CD is dead. Long live Vinyl?

[Mr Peabody]

Do you all know companies like Audio Teknika and Numark have turntables with USB hook up and software to remove clicks & pops? The AT is $95.00 and the Numark is $123.00 at Amazon. I was half tempted but I'm afraid I couldn't get it to work. I'm lucky to be able to rip from my own CD's.

[jrhymeammo]

Do you all know companies like Audio Teknika and Numark have turntables with USB hook up and software to remove clicks & pops? The AT is $95.00 and the Numark is $123.00 at Amazon. I was half tempted but I'm afraid I couldn't get it to work. I'm lucky to be able to rip from my own CD's.

I would like to comment, without a single research.

It just doesnt make any sense to how a program can removes pops and clicks.

I think all it does is to remove certain frequency of music. But if it just detects and smooths out certain pulses or bursts of sound, then I guess it is possible. If anything, I would get one by Pro-Ject that is made half decently. Then purchase the program. But if you do that, why would you want to spend hundreds of dollars just to play music that's gonna sound inferior to what you already have. Mr. Pea, you are defintelky more towards a purist when it comes to audio. I'm not sure if you want to add more filters and processes to your sound. But instead, you should play around with a Low output MC cart. You already have a great phono pre....... Just a thought.

JRA

[jim goulding]

I must be the elder statesman on this topic. I own a ton of albums. In a few cases, the same title on vinyl and silver. My players are of similar quality except that I have one more TT rig than I do CD player (Sony transport/Bel Canto dac). Vinyl wins in every shoot out I've conducted for sounding more organic and involving except one and that would be Carmina Burana on Telarc SACD Hybrid. Now, we're just talking maybe a dozen titles but sometimes, as in Bruce Springsteen's Tunnel Of Love, for example, it's embarrassingly lopsided. I agree that CD has gotten much better since the 80's. Plain ole red book CD's. I've got plenty that sound absolutely fantastic and enjoy them thoroughly.

[Mr Peabody]

I've often wondered how that program works myself.

The only reason I'd do it is to put some of my favorite stuff from vinyl either on my mp3 or burn to CD for auto. That way I could enjoy a song more than once in a blue moon even though it wouldn't be in all it's glory.

[Bernd]

Hey, stop that. Where's my Ocean Spray?

Not in my fridge.

[SlumpBuster]

El-Cheapo noise reduction software exists, but you get what you pay for. Also, your not limited to software, there are hardware solutions too.

Check these out:

http://www.esotericsound.com/sfwr.htm

http://www.esotericsound.com/NoiseReduction.htm I like the one that goes for $7000.00

[Feanor]

I must be the elder statesman on this topic. I own a ton of albums. In a few cases, the same title on vinyl and silver. My players are of similar quality except that I have one more TT rig than I do CD player (Sony transport/Bel Canto dac). Vinyl wins in every shoot out I've conducted for sounding more organic and involving except one and that would be Carmina Burana on Telarc SACD Hybrid. Now, we're just talking maybe a dozen titles but sometimes, as in Bruce Springsteen's Tunnel Of Love, for example, it's embarrassingly lopsided. I agree that CD has gotten much better since the 80's. Plain ole red book CD's. I've got plenty that sound absolutely fantastic and enjoy them thoroughly.

I'm certainly not against "organic" or "involving". Nor do I deny that something of the qualities might pertain to vinyl more than CD. Fairly recentlyI switch my digital amp for a tube preamp and high-bias, low-feedback S/S amps, and they have deliverd a good measure of organic and involving qualties.

Nevertheless it is still my opinion that my digital amp was better -- and more accurate -- with really well-recorded CDs than is my current setup. On the other hand my new setup is better with 80% of recordings. So there's the trade off.

In the end, my personal objections to vinyl are not sound, but rathe:

• Ergonomics and durability
• Availability of the sort of music I listen to
• Multichannel sound -- though this is more hypothetical than real in general, including for me.

[nightflier]

Essentially, it suggested the "weighted average" age of vinyl owners is significantly higher than CD owners. Ie, a 55 - 60 year old guy might have 200 LP's, where a 20 year old kid might have a dozen. The point being something like 90% of LP's are owned and used by people with limited time left on this earth compared to owners of other music formats.

