Islam: Our Partners in Peace...

[GMichael]

Nah, Mr P said that all 4 were given the same ability to recall events and conversations from many years earlier with total accuracy. Every version has it the same way, contradicting each other. If all 4 gospels were written by men with absolute abilities to recall events from many years earlier, they would all have remembered the same thing. But none of them were even there in the cited quotes so it's all here say from the start which is closer to what you pointed out.

Bottom line is the Bible is the Word of Man telling a story of what man thinks god may have said, or wants him/her to have said. There is no proof otherwise and never will be.

You may be right about that last part. IMO you are, but only time knows for sure.

[Sir Terrence the Terrible]

I do. I don't condemn people for what they are, only for their malevalent behaviors or attitudes of which JM shows none.

Whatever full or partial support I get I'm glad of, but my own opinions are well researched and I don't rely on popular approval to adhere to them. I had a Protestant Christian upbringing and am well read, for a lay person, on Christian theology and history; I don't need instruction in that regard.

On the subject of the Bible, this book is a compilation developed, (in its writen form), over a thousand year in diverse languages. And to read a English version, say the KJV, word by word as literal truth is absurd. Another book I read not long ago on this subject is ...

Brad J. Ehrman: Misquoting Jesus: The Story behind Who Changed the Bible and Why

... Amazon.com

BTW, Ehrman definitely consders himself a Christian. He was once a Fundamentalist, is now I suppose, a liberal Christian.

I have this book, and I think it should be a must read for every Christian. I have probably read this book about five times since I bought it. One of the things I learned from this book is that neither God nor Jesus had any comment on gays and lesbians. Neither mention the word, or alluded to those relationships in a negative way AT ALL. I also learned that the King James version of the Bible comes from the most inaccurate transcriptions of holy scrolls, and that it should NOT be used to develop church policy or opinions(which throws out the anti gay slant of their arguments). I learned that most commonly used scriptures to condemn gays and lesbians are nothing more than the laws that were supposed to govern Jewish people OF THAT TIME. They are not for non Jew's, or for people living some two thousand years later like they are being used by some. Many scriptures developed earlier were changed to reflect the words of their living contemporaries to avoid contradiction when challenged.

One of the biggest lessons I learned from the book was both the old and new testament requires us to love one another, and the love covereth all sins.(or allows us to forgive readily and easily). Beyond loving one another, everything else is pretty much no mans land.

Using the King James version of the Bible as a tool of judgement is very perilous - and using it the way modern Christians do is divisive, damaging, and just plain wrong on so many levels.

[Mr Peabody]

Are you suggesting that God does care what religion you practice? That he doesn't love all people equally?

Yes, God loves all people equally. And, yes, He cares what religion you practice. God loves all but hates sin, disobedience to His word. As no one here seems to believe in God I'm sure it's hard for you to understand. As it's hard for me to understand how you all who claim not to believe seem to have your own idea of God and what He wants.

[JohnMichael]

Yes, God loves all people equally. And, yes, He cares what religion you practice. God loves all but hates sin, disobedience to His word. As no one here seems to believe in God I'm sure it's hard for you to understand. As it's hard for me to understand how you all who claim not to believe seem to have your own idea of God and what He wants.

Once again this is only based on your church, your bible and your thoughts. You do not have all knowledge and while you think you are correct I think you are wrong. My God is not petty and cares not what religion is practiced. He knows what is in my heart. He does not have any of the human failures that the Judeo/Christian model saddles him with by the book written by men. You think you are correct and the Westboro Baptist Church thinks they are correct. Who is really correct?

[Mr Peabody]

Hyfi;

Mark=9 When Jesus rose early on the first day of the week, he appeared first to Mary Magdalene, out of whom he had driven seven demons. 10 She went and told those who had been with him and who were mourning and weeping. 11 When they heard that Jesus was alive and that she had seen him, they did not believe

Matt: 8 So the women hurried away from the tomb, afraid yet filled with joy, and ran to tell his disciples. 9 Suddenly Jesus met them. “Greetings,” he said. They came to him, clasped his feet and worshiped him. 10 Then Jesus said to them, “Do not be afraid. Go and tell my brothers to go to Galilee; there they will see me.”

In Matthew verse one we see "the women" included Mary Magdalene. There's no contradiction, after they met Jesus in both accounts they went and told others. As I stated earlier, those like you choose to distort in an attempt to make something that's not there. If you don't believe that's on you but to slander......

The Bible is in perfect harmony if one put the effort to study it opposed to looking for ways to distort it. There's no way the Bible could have been written by ordinary men, there are to many prophesy's fulfilled and historical support. You should read the Jewish historian Josephus sometime.

