over the sound" stuff that I'm always reading.

  7. #32
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    ... but I have to wonder if either of the cables were "broken in".

    Does that make a difference? Evidence ?

    Cables do physically change when electricity runs through them.

    How so? Please expand on this assertion with hard data. Thanks.

    It has been stated over and over by professional reviewers that new cables and components need time to perform their best.

    And psychics talk to the dead. Astrologers predict your day and future, holistic healers will cure you. What else should I believe in?

    They have to physically change, which takes time.

    Why and why? Why do they have to change and why does it take time? How much time? Be very specific. Don't fudge or guess, please.


    Yes, these changes are usually small,

    Then it can be measured, right? Can you tell us those changed by numbers?

    but the results of the changes can be anywhere from almost nothing to huge.

    That is even better if it is 'huge.' Much easier to measure, right?

    I remember reading an article in Stereophile about a product that took almost a month of constant, 24-7 use before it stopped changing sound.

    And I remember watching John Edwards. Very convincing indeed.


    I'm certainly no expert, and I can't cite studies, but this seems to be common knowledge within the audio community, at least from my limited exposure to it.


    I keep asking for citations and studies too but get no responses. I wonder why it is so difficult to find such documents for those huge changes. How is the audio inductry to advance in knowledge if they cannot find out about it?
    Commong knowledge in the audio community? So is creation in certain other communities.
    mtrycrafts

  8. #33
    Forum Regular Rikki's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by mtrycraft
    ... but I have to wonder if either of the cables were "broken in".

    Does that make a difference? Evidence ?.
    Yet, another urban legend. I'm sure Loch Ness or Bigfoot are the ones who originally came up with the idea of breaking in cable. But I did break in my cable based on "expert" advice.

  9. #34
    Forum Regular Rikki's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Mike That Likes Music
    I don't wish to jump on any bandwagons or backs, but I have to wonder if either of the cables were "broken in". Cables do physically change when electricity runs through them.
    Yes, I actually used the new Monster Z1 cables for three months before doing my comparison. I then took the time to disconnect them and hook the cheap wire back up. Did not sound any different to me. I played Jewel's Spirit, Johnny Cash/Willie Nelson VH1 Storytellers, Metallica's "Black" Album, and a classical cd (Haydn's String Quartet on Naxos). A wide variety of music, that are all great sounding cds with lots of different sounds and range (vocal, string percusssion).

    I've got the Monster cable hooked back up just because I have them, but if I just left the cheap wire on I wouldn't hear a difference. And neither would anyone else.

  10. #35
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    "Well, I can only base this on my own equipment and experiences. "Proof" to me just means I don't see any reason to spend any more money or time on cables."

    This is exactly the same arguement the other side uses. They don't understand what real proof is either. I hope you never sit on a jury until you have a much better understanding of what the term proof actually means. So far, neither side has "PROVED" anything except that they can post a lot of words.

  11. #36
    Forum Regular Rikki's Avatar
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    The audio world is very subjective though. What sounds good to someone may not sound good to someone else. It's not clear cut like blood or DNA evidience. Since I heard no difference in the sound, I consider that proof. I would be willing to bet anything that no one else on this board could hear a difference either.

  12. #37
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    Even accepting your admittedly limited experience with just a few cables, and even accepting that you are telling the truth, why should believe that your hearing or sound system is good enough to detect a difference if one exists.

    Proving a negative is virtually impossible. Try to prove that god does not exist.

  13. #38
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    In my limited experience with cables I have found both small change and no changes at all. In testing a pair of Monster Z1R's I found that they tended to roll off the end response slightly. This could be the speakers as I have always found them to be slightly strong on the top end. Could not notice the same problem with Monster Z2's and could not give a reason why this happened.

    When making comparisons I do not use music per say but use samples of music such as glass breaking, piano note, single bass note. When I have noted changes they tend to be small, none of these day and night difference. Maybe I am getting to old and my ears are past their peak condition. I guess that applies to the rest of my body as well. They changes I have noted are small and do not believe that I would hear them comparing music as a whole. I find with music there is too much information to listen for hence why I use one instrument or note only. Like I said small changes and not always, this makes me wonder why some time I hear changes and not others, even though I can repeat the test and get the same results.

    At what level of equipment can these small changes be heard I do not know. Have only preformed limited test. Now when we talk price it’s just like sports car one has to pay for small gains. Still do not think cables are worth there price, maybe if they where 10% of what they charge.

    This is not proof that cables make a difference and still think it is the last thing one should look at. However I have been wrong before. For listening to music I would not worry about it, but I will still recommend Radio Shack gold plated RCA interconnects. Just one person's opinion.

  14. #39
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    Quote Originally Posted by Rikki
    But I did break in my cable based on "expert" advice.

    You need to change experts then.
    mtrycrafts

  15. #40
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    What is an Expert ?

    "You need to change experts then."

    That's another one of those subjective terms again. Many people will tell you they are an expert but this is only their mind. Should have seen the hassle I had getting the local GM dealers to fix my check engine light on a one-month-old truck. 85 expert mechanics took 3 months to figure it out when one customer figured out the first time.

    I consider myself a jack-of-all-trades but an expert of none. Even with my post secondary education there are many people without schooling that consider themselves to be an expert in the field that I studied. Now schooling is not an indication of intelligence but one of education. For those that put their minds and effort into something they too can learn a new trade. There is only one person that can be called the best just a fact of life but making it into the top 10% is still pretty good. Hmmm need to wait for some of those really old guys to retire so that I can move up the ladder. Don’t get me wrong there are many people experienced in fields that I know little about, I can build the computer but don’t ask me about software. Finding those that are truly brilliant in their field is always a pleasure.

