CD is dead. Long live Vinyl?

[squeegy200]

The digital delivery of music seems to have absorbed much of the sales of traditional CDs.

However, Vinyl sales are rising and market futures look optimistic. Could Vinyl ultimately be around to see the demise of the CD?

http://www.wired.com/entertainment/m...eningpost_1029

[Mr Peabody]

One of the guys here, not mentioning any names, Wooch, fails to see any increase in vinyl sales. I also noticed Amazon.com is carrying vinyl now. I haven't looked up any titles but I bet they have it cheaper than any of the other internet dealers of new vinyl. Quite an interesting trend.

[BRANDONH]

One of the guys here, not mentioning any names, Wooch, fails to see any increase in vinyl sales. I also noticed Amazon.com is carrying vinyl now. I haven't looked up any titles but I bet they have it cheaper than any of the other internet dealers of new vinyl. Quite an interesting trend.

OH sweet!!
Amazon now has vinyl too.
I just booked marked it
http://amazon.com/b/ref=amb_link_961...1&pf_rd_i=5174
With free shipping on orders over $25 and no TAX + they will offer new and used OMG this is a great day.
And now that Circuit City is selling them man it just keeps getting better and better.

[JohnMichael]

I was just thinking. Did they not create the SACD format because of what was lacking in cd's compared to vinyl such as ambiance. If SACD were aiming for vinyl I will stick with the original.

[Feanor]

I was just thinking. Did they not create the SACD format because of what was lacking in cd's compared to vinyl such as ambiance. If SACD were aiming for vinyl I will stick with the origianl.

No, SACD was created because the Sony/Phillips CD patents were running out.

But if there is any doubt that CD is better than vinyl, there is none that SACD is. Personally, I have no problem with the Red Book medium though I do own plenty of pretty poorly recorded CDs. Most of the baddies were produced in the 80's; most of the newer ones are good to great -- and not lacking in ambience. Admittedly I am judging by classic music CDs, not those of the "popular" genres.

[Woochifer]

One of the guys here, not mentioning any names, Wooch, fails to see any increase in vinyl sales. I also noticed Amazon.com is carrying vinyl now. I haven't looked up any titles but I bet they have it cheaper than any of the other internet dealers of new vinyl. Quite an interesting trend.

Interesting trend in the sense that retailers are picking up on vinyl. However, are these retailers adding vinyl because the market is growing or because so many existing music outlets that previously sold vinyl have disappeared over the last decade? I'm remain unconvinced that Amazon and other retailers suddenly adding vinyl to their offerings will have a significant bottomline impact on the overall market. The article cited by the original poster contains these a couple of choice factoids:

"Our numbers, at least, don't really point to a resurgence," said Jonathan Lamy, the Recording Industry Association of America's director of communications. Likewise, Nielsen SoundScan, which registered a slight increase in vinyl sales last year, nonetheless showed a 43 percent decrease between 2000 and 2006.

Yet, the article keeps referring to a vinyl resurgence as if it was a factual trend without any solid data to back it up.

Like I've said in many previous discussions on this topic, talk of a vinyl "resurgence" has been ongoing since at least the early-90s when grunge bands began pressuring the record labels to issue their albums on LP. The primary change with vinyl over the past decade is that record companies now market LPs as a low volume, high margin product, which is a very different approach than when the LP was actually a mainstream format that cost less than the CD. And all the while, the majority of music continues to be sold on CDs, and the most significant market trend has been the shift towards digital file downloads.

The only way for the LP to become "mainstream" again would entail putting entire libraries of titles back into release, and competitively pricing them. Good luck trying to get any of the RIAA members to do that, given that all of them now outsource their LP manufacturing to small-scale production houses like RTI (which was interviewed for the article). The entire infrastructure for manufacturing LPs simply isn't setup for low cost, high volume production anymore. That's a major point that the article misses entirely.

I still have a turntable and prefer the sound of many LPs over their CD counterparts. Personally, I would love it if these vinyl prognostications came to pass -- I would personally benefit from more title and hardware choices, and better access to vinyl and turntable accessories. But, wishful thinking does not translate into market success. Just because the CD format is in a protracted decline does not mean that the LP will save the day in the end. Just because I'm not into digital file downloading does not deny the fact that it's now a much more significant driving force in the music industry than the LP.

Problem with articles like this is that they recycle long repeated points about vinyl's virtues and generalize personal preferences and observations into presumptions about larger trends, while ignoring the market data that tracks actual spending behavior. A previous thread on this subject cited a "scientific" study that talked about how young people preferred vinyl. Sounds like a great finding, until you find that the study was merely than an attitudinal survey. Sure, respondents said that they prefer vinyl, but how many of them had actually purchased LPs or turntables recently?

Teens say they like vinyl records over CDs

I agree with the Wired article in the sense that the vinyl format will survive long after the CD goes by the wayside (the DJ market alone will ensure the turntable's survival). However, just because the LP will outlive the CD does not mean that the LP will somehow grow beyond its current status as a niche format.

[Feanor]

The digital delivery of music seems to have absorbed much of the sales of traditional CDs.