There are certainly books of the Bible that are not to be taken literally as they were written in apocolyptical language, most noteable the book of Daniel and Revelations. Much of it though is literal by command and example.

[ForeverAutumn]

Yes, God loves all people equally. And, yes, He cares what religion you practice. God loves all but hates sin, disobedience to His word. As no one here seems to believe in God I'm sure it's hard for you to understand. As it's hard for me to understand how you all who claim not to believe seem to have your own idea of God and what He wants.

I can't speak for everyone here, but I can tell you my own thoughts. I have no idea of God or what he would want. I do, however, have a curiosity of what people who do believe in God think. I enjoy talking to people about their beliefs and I try hard not to judge (although I admit that is sometimes difficult). And, yes, you are correct that I find it hard to understand. I think that's what makes me so curious and that is why I ask questions. I am not questioning your statements to challenge you. I truly wanted to know what you thought.

[Mr Peabody]

Thanks FA for clarifying for me. I should have known if any one here would respect another's belief it would be you.

[JohnMichael]

Respect should be mutual. If you would like your beliefs respected please respect those who share different beliefs.

[ForeverAutumn]

Thanks FA for clarifying for me. I should have known if any one here would respect another's belief it would be you.

I try very hard to be a tolerant person. I think that it's an important trait for everyone. If there was more tolerance in the world, there would be a lot less senseless death and less problems in general. I also learned a long time ago that arguing with someone over religion is futile. You have your beliefs and I have mine. It is something that we will never see eye-to-eye on, so what's the sense arguing over it. I'll never change anyone's beliefs just as they will never change mine. So instead of arguing, I accept our differences and instead spend my time trying to understand what makes people of faith feel so strongly about something that is so intangible.

[Feanor]

I try very hard to be a tolerant person. I think that it's an important trait for everyone. If there was more tolerance in the world, there would be a lot less senseless death and less problems in general. I also learned a long time ago that arguing with someone over religion is futile. You have your beliefs and I have mine. It is something that we will never see eye-to-eye on, so what's the sense arguing over it. I'll never change anyone's beliefs just as they will never change mine. So instead of arguing, I accept our differences and instead spend my time trying to understand what makes people of faith feel so strongly about something that is so intangible.

Wise people used to say, "Never argue religion or politics".

Good advice still if you goal is to maintain civility, but it's hard to resist when you know dogmatic religion and right-wing politics are destroying the world.

[JohnMichael]

Good advice still if you goal is to maintain civility, but it's hard to resist when you know dogmatic religion and right-wing politics are destroying the world.

Yes and being used to deny others their rights.

[markw]

Wise people used to say, "Never argue religion or politics".

Good advice still if you goal is to maintain civility, but it's hard to resist when you know dogmatic religion and right-wing politics are destroying the world.

Some might say that left wing politics are bankrupting europe even as we speak. not to mention the dictatorships in the middle east, africa, NK, etc, etc...

[Mr Peabody]

JM, interesting that if this country denies you so many rights that you are still here.

FA, the key word you mentioned in regard to religion is "faith". I thought this was a fair definition in the context of the discussion.

faith: The term is employed in a religious or theological context to refer to a confident belief in a transcendent reality, a religious teacher, a set of teachings or a Supreme Being. However, some atheists and agnostics consider the term to be a euphemism for religious superstition.

Since faith implies a trusting reliance upon future events or outcomes, it is often taken by some people as inevitably synonymous with a belief "not resting on logical proof or material evidence."

[JohnMichael]

JM, interesting that if this country denies you so many rights that you are still here.

I am busy fighting for them. Oh and so you know this has always been my country and I will work from within to throw off the shackles imposed by religious bigots.

[Mr Peabody]

I am busy fighting for them. Oh and so you know this has always been my country and I will work from within to throw off the shackles imposed by religious bigots.

Well, go on with your bad self then

[Feanor]

...

faith: The term is employed in a religious or theological context to refer to a confident belief in a transcendent reality, a religious teacher, a set of teachings or a Supreme Being. However, some atheists and agnostics consider the term to be a euphemism for religious superstition.

Since faith implies a trusting reliance upon future events or outcomes, it is often taken by some people as inevitably synonymous with a belief "not resting on logical proof or material evidence."

I subscribe to these definitions!

[Feanor]

Some might say that left wing politics are bankrupting europe even as we speak. not to mention the dictatorships in the middle east, africa, NK, etc, etc...