When the aging sector of the market starts dying off at a rate exponentially faster than the CD market (inevitable in 10-25 years), the LP market won't die a long, draw out death, but rapidly die with a whimper.

Well I wasn't much into LPs until my grandfather passed away and willed me a room-full of LPs. Many of these were not even opened (I guess his time also ran out). I now have a ton of 50s-60s jazz and classical I never even knew existed. If you'd asked me about this 10 years ago, I would have wondered why you even asked. I was all about CDs.

But with the LPs, what is most enjoyable to me (and my kids, apparently), is the mechanics and the tangible elements. We'll flick all the switches on in the "listening room," pull the LP out, lay it on the 'table, fasten the clamp, spin up the record player, carefully dust off the disk, set the needle ready to drop, all while waiting for everything to warm up. My kids will take their place on each corner of the couch, I slowly drop the needle down and...magic... Strauss/Zeppelin/Cornette starts to play and fill the whole room with sound. I then take my place between them and we study the cover and the artwork. I think my kids get a kick out of watching me fuss over the details and all the moving parts while all the LEDs are flickering. Will they be vinylphiles some day? You betcha. This experience is priceless to me.

Yes, there are snaps and pops, and you know what? It doesn't matter - in a way it adds to the atmosphere in the room. And as far as not being surround sound, when done right, there's plenty of ambiance, depth and scale to the vinyl-based music to make up for that. Now, I'm not against the disks and the digital formats, I even have an extensive collection of SACDs, but there is nothing that can replace the fun of this experience. It's just not the same to plug in the MP3 player and click the scroll button. I also happen to think that LPs give a different, very analog sound that no digital medium has ever given me, but in the end it's the whole process of listening to LPs and enjoying the artwork that makes it that much more special. And as a bonus, my wife gets an hour to herself while I "entertain" the young'uns.

And this isn't just for the kids. When friends and family are over, there's nothing like spinning up a little Telemann during dinner, or some Coltrane when we're sitting outside by the BBQ, or spinning up Billy Joel's Piano Man when my college buddies are over. Yes, I can also put a set of CDs in the changer, even set it in random mode to add a little spice, but it's just not the same. Maybe the length of a single side of an LP is the perfect length between conversation topics or courses in a meal, I don't know, but at least with LPs and a good sound system, you always have something else to break the ice with newly invited guests. "...Oh, you still play records? ...wow that really takes me back... it sounds a whole lot better than that old Ratshack player I keep in the garage...you wouldn't have Bruce Springsteen on vinyl, would you?" Call me a Luddite if you must, but LPs have turned a whole lot of my wife's "awkward" get-togethers around.

Does digital sound better? I don't know. Is it more enjoyable? Absolutely not. And as far as the LPs costing too much, that's nonsense - just don't buy them new. I have bought maybe 5 LPs new since I've come back to listening to them, but I must have bought hundreds used. If you search hard enough, you'll find good quality LPs for a whole lot less than the comparable CD. And regarding the artwork, how can I forget the fantastic album covers of Santana, Yes, Rush, even Iron Maiden from my, ahem, wilder days. I even have a few picture disks left. Yes, you get a picture on a CD too, but is that really the same?

* Ergonomics and durability: That is it's very charm
* Availability of the sort of music I listen to: I still think there's more on Vinyl than on CD, if anything, there's quite a bit, no matter what you listen to.
* Multichannel sound: For me, only a few classical titles really shine in SACD surround - a good stereo setup can go a long way to meeting that expectation.

...and yes, a better table/cartridge/phono-preamp help a whole lot.

[jim goulding]

Nightflier, you're a romantic at heart. Enjoyed reading this immensely. But, do you really listen to Coltrane when you BBQ?

[Bernd]

Nightflier, that was a superb read. This should be made a sticky here.
Kudos to you for bringing the pleassure of vinyl and the appreciation of music in general to the young ones.
I feel exactely as you about playing vinyl. The little surface noise there is adds to the experience. And lets be honest "life is noisy".
Also, because you never get the set up 100% right there is always more music to discover from those black discs then you thought.

[basite]

Nightflier, That was very very very true! And with that you actually explained the most important factor in our hobby, the joy of listening to your music, and enjoy your gear.

and I don't have any led's on my tt (only a strobe light, which looks good too at night), but I can honestly tell you that listening to vinyl at night (or at any other moment) is more enjoyable than any cd. With Frank Sinatra's 'Blues in the night' on vinyl for example, just demands you to listen, to just shut up and don't care about anything else than the music. and that's what matters.

