Page 1 of 4 1 2 3 ... LastLast
Results 1 to 25 of 78
  1. #1
    meteo man
    Join Date
    Feb 2005
    Location
    Fort Wayne, IN
    Posts
    35

    Highest frequency that cannot be "localized" by the ear?

    Sorry to ask a basic question, but what is the generally accepted highest frequency that humans can hear and still appear to be "omni-directional" to humans?
    meteo man

    Adcom GFA-5400 amp
    Adcom GTP-602 tuner/preamp
    Toshiba SD2700 DVD player
    Rotel RCD-1070 CD player
    Paradigm Signature S2 speakers
    Velodyne SPL-800R subwoofer
    Adcom ACE-615 AC line conditioner
    Straightwire Stage speaker wires
    Straightwire Chorus cable interconnects

  2. #2
    Loving This kexodusc's Avatar
    Join Date
    Nov 2003
    Location
    Department of Heuristics and Research on Material Applications
    Posts
    9,025
    This is open to much debate. I've read anywhere from 70 to 120 Hz. My own experience is that it is closer to 110 Hz. But there's a catch. Often, the localizing cues we perceive when a subwoofer or speaker plays these notes isn't the frequency itself, but the harmonics, vibrations, interactions with room, etc. Your senses are pretty clever, and will hear the impacts of the released energy near the subwoofer, and hence direct your attention to that area. Play a 20 Hz tone sometime through your sub (or lowest it's safely capable of)...often your senses will direct you to the source...not just hearing, but everything.

    With an A/V receiver, or subwoofer plate amp, look for crossovers or LFE cutoffs with steep acoustic slopes. 24 dB/octave. Many are still 12 dB/octave. No good IMO. Even 24 dB/octave still plays a lot of information above the so called "cutoff" frequency. Sometimes we're hearing these higher frequencies and mistaking it as 90 Hz being directional.

    Often overlooked is the simple factor of the size of the room, your postion in the room and your position relative the subwoofer. If you're sitting near a mode or node, response will be affected quite a bit when moving even a few inches. The thing about non-directional frequencies is the size of the wavelengths. 90 Hz is 12 feet. If you're +/- 6 feet of axis, you can expect some major discrepencies between what you hear in your left and right ears. 80 Hz is almost 14 feet. 70 Hz almost 16 feet.

    I guess my point here after all this rambling is that what's non-directional in your setup, might be easily localized in another room. Experiment.

  3. #3
    Forum Regular
    Join Date
    Dec 2001
    Posts
    56

    Talking Subwoofers are sonically invisible if they have minimal output above 80Hz.

    Assuming almost all the bass above 80Hz. is coming from the satellite speakers, and the subwoofer is located in the vicinity of one or both main speakers (not alone in a far corner someone):

    I recommend output at 160Hz. down at least 24dB versus bass output under 80Hz, (I personally prefer even less subwoofer output above 80Hz.)

    We hear the location of the subwoofer from the output in the 80-160Hz. octave (which can be significant if low-pass filters are not at least 24dB/octave slope, with a turnover frequency no higher than 80Hz.).

    With all other speakers turned off you can feel the sound pressure from a subwoofer and at least identify the side of the room it's located on AT ANY FREQUENCY.

    You can feel a subwoofer behind you.

    That's why for the best integration with the main speakers, subwoofers should be located near one main speaker, or between two main speakers.

  4. #4
    RGA
    RGA is offline
    Forum Regular
    Join Date
    Nov 2003
    Posts
    5,539
    Perhaps this is the explanation from Richard Greene. The only time a subwoofer was remotely convincing - even ones set up by professionals was when the sub was directly between the two speakers (which then makes it totally impractical. The toher was when one sub was behind each speaker.

    Never ever ever have I been convinced by a system using one subwoofer not in the dead center between the two main speakers -- one sub on the left is heard from the left ALWAYS. Still I like them when something explodes in a movie.

  5. #5
    meteo man
    Join Date
    Feb 2005
    Location
    Fort Wayne, IN
    Posts
    35

    best have two subwoofers, one near each monitor.

