Wire is Wire - The Proof

[Rikki]

I’ve concluded that high end cables/speaker wire are a waste of money and does not significantly improve the sound of your system. As long as your wire has a “solid connection” meaning the wire is not broken or have crimps in it, 10 cent per foot speaker wire performs just as well as $10+ per foot wire.

Here’s how I came to that conclusion…
I have a set of Klipsch RF-7 speakers, and an older high end Yamaha receiver (Yamaha RX-V670). I had VERY inexpensive 12 gauge speaker wire from Radio Shack (from a spool) connected to the mains. It sounded fine, but reading forums and talking to some friends I decided to upgrade to Monster Cable. I bought Monster Z1 cable 10ft pair for $75. Absolutely NO DIFFERNCE IN SOUND. And believe me if you’re familiar with Klipsch speakers (or read the reviews) they are extremely sensitive to what’s connected to them and are notorious for shedding light on the short comings of your system. At some point I’d like to get a Rotel pre-amp/amp and I’ll try the same test, but I’m sure the results would be the same.

I realize there are much higher end cable$/wire$ out there than Monster Z1, but I’m confident that the results would be the same, so I’m not about to spend a nickel more on wire. I mean think about it…you can put insulation around wire, braid it in multiple strands like Bo Derek’s hair, and do other tricks, but you can’t really improve wire. Wire is wire.

[mtrycraft]

but I’m confident that the results would be the same, so I’m not about to spend a nickel more on wire. Wire is wire.

Many have tried to demonstrate differences, none have succeeded in all this time with comparable cables

By the way, you may be close to two very good audio clubs that would be glad to help you out in the comparisons , even of amps and other components

[DMK]

I’ve concluded that high end cables/speaker wire are a waste of money and does not significantly improve the sound of your system. As long as your wire has a “solid connection” meaning the wire is not broken or have crimps in it, 10 cent per foot speaker wire performs just as well as $10+ per foot wire.

Here’s how I came to that conclusion…
I have a set of Klipsch RF-7 speakers, and an older high end Yamaha receiver (Yamaha RX-V670). I had VERY inexpensive 12 gauge speaker wire from Radio Shack (from a spool) connected to the mains. It sounded fine, but reading forums and talking to some friends I decided to upgrade to Monster Cable. I bought Monster Z1 cable 10ft pair for $75. Absolutely NO DIFFERNCE IN SOUND. And believe me if you’re familiar with Klipsch speakers (or read the reviews) they are extremely sensitive to what’s connected to them and are notorious for shedding light on the short comings of your system. At some point I’d like to get a Rotel pre-amp/amp and I’ll try the same test, but I’m sure the results would be the same.

I realize there are much higher end cable$/wire$ out there than Monster Z1, but I’m confident that the results would be the same, so I’m not about to spend a nickel more on wire. I mean think about it…you can put insulation around wire, braid it in multiple strands like Bo Derek’s hair, and do other tricks, but you can’t really improve wire. Wire is wire.

But you came to the correct conclusion, so what the heck! And please don't take Mtrycrafts advice! I did, and I spent untold numbers of hours doing blind tests, only to come to the conclusion you arrived at easily! An insidious chap, that Mtrycrafts. I could hear him chortling from afar during my tests and he made me admit that I heard no differences under blind conditions right here on this forum! Oh, he haff vays of making you talk! I felt stupid and yet, I felt somehow smarter at the same time. Oh, he is a devious, sinister fiend!

[stratman672001]

I always felt this way about speaker cable. I never really bought into the "Silver plated garden hose" syndrome. All you need to know is this: Runs under 10', go with 16 gauge. Anything over 10', use 12 gauge. Simple. No?

[mtrycraft]

But you came to the correct conclusion, so what the heck! And please don't take Mtrycrafts advice! I did, and I spent untold numbers of hours doing blind tests, only to come to the conclusion you arrived at easily! An insidious chap, that Mtrycrafts. I could hear him chortling from afar during my tests and he made me admit that I heard no differences under blind conditions right here on this forum! Oh, he haff vays of making you talk! I felt stupid and yet, I felt somehow smarter at the same time. Oh, he is a devious, sinister fiend!

Ah, thanks for all the compliments.

[DMK]

Ah, thanks for all the compliments.

