Wire is Wire - The Proof

[mtrycraft]

I suppose that makes you blind.

I could be that too

I have a brail keyboards and one that reads the screen, so I don't really need to see or hear to post here

[okiemax]

Is that what he said? It seems that you are having reading comprehension problems...or wildy distorting his words.

I obviously distorted Monstrous Mike's words in jest. I do not think attempts at humor are out of place on the Cable Forum. Why beat around the bus if my takeoff on his comments offend you? What's wrong with just saying "I don't like what you said," and explaining why?

[Rockwell]

I obviously distorted Monstrous Mike's words in jest. I do not think attempts at humor are out of place on the Cable Forum. Why beat around the bus if my takeoff on his comments offend you? What's wrong with just saying "I don't like what you said," and explaining why?

Nothing wrong with humor, but it's hard to tell sometimes. Try to use the smileys

[Monstrous Mike]

Before reading your post, I didn't know hearing differences in cables means I can have conversations with the dead. Boy oh boy, am I ever glad I hear that good!

I just now tried asking George Washington and Ben Franklin a few questions. So far they haven't replied. Do you think they have been dead too long to talk, or are they just ignoring me? I'll get back to you when I hear from them. In the mean time, I'll be looking out the window for Bigfoot.

Funny stuff, Okie.

But seriously, what do you think when somebody says they talked to their dead relatives or even Ben Franklin? It may have been very real to them. This is difficult to contradict because there can be no proof it did not occur. But in your heart, you are saying they probably had a strong memory flashback and an emotional moment and to them, for that instance in time, they felt that the dead communicated with them. I guess the problem there would be if their deceased relatives told them to buy expensive cables (see I have a sense of humour too).

Some of the guys who post here know what other people can and can't hear without even being there. If you can do it will you let me know what George and Ben had to say in case they tried to talk to me while I was sleeping?

I don't have to be there, in person with clipboard in hand, to give the opinion that if you say you saw a duck and it barked like a dog, you might have been mistaken on two counts. It might not have been a duck and it might not have sounded like a bark.

Cables may make a large difference and the dead may be able to talk to the living, I don't really know for sure. But the point is that personal observations are not proof of anything, especially considering how our observations can be, and are often, fallible.

[mtrycraft]

Wire is Wire - The Proof

The nice thing about Alzheimers is that you meet so many new people!

rw

You are the one who lost all sense of the posts. You need to review it from day one so you don't confuse the issues as you have.

In a response to Rikki two days ago you said this:

"You need to change experts then."

What did you mean?


Quote:
Originally Posted by E-Stat
He can't hear any break in effects, therefore neither can you.
rw


Please post my message for any such claims from me.

Besides, it is irrelevant what I can hear. But, what you claim and able to demonstrate is the issue.


start from the beginning and review all the posts and see who is confuesd.

[Rikki]

But the point is that personal observations are not proof of anything, especially considering how our observations can be, and are often, fallible.

Personal observations can be fallible. However, personal observations can also be enough "proof" to put someone in jail for the rest of their life, if say you alone see/hear someone commit a crime and others believe you "beyond a reasonable doubt".

I'll take personal observation advice over a geek in a laboratory with a muitimeter crunching numbers anyday when it comes to spending thousands of dollars on audio equipment. If I, or a jury of my peers, can't hear the difference, then there is no difference.

And I still say wire is wire beyond a reasonable doubt. The prosecution now rests

[Monstrous Mike]

However, personal observations can also be enough "proof" to put someone in jail for the rest of their life, if say you alone see/hear someone commit a crime and others believe you "beyond a reasonable doubt".

Are you kidding me? One guy says A, the other says B. Why would you believe one over the other? The answer is you wouldn't. You need a hell of a lot more evidence before believing one guy over the other.

If personal observations were enough "proof" to put somebody away for life, then it would be pretty easy to lock away somebody you didn't like, now wouldn't it?

If you ever get called for jury duty, all the defendant's lawyer would have to do is dig up this thread and you be tossed in a minute.