    So am I corrrect to assume then for the best two channel system in which I cannot place the subwoofer inbetween the speakers (becasue of a tv), it is best two have a pair of subwoofers in which they are located near each monitor speaker. In other words I should not have a singe subwoofer in the corner of a room?
    meteo man

    Adcom GFA-5400 amp
    Adcom GTP-602 tuner/preamp
    Toshiba SD2700 DVD player
    Rotel RCD-1070 CD player
    Paradigm Signature S2 speakers
    Velodyne SPL-800R subwoofer
    Adcom ACE-615 AC line conditioner
    Straightwire Stage speaker wires
    Straightwire Chorus cable interconnects

  6. #6
    Loving This kexodusc's Avatar
    Join Date
    Nov 2003
    Location
    Department of Heuristics and Research on Material Applications
    Posts
    9,025
    Corner loading a subwoofer can introduce some uneven response patterns throughout the room. I guess, depending on your room, adding a second sub in the opposite corner might compensate for that.
    I'm convinced there's at least some benefit to running two subwoofers, even if there is no "stereo" effect. Problem is on a pounding bass drum, you might sense two separate sources of the drum, 1 in each corner, which isn't what a drum is doing. Your sense of "feel" for the bass won't create a virtual image in the same manner your ears interpret sound.

    Don't discount room size and your proximity to the sub either. In my smaller studio, my sub easily gives itself away, and like RGA said, there were some challenges trying to add more bass into my 2-channel system. For some music, particularly acoustic music, it worked rather well. For rock, it didn't work as well. I ended up abandonning it for space saving reasons. My towers play down to 28 Hz or so anyway and though my sub is a bit more "musical", it took up too much space.

    In my 20 X 24 room, I have the sub on the inside of one of my front main speakers. I listen to 2 channel stereo a lot in this room too. I'm about 11.5 feet from the subwoofer, near the center of my room. I honestly can't determine it's location until the walls in the surrounding area rattle and give it away. As I move closer, I can feel the energy it gives off.

    I think for most, 1 subwoofer is fine, if you can do 2 subs, go for it. But just accept that the extra subwoofer's cost is only going to improve things a bit. For the cost of 2 subs in a stereo system, especially with space requirements, you might be better off to evaluate doing a speaker upgrade?

  7. #7
    M.P.S.E /AES/SMPTE member Sir Terrence the Terrible's Avatar
    Join Date
    Jul 2002
    Posts
    6,826
    Quote Originally Posted by edlchiang62
    So am I corrrect to assume then for the best two channel system in which I cannot place the subwoofer inbetween the speakers (becasue of a tv), it is best two have a pair of subwoofers in which they are located near each monitor speaker. In other words I should not have a singe subwoofer in the corner of a room?
    Tom Nousaine has measured many subwoofers in many positions including multiple subs(2,3,4,5 close to mains) and according to his measurements a single sub in a corner still measures the best. A subwoofer sitting between two main speakers is not likely to excite any of the rooms modes efficiently which will cause some some suckouts in the frequency response at the listening position. According to his testing, a subwoofer SHOULD excite all of the rooms modals to measure and sound good. While placing a sub between the mains may assist in better integrations with the mains, it will likely cause the frequency response of the sub to be uneven.
    Sir Terrence

    Titan Reference 3D 1080p projector
    200" SI Black Diamond II screen
    Oppo BDP-103D
    Datastat RS20I audio/video processor 12.4 audio setup
    9 Onkyo M-5099 power amp
    9 Onkyo M-510 power amp
    9 Onkyo M-508 power amp
    6 custom CAL amps for subs
    3 custom 3 way horn DSP hybrid monitors
    18 custom 3 way horn DSP hybrid surround/ceiling speakers
    2 custom 15" sealed FFEC servo subs
    4 custom 15" H-PAS FFEC servo subs
    THX Style Baffle wall

  8. #8
    Loving This kexodusc's Avatar
    Join Date
    Nov 2003
    Location
    Department of Heuristics and Research on Material Applications
    Posts
    9,025

    WOW! Very interesting.