Are you kidding? I just stopped punching my Mtrycrafts doll last week!!! You should see it, it's got a boombox body, zipcord for arms and legs and a CD for a head. You probably don't recall your comment that REALLY made me mad, so mad I created the doll. To refresh your memory, when I had finished with my exhaustive interconnect blind tests and came up empty, you said (paraphrased) "I think you should try speaker cables next!" LOL! Uh, I mean, Grrrrrrr!!!!!!

Hey, you sure made an impression on ol' Sondek - and after only 6 posts from him! Usually, it takes people at least twice that many posts before they start insulting you

[mtrycraft]

Are you kidding? I just stopped punching my Mtrycrafts doll last week!!! You should see it, it's got a boombox body, zipcord for arms and legs and a CD for a head. You probably don't recall your comment that REALLY made me mad, so mad I created the doll. To refresh your memory, when I had finished with my exhaustive interconnect blind tests and came up empty, you said (paraphrased) "I think you should try speaker cables next!" LOL! Uh, I mean, Grrrrrrr!!!!!!

Hey, you sure made an impression on ol' Sondek - and after only 6 posts from him! Usually, it takes people at least twice that many posts before they start insulting you

Now I remember

I guess I was too hard on him too early

[mtrycraft]

Hey, you sure made an impression on ol' Sondek - and after only 6 posts from him! Usually, it takes people at least twice that many posts before they start insulting you

Where is his post to me, deleted?

[skeptic]

This hardly constitutes proof of anything. It is as unscientific and unjustified a conclusion based on almost no experience, as the claims that they do make a difference. How you feel and what you are guessing does not constitute proof. Only rigorous fair testing and retesting which can be verified by impartial people equally qualified constitutes strong evidence. It is not easy or necessarily even possible to prove a negative.

Having said that, and agreeing that nobody has published any credible proof, that does not mean that the infinitely inventive mind of man cannot devise a wire which causes a loudspeaker to sound different than another wire. Not necessarily better, just different.

However, it is not up to any of us to prove that these wires sound the same, it is up to those who would try to convice us that they are better to offer proof first by proving that they do sound different through fair and impartial tests. They have not done that after more than twenty years of selling these products as far as I can tell and my hunch is that it's because they can't. But even if they could, to justify their difference in price, any difference whatsoever, they must not only prove that they sound different but that the sound is better and that the improvement cannot be obtained in any other more cost effective way. Finally, after all of that is done, it becomes the decision of those who must buy the product to determine whether the improvement is worth the cost.

The debate should remain fair on both sides and irrational bashing does nothing to convince the thoughtful fence sitter that either side is right.

[Sondek]

I’ve concluded that high end cables/speaker wire are a waste of money and does not significantly improve the sound of your system. As long as your wire has a “solid connection” meaning the wire is not broken or have crimps in it, 10 cent per foot speaker wire performs just as well as $10+ per foot wire.

Here’s how I came to that conclusion…
I have a set of Klipsch RF-7 speakers, and an older high end Yamaha receiver (Yamaha RX-V670). wire. I mean think about it…you can put insulation around wire, braid it in multiple strands like Bo Derek’s hair, and do other tricks, but you can’t really improve wire. Wire is wire.

You should stop right there. RF-7 are highly colored. They are overly bright, and the horn shout is prominent. Not hearing that alone disqualifies you from any hearing experiments. They are not exactly balanced, nor high end. Yamaha doesn't make anything particularly revealing. Instead of discreet components there are integrated circuits. I find the sound opaque. This system could not be used to master recordings, it's colored, and not revealing enough.

This sounds mean, but it's all true.

That is a very bad test bed in which to declare findings.
Your results are flawed.

I witnessed a "contest" like this. A guy told me there is no difference in cd players. I asked him how he came to that conclusion. He tried it on his system, and another system. Sadly, he had bose, and the other system were some technics speakers. Neither one adequate for reference monitoring. This is much the same.

It also assumes you have a reference system, all speakers are equal and all amps are equal. That is all flawed logic.

[mtrycraft]

This sounds mean, but it's all true.


No, you just made a statement. Its truthfullness has yet to be established, right.

That is a very bad test bed in which to declare findings.

That is you opinion. Everyone has one; not all are created equal, right.

Your results are flawed.

