Highest frequency that cannot be "localized" by the ear?

[Richard Greene]

Assuming almost all the bass above 80Hz. is coming from the satellite speakers, and the subwoofer is located in the vicinity of one or both main speakers (not alone in a far corner someone):

I recommend output at 160Hz. down at least 24dB versus bass output under 80Hz, (I personally prefer even less subwoofer output above 80Hz.)

We hear the location of the subwoofer from the output in the 80-160Hz. octave (which can be significant if low-pass filters are not at least 24dB/octave slope, with a turnover frequency no higher than 80Hz.).

With all other speakers turned off you can feel the sound pressure from a subwoofer and at least identify the side of the room it's located on AT ANY FREQUENCY.

You can feel a subwoofer behind you.

That's why for the best integration with the main speakers, subwoofers should be located near one main speaker, or between two main speakers.

[RGA]

Perhaps this is the explanation from Richard Greene. The only time a subwoofer was remotely convincing - even ones set up by professionals was when the sub was directly between the two speakers (which then makes it totally impractical. The toher was when one sub was behind each speaker.

Never ever ever have I been convinced by a system using one subwoofer not in the dead center between the two main speakers -- one sub on the left is heard from the left ALWAYS. Still I like them when something explodes in a movie.

[ruadmaa]

Perhaps this is the explanation from Richard Greene. The only time a subwoofer was remotely convincing - even ones set up by professionals was when the sub was directly between the two speakers (which then makes it totally impractical. The toher was when one sub was behind each speaker.

Never ever ever have I been convinced by a system using one subwoofer not in the dead center between the two main speakers -- one sub on the left is heard from the left ALWAYS. Still I like them when something explodes in a movie.

Sorry RGA, I strongly disagree with you. I use a 12 inch M&K powered subwoofer located on the far right front side of my room beside a sofa, and to date not one person has ever even known that a powered subwoofer was being used (in addition to the the two front 12 inch 4 way towers) that I use. The subwoofer is desquised as a lamp stand and draws no attention to itself. I suggest that mostly the eyes and mind are telling you where the subwoofer is. Frequencies of 80HZ or less are not locatable by hearing.

[RGA]

Sorry RGA, I strongly disagree with you. I use a 12 inch M&K powered subwoofer located on the far right front side of my room beside a sofa, and to date not one person has ever even known that a powered subwoofer was being used (in addition to the the two front 12 inch 4 way towers) that I use. The subwoofer is desquised as a lamp stand and draws no attention to itself. I suggest that mostly the eyes and mind are telling you where the subwoofer is. Frequencies of 80HZ or less are not locatable by hearing.

Run a test tone disc - have your eyes closed let someone set up the romk and run a 30hz tone through -- You will know where the sub is.

Music can take a fair bit longer because few music has any real bass - systems with a sub don;t integrate properly and sooner or later the ear drifts to where the sub is. In a short term listening test maybe not, but then the $20.00 computer speakers on the table with the sub on the floor fooled me for a few minutes too in that gee it sounded klike it was coming from the speaker -- and this is way way about 80hz.

And it's funny you mention M&K because THAT was the set-up with the sub in the middle that I was referring to. The dealer, who's father invented the sand filling speaker for Wharfedale, had Lucas as a client. The problem was that the sub in the center created a weight always int he center and the dealer rarely wanted to play anything other than a drum solo -- this music sounded great but heavier voices and a lack of left to right depth. Ultimately it was a bit of a boom and sizzle experience. Other sub set-ups in the corners namely with B&W N801 sounded dead - one note bass. If I have a complaint, aside from not meshing with the speakers is the kind of bass -- I either get fake added ambiance to everything (which i admit can sound pleasing enough) or I get an obvious tranfer.to one side of the room or a heavier weighted balance to one side of the room -- someone mentioned drums in the left corner if the sub is in the left corner -- umm that ain;t great when the drums are supposed to be on the other side.

My main experience with subs was with a Boston Acoustics SW 10 long throw powered sub. I can forgive many problems but it's problem is that it could not outdo the Wharfedale's bass depth. It could be run passive or with its power and powered it "alleviated" the Wharfedales from the task of providing the bass - The sound was terrible in this mode - boom and sizzle -- I could hear more "air" in the Wharfedale more midrange and treble but umm that's about it along with the subwoofer.

Good speakers don't need to be alleviated from their job -letting the receiver run everything sounded much better but then I ran into the problem that the sub didn't add any bass so I basically gave up on the thing.

Heard many new supposedly better subwoofer designs - but I am not going to BUY one until a dealer can prove to me that they will add musical value to the bottom end rather than one note bass or "slam" which isn't at all music but a throbbing impress your friends "wow that's cool" pyrotechnic. (like I say great for movies) not been convinced for music though I will agree that subs often help out a lot of unnaceptably aneamic speakers.

[theaudiohobby]

Run a test tone disc - have your eyes closed let someone set up the romk and run a 30hz tone through -- You will know where the sub is.