    Quote Originally Posted by Sir Terrence the Terrible
    Tom Nousaine has measured many subwoofers in many positions including multiple subs(2,3,4,5 close to mains) and according to his measurements a single sub in a corner still measures the best. A subwoofer sitting between two main speakers is not likely to excite any of the rooms modes efficiently which will cause some some suckouts in the frequency response at the listening position. According to his testing, a subwoofer SHOULD excite all of the rooms modals to measure and sound good. While placing a sub between the mains may assist in better integrations with the mains, it will likely cause the frequency response of the sub to be uneven.
    While it completly contradicts some reading I've done, this sounds like more great info from Mr. Nousaine...would you have any links to a discussion or anything? I'd be curious to read.

    I'd like to know why exciting all the room modes is critical, and why it's considered more important than integrating with the mains, in particular. Is this just a taste preference, or is there something too it.

    And is corner placement always preferable in every room no matter the size/shape?

  9. #9
    Forum Regular
    Join Date
    Jun 2004
    Posts
    133

    Subwoofer Location Discernable??

    Quote Originally Posted by RGA
    Perhaps this is the explanation from Richard Greene. The only time a subwoofer was remotely convincing - even ones set up by professionals was when the sub was directly between the two speakers (which then makes it totally impractical. The toher was when one sub was behind each speaker.

    Never ever ever have I been convinced by a system using one subwoofer not in the dead center between the two main speakers -- one sub on the left is heard from the left ALWAYS. Still I like them when something explodes in a movie.
    Sorry RGA, I strongly disagree with you. I use a 12 inch M&K powered subwoofer located on the far right front side of my room beside a sofa, and to date not one person has ever even known that a powered subwoofer was being used (in addition to the the two front 12 inch 4 way towers) that I use. The subwoofer is desquised as a lamp stand and draws no attention to itself. I suggest that mostly the eyes and mind are telling you where the subwoofer is. Frequencies of 80HZ or less are not locatable by hearing.

  10. #10
    3db
    3db is offline
    Forum Regular
    Join Date
    Jan 1970
    Posts
    527

    good question

    Quote Originally Posted by kexodusc
    While it completly contradicts some reading I've done, this sounds like more great info from Mr. Nousaine...would you have any links to a discussion or anything? I'd be curious to read.

    I'd like to know why exciting all the room modes is critical, and why it's considered more important than integrating with the mains, in particular. Is this just a taste preference, or is there something too it.

    And is corner placement always preferable in every room no matter the size/shape?
    Although my sub is located in a corner, its at the opposite end of the room to where my mains are located. That postion was found by putting the sub where my seating psotion was and crawlign around like an angry dog until I found the spot where the bass seemed the loudest. This room is 12'x16' with a 7ft drop ceiling, and burber carpet.

    Now in my other house, the best bass response I achieved was smack dam in the middle of the short wall againsgt the wall. My speakers flanked the sub on either side. This room (family room) was open to the kitchen however. I can't help but think that room shape and size plays a huge roll into where the sub should go.

  11. #11
    RGA
    RGA is offline
    Forum Regular
    Join Date
    Nov 2003
    Posts
    5,539
    Quote Originally Posted by ruadmaa
    Sorry RGA, I strongly disagree with you. I use a 12 inch M&K powered subwoofer located on the far right front side of my room beside a sofa, and to date not one person has ever even known that a powered subwoofer was being used (in addition to the the two front 12 inch 4 way towers) that I use. The subwoofer is desquised as a lamp stand and draws no attention to itself. I suggest that mostly the eyes and mind are telling you where the subwoofer is. Frequencies of 80HZ or less are not locatable by hearing.
    Run a test tone disc - have your eyes closed let someone set up the romk and run a 30hz tone through -- You will know where the sub is.

    Music can take a fair bit longer because few music has any real bass - systems with a sub don;t integrate properly and sooner or later the ear drifts to where the sub is. In a short term listening test maybe not, but then the $20.00 computer speakers on the table with the sub on the floor fooled me for a few minutes too in that gee it sounded klike it was coming from the speaker -- and this is way way about 80hz.

    And it's funny you mention M&K because THAT was the set-up with the sub in the middle that I was referring to. The dealer, who's father invented the sand filling speaker for Wharfedale, had Lucas as a client. The problem was that the sub in the center created a weight always int he center and the dealer rarely wanted to play anything other than a drum solo -- this music sounded great but heavier voices and a lack of left to right depth. Ultimately it was a bit of a boom and sizzle experience. Other sub set-ups in the corners namely with B&W N801 sounded dead - one note bass. If I have a complaint, aside from not meshing with the speakers is the kind of bass -- I either get fake added ambiance to everything (which i admit can sound pleasing enough) or I get an obvious tranfer.to one side of the room or a heavier weighted balance to one side of the room -- someone mentioned drums in the left corner if the sub is in the left corner -- umm that ain;t great when the drums are supposed to be on the other side.