However, Vinyl sales are rising and market futures look optimistic. Could Vinyl ultimately be around to see the demise of the CD?

http://www.wired.com/entertainment/m...eningpost_1029

True, downloads will replace many, maybe most, eventually all CD sales. However there is no way that LP sales will depress CD sales to any significant degree.

Vinyl is and will remain a niche product, (not so say the its sales won't increase). The bottom line is the (largely imaginary) sound improvements do not out weight the appalling ergonomics and durability of the medium.

It is also clear that if SACD survives it will be as a niche product. (Possibly it will be replaced by Blu-Ray if and when the latter wins over HD-DVD.) If there is a niche market shoot out, it is likely to be LP versus SACD. It appalls me to think that vinyl might win such a contest.

[JohnMichael]

I am rooting for vinyl.

[Bernd]

Me too!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!! !!

[Feanor]

Me too!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!! !!

... By the deeply irrational responses of JM and Bernd

If it weren't for the better sound, (rice krispie free at very least), better ergonomics, better durability, and -- hell yes -- lower cost, SACD might only beat LP by being multi-channel.

Oh, I forgot: multi-channel LPs are possible and were actually produced for a while -- I guess we'll just have to fall back on SACD's other advantages.

[JohnMichael]

This has been a great day off. All music on vinyl today. Cd is nice as a convenience format but I love the sound quality and hands on approach of vinyl. No rice krispies here.

[GMichael]

Oh no! Will all my CD's stop working now?

[basite]

Oh no! Will all my CD's stop working now?

yes!

you will need a turntable instantly!

(just kiddin)

I too love Vinyl, especially on vintage speakers (like mine), I'm not saying that vinyl will outsell the cd again, but I do say that the black shiny discs will exist forever, albeit not for a big market.

Keep them spinning,
Bert.

[GMichael]

yes!

you will need a turntable instantly!

(just kiddin)

I too love Vinyl, especially on vintage speakers (like mine), I'm not saying that vinyl will outsell the cd again, but I do say that the black shiny discs will exist forever, albeit not for a big market.

Keep them spinning,
Bert.

I have an old Technics TT in the basement. It's a direct drive with "quartz lock." It still works, but I no longer own any LP's. Someone thought that I had too many cases of them and felt that they'd take up less room behind the furnace. The rest, is history.

[jrhymeammo]

AWESOME NEWS!!!

btw, D2D will walk all over SACD. Dynamic range is just "wicked" and makes me wonder if my cantilever is gonna snap off. Of course I'm just a financially challenged 2ch guy.

I'm gonna get on this Amazon thing this weekend.

Cheers,

[jim goulding]

There ain't nothin wrong with two channel. Call me old school but any concert that you have attended the performers were on stage in front of you. Even the concert hall itself can be captured and re-created in two channel accept for applause which in properly recorded surround sound can come from behind your listening position along with more of the feelin that you are there (which means little to me cause I'm always in the cheap seats). And at what cost? I saw Segovia once from a back row, balcony seat. The ambience I heard ain't happenin in home audio so what's the point? Best case, I'm not sure very many labels are recording with this in mind. Perhaps, others can speak to this.

I don't own a squeezebox or listen from a computer. So, disc in some fashion is my preferred way of listening to music. Besides, it ain't bad. Sorry, but vinyl will remain an electic medium even tho it's enjoying another day in the sun helped by purists and manufacturers seizing the moment (some of both originate from Japan where life expectancy is longer). Let me give you a case in point. A treasured record of mine is a Linn release of "All My Tomorrows" by an English bird named Carol Kidd. Linn has re-released this on vinyl- it's a bloody wonderful recording with great repertoire for collectors of such, like me- but on Amazon it's $85.00! I'm thinking maybe contacting Linn direct might produce better options but I don't know. However, on SACD Hybrid, it's $25.00.

The good stuff from Acoustic Sounds, Classic Records, Cisco and such cost $25.00 and more. We're in a pickle, my friend. I may have to learn about listening via a computer. In which case, I know where to come for advice. My daughter might listen to my records once they're hers . . once. Vinyl is for romantics, like me and many others here, and the curious. It will go the way of flatheads. CD might become a chestnut, too. Get em while they're hot!

(a lil later) WTF was I thinking? After a re-read, I don't know why I opened with two channel save for jrhyme's seeming like he was under privileged..

[kexodusc]

Interesting discussion - I share Feanor's sentiments on this one, while I'm proud to own a small library of LP's (30-40), I just can't get enough of the music I like in vinyl, and IMO SACD is far superior that I'll elect to go that route first.
I have a few LP's that sound better than some brutal CD mixes though - I don't blame the CD format, just the engineers who butchered it.

A few years back I read an article on some website somewhere that I tried to find today but couldn't. Maybe someone here will remember it if I try to describe it.

Essentially, it suggested the "weighted average" age of vinyl owners is significantly higher than CD owners. Ie, a 55 - 60 year old guy might have 200 LP's, where a 20 year old kid might have a dozen. The point being something like 90% of LP's are owned and used by people with limited time left on this earth compared to owners of other music formats.