Yep, not published, not peer reviewed. But then, so are all the reports for audible differences in cable, right.

I witnessed a "contest" like this. A guy told me there is no difference in cd players. I asked him how he came to that conclusion. He tried it on his system, and another system. Sadly, he had bose, and the other system were some technics speakers. Neither one adequate for reference monitoring. This is much the same.

You speculation, yes.

It also assumes you have a reference system, all speakers are equal and all amps are equal. That is all flawed logic.

Is that what he stated? Or you are just speculating out of thin air?

I am sure you have evidence that you would approve of, right? Cite it please.

[WmAx]

I'd say this is ironclad proof that you are, in fact all of the above. The data is in. Now, just go away and listen to your boombox and let the real audiophiles play.

What exactly is a "real audiophile"?

Speculating about mtrycrafts, I would not be at all suprised if what he does and/or has in real life is nothing less amazing in terms of performance; he probably finds it entertaining to see the baseless accusuations cast upon him. Again, I'm just speculating. :-)

-Chris

[Sondek]

What exactly is a "real audiophile"?

Speculating about mtrycrafts, I would not be at all suprised if what he does and/or has in real life is nothing less amazing in terms of performance; he probably finds it entertaining to see the baseless accusuations cast upon him. Again, I'm just speculating. :-)

-Chris

Actually, it is scientific and completely accurate based upon his posts. As a third party to the experiment, I am in complete agreement with the well-documented results.

It's a perfect, air-tight basis in which to examine the motives, mind and psyche of mtrycrafts, and his lap-dogs, drones and mindless followers.

[WmAx]

Actually, it is scientific and completely accurate based upon his posts. As a third party to the experiment, I am in complete agreement with the well-documented results.

It's a perfect, air-tight basis in which to examine the motives, mind and psyche of mtrycrafts, and his lap-dogs, drones and mindless followers.

Seemingly silly assertions you are making IMO. But who cares what I think. Why won't you reply to the quesiton i asked? What is a "real audiophile", as you put it? I'm curious of your defintion.

-Chris

[pctower]

[QUOTE=Sondek]I just ran an objective test with 6 on my friends. The task was to read 10 of your posts, and supply an opinion.

Scientific poll results:

From your post reading: would you say:

I personally find your crude, personal attacks on mtrycrafts to be highly offensive. Posts like this merely serve to poison the atmosphere on this board and discourage reasonable, informed, informative discourse.

I am only one board member without any authority here. However, I am personally requesting that you refrain from such behavior in the future.

[Sondek]

I personally find your crude, personal attacks on mtrycrafts to be highly offensive. Posts like this merely serve to poison the atmosphere on this board and discourage reasonable, informed, informative discourse.

I am only one board member without any authority here. However, I am personally requesting that you refrain from such behavior in the future.

Fair enough.

Now you need to tell Mtrycrafts to QUIT interjecting his BIAS, and personal issues into other peoples threads. He is outright calling people liars. He is outright telling people they are imagining things, and what they cannot hear. He is very disingenous, and has no buisiness invading threads with his PERSONAL ATTACKS thinly disguised as psuedo science.

Despite his posting of links and sources, what he is doing, is wrong. Talk about offensive? Someone who obviously listens to radio shack SPL meters, multimeter readings and magazine reviews...everything except music. He is NOT an authority on anything, but he obviously gets off pretending he is. Anyone with a real high end system and long term listening experiance can tell.

I find that personally offensive that he is not curbed in by moderators.

[pctower]

Fair enough.

Now you need to tell Mtrycrafts to QUIT interjecting his BIAS, and personal issues into other peoples threads. He is outright calling people liars. He is outright telling people they are imagining things, and what they cannot hear. He is very disingenous, and has no buisiness invading threads with his PERSONAL ATTACKS thinly disguised as psuedo science.

Despite his posting of links and sources, what he is doing, is wrong. Talk about offensive? Someone who obviously listens to radio shack SPL meters, multimeter readings and magazine reviews...everything except music. He is NOT an authority on anything, but he obviously gets off pretending he is. Anyone with a real high end system and long term listening experiance can tell.

I find that personally offensive that he is not curbed in by moderators.

I've challenged mtrycrafts (appropriately I believe) countless times. He is not an easy challenge as he usually covers himself pretty well. But he's only human, so if you really want to effectively challenge some of his claims and approaches it is possible. It just takes work rather than shooting from the hip.