    My main experience with subs was with a Boston Acoustics SW 10 long throw powered sub. I can forgive many problems but it's problem is that it could not outdo the Wharfedale's bass depth. It could be run passive or with its power and powered it "alleviated" the Wharfedales from the task of providing the bass - The sound was terrible in this mode - boom and sizzle -- I could hear more "air" in the Wharfedale more midrange and treble but umm that's about it along with the subwoofer.

    Good speakers don't need to be alleviated from their job -letting the receiver run everything sounded much better but then I ran into the problem that the sub didn't add any bass so I basically gave up on the thing.

    Heard many new supposedly better subwoofer designs - but I am not going to BUY one until a dealer can prove to me that they will add musical value to the bottom end rather than one note bass or "slam" which isn't at all music but a throbbing impress your friends "wow that's cool" pyrotechnic. (like I say great for movies) not been convinced for music though I will agree that subs often help out a lot of unnaceptably aneamic speakers.

  12. #12
    It's just a hobby
    Join Date
    Oct 2004
    Location
    London, UK
    Posts
    808
    Quote Originally Posted by RGA
    Run a test tone disc - have your eyes closed let someone set up the romk and run a 30hz tone through -- You will know where the sub is.
    It is a '30Hz test tone! i.e. a single fundamental with no harmonics,it will be primarily audible through the subwoofer! Talk about stating the obvious ! At this point, your J's are several db down or not producing any sound at all, so sure you will locate the sub, try the same test with a music program, the outcome will be very different, if the crossover to the sub is sufficiently low.

  13. #13
    meteo man
    Join Date
    Feb 2005
    Location
    Fort Wayne, IN
    Posts
    35

    more confused then ever

    I appreciate all the responses, but I am afraid I am now more confused than ever about integrating a sub into a 2-channel system.
    meteo man

    Adcom GFA-5400 amp
    Adcom GTP-602 tuner/preamp
    Toshiba SD2700 DVD player
    Rotel RCD-1070 CD player
    Paradigm Signature S2 speakers
    Velodyne SPL-800R subwoofer
    Adcom ACE-615 AC line conditioner
    Straightwire Stage speaker wires
    Straightwire Chorus cable interconnects

  14. #14
    Music Junkie E-Stat's Avatar
    Join Date
    Dec 2003
    Posts
    5,462
    Quote Originally Posted by Sir Terrence the Terrible
    Tom Nousaine has measured many subwoofers in many positions including multiple subs(2,3,4,5 close to mains) and according to his measurements a single sub in a corner still measures the best.
    Perhaps with all the qualifications RG stated, that would be the case. I suspect the modest 12" powered subs I use in my HT system do not utilize such a steep slope. Even when I set the sub's crossover to 70 hz sourced from the LFE output, I find two blend better than one.

    Returning to the original question, I believe than unless you have largely full range speakers to begin with, buy a serious sub with an unusually steep crossover slope, you would be better off with a pair.

    BTW, TtT - I notice you use a pair of 15 inchers.

    rw

  15. #15
    Forum Regular
    Join Date
    Jun 2004
    Posts
    133

    Sorry RGA

    Quote Originally Posted by RGA
    Run a test tone disc - have your eyes closed let someone set up the romk and run a 30hz tone through -- You will know where the sub is.

    Music can take a fair bit longer because few music has any real bass - systems with a sub don;t integrate properly and sooner or later the ear drifts to where the sub is. In a short term listening test maybe not, but then the $20.00 computer speakers on the table with the sub on the floor fooled me for a few minutes too in that gee it sounded klike it was coming from the speaker -- and this is way way about 80hz.