Keep them spinning,
Bert.

[Feanor]

How may people here own and use a film camera? I suspect quite a few own one since digital is barely a decade old, but I'll bet most actually use a digital exclusively.

At about age 12 I interested in photography. My first camera was Kodak Brownie Hawkeye. I really wanted a more advanced camera, and at 14 I got a fixed-lens rangefinder camera for Christmas, (a Japanese Petri). Of course, I really wanted a Leica or Canon model with interchangable lenses.

It's a long story. For a brief time I did actually own a Leica M3 which was absolutely the finest device I've ever owned, though I've own fine cameras (and lots of other stuff) since then.

Recently I looking around eBay and talked myself into buying a couple of rangefinder cameras. One is a Russian Kiev A4, a quite handsome copy of the famous pre-war Contax II. To go with it, I bought three Russian lens, again, good copies of Zeiss Ikon lenses.

A few months have gone by and I had fun taking a few rolls of film. I should point out that this camera of 65 year old design has no automatic exposure much less autofocus. But I rememebered the F/16 rule, (how many or you know this?), so I can take good pictures outdoors under most conditions without consulting a exposure meter. (I have a couple of really excellent old exposure meters too.)

It's been good fun and certainly nostalgic: going back almost 50 years to my adolescence. But know what? The digital camera takes better better pictures with much more convenience. So I might haul out the Kiev and the various lenses once and while for the fun, but for serious picture taking it's the digital.

So I might keep my small LP collection a little longer and listen one once in a while for nostalgia's sake, but this won't be serious music appreciation.

[nightflier]

Feanor,

Interesting you should bring up cameras. I had a chance to play with the Leica digital and while it does offer many of the manual tuning features, it really wasn't the Leicas I remember. My father is a photographer and camera collector and he's the one who impressed on me the beauty of analog photography and I think it applies to music as well.

With analog film, even from a mediocre camera, the image can be exposed onto just about any size photographic paper, meaning that it's a lot like a raster image, it does not degrade as you zoom into it (provided you have the projector and photographic paper to do so, of course). This is impossible with digital because you're dealing with a finite pixel count - even the most advanced digital cameras have this limit because the medium is limitted - think of zooming in on a bit-mapped image.

With music, I think the same logic can apply. I don't know if I can quantify it the same way, but there is just the sense that zooming in on the microdynamics of an analog recording will not expose weaknesses like it would with a digital medium. Yes, the snap, crackle pop will still be there, but beyond that, what else is there to find fault with? The digital medium has always suffered from having to compare itself to the analog. Digital technology, whether in music or photography, will always be an approximation of the analog reality. Nature is not digital, it is analog.

Now we can debate ad infinitum on whether the digital medium's approximation shortcommings are audible, but I don't think that conversation would ever end.

By the way, my oldest is quite fond of my latest analog toy: an old Hasselblad top-down camera. It's about as analog as you can get and it takes quite a bit of work to get a good picture, but that is it's charm, I suppose. Oh yes, it takes great pictures of us sitting on the porch listening to Coltrane while I try and BBQ something (BBQ'ing is one analog skill I sorely lack).

[jim goulding]

I wonder what artists with their photographs hanging in galleries use. I know Stanley Kubrick, the filmaker, had a preference for an older camera that was used in Eyes Wide Shut. Wouldn't shoot without it I read. Your close strikes me as odd. Good for you for saying it but sounds kind of brain dead to me (regards analog). Why would you derive less serious musical appreciation from what's in those grooves any less than what's it those bits? What I'm getting is that your preference for the newer technology is strong. Too strong. But you don''t have many albums, anyway. You won't be gettin nominated for romantic of the year . . maybe pragmatist. I'm bettin that if you were to spend an afternoon at my house, you'd have an serious appreciation of music on vinyl. If you could be open minded, that is. Just in case, I got somethin for that.

[Feanor]

.... Your close strikes me as odd. Good for you for saying it but sounds kind of brain dead to me (regards analog). Why would you derive less serious musical appreciation from what's in those grooves any less than what's it those bits? ....

