CD is dead. Long live Vinyl?

[PeruvianSkies]

I wonder what artists with their photographs hanging in galleries use. I know Stanley Kubrick, the filmaker, had a preference for an older camera that was used in Eyes Wide Shut. Wouldn't shoot without it I read. Your close strikes me as odd. Good for you for saying it but sounds kind of brain dead to me (regards analog). Why would you derive less serious musical appreciation from what's in those grooves any less than what's it those bits? What I'm getting is that your preference for the newer technology is strong. Too strong. But you don''t have many albums, anyway. You won't be gettin nominated for romantic of the year . . maybe pragmatist. I'm bettin that if you were to spend an afternoon at my house, you'd have an serious appreciation of music on vinyl. If you could be open minded, that is. Just in case, I got somethin for that.

Kubrick was one of the few filmmakers who was also a cinematographer at the same time because he understood the motion picture camera inside and out. He knew how to get a certain 'look' and 'feel', which all of his films contain a unique signature to them that IS Kubrick. Each of his films he used a variety of cameras, but most of the time was using Mitchell and older models that often times gave a unique look, but more important to that is the film stock, which Kubrick also knew much about and would always make sure that the finished product resembled his vision and that requires the knowledge of all of the equipment. Of course BARRY LYNDON is one of the more famous stories where he retro-fitted Zeiss lenses onto the Mitchell (I believe BNC) models and was able to get the candles without any other lighting except natural lighting, this also gave the film little depth of film and flattened it out like a 17th Century painting, which was also appropriate.

The look of EYES WIDE SHUT is very interesting as well because it has a very golden tone to it, but also it has tons of grain and is relatively over-saturated to some degree, but there are contrasting golden scenes with light colder blue ones that work so well for the film and again, the result is a unique trademark that few films have this same quality.

[nightflier]

Basite,

If only we could have bought beer at 16, just imagine...

So what kind of speakers are you considering?

[Woochifer]

One of the guys here, not mentioning any names, Wooch, fails to see any increase in vinyl sales. I also noticed Amazon.com is carrying vinyl now. I haven't looked up any titles but I bet they have it cheaper than any of the other internet dealers of new vinyl. Quite an interesting trend.

Interesting trend in the sense that retailers are picking up on vinyl. However, are these retailers adding vinyl because the market is growing or because so many existing music outlets that previously sold vinyl have disappeared over the last decade? I'm remain unconvinced that Amazon and other retailers suddenly adding vinyl to their offerings will have a significant bottomline impact on the overall market. The article cited by the original poster contains these a couple of choice factoids:

"Our numbers, at least, don't really point to a resurgence," said Jonathan Lamy, the Recording Industry Association of America's director of communications. Likewise, Nielsen SoundScan, which registered a slight increase in vinyl sales last year, nonetheless showed a 43 percent decrease between 2000 and 2006.

Yet, the article keeps referring to a vinyl resurgence as if it was a factual trend without any solid data to back it up.

Like I've said in many previous discussions on this topic, talk of a vinyl "resurgence" has been ongoing since at least the early-90s when grunge bands began pressuring the record labels to issue their albums on LP. The primary change with vinyl over the past decade is that record companies now market LPs as a low volume, high margin product, which is a very different approach than when the LP was actually a mainstream format that cost less than the CD. And all the while, the majority of music continues to be sold on CDs, and the most significant market trend has been the shift towards digital file downloads.

The only way for the LP to become "mainstream" again would entail putting entire libraries of titles back into release, and competitively pricing them. Good luck trying to get any of the RIAA members to do that, given that all of them now outsource their LP manufacturing to small-scale production houses like RTI (which was interviewed for the article). The entire infrastructure for manufacturing LPs simply isn't setup for low cost, high volume production anymore. That's a major point that the article misses entirely.

I still have a turntable and prefer the sound of many LPs over their CD counterparts. Personally, I would love it if these vinyl prognostications came to pass -- I would personally benefit from more title and hardware choices, and better access to vinyl and turntable accessories. But, wishful thinking does not translate into market success. Just because the CD format is in a protracted decline does not mean that the LP will save the day in the end. Just because I'm not into digital file downloading does not deny the fact that it's now a much more significant driving force in the music industry than the LP.

Problem with articles like this is that they recycle long repeated points about vinyl's virtues and generalize personal preferences and observations into presumptions about larger trends, while ignoring the market data that tracks actual spending behavior. A previous thread on this subject cited a "scientific" study that talked about how young people preferred vinyl. Sounds like a great finding, until you find that the study was merely than an attitudinal survey. Sure, respondents said that they prefer vinyl, but how many of them had actually purchased LPs or turntables recently?