    The fall from stud to dud or god to dog can be fast and sudden with a loud crash at the bottom.

    What is the approved cable break in procedure? Myself when it comes to breaking in new stereo equipment I use an old simple method, use it works for me. What is a true stereo expert?

    Enjoy the music

  16. #41
    Music Junkie E-Stat's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by happy ears
    What is the approved cable break in procedure? Myself when it comes to breaking in new stereo equipment I use an old simple method, use it works for me.
    I think you missed the point given by our ever perceptive ditch digger. He can't hear any break in effects, therefore neither can you.

    As for me, I just use the system for a while.

    rw

  17. #42
    Forum Regular Rockwell's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by E-Stat
    I think you missed the point given by our ever perceptive ditch digger. He can't hear any break in effects, therefore neither can you.

    As for me, I just use the system for a while.

    rw
    That is not the point at all. Where do you come up with this stuff? It has nothing to do with what Mtry can hear.
    "You two are a regular ol' Three Musketeers."

  18. #43
    Music Junkie E-Stat's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Rockwell
    That is not the point at all. Where do you come up with this stuff?
    For some odd reason, I read his posts. I'm guessing that his "need to change experts" comment to Rikki meant that he doesn't "believe" in break in effects at all.

    rw

  19. #44
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    "For some odd reason, I read his posts. I'm guessing that his "need to change experts" comment to Rikki meant that he doesn't "believe" in break in effects at all."

    Anyone can call themselves an expert. However in this case Mytrcraft only says "need to change experts". This can be taken many ways, good and bad.

  20. #45
    Forum Regular Rockwell's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by E-Stat
    For some odd reason, I read his posts. I'm guessing that his "need to change experts" comment to Rikki meant that he doesn't "believe" in break in effects at all.

    rw
    He may not believe in cable break in, but the reason why he doesn't believe does not have to be because he can't hear it. The following three reasons are more compelling than a singular personal experience:
    A) There is no scientific basis for the break in effect to exist
    B) No one has demostrated that they can hear it under bias controlled conditions
    C) No one has produced measurements indicating that the electrical properties of the wire change over a relatively brief time, audible or not.
    "You two are a regular ol' Three Musketeers."

  21. #46
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    Quote Originally Posted by skeptic
    "Well, I can only base this on my own equipment and experiences. "Proof" to me just means I don't see any reason to spend any more money or time on cables."

    This is exactly the same arguement the other side uses. They don't understand what real proof is either. I hope you never sit on a jury until you have a much better understanding of what the term proof actually means. So far, neither side has "PROVED" anything except that they can post a lot of words.
    You might want Rikki on the jury for your trial if you know you are guilty or at fault.

  22. #47
    Music Junkie E-Stat's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Rockwell
    The following three reasons are more compelling than a singular personal experience:
    I would be completely in agreement with you if in fact audible cable break in effects were indeed a singular personal experience.

    rw

  23. #48
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    "Break-in" studies?

    Okay, I'll be the first to admit that I'm a believer in break-in time for both components and cables. I've read articles and discussions talking about "adding and detracting ohm resistance value to/from transformers" etc..., but I haven't the education to understand these in their entirety. My oh-so-useful-in-the-real-world musical performance education has taught me much about how to appreciate the sounds coming out of my stereo, but not so much about how it gets out of the speakers in the first place.
    The main argument for believers in cable break-in as far as I've been able to glean is that electrons need to find the path of least resistance through a cable, and that they settle into a "groove" after a certain period of time. Makes sense to me. If you dump a bucket of water on your driveway, it will quickly find the path of least resistance to get downhill. And if you continually pour a fairly constant amount of water onto the same spot, it will all follow the same path and will eventually carve a permanent path for any future water to follow. Now, I know that electrons and cables are hardly akin to water and sidewalks, but does anyone else involved in this discussion think these two are analagous? Water and electrons are both physical things, and they are both travelling through physical environments. My understanding of physical law is that one object cannot travel on/through another object without changing both on a temporary and a permanent basis, small though the alterations may be. So by that premise, a signal from your amp to your speakers will be physically altered by the cable, and the signal will have a cumulative physical altering effect on the cable. Admittedly, this argument doesn't cover the actual physical measurements no-one can seem to come up with... but hey if it did, we wouldn't be hashing this out in the first place. Whatcha think?
    And I do have an honest question for those of you don't think break-in occurs. I'm not trying to be flippant or to piss any of you off, but... I've been reading various audio magazines and on-line articles about cables for the last few years, and virtually every one (no, I'm not going to list them. Pick up a Stereophile or Absolute Sound. I, for one, trust that these guys know what they're talking about ) has stated that the cables did change sonically over varying periods of time. Are they all wrong that the changes actually take place? How do you back this argument up? Now, I know I haven't been reading all the available materials, and that my reading has concentrated on reviews of the products sonic performance rather than the scientific principles as to how the signal was transferred...but hey a billion smokers can't be wrong, right?
    Mike

  24. #49
    Forum Regular Rockwell's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by E-Stat
    I would be completely in agreement with you if in fact audible cable break in effects were indeed a singular personal experience.

    rw
    It is a singular personal experience. You hear it so you believe it. Now, you read others agreeing with you that this is happening and does that enforce your belief? Why do you read engineers telling you "no way no how" and discount that and go with people who agree with your personal experience?
    "You two are a regular ol' Three Musketeers."

  25. #50
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    Quote Originally Posted by E-Stat
    He can't hear any break in effects, therefore neither can you.
    rw
    Please post my message for any such claims from me.

    Besides, it is irrelevant what I can hear. But, what you claim and able to demonstrate is the issue.
    mtrycrafts

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