[Monstrous Mike]

Fair enough.

Now you need to tell Mtrycrafts to QUIT interjecting his BIAS, and personal issues into other peoples threads. He is outright calling people liars. He is outright telling people they are imagining things, and what they cannot hear. He is very disingenous, and has no buisiness invading threads with his PERSONAL ATTACKS thinly disguised as psuedo science.

Despite his posting of links and sources, what he is doing, is wrong. Talk about offensive? Someone who obviously listens to radio shack SPL meters, multimeter readings and magazine reviews...everything except music. He is NOT an authority on anything, but he obviously gets off pretending he is. Anyone with a real high end system and long term listening experiance can tell.

I find that personally offensive that he is not curbed in by moderators.

I believe you need to do some fundamental research into this area before you wade into this any further. There is significant factor at work when subjectively assessing audio quality and that is perception. Perception is what you report, that is how you perceived a sound to be. It is very difficult to disagree with one's perceptions since that is a personal assessment.

However, we can perceive things to be there when they are not and perceive them not to be there when they are. So when people report that they think cable A sounds better (or different) than cable B, they are actually reporting their perception. To verify that perception it would take a good deal of effort by also making some objective measurements and also correlating your perception with that of others.

It is one thing to say that you are happy with a new product, you think it sounds better and all is well. But it is another thing to say there is an actual, quantifiable improvement that can be demonstrated repeatedly to others and is valid for most situations.

So you are not being called a liar at all, even though you may perceive that to be happening to you. You cannot say that wire A actually sounds different than wire B, you can only say that is how you perceive it. I perceive the exact opposite than you do about wires. That does not mean that one of us is lying and the other is telling the truth. It means that one of us possibly has an inaccurate perception for our given situation.

And one thing about perception is when given some prior knowledge of what you are about to assess, this can and will affect your perception and this is beyond the control of your concious thought. That is why people here are saying the original poster doesn't really have proof of anything. This concept applies equally to both sides of the fence.

Think of it like this. Say there is piece of abstract art, a whirlwind of chaotic color. If someone told you Jackson Pollack painted it you would have different perception of it than if someone told you their 5 year old daughter painted it.

[kode3]

You should stop right there. RF-7 are highly colored. They are overly bright, and the horn shout is prominent. Not hearing that alone disqualifies you from any hearing experiments. They are not exactly balanced, nor high end. Yamaha doesn't make anything particularly revealing. Instead of discreet components there are integrated circuits. I find the sound opaque. This system could not be used to master recordings, it's colored, and not revealing enough.

This sounds mean, but it's all true.

That is a very bad test bed in which to declare findings.
Your results are flawed.

I witnessed a "contest" like this. A guy told me there is no difference in cd players. I asked him how he came to that conclusion. He tried it on his system, and another system. Sadly, he had bose, and the other system were some technics speakers. Neither one adequate for reference monitoring. This is much the same.

It also assumes you have a reference system, all speakers are equal and all amps are equal. That is all flawed logic.

Very well said, I must agree.

[Sondek]

Very well said, I must agree.

To show that I am sincere, and not just raining on the parade here do this:

Take *any* cd player, any amp, any cables, any room. Listen to a variety of string quartette and violin music on the rf-7, or any reference klipsch.

The horn aperture resonates badly, and colors the sound. You can close your eyes and clearly get a mental picture of the size, position, and shape of the horn opening.

This is inherent to the speaker.

This is unacceptable, and limits the rf series to midfi and HT. A couple of my comrades that are not into stereo at all could hear it. One guy commented on how it sounds like an intercom.

[Sir Terrence the Terrible]

To show that I am sincere, and not just raining on the parade here do this:

Take *any* cd player, any amp, any cables, any room. Listen to a variety of string quartette and violin music on the rf-7, or any reference klipsch.

The horn aperture resonates badly, and colors the sound. You can close your eyes and clearly get a mental picture of the size, position, and shape of the horn opening.

This is inherent to the speaker.

This is unacceptable, and limits the rf series to midfi and HT. A couple of my comrades that are not into stereo at all could hear it. One guy commented on how it sounds like an intercom.