Teens say they like vinyl records over CDs

I agree with the Wired article in the sense that the vinyl format will survive long after the CD goes by the wayside (the DJ market alone will ensure the turntable's survival). However, just because the LP will outlive the CD does not mean that the LP will somehow grow beyond its current status as a niche format.

[Feanor]

El-Cheapo noise reduction software exists, but you get what you pay for. Also, your not limited to software, there are hardware solutions too.

...

Circa 1978 I briefly owned a Phase Linear 4000 preamp, (yes! four channel), that had noise reduction. It sort of worked but I never decided really how well because the 4000 sounded like crap in general. I ended up with an Apt Holman.

[basite]

So what kind of speakers are you considering?

check your PM's

[JohnMichael]

check your PM's

I would also like to know.

[Mr Peabody]

Yeah, Bassite, let us all know. We won't make fun of you buying Bose...., much

Wooch, just giving you a hard time. When vinyl was taken off the market it left us to searching used stores and yard sales. There has to be some increase in interest for vinyl to become available new from so many outlets. The market has changed quite a bit from the 80's and even the record companies have changed for putting out CD's. I agree vinyl will never return to what it was in the market place. I'm hoping with Amazon jumping on the bandwagon that prices will go down some though. It also costs more to press a 180 to 200 gram album though and Mobile Fidelity was never cheap although still cheaper than most new vinyl today.

[jrhymeammo]

JM,

I used the one by both Vacuum State and turntable basics. I like the one by vacuum state better.

I agree with your experience on mounting a cart.
I like getting head low with my nuts up high.

Regards,

[JohnMichael]

JM,

I used the one by both Vacuum State and turntable basics. I like the one by vacuum state better.

I agree with your experience on mounting a cart.
I like getting head low with my nuts up high.

Regards,

I tried my best to give you rep points for this one.

[jrhymeammo]

I was in absolute joy when I was browsing thru Amazon's vinyl search. I was thinking "WOW, look at all the BNs they have!!!" But what good is it when more than half are Out of Stock(very unlikey for a restock....) and most of them are used.

I must say, if I hadnt lived in Denver, I dont think I would've got into records. There were 3-4 record stores within walking distance and 4-5 more with a little drive. Here in Lexington, it's an absolute disaster. But a nice drive to Cincy tames my windigo.
With that in my, Peace Out! I think i'll go to Louisville.

Regards,

[basite]

I would also like to know.

Yeah, Bassite, let us all know. We won't make fun of you buying Bose...., much

Okay, Okay

I will give you some hints, which may, or may not guide you in the right direction.

1: It's not Bose, neither are they tiny
2: They're from America, where they are also built.
3: They're out of production since 2003, since then, their new model has continued this range...

Happy guessing, Rep points for who guesses right

no; those 3 who already know are not allowed to give the right answer before anyone else does, It would be kinda unfair

Keep them spinning,
Bert.

[Mr Peabody]

Martin Logan? If so, awesome choice.

I don't think Klipsch are built in U.S. anymore but please please don't say it's Klipsch.

I'm at a loss really as to what is even built here anymore. U.S. built should really limit the options.

[basite]

4: they're not planars, I wish my room was big enough for planars...

[Bernd]

Lithe ???

[basite]

5: no, they're not klipsches...
6: thick front baffle
7: coaxial mid/tweeter

(6&7 are pretty much dead giveaways...)

[jrhymeammo]

I still think you shouldnt getting a pair of Cain & Cain Abby. It would be crazy loud with your Mac!!!

[bobsticks]

I still think you shouldnt getting a pair of Cain & Cain Abby. It would be crazy loud with your Mac!!!

Nah, that wouldn't work. It'd be like putting .410 shotgun sheels in a 44MAG. A bit of overkill and really good for nothing. I thought briefly of picking up a pair of C&C's for use with a low-watt SET amp in a secondary setup but it seemed kinda limited. Overall, the best combo that I could mentally configure was a computer going straight to an Outlaw R2150 via USB, into the c&C's with a REL subwoofer. How's that for a mini system?

I suspect that our young friend is going a little higher up the food chain. Maybe some Tylers or Salk Sound? Those Veracitys are sure nice...

I'm surprised Flo hasn't been on this thread to gently explain that MLs aren't planars but electrostats.

Okay, Bert, I gotta know. Give me the PM.

[bobsticks]

Kewl.

Yer gonna piss off a lot of people. Nice work.

[jrhymeammo]

Kewl.

Yer gonna piss off a lot of people. Nice work.

I know, I'm really jealous cuz his systems gonna sound better than mine. Damn it, now I'm forced to upgrade. Hehehe.