[Mike That Likes Music]

No one wants to say anything about my last post? It was 3 days ago. I was asked to come up with data, and I cited physical law. I have yet to hear from anyone on either side of this thing. So I'll reask the question: Are cables exempt from physical law? (see my last post for my whole argument) I'd love to slice one of those things open and take a REALLY close look at the conductors, but sadly my scanning electron microscope is in the shop (having its tires rotated).
To those who just want to stir the pot or raise language-use issues over other's postings, please ignore this. I'm looking for a well thought out response here.
And remember, lack of proof is not disproof. 50,000 years ago, every time it thundered it was because the gods were angry. Now we have solid scientific evidence of why thunder happens. Anyone think they'll ever come up with a scientific way to end this argument?
Mike

[okiemax]

Funny stuff, Okie.

But seriously, what do you think when somebody says they talked to their dead relatives or even Ben Franklin? It may have been very real to them. This is difficult to contradict because there can be no proof it did not occur. But in your heart, you are saying they probably had a strong memory flashback and an emotional moment and to them, for that instance in time, they felt that the dead communicated with them. I guess the problem there would be if their deceased relatives told them to buy expensive cables (see I have a sense of humour too).

I don't have to be there, in person with clipboard in hand, to give the opinion that if you say you saw a duck and it barked like a dog, you might have been mistaken on two counts. It might not have been a duck and it might not have sounded like a bark.

Cables may make a large difference and the dead may be able to talk to the living, I don't really know for sure. But the point is that personal observations are not proof of anything, especially considering how our observations can be, and are often, fallible.

You choose analogies that make cable yeasayers seem ridiculous. The following would be representative: Claiming to have heard a difference in two cables is analogous to claiming to have talked with the dead. People who claim they have talked with the dead are lying or delusional. Cable yeasayers are lying or delusional.

You never choose a complimentary analogy, such as .... Claiming to have heard a difference in two cables is analogous to claiming a believe in the hereafter. Those who believe in the hereafter have high morale values. Cable yeasayers have high morale values.

How about some balance?

[Monstrous Mike]

You choose analogies that make cable yeasayers seem ridiculous. The following would be representative: Claiming to have heard a difference in two cables is analogous to claiming to have talked with the dead. People who claim they have talked with the dead are lying or delusional. Cable yeasayers are lying or delusional.

You never choose a complimentary analogy, such as .... Claiming to have heard a difference in two cables is analogous to claiming a believe in the hereafter. Those who believe in the hereafter have high morale values. Cable yeasayers have high morale values.

How about some balance?

For the record, I do not think it is ridiculous to think someone can communicate with the dead. That is a personal or religious matter and there may be something to it, however, there is simply no evidence other than personal accounts. What I don't like are guys like John Edwards who takes money from people by exploiting this unproven possibility. He has been caught many times on his method of "talking to the dead" which is really a form of hot or cold readings.

And I have never used the words lying or delusional when describing a cable believer. All I am saying is that there is no proof, senses can be fallible, actual differences can be caused by other factors, and emotions play a large part in subjective assessments.

The only real difference between me and cable believer is that the cable believer has positively concluded that his cable has improved his system sound while I am saying let's look at all the other factors first, before reaching a conclusion.

[Rikki]

For the record, I do not think it is ridiculous to think someone can communicate with the dead. That is a personal or religious matter and there may be something to it, however, there is simply no evidence other than personal accounts.

But you don't believe that personal accounts hold weight in audiophile land ? I don't get it.

senses can be fallible, actual differences can be caused by other factors, and emotions play a large part in subjective assessments.

Senses are not perfect. But in my test for example, I had no emotions one way or the other. If anything I wanted to hear a difference since I spent $75 on the cables. Everything in the test was equal (i.e. the music, the room accoustics, etc.). It's very simple actually, there was no difference in sound. If there was a difference I would have heard it.

[okiemax]

For the record, I do not think it is ridiculous to think someone can communicate with the dead. That is a personal or religious matter and there may be something to it, however, there is simply no evidence other than personal accounts. What I don't like are guys like John Edwards who takes money from people by exploiting this unproven possibility. He has been caught many times on his method of "talking to the dead" which is really a form of hot or cold readings.