    And it's funny you mention M&K because THAT was the set-up with the sub in the middle that I was referring to. The dealer, who's father invented the sand filling speaker for Wharfedale, had Lucas as a client. The problem was that the sub in the center created a weight always int he center and the dealer rarely wanted to play anything other than a drum solo -- this music sounded great but heavier voices and a lack of left to right depth. Ultimately it was a bit of a boom and sizzle experience. Other sub set-ups in the corners namely with B&W N801 sounded dead - one note bass. If I have a complaint, aside from not meshing with the speakers is the kind of bass -- I either get fake added ambiance to everything (which i admit can sound pleasing enough) or I get an obvious tranfer.to one side of the room or a heavier weighted balance to one side of the room -- someone mentioned drums in the left corner if the sub is in the left corner -- umm that ain;t great when the drums are supposed to be on the other side.

    My main experience with subs was with a Boston Acoustics SW 10 long throw powered sub. I can forgive many problems but it's problem is that it could not outdo the Wharfedale's bass depth. It could be run passive or with its power and powered it "alleviated" the Wharfedales from the task of providing the bass - The sound was terrible in this mode - boom and sizzle -- I could hear more "air" in the Wharfedale more midrange and treble but umm that's about it along with the subwoofer.

    Good speakers don't need to be alleviated from their job -letting the receiver run everything sounded much better but then I ran into the problem that the sub didn't add any bass so I basically gave up on the thing.

    Heard many new supposedly better subwoofer designs - but I am not going to BUY one until a dealer can prove to me that they will add musical value to the bottom end rather than one note bass or "slam" which isn't at all music but a throbbing impress your friends "wow that's cool" pyrotechnic. (like I say great for movies) not been convinced for music though I will agree that subs often help out a lot of unnaceptably aneamic speakers.
    Sorry again RGA, I don't run test tones on my system other than for system setup, I run both music and movies . No one has ever been able to spot the subwoofer. Quite frankly, you wouldn't be able to locate it either, even if you were listening for it. I have listened to my system quite critically many times, there is no clue that a sub is being used.

  16. #16
    M.P.S.E /AES/SMPTE member Sir Terrence the Terrible's Avatar
    Join Date
    Jul 2002
    Posts
    6,826
    Quote Originally Posted by kexodusc
    While it completly contradicts some reading I've done, this sounds like more great info from Mr. Nousaine...would you have any links to a discussion or anything? I'd be curious to read.
    Tom Nousiane papers are VERY difficult to find on the internet. Most of them are articles in audio magazine, or sound and vision back in the 90's. However as a memeber of AES, I am able to aquire quite a few of his papers through it, and CEDIA and THX use his work on subs to a great degree.

    I'd like to know why exciting all the room modes is critical, and why it's considered more important than integrating with the mains, in particular. Is this just a taste preference, or is there something too it.

    And is corner placement always preferable in every room no matter the size/shape?
    Most experiments with room acoustics and standing waves have been on rectangular rooms only. I think the reason why it is important to locate subs in corners has more to do with maximum volume, low frequency extension, and most even measurements. Also consider that it is easier to cut a room mode(which corners stimulate all boundary related modes evenly) than it is to fill in a node which cannot be done without extreme penalties on amplifier headroom and overall output
    Sir Terrence

    Titan Reference 3D 1080p projector
    200" SI Black Diamond II screen
    Oppo BDP-103D
    Datastat RS20I audio/video processor 12.4 audio setup
    9 Onkyo M-5099 power amp
    9 Onkyo M-510 power amp
    9 Onkyo M-508 power amp
    6 custom CAL amps for subs
    3 custom 3 way horn DSP hybrid monitors
    18 custom 3 way horn DSP hybrid surround/ceiling speakers
    2 custom 15" sealed FFEC servo subs
    4 custom 15" H-PAS FFEC servo subs
    THX Style Baffle wall

  17. #17
    M.P.S.E /AES/SMPTE member Sir Terrence the Terrible's Avatar
    Join Date
    Jul 2002
    Posts
    6,826
    Quote Originally Posted by E-Stat
    Perhaps with all the qualifications RG stated, that would be the case. I suspect the modest 12" powered subs I use in my HT system do not utilize such a steep slope. Even when I set the sub's crossover to 70 hz sourced from the LFE output, I find two blend better than one.
    If you have read the writings of both Richard Greene(who comes here sometimes now) and Tom, according to both of them the ideal crossover point for subwoofer invisibility would be around 60-80hz with a VERY steep 24dbpo crossover. This is the parimeter that Tom Nousiane followed during his measurement of those many rooms.