Has anyone here found anything they want on Amazon? I think the selection is worst than mediocre. I hope they'll get it worked out, cuz I miss buying music thru Amazon. I used to get at least 1 package a week from Amazon when I used to live in Johnson City, TN.(What a Sh*t hole that place was....)

Happy listening to all,

[bobsticks]

I know, I'm really jealous cuz his systems gonna sound better than mine. Damn it, now I'm forced to upgrade. Hehehe.

While this may be true, nobody...and I mean nobody... does a better job at finding system synergy with the weirdest possible combos than our own periscope to unbalanced behavior in the modern world, Jay-Ra.

I know I eagerly await your next report on whatever Mr. Quan-San's Moss-Covered Three Handled Family Gredunzel KT 90 Tube doohickey...



...just kiddin' b

[Woochifer]

Wooch, just giving you a hard time. When vinyl was taken off the market it left us to searching used stores and yard sales. There has to be some increase in interest for vinyl to become available new from so many outlets. The market has changed quite a bit from the 80's and even the record companies have changed for putting out CD's. I agree vinyl will never return to what it was in the market place. I'm hoping with Amazon jumping on the bandwagon that prices will go down some though. It also costs more to press a 180 to 200 gram album though and Mobile Fidelity was never cheap although still cheaper than most new vinyl today.

A big part of that Wired article's argument is the ubiquity and high prices that used vinyl commands on eBay and similar outlets. To me, this does not represent market growth for the LP, but rather the evolution of LPs into more of a collector's item rather than something destined for mass consumption.

Used LPs have escalated in value simply because most of titles are out of print and will likely remain out of print, which in turn increases the scarcity (or perception thereof) that drives the market for any collector's item. Unlike CDs, vinyl can and will vary significantly from copy to copy -- the condition will vary, the pressing quality will vary, the mastering will vary. In-demand titles in mint/new condition will command attention and a high price simply because the number of quality LPs copies for most titles continues to decrease over time. You don't have the same collector's value with CDs because they either play or don't play -- you won't find much difference in value between one used CD copy over another.

While some outlets like Amazon and (purportedly) Circuit City recently added LPs to their offerings, you also need to consider the huge number of retail music stores that have been lost over the past decade. Between 1998 and 2005, the number of music stores in the U.S. declined from around 8,000 to about 5,500. (U.S. Census, County Business Patterns)

A lot of this had to do with CD sales shifting over to big box stores like WalMart, Best Buy, and Target, but these dedicated music outlets were also the likeliest places where you would find vinyl, and if a product line loses over 30% of its potential retailer outlets, then it needs to find new places of commerce. Sure, Amazon's a nice addition, but 2,500 defunct music stores also results in a market gap that these new vinyl outlets have an opportunity to fill. Until I see unit sales trending significantly upward (and none of the data I've seen shows LP sales in any kind of overall long term recovery), I can only conclude that this is more of a shift in demand from one retail avenue to another, rather than a fundamental increase in demand.

As for LP pricing, my Mobile Fidelity copy of Pink Floyd's The Dark Side Of The Moon still has the $17.99 price tag from Tower Records (R.I.P.) on the sleeve. Taking inflation into account, most of the new LPs nowadays are priced at about the same price points where you found audiophile vinyl in the mid-80s. Not much though is priced at a similar inflation-adjusted price point as the LPs that commonly sold for $5.99 to $8.99 during that same time period.

[jrhymeammo]

I had recently posted a thread about Classic Records releasing some of the BNote's most influential albums in 45rpm.
($50 an album)

I had decided to get on Acoustic Sounds and see what I can get for $300 to put under my TT, then the Homepage caught my attention.
They used words like "Universal", "Limited", "Japan", and other meaningless words I cannot remember...
Anyhow, I placed an order for a copy of:

Stevie Wonder - Innervision
Charlie Parker - Now's the Time

You guys should check it out, they got albums for almost everyone. Classical, Jazz, Stones, The Police, Clapton, Marley, etc.
($40 a pop, ouch..)

Finally, one of my recent favorites, Ben Webster. Analog Production has reissue of At the Renaissance for $150!! Just when I was checking out with 2 mentioned above, I noticed that I had

Coleman Hawkins - Night
Hawk

in my shopping cart for $75. Whatta hell was it doing in my shopping cart, and most imortantly whatta F' was I THINKING!!

Of course these are not for everyone, and it's not like companies have stop pressing wimpy 120Gs for $10 a pop. But I dont see'em producing great titles for $15 either..

If analog really is a niche market then fine, but I think this is going to far.

Regards,

PS, does anyone here wanna get rid of a copy of Amused to Death by Roger W? I'll pay $300 or $500 sealed.