And I have never used the words lying or delusional when describing a cable believer. All I am saying is that there is no proof, senses can be fallible, actual differences can be caused by other factors, and emotions play a large part in subjective assessments.

The only real difference between me and cable believer is that the cable believer has positively concluded that his cable has improved his system sound while I am saying let's look at all the other factors first, before reaching a conclusion.

Yes, I know you have never accused cable yeasayers of lying.I should have left "lying" out of the analogy. I thought you had implied that they are delusional, although you may not have used the word "delusional."

I cannot communicate with the dead, and doubt anyone who claims they can. However, I occasionally imagine conversations with my dead parents. Something will happen that reminds me of my Father, for example, and I will think about what he would say and what I would say. He lives on in my mind.

An individual's claim about hearing a difference in two cables can be verified through blinded testing. But verifying subjective experience with objective testing is not a common consumer practice. Why? Because people have found that relying on their senses works. Trying to persuade people that their senses are fallible contradicts their experience, and may be unwelcomed instead of appreciated.

BTW, I agree with your post on American Splendor and Adaptation. I really enjoyed these movies.

[mtrycraft]

But verifying subjective experience with objective testing is not a common consumer practice. Why? Because people have found that relying on their senses works.


Yes, and no. Multiple senses 9in combination can confuse the issue when you are checking small differences. That is well know. Subjective experience, unchallenged, is what the marketeers are hoping for.


Trying to persuade people that their senses are fallible contradicts their experience, and may be unwelcomed instead of appreciated.

Because they have not been tested, or know better how your senses can mislead you in some instances. Why would the marketeer tell you this? He wants to sell more, not less.

[E-Stat]

You are the one who lost all sense of the posts. You need to review it from day one so you don't confuse the issues as you have.

Let's try something simple that will require only a yes or a no.

Based upon your experience (either personal or by way of literature), do you find evidence for the concept of wire break in effects?

Remember - just "yes" or "no". I have every confidence in your ability to succeed.

rw

[mtrycraft]

Let's try something simple that will require only a yes or a no.

Based upon your experience (either personal or by way of literature), do you find evidence for the concept of wire break in effects?

Remember - just "yes" or "no". I have every confidence in your ability to succeed.

rw

How is this relevant? There is no evidence.

[E-Stat]

How is this relevant? There is no evidence.

You sure have lots of trouble with simple tasks. I take that as a "no". Which is the foundation behind a number of previous posts that refer to that notion.

rw

[Monstrous Mike]

But you don't believe that personal accounts hold weight in audiophile land ? I don't get it.

I didn't say that personal accounts don't hold weight. What I am saying is that if you take 100 personal accounts, a certain percentage will be accurate, a certain percentage will be close, a certain percentage will be off a little, and a certain percentage will be right out to lunch.

What these percentages are is anybody's guess. But if you give me a personal account I have no way of knowing which category you fall into so I can't take your personal account to heart. I would expect that you feel the same way about me although when most people learn I have not heard differences in wires they automatically put me in the "out to lunch" category.

I had no emotions one way or the other.

I know a lot of you feel this way. We would all like to think we approach our in home testing with a completely objective frame of mind. However, it has been conclusively shown that there are many factors that we are not conciously aware of that can influence us. That doesn't mean you can't accurately assess anything in your audio system, just that there are pitfalls that could manifest themselves without you even knowing it.

[Monstrous Mike]

I cannot communicate with the dead, and doubt anyone who claims they can. However, I occasionally imagine conversations with my dead parents. Something will happen that reminds me of my Father, for example, and I will think about what he would say and what I would say. He lives on in my mind.

I'm sorry to hear about your parents. I have both of mine and I certainly appreciate them more now then when I was a teenager. I have no problem accepting that you still have personal relationship with them through memories or even conversations. Like I said, this is a personal matter. However, if somebody like John Edwards says he is talking your parents for you, would this not annoy you?

Trying to persuade people that their senses are fallible contradicts their experience, and may be unwelcomed instead of appreciated.