    Returning to the original question, I believe than unless you have largely full range speakers to begin with, buy a serious sub with an unusually steep crossover slope, you would be better off with a pair.

    BTW, TtT - I notice you use a pair of 15 inchers.

    rw
    If you place full range speakers where the bass response is augmented(closer to the walls) then imaging suffers because of the added and early arrival of nearfield reflections. If you place full range speakers to acheive maximum imaging, it is likely to roll off early, and create peaks and valley in its freqeuncy responses do to late arriving reflections combining with early arriving reflections. That is why subs are so important no matter which kind of speaker you use.

    You are right, I do use a pair of 15". Not for any reason other than to fullfill my audio requirements that the LFE speakers have 6db headroom over the loudest peak within that channel. A single of my subs could easily reach the loudest potential of the LFE channel(115db peak acousticall). Two subs located in each of the front corners on the floor reaches my goal of 6db. I otherwise would have used a single sub in my room if I didn't have these requirements. I require that all speakers in my system be able to handle at least 6db of headroom over the highest peak in that channel. Consequently I use VERY big speakers all of the way around, although I wouldn't consider my surrounds full range as they only go down to 50hz. Considering that there is not always alot of deep bass in the surrounds, that is low enough IMO to run full range. Only in the rarest of occasions have I seen bass at very high levels below 50hz in the surrounds. In the dubbing stage the surrounds are band limited at 80hz anyway, except if its being mixed at Skywalker sound which have surrounds that go down to 50hz or so.
    Sir Terrence

    Titan Reference 3D 1080p projector
    200" SI Black Diamond II screen
    Oppo BDP-103D
    Datastat RS20I audio/video processor 12.4 audio setup
    9 Onkyo M-5099 power amp
    9 Onkyo M-510 power amp
    9 Onkyo M-508 power amp
    6 custom CAL amps for subs
    3 custom 3 way horn DSP hybrid monitors
    18 custom 3 way horn DSP hybrid surround/ceiling speakers
    2 custom 15" sealed FFEC servo subs
    4 custom 15" H-PAS FFEC servo subs
    THX Style Baffle wall

  18. #18
    RGA
    RGA is offline
    Forum Regular
    Join Date
    Nov 2003
    Posts
    5,539
    Quote Originally Posted by theaudiohobby
    It is a '30Hz test tone! i.e. a single fundamental with no harmonics,it will be primarily audible through the subwoofer! Talk about stating the obvious ! At this point, your J's are several db down or not producing any sound at all, so sure you will locate the sub, try the same test with a music program, the outcome will be very different, if the crossover to the sub is sufficiently low.
    Yes I have pedal organ work of the Saint Saens (though musically not my thing) and the subs drift. The fact that you do not get stereo sound from one sub should trigger a bit of a clue but then i'm talking to someone who thinks the 705 is a great speaker -- or even a good one. And if the Quad is satisfactory to you for bass of any sort then this discussion is going to lead nowhere.

  19. #19
    Music Junkie E-Stat's Avatar
    Join Date
    Dec 2003
    Posts
    5,462
    Quote Originally Posted by Sir Terrence the Terrible
    ... the ideal crossover point for subwoofer invisibility would be around 60-80hz with a VERY steep 24dbpo crossover. This is the parimeter that Tom Nousiane followed during his measurement of those many rooms.
    I think we're on the same page. Unfortunately, I would venture to say most reasonably priced subs intended for HT use do not have that steep a slope.

    Quote Originally Posted by Sir Terrence the Terrible
    You are right, I do use a pair of 15". Not for any reason other than to fullfill my audio requirements that the LFE speakers have 6db headroom over the loudest peak within that channel.


    That's also why Harry Pearson uses five in his Magneplanar based HT system! The waves crashing in the movie Blue Crush were quite convincing.

    rw

  20. #20
    It's just a hobby
    Join Date
    Oct 2004
    Location
    London, UK
    Posts
    808

    Sigh, some hot air

    Quote Originally Posted by RGA
    Yes I have pedal organ work of the Saint Saens (though musically not my thing) and the subs drift.
    Hello...30Hz test tone and Saint Saen pedal organ music, see the difference...