I gave my three reasons for preferring digital, (not specifically CD), earlier in this thread. Go back and read: the reasons didn't have to do with sound quality, not even with clicks & pops.

For years my music collection was very small, and it still is relatively. My object today is today is to own some version of all the most notable classical works -- this will take my collection above 1000 CDs (or equivalent). Also, I enjoy contemporary classical composers and works. The fact is that the selection I need is simply not available on LP.

Other than that, my earliest hi-fi experience was with vinyl -- I go back a dozen years before CD was even introduced. The rituals of LP handling have no residual charm for me whatsoever.

[jrhymeammo]

I totally respect Feanor's opinion, You know my system isnt top-notch, but damn I wish you hear what I hear.

If you ever come down for Kentucky Derby, you are always welcomed to come by my place. We'll spin some records, as well as shinny discs. I'll promise not to play anything with sythesized bass.

JRA

JRA

[Mr Peabody]

Everyone convene here tomorrow night at midnight to perform an exorcism on Feanor Maybe we'll include Bassite too, some one not old enough to legally buy alcohol who already has Mac and listens to Sinatra......

Bernd, do you ever check your email?

[Bernd]

Everyone convene here tomorrow night at midnight to perform an exorcism on Feanor Maybe we'll include Bassite too, some one not old enough to legally buy alcohol who already has Mac and listens to Sinatra......

Bernd, do you ever check your email?

Yes! Why?

[basite]

Maybe we'll include Basite too, some one not old enough to legally buy alcohol who already has Mac and listens to Sinatra......

hey, I can legally buy & drink alcohol here in Belgium, law says you have to be at least 16 years old...

but I don't drink too much alcohol, wine on family parties and sometimes with dinner, maybe a little martini, or fiero on occasions...

who already has Mac and listens to Sinatra......

wait till I get new speakers

[Feanor]

Everyone convene here tomorrow night at midnight to perform an exorcism on Feanor Maybe we'll include Bassite too, some one not old enough to legally buy alcohol who already has Mac and listens to Sinatra......

Bernd, do you ever check your email?

I'm still here!!!

[Mr Peabody]

Yes! Why?

I sent you an email through AR. I was curious about your signature and wondered if you have ever heard The Legend of Crazy Horse by JD Blackfoot. It's a cool 18 minute song. In one of the lines he says "there's no chance of us removing you, but wait til the day you get Sioux'd". If you haven't you might find it interesting.

I hope you plan to audition Dynaudio when looking for new speakers.

[Bernd]

....., but your e-mail never showed up. I will seek that song out. Thank you for the heads up.

Have a great weekend

[jrhymeammo]

Recently, I checked my cartridge with a different protractor, and found out that it needed to be adjusted quite a bit. I never screw down carts all the way, cuz It always moves with a final twist. I like to tighten just enough so that I can always readjust a cart just a smidget when attached. I guess it had moved after playng over hundreds of records, or just a different design of protractor.

I'm getting more Stereo separation with precision.

Note to self - Check the cart alignmnet at least once a month.

Hey Feanor, you should really hear it now. Com'on down and I'll make you rethink about vinyl. LOL.

Regards,

[Feanor]

...

Hey Feanor, you should really hear it now. Com'on down and I'll make you rethink about vinyl. LOL.

Regards,

JRA,

I have little doubt your system sounds great. I'd love to hear it sometime. But I think you're kind of missing the point about why I haven't got much use for vinyl.

[JohnMichael]

Recently, I checked my cartridge with a different protractor, and found out that it needed to be adjusted quite a bit. I never screw down carts all the way, cuz It always moves with a final twist. I like to tighten just enough so that I can always readjust a cart just a smidget when attached. I guess it had moved after playng over hundreds of records, or just a different design of protractor.

I'm getting more Stereo separation with precision.

Note to self - Check the cart alignmnet at least once a month.

Hey Feanor, you should really hear it now. Com'on down and I'll make you rethink about vinyl. LOL.

Regards,

JRA which protractor did you use? Curious minds want to know. The mounting hardware that came with the Benz was the first that would slide when tightened down. If you use a standard screw and nut and have the screw head below the cart and the nut on top of the headshell I have found it easier to tighten. Once tightened I have never had a cartridge change position. I usually find that I did not sight the protractor properly the first time.