Well actually, it's not the senses that are fallible. It's the interpretation of the information that the senses provide us that causes problems. I agree that this level of analysis for simple home audio enjoyment is probably overkill and most people should just buy what they can afford and be happy with the sound.

The trouble starts when people categorically state things like: "My JPS Labs speakerwires sound better than zip cord because of their proprietary crystal lattice structure, doing recommended burn in period and the mathematical analysis of Jon Risch."

[mtrycraft]

You sure have lots of trouble with simple tasks. I take that as a "no". Which is the foundation behind a number of previous posts that refer to that notion.

rw

How so? Getting a better expert is just that. Who said he had an expert to begin with?
What was his evidence? Zero.

[pctower]

I didn't say that personal accounts don't hold weight. What I am saying is that if you take 100 personal accounts, a certain percentage will be accurate, a certain percentage will be close, a certain percentage will be off a little, and a certain percentage will be right out to lunch.

What these percentages are is anybody's guess. But if you give me a personal account I have no way of knowing which category you fall into so I can't take your personal account to heart. I would expect that you feel the same way about me although when most people learn I have not heard differences in wires they automatically put me in the "out to lunch" category.



I know a lot of you feel this way. We would all like to think we approach our in home testing with a completely objective frame of mind. However, it has been conclusively shown that there are many factors that we are not conciously aware of that can influence us. That doesn't mean you can't accurately assess anything in your audio system, just that there are pitfalls that could manifest themselves without you even knowing it.

"We would all like to think we approach our in home testing with a completely objective frame of mind. "

Make that "all" minus one.

I could care less if I approach home "testing" with an objective mind. The only "testing" I'm doing is what brings me pleasure. If I were focused on whether I'm "objective" or not, the pleasure would be gone. Anything that gets in the way of pleasure in my soundroom is strickly forbidden in accordance with a scrupulously enforced zero tolereance policy.

[E-Stat]

How so?

Your inability to follow a simple "yes" or "no" question. Most kindergarteners are able to do that very well.

Getting a better expert is just that. Who said he had an expert to begin with?
What was his evidence? Zero.

Why all the pussyfooting around? Why don't you simply say that you have never read of any evidence to support the notion of cable break in effects? In your experience-free world, that's all you can do anyway, isn't it? You have nothing to add to the discussion yourself. The limitation with simply quoting others is that you really never do understand the reasons why.

rw

[Ogeez]

At the risk of putting my foot in my mouth here is my 2 cents:

I spent a long time reading all your quips and quibles and in between there were references made about wires and the test that was done which started all this but I must say that the bottom line IN MY OPINION is simply put all related to your own ears, equipment, and room configuration. If you like what you hear with what you've got then who cares. If you listen to jazz, funk, R&B, Metal or Opera, each theme does what it does regardless of the equipment. If you have the money to compare cheapos with expensivos then knock yourself out. Make the conclusion yourself and enjoy the choice you make. If you do not have the money to compare then go with what your budget allows and live with the consequences. In the long run your ears, choice of tunes and your pocket book will dictate the final say so. If it's a pissing contest you are trying to win, then why are there locks on your doors? Is it not to keep people out of your sanctuary?

Thanks for the fun read guys.

:-)

[mtrycraft]

Thanks for the fun read guys.

:-)

Great, that is what it's supposed to be

[mtrycraft]

Your inability to follow a simple "yes" or "no" question. Most kindergarteners are able to do that very well.



Why all the pussyfooting around? Why don't you simply say that you have never read of any evidence to support the notion of cable break in effects? In your experience-free world, that's all you can do anyway, isn't it? You have nothing to add to the discussion yourself. The limitation with simply quoting others is that you really never do understand the reasons why.

rw

Nothing wrong with simple, to the point answers like 'get a better epxert' or 'get a real expert.'


Oh, I do understand the reasons why. It is you who has a difficulty.

[Rikki]

Let's try something simple that will require only a yes or a no.

Based upon your experience (either personal or by way of literature), do you find evidence for the concept of wire break in effects?

Remember - just "yes" or "no". I have every confidence in your ability to succeed.

rw

no

(small problem with your instructions, responses must be at least 5 characters on this site )