[Mr Peabody]

A big part of that Wired article's argument is the ubiquity and high prices that used vinyl commands on eBay and similar outlets. To me, this does not represent market growth for the LP, but rather the evolution of LPs into more of a collector's item rather than something destined for mass consumption.

Used LPs have escalated in value simply because most of titles are out of print and will likely remain out of print, which in turn increases the scarcity (or perception thereof) that drives the market for any collector's item. Unlike CDs, vinyl can and will vary significantly from copy to copy -- the condition will vary, the pressing quality will vary, the mastering will vary. In-demand titles in mint/new condition will command attention and a high price simply because the number of quality LPs copies for most titles continues to decrease over time. You don't have the same collector's value with CDs because they either play or don't play -- you won't find much difference in value between one used CD copy over another.

> I'm not so sure about that, people were dumping vinyl in the 80's, you couldn't give it away let alone sell it. So why would people think it scarce now? Especially with titles being pressed new. By all accounts vinyl should have been a thing of the past by now. But it's not and people are buying turntables used/new and vinyl has become a commodity again.

While some outlets like Amazon and (purportedly) Circuit City recently added LPs to their offerings, you also need to consider the huge number of retail music stores that have been lost over the past decade. Between 1998 and 2005, the number of music stores in the U.S. declined from around 8,000 to about 5,500. (U.S. Census, County Business Patterns)

> I have been in several music stores since the 80's when vinyl went out and I have never seen new vinyl for sale. This isn't to say some where it may have been. The only place I've found vinyl until recent years was used records stores and other outlets for used vinyl.

A lot of this had to do with CD sales shifting over to big box stores like WalMart, Best Buy, and Target, but these dedicated music outlets were also the likeliest places where you would find vinyl, and if a product line loses over 30% of its potential retailer outlets, then it needs to find new places of commerce. Sure, Amazon's a nice addition, but 2,500 defunct music stores also results in a market gap that these new vinyl outlets have an opportunity to fill. Until I see unit sales trending significantly upward (and none of the data I've seen shows LP sales in any kind of overall long term recovery), I can only conclude that this is more of a shift in demand from one retail avenue to another, rather than a fundamental increase in demand.

As for LP pricing, my Mobile Fidelity copy of Pink Floyd's The Dark Side Of The Moon still has the $17.99 price tag from Tower Records (R.I.P.) on the sleeve. Taking inflation into account, most of the new LPs nowadays are priced at about the same price points where you found audiophile vinyl in the mid-80s. Not much though is priced at a similar inflation-adjusted price point as the LPs that commonly sold for $5.99 to $8.99 during that same time period.

> I actually have yet to buy a new vinyl and if the prices remain where they are at I won't. Now that I go to the record show occasionally and recently took a friends collection off his hands, I have vinyl backed up to listen to for some time. When my brother worked for the trash company he was hooking me up with free vinyl. He knew I wanted it, and if he found any that wasn't, trash, he'd bring them over. I ended up with a sealed copy of the Police, Syncronicity like that.

[Woochifer]

> I actually have yet to buy a new vinyl and if the prices remain where they are at I won't. Now that I go to the record show occasionally and recently took a friends collection off his hands, I have vinyl backed up to listen to for some time. When my brother worked for the trash company he was hooking me up with free vinyl. He knew I wanted it, and if he found any that wasn't, trash, he'd bring them over. I ended up with a sealed copy of the Police, Syncronicity like that.

Ah, that recalls the glory days of vinyl by the pound sales and dumpster diving!

The golden age of used vinyl was that window of time when the CD began to push the LP and cassette formats out the door. You had retailers desperate to clear out their remaining stock of LPs, and consumers desperate to sell their LPs so they could repopulate their music collections with CDs. Since I was a starving college student at the time, I could much more easily afford used LPs in excellent condition selling for less than $1 each than the newfangled CDs that were selling for approximately $14-$16 each (nearly twice what an average new LP cost). Problem with that market shift is that it devalued LPs to the point that it drove a lot of music retailers in my area specializing in quality used vinyl out of business (some of which did collector's grading on each LP).

Now, we're in a market where that stock of high quality low cost vinyl is largely depleted. What remains for sale is generally cheap vinyl is less than stellar condition and quality vinyl that commands a price premium. It's still possible to unearth a choice LP in the used record bins, but my searches as of late have been a lot less fruitful (and more expensive) than before.

[JohnMichael]

5: no, they're not klipsches...
6: thick front baffle
7: coaxial mid/tweeter

(6&7 are pretty much dead giveaways...)

I had two thoughts on the matter. KEF came to mind with their Uni Q drivers or some Thiel speakers.