The Left-Right discussion is off this particular off-topic discussion. So sufficient to say that some "left wing" countries have gotten into trouble due to continual fiscal deficits, (Greece, Portugal, Ireland, Spain), some have not, e.g. Scandinavian countries, Netherlands, Denmark, Iceland, etc.. The usual reason for fiscal deficits is the failure to tax the middle and, especially, the wealthy classes -- of course, that's true too for the USA which isn't left-wing by any stretch of the imagination.

[markw]

The Left-Right discussion is off this particular off-topic discussion.

Perhaps, but if YOU had not brought it up here,:

Wise people used to say, "Never argue religion or politics".

Good advice still if you goal is to maintain civility, but it's hard to resist when you know dogmatic religion and right-wing politics are destroying the world.

...I would not have had cause to comment, would I? I know, I know... you just want to be able to throw out your little digs and quietly retreat into the distance, eh? A bit cowardly, isn't that? But, considering the source, it's not really surprising. It looks like that inflated ego of yours just won't let you drop an issue, shut up and move on, will it? So much for your show of wisdom, eh?

So sufficient to say that some "left wing" countries have gotten into trouble due to continual fiscal deficits, (Greece, Portugal, Ireland, Spain), some have not anywhere nearly the same extent, e.g. Scandinavian countries, Netherlands, Denmark, France, etc.. The usual reason for fiscal deficits is the failure to tax the middle and, especially, the wealthy classes -- of course, that's true too for the USA which isn't left-wing by any stretch of the imagination.

So, what's your point? Too many entitlements and not enough workers to pay for it. Remember, not all countries have a benevelont big brother directly to their south who they can hide behind. They are creaking under their own weight and can't go on forever.

And, to being this discussion back to it's original intent, you'll notice that the muslim incursion into the fabric of the european nations seems to be centered in the left-leaning nations. Looking at it that way, the more right they are, the less the threat seems to be, at least for now.

So, it looks like the right wing may actually be the salvation of the "free" world and, for the time being, that includes canada if they play ball.

[Sir Terrence the Terrible]

So, it looks like the right wing may actually be the salvation of the "free" world and, for the time being, that includes canada if they play ball.

I guess if you look at the world through very tinted glasses, this would be true. I can't see clearly through those things, so I have no use for them.

[Feanor]

...
And, to being this discussion back to it's original intent, you'll notice that the muslim incursion into the fabric of the european nations seems to be centered in the left-leaning nations. Looking at it that way, the more right they are, the less the threat seems to be, at least for now.
...

I guess your concerns about Muslims in the the US are unfounded then?

...
So, it looks like the right wing may actually be the salvation of the "free" world and, for the time being, that includes canada if they play ball.

This is a non sequitur. Conditions in western nations, especially but not exclusively the USA, have become more and more right-wing since the late '70s at least. Here by "right-wing" I mean more perfectly capitalist, viz.

• More competitive, domestic and international
• More legally & financially consistent internationally, i.e. "free trade" treaties
• More innovative in terms of products & services
• More innovative in terms of production, logistic, and marketing technologies
• Less commercial regulation
• Less powerful labor unions
• Lower, (much lower), taxes on the wealthy.

Yet despite this "progress", the incomes of the poor and most of the middle class have declined. Their standards of living has been sustained only by (1) working spouses and working longer hours, (2) borrowing, and (3) cheap goods manufactured off-shore. Meanwhile the incomes of top 1% have increased exponentially.

During this 35 year interval, it's ironic but ultimately not surprising that deficits have increased most rapidly in the during conservative Republic administrations.

If you ideas were't so dominated by ideology, mythology, and religious bigotry, you might recognize these facts.

[markw]

I love how you flit back and forth between "right-wing" in a Chriatian based cou ntry and then, wbhen it suits your purposes, switch to an economic slant. I guess you can't stick to the subject at hand, can you?

It's funny that you try to jump all over me when you think I changes the subject, though.

In any case, I'm pretty sure we'll pull out of our problems but it may mean a bit of "tough love, which this administration doesn't seem to want to do. We're letting in too many freeloaders, mostly from the south who, after lowering the working wage, then take the entry-level jobs, live liks paupers off the map and depend on social services, send most of the money back to their home countries, mostly without paying taxes, and eventually go back there. We're slowly being bled to death.

So, what's our "leftist" president doing about all this? Ignoring it and, even more strange, is refusing to enforce existing laws against this.

Now, I would like to see the employeers on the hook and I do believe that in time we will but first, we must seal our borders. And, we should go after the financial sector for their abuses over the past which, BTW started under Clinton, a liberal if there ever was one.