When the aging sector of the market starts dying off at a rate exponentially faster than the CD market (inevitable in 10-25 years), the LP market won't die a long, draw out death, but rapidly die with a whimper.

I suspect LP's will be around for another generation or two in some capacity, but if they dont' start tapping into the younger buyers on a large scale, and fast, I can't see it enduring for long.

CD might give way to something newer and better, (or worse but more convenient) but I'm sure Vinyl will have nothing to do with its demise.

[JohnMichael]

Essentially, it suggested the "weighted average" age of vinyl owners is significantly higher than CD owners. Ie, a 55 - 60 year old guy might have 200 LP's, where a 20 year old kid might have a dozen. The point being something like 90% of LP's are owned and used by people with limited time left on this earth compared to owners of other music formats.

Hey I am 51 and I resemble those remarks.

[Bernd]

Yeah, I am 46 and expect to listen for another 46 to the black stuff. There will be no surrender to the sunny delight generation with their 1s and 0s.

[bobsticks]

Yeah, I am 46 and expect to listen for another 46 to the black stuff. There will be no surrender to the sunny delight generation with their 1s and 0s.

Hey, stop that. Where's my Ocean Spray?

[Bernd]

Hey, stop that. Where's my Ocean Spray?

Not in my fridge.

[bobsticks]

I suspect LP's will be around for another generation or two in some capacity, but if they dont' start tapping into the younger buyers on a large scale, and fast, I can't see it enduring for long.

Which will be difficult given the relatively expensive nature of even a decent vinyl rig. The industry seems to be at odds with itself in terms of longterm success.

[SlumpBuster]

A few years back I read an article on some website somewhere that I tried to find today but couldn't. Maybe someone here will remember it if I try to describe it.

Essentially, it suggested the "weighted average" age of vinyl owners is significantly higher than CD owners. Ie, a 55 - 60 year old guy might have 200 LP's, where a 20 year old kid might have a dozen. The point being something like 90% of LP's are owned and used by people with limited time left on this earth compared to owners of other music formats.

When the aging sector of the market starts dying off at a rate exponentially faster than the CD market (inevitable in 10-25 years), the LP market won't die a long, draw out death, but rapidly die with a whimper.

I suspect LP's will be around for another generation or two in some capacity, but if they dont' start tapping into the younger buyers on a large scale, and fast, I can't see it enduring for long.

Conversely, the opposite could be true as boomers start dying off. As their collections are sold off the LP market could become swiftly gutted. Suddenly, unknown copies of the Butcher cover will start surfacing. Prices will drop and collectors will line up searching to complete their artist catalogues. I'm only 32, I think Jra is younger than me, and Bert's only 17, so there are plenty of young advocates. Vinyl has been dying for 30 years since the entry of the cassette. It will never go away because it does offer full dynamic range and frequency range. Sure it could use better channel separation, but that's okay. Only lo-fi mediums like 8-track and cassette die complete deaths. Although reel to reel was a hi-fi medium that died a comlete death, so I could be wrong.

[Feanor]

Interesting discussion - I share Feanor's sentiments on this one, while I'm proud to own a small library of LP's (30-40), I just can't get enough of the music I like in vinyl, and IMO SACD is far superior that I'll elect to go that route first.
...

Essentially, it suggested the "weighted average" age of vinyl owners is significantly higher than CD owners. Ie, a 55 - 60 year old guy might have 200 LP's, where a 20 year old kid might have a dozen. The point being something like 90% of LP's are owned and used by people with limited time left on this earth compared to owners of other music formats.

...
CD might give way to something newer and better, (or worse but more convenient) but I'm sure Vinyl will have nothing to do with its demise.

Kex, others,

I'm 62. I have about 120 LPs left over from "the day"; (I had over 200 at one point but sold or gave away many). I recently bought an old Technics TT to replace my Rat Shack that broke, and a new Denon DL-110 cartridge. The LPs sounded pretty good, obviously some better than others. However I heard nothing that would even vaguely imply that the sound was better than a well-recorded CD. OK -- granted this vinyl rig of mine is entry level at best, but I haven't listen to any vinyl for several months and I have little temptation to do so.

Will vinyl catch on with younger people? Yes, to some extend, largely driven by the glamorous DJ image, but they will always be a product a small niche market . Nor will they displace CDs. If CDs gradually vanish, it will be because they are replaced by downloads, and that would be just fine with me provided the downloads are equal (or higher) rez and don't cost any more than actual CDs today.

[jim goulding]

I must be the elder statesman on this topic. I own a ton of albums. In a few cases, the same title on vinyl and silver. My players are of similar quality except that I have one more TT rig than I do CD player (Sony transport/Bel Canto dac). Vinyl wins in every shoot out I've conducted for sounding more organic and involving except one and that would be Carmina Burana on Telarc SACD Hybrid. Now, we're just talking maybe a dozen titles but sometimes, as in Bruce Springsteen's Tunnel Of Love, for example, it's embarrassingly lopsided. I agree that CD has gotten much better since the 80's. Plain ole red book CD's. I've got plenty that sound absolutely fantastic and enjoy them thoroughly.