    The fact that you do not get stereo sound from one sub should trigger a bit of a clue but then i'm talking to someone who thinks the 705 is a great speaker -- or even a good one.
    What is the title of the thread? And the 705 is a good speaker irrespective of your preferences.

    And if the Quad is satisfactory to you for bass of any sort then this discussion is going to lead nowhere.
    , Do you know the -6dB point of the Quad ESL and next time try reading system details more closely before you comment.

  21. #21
    RGA
    RGA is offline
    Forum Regular
    Join Date
    Nov 2003
    Posts
    5,539
    Quote Originally Posted by theaudiohobby
    Hello...30Hz test tone and Saint Saen pedal organ music, see the difference...



    What is the title of the thread? And the 705 is a good speaker irrespective of your preferences.


    , Do you know the -6dB point of the Quad ESL and next time try reading system details more closely before you comment.
    Actually I know both points and neither is pretty - the Quads do not measure well - they have no credible bass and no bass dynamics whatsoever they're a midrange speaker (despite your preferences for rolled off bandwidth limited speakers).

  22. #22
    It's just a hobby
    Join Date
    Oct 2004
    Location
    London, UK
    Posts
    808
    [
    Quote Originally Posted by RGA
    Actually I know both points and neither is pretty -).measure well - they have no credible bass and no bass dynamics
    , what is the -6dB point of the Quad ESL? As for the B&W 705, The true -6dB point is published on the B&W site, and there are some comprehensive measurements available from other sources, if do not you have any information that contradicts those, your comments about its -6dB point are pointless.

    whatsoever they're a midrange speaker (despite your preferences for rolled off bandwidth limited speakers).
    as usual clutching at straws again.. and taking leave of the thread topic in the process

  23. #23
    meteo man
    Join Date
    Feb 2005
    Location
    Fort Wayne, IN
    Posts
    35

    I thought i asked a simple question

    Jeez..I thought I asked a simple question about localization of sounds and it seems I've started a war between some people!
    meteo man

    Adcom GFA-5400 amp
    Adcom GTP-602 tuner/preamp
    Toshiba SD2700 DVD player
    Rotel RCD-1070 CD player
    Paradigm Signature S2 speakers
    Velodyne SPL-800R subwoofer
    Adcom ACE-615 AC line conditioner
    Straightwire Stage speaker wires
    Straightwire Chorus cable interconnects

  24. #24
    Forum Regular Florian's Avatar
    Join Date
    Feb 2005
    Posts
    2,959
    Quote Originally Posted by RGA
    Run a test tone disc - have your eyes closed let someone set up the romk and run a 30hz tone through -- You will know where the sub is.
    I agree with RGA, my friend runs a REL Stadium with modified power supply (the stock one is crap) and when you run it x-o'd at 30Hz you can hear where it is. This is a Magnepan MG20 fully active and triamped. Granted, it is hard but you will be able to hear it out on complex music from Mahler or Bach. Thats why its better to use two subs instead of one.Ofcourse thats not the only advantage, but one of them. Or just ditch the box in your mains and buy a fullrange speaker that doesnt have a box in the first place. Or a good box speaker that is fullrange also. *

    PS: The Quads are very good in the midrange, and i mean very good. But the fact is that the Quads are limited in bandwith and the bottom end extension. What they do, they do very well tough.

    * I know its expensive but i am mentioning the ultimate solution here.
    Lots of music but not enough time for it all

  25. #25
    Class of the clown GMichael's Avatar
    Join Date
    Apr 2005
    Location
    Anywhere but here...
    Posts
    13,243
    Quote Originally Posted by Florian
    I agree with RGA,
    .

    Huh? This is great. Mark down today's date.

    Sorry, please excuse this interuption.
    WARNING! - The Surgeon General has determined that, time spent listening to music is not deducted from one's lifespan.

Page 1 of 4 1 2 3 ... LastLast

Thread Information

Users Browsing this Thread

There are currently 1 users browsing this thread. (0 members and 1 guests)

Posting Permissions

  • You may not post new threads
  • You may not post replies
  • You may not post attachments
  • You may not edit your posts
  •