And, as for offshoring our workforce, I believe we should penalize/tax the bejeezus out of the American companies that do this instead of giving them tax breaks, but lobbysts money speaks louder than their constituents words.

As for the "religious" threat that seems to worry you, at least on some of your posts here, don't fret it. The constitution and the populace won't allow that to happen. But, since I see numbers of "other" beliefs slowly exerting political influence here, (Dearborn) I wouldn't be surprised if we don't see some refinement to keep it that way. England, France, Germany are already in the throes of these issues and if we don't tighten it up, so will we. In fact, I just read today where a muslim group wants their religious symbol incorporatd into Russia's national crest. This should be interesting.

In a way you're lucky. Due to your countries benign impact on the world, both economically and politically, you're relatively immune to this kind of stuff.

[Hyfi]

Thanks FA for clarifying for me. I should have known if any one here would respect another's belief it would be you.

See that is not very fair. I may question peoples beliefs, but I will never tell you what to believe, or tell anyone that they are wrong because they don't believe what I do. However, the stance of Christianity and it's followers is to tell everyone that their way is the only way and the right way. If you don't believe it then God will strike you down, leave you behind, send you to hell or whatever other scare tactic they choose to use to convert you. I take offense to that.

As I said earlier, my belief is that ALL religions are just different pathways to the same God. It should not matter what your belief is, as long as that is what gets you through the day and you treat people with love and respect.

Christianity is one of the mast recent religions to be made up. What about all the people of other beliefs from thousands of years before Christianity was invented? Are they all in Hell? How is it that the last religion to be thought up is the only right one?

I am not an Atheist but I also do not agree that you need to follow rituals, special rules, and exclusiveness to be a good and spiritual person. If one needs organized religion to get them through the day, great go for it. I have friends of all faiths/religions and some with none. I really don't care. But when people want to start quoting the Bible and forcing their beliefs on others and myself, it gets me worked up. I will always question things in my path. I have been to almost every christian denomination service, as well as Jewish, Quaker and more.

I also don't have a lot of respect for any Religion that kills people in the name of God. Christianity has done it many times as well as other religions.

I have read enough books on Religion as well as the better part of the Bible. The only way that I can get anything out of it is through the books written by Emanual Swedenbog as cited earlier. There is too much proff that the Bible was constructed, translated and made to say what it says for me to buy into it.

Do I believe Jesus was a man who lived? Yes I do. But he also did not say or teach anything different than Buddha said and taught many many years before him. Read a book called Jesus - Buddha. Many people have taught the way of Love and Harmony.

[bobsticks]

Pe
So, what's your point? Too many entitlements and not enough workers to pay for it...

Too bad y'all didn't think of that when you invented social security...are those entitlements part of the "tough love"?


Ooops, I went off topic in the Off Topic...

[Feanor]

...

In any case, I'm pretty sure we'll pull out of our problems but it may mean a bit of "tough love, which this administration doesn't seem to want to do. We're letting in too many freeloaders, mostly from the south who, after lowering the working wage, then take the entry-level jobs, live liks paupers off the map and depend on social services, send most of the money back to their home countries, mostly without paying taxes, and eventually go back there. We're slowly being bled to death.

...

I agree with you here in a limited degree. Illegal immigrants are mostly "from the south"; they do take entry-level jobs, and they do tend to lower the working wage. On the other hand they are willing to work so they aren't exactly freeloaders. They tend lean on social services, but then so do many bona fide American Wal-Mart employess, so I hear, who can't exist on what Uncle Sam (Walton) pays them.

No surprise that the laws aren't enforced against illegal immigration. Employers love them: cheapest wages, no benefits, and they can't complain about lousy working conditions. Illegal immigration is only a sign of the vigorous operation of the free market and it isn't going to stop while business owns the politicians.

But look on the bright side: those "from the south" are almost all Christians and one of the reasons that there is no significant internal threat to the US from Muslims.

[Mr Peabody]

Hyfi, it's interesting that you believe whole hearted in the books you recommend while totally dismissing the Bible. If one believes God created the world then the bible is the first religion.

I support SSA in it's original intension which was to help seniors. SSA went astray when it expanded who would qualify. I wonder how much SSA pays out a year to fight claims of disability.

I'll jump into the fire by saying the entitlement that needs to go is the Earned Income Credit. Some people get a larger refund than their annual salary and an enormous amount of money and resources are put into policing the program from fraud. It would be interesting to see how much this program costs overall with payouts and management. Seems it would have to go a long way in helping with the budget.