Sondek,

After I read your comments(of which I do not agree with at all) I surfed the net for reviews of this speaker that agreed with your conclusions. I could find NONE. While the RF-7 is not a perfect speaker, every review I read tended to rate them as a little above average but not perfect. I for one understand that you cannot just stick a horn loaded speaker in a room without acoustical treatment. Unlike speakers that are not horn loaded, this speaker aims a great deal of their output directly at the listening position minimizing interaction with the ceiling, and side walls. You comment regarding horn resonances was not even mentioned in any of the reviews, so I will chalked that up to your personal bias.

The RF-7 was not born in the era of two channel music. It was designed to work in conjuction with the matching center, sub, and surround speakers. In this configuration almost all the reviews said these speakers excelled.

It seems funny to me that you would use a personal opinion as a foundation to critisize someone elses personal opinion. Can you tell my what makes yours more valid than his?

[okiemax]

I’ve concluded that high end cables/speaker wire are a waste of money and does not significantly improve the sound of your system. As long as your wire has a “solid connection” meaning the wire is not broken or have crimps in it, 10 cent per foot speaker wire performs just as well as $10+ per foot wire.

Here’s how I came to that conclusion…
I have a set of Klipsch RF-7 speakers, and an older high end Yamaha receiver (Yamaha RX-V670). I had VERY inexpensive 12 gauge speaker wire from Radio Shack (from a spool) connected to the mains. It sounded fine, but reading forums and talking to some friends I decided to upgrade to Monster Cable. I bought Monster Z1 cable 10ft pair for $75. Absolutely NO DIFFERNCE IN SOUND. And believe me if you’re familiar with Klipsch speakers (or read the reviews) they are extremely sensitive to what’s connected to them and are notorious for shedding light on the short comings of your system. At some point I’d like to get a Rotel pre-amp/amp and I’ll try the same test, but I’m sure the results would be the same.

I realize there are much higher end cable$/wire$ out there than Monster Z1, but I’m confident that the results would be the same, so I’m not about to spend a nickel more on wire. I mean think about it…you can put insulation around wire, braid it in multiple strands like Bo Derek’s hair, and do other tricks, but you can’t really improve wire. Wire is wire.

It looks like you are catching it from all sides here for relating your experience with the Monster Z1 speaker cable. I believe cables can make a difference, but do not believe they necessarily will make a difference. I also believe you are the best judge of what works for you. You tried the cable, and concluded it was a waste of money. I see no reason to dispute your claim. Hopefully, you can return the wire for a refund.

Perhaps you would have saved time and money by asking forum members for advice before buying the cable. The naysayers would have recommended avoiding audiophile wires altogether. Even though I believe cables can make a difference, I would have questioned the economics of spending $75 on speaker wire for aYamaha RX-V670 receiver, when the receiver might not be worth much more than that amount in the used market.

The manual for your Klipsch RF-7 speakers recommends bi-wiring them to the amp. Whatever you do, don't ask about bi-wiring on this forum.

[skeptic]

"It looks like you are catching it from all sides here for relating your experience with the Monster Z1 speaker cable."

Actually what he is catching it for is calling his limited and narrow experience "proof." That's what he called it in the title of his thread. While some people here may not believe it, I am still open to the possibility that someday, somehow, someone, somewhere will demonstrate that one cable is superior to another although that hasn't happened yet IMO. Calling what he offered as "proof" is as irrational and untrue by the standards of most reasonable people as the claims made by other people who just went out and bought and used their first cables and came to the opposite conclusion. Namecalling doesn't change any of it.

[Rikki]

Well, I can only base this on my own equipment and experiences. "Proof" to me just means I don't see any reason to spend any more money or time on cables.

A lot of you sound like so called "experts" but I'd just love to get you all in a room and do some "blind tests", Like not tell you if you are listening to 10 cent wire or $100 wire. I'd bet that would prove my point even further. Where's a good place for everyone to meet ? Does NYC work for everyone ?

[mtrycraft]

... but I'd just love to get you all in a room and do some "blind tests", Like not tell you if you are listening to 10 cent wire or $100 wire. I'd bet that would prove my point even further.

Naw, then they will pick your components apart, your music, your room, something. their bad hair day, any excuse would do.
But, what you propose has been done for over 20 + years with no audible differences. Only fools reinvent the wheel or chase the rainbow.