It is a '30Hz test tone! i.e. a single fundamental with no harmonics,it will be primarily audible through the subwoofer! Talk about stating the obvious ! At this point, your J's are several db down or not producing any sound at all, so sure you will locate the sub, try the same test with a music program, the outcome will be very different, if the crossover to the sub is sufficiently low.

[edlchiang62]

I appreciate all the responses, but I am afraid I am now more confused than ever about integrating a sub into a 2-channel system.

[RGA]

It is a '30Hz test tone! i.e. a single fundamental with no harmonics,it will be primarily audible through the subwoofer! Talk about stating the obvious ! At this point, your J's are several db down or not producing any sound at all, so sure you will locate the sub, try the same test with a music program, the outcome will be very different, if the crossover to the sub is sufficiently low.

Yes I have pedal organ work of the Saint Saens (though musically not my thing) and the subs drift. The fact that you do not get stereo sound from one sub should trigger a bit of a clue but then i'm talking to someone who thinks the 705 is a great speaker -- or even a good one. And if the Quad is satisfactory to you for bass of any sort then this discussion is going to lead nowhere.

[theaudiohobby]

Yes I have pedal organ work of the Saint Saens (though musically not my thing) and the subs drift.

Hello...30Hz test tone and Saint Saen pedal organ music, see the difference...

The fact that you do not get stereo sound from one sub should trigger a bit of a clue but then i'm talking to someone who thinks the 705 is a great speaker -- or even a good one.

What is the title of the thread? And the 705 is a good speaker irrespective of your preferences.

And if the Quad is satisfactory to you for bass of any sort then this discussion is going to lead nowhere.

, Do you know the -6dB point of the Quad ESL and next time try reading system details more closely before you comment.

[ruadmaa]

Run a test tone disc - have your eyes closed let someone set up the romk and run a 30hz tone through -- You will know where the sub is.

Music can take a fair bit longer because few music has any real bass - systems with a sub don;t integrate properly and sooner or later the ear drifts to where the sub is. In a short term listening test maybe not, but then the $20.00 computer speakers on the table with the sub on the floor fooled me for a few minutes too in that gee it sounded klike it was coming from the speaker -- and this is way way about 80hz.

And it's funny you mention M&K because THAT was the set-up with the sub in the middle that I was referring to. The dealer, who's father invented the sand filling speaker for Wharfedale, had Lucas as a client. The problem was that the sub in the center created a weight always int he center and the dealer rarely wanted to play anything other than a drum solo -- this music sounded great but heavier voices and a lack of left to right depth. Ultimately it was a bit of a boom and sizzle experience. Other sub set-ups in the corners namely with B&W N801 sounded dead - one note bass. If I have a complaint, aside from not meshing with the speakers is the kind of bass -- I either get fake added ambiance to everything (which i admit can sound pleasing enough) or I get an obvious tranfer.to one side of the room or a heavier weighted balance to one side of the room -- someone mentioned drums in the left corner if the sub is in the left corner -- umm that ain;t great when the drums are supposed to be on the other side.

My main experience with subs was with a Boston Acoustics SW 10 long throw powered sub. I can forgive many problems but it's problem is that it could not outdo the Wharfedale's bass depth. It could be run passive or with its power and powered it "alleviated" the Wharfedales from the task of providing the bass - The sound was terrible in this mode - boom and sizzle -- I could hear more "air" in the Wharfedale more midrange and treble but umm that's about it along with the subwoofer.

Good speakers don't need to be alleviated from their job -letting the receiver run everything sounded much better but then I ran into the problem that the sub didn't add any bass so I basically gave up on the thing.

Heard many new supposedly better subwoofer designs - but I am not going to BUY one until a dealer can prove to me that they will add musical value to the bottom end rather than one note bass or "slam" which isn't at all music but a throbbing impress your friends "wow that's cool" pyrotechnic. (like I say great for movies) not been convinced for music though I will agree that subs often help out a lot of unnaceptably aneamic speakers.

Sorry again RGA, I don't run test tones on my system other than for system setup, I run both music and movies . No one has ever been able to spot the subwoofer. Quite frankly, you wouldn't be able to locate it either, even if you were listening for it. I have listened to my system quite critically many times, there is no clue that a sub is being used.

[Pat D]

Sorry again RGA, I don't run test tones on my system other than for system setup, I run both music and movies . No one has ever been able to spot the subwoofer. Quite frankly, you wouldn't be able to locate it either, even if you were listening for it. I have listened to my system quite critically many times, there is no clue that a sub is being used.

It's pretty hard to miss my subwoofer if you know what it is, but it is totally sonically invisible unless turned up way too loud. I use an external crossover (partly for convenience) and the sub's own crossover so I get quite a steep low pass filter. Down in the family room, the smaller subwoofer for HT is behind a chair and no one ever knows it's back there.