Highest frequency that cannot be "localized" by the ear?

[RGA]

Hello...30Hz test tone and Saint Saen pedal organ music, see the difference...



What is the title of the thread? And the 705 is a good speaker irrespective of your preferences.


, Do you know the -6dB point of the Quad ESL and next time try reading system details more closely before you comment.

Actually I know both points and neither is pretty - the Quads do not measure well - they have no credible bass and no bass dynamics whatsoever they're a midrange speaker (despite your preferences for rolled off bandwidth limited speakers).

[theaudiohobby]

[

Actually I know both points and neither is pretty -).measure well - they have no credible bass and no bass dynamics

, what is the -6dB point of the Quad ESL? As for the B&W 705, The true -6dB point is published on the B&W site, and there are some comprehensive measurements available from other sources, if do not you have any information that contradicts those, your comments about its -6dB point are pointless.

whatsoever they're a midrange speaker (despite your preferences for rolled off bandwidth limited speakers).

as usual clutching at straws again.. and taking leave of the thread topic in the process

[edlchiang62]

Jeez..I thought I asked a simple question about localization of sounds and it seems I've started a war between some people!

[Florian]

Run a test tone disc - have your eyes closed let someone set up the romk and run a 30hz tone through -- You will know where the sub is.

I agree with RGA, my friend runs a REL Stadium with modified power supply (the stock one is crap) and when you run it x-o'd at 30Hz you can hear where it is. This is a Magnepan MG20 fully active and triamped. Granted, it is hard but you will be able to hear it out on complex music from Mahler or Bach. Thats why its better to use two subs instead of one.Ofcourse thats not the only advantage, but one of them. Or just ditch the box in your mains and buy a fullrange speaker that doesnt have a box in the first place. Or a good box speaker that is fullrange also. *

PS: The Quads are very good in the midrange, and i mean very good. But the fact is that the Quads are limited in bandwith and the bottom end extension. What they do, they do very well tough.

* I know its expensive but i am mentioning the ultimate solution here.

[GMichael]

I agree with RGA,
.

Huh? This is great. Mark down today's date.

Sorry, please excuse this interuption.

[Florian]

I agree with him quite often actually, smart guy. I just dont like his speakers

[GMichael]

I have never heard A.N.'s or Apogee's so I can't say which are better. But I would suspect that both are better than mine, and both have their pro's & con's. It's all in ones tastes.

[Pat D]

I agree with RGA, my friend runs a REL Stadium with modified power supply (the stock one is crap) and when you run it x-o'd at 30Hz you can hear where it is. This is a Magnepan MG20 fully active and triamped. Granted, it is hard but you will be able to hear it out on complex music from Mahler or Bach. Thats why its better to use two subs instead of one.Ofcourse thats not the only advantage, but one of them. Or just ditch the box in your mains and buy a fullrange speaker that doesnt have a box in the first place. Or a good box speaker that is fullrange also. *

PS: The Quads are very good in the midrange, and i mean very good. But the fact is that the Quads are limited in bandwith and the bottom end extension. What they do, they do very well tough.

* I know its expensive but i am mentioning the ultimate solution here.

Before you agree with RGA, you'd better get the facts straight: So what is the slope of the low pass filter (crossover to you) for the REL sub?

Any speaker has a limited bandwith and low frequency extension. The question is what those limits are. In some rooms, the Quad ESL-63 can do a reasonable job reproducing the 32 Hz organ pedal in Saint Saens Organ Symphony.

[Florian]

No no no, i will not get into any details at all and discuss this here. I simply agree with RGA that you can hear a subwoofer out in any system, especially with magnetostatics and electrostatics since they are too slow (the subs). I also think that subwoofers have a sonic character. My opinion are generally too different then the masses, so i will stick to my own kind when it comes to these kind of discussions.

[gonefishin]

No no no, i will not get into any details at all and discuss this here. I simply agree with RGA that you can hear a subwoofer out in any system, especially with magnetostatics and electrostatics since they are too slow (the subs). I also think that subwoofers have a sonic character. My opinion are generally too different then the masses, so i will stick to my own kind when it comes to these kind of discussions.

lol...and your arguments are looking more and more like his as well.



Oh...the stats are too fast...blahhh


dan

[Sir Terrence the Terrible]

I agree with RGA, my friend runs a REL Stadium with modified power supply (the stock one is crap) and when you run it x-o'd at 30Hz you can hear where it is. This is a Magnepan MG20 fully active and triamped. Granted, it is hard but you will be able to hear it out on complex music from Mahler or Bach. Thats why its better to use two subs instead of one.Ofcourse thats not the only advantage, but one of them. Or just ditch the box in your mains and buy a fullrange speaker that doesnt have a box in the first place. Or a good box speaker that is fullrange also. *

Florian, you will feel the pressure wave, but you will not be able to localize the sub unless there are walls or objects vibrating near the sub. The wavelength of a 30hz tone is larger than most rooms, so it makes it next to impossible to hear the location of this tone unless overtones where being produced by the sub too. This also depends highly on the slope of the crossover. A 6db per octave crossover with have very audible components higher above the crossover frequency. A 24db per octave crossover will have considerable less ouput above the crossover point.

Two subs require alot more work to setup and measure properly. However if bass coverage for more than one seat is desired, two spaced subs in opposite front corners works wonders.

[RGA]

[
, what is the -6dB point of the Quad ESL? As for the B&W 705, The true -6dB point is published on the B&W site, and there are some comprehensive measurements available from other sources, if do not you have any information that contradicts those, your comments about its -6dB point are pointless.


as usual clutching at straws again.. and taking leave of the thread topic in the process

You're the one who brought up the 6db point -- you're the one who has the speaker -- you post it and I shall let you know if you are lying or not - I am referring to the bigger bass version in the ESL 63 -- in room response from a professional installer measured at 100db from it's rated "flat" 1khz tone. Forget the Saint Saens what a laugh. Let's give it some synthed pop -- put on some Madonna pop and even ACDC rock and the bass and midbadd and upper bass equal George Castanza after coming out of the pool.

[theaudiohobby]

in room response from a professional installer measured at 100db from it's rated "flat" 1khz tone. Forget the Saint Saens what a laugh. Let's give it some synthed pop -- put on some Madonna pop and even ACDC rock and the bass and midbadd and upper bass equal George Castanza after coming out of the pool.

??? What relevance does a 1KHz tone with the lower -6dB point.How about just leaving aside the trivia and simply answering the original question.

You're the one who brought up the 6db point -- you're the one who has the speaker -- you post it and I shall let you know if you are lying or not - I am referring to the bigger bass version in the ESL 63

I posited the question to you because of your previous comments because I suspected and rightly in the light of your responses that you are going by hearsay, rather than having any real firsthand knowledge of these ESLs.

Pat D echoes my sentiments and your response to his post is well..a rant. By the way going by your response to Pat D, we Quad owners should be in a better position to discuss sub integration since "most anyone who owns a quad rushes right out and buys a subwoofer!"

[RGA]

??? What relevance does a 1KHz tone with the lower -6dB point.How about just leaving aside the trivia and simply answering the original question.



I posited the question to you because of your previous comments because I suspected and rightly in the light of your responses that you are going by hearsay, rather than having any real firsthand knowledge of these ESLs.

Pat D echoes my sentiments and your response to his post is well..a rant. By the way going by your response to Pat D, we Quad owners should be in a better position to discuss sub integration since "most anyone who owns a quad rushes right out and buys a subwoofer!"

The ESL 63 was measured professionally by a dealer in Vancouver who I know fairly well. They did several measurements to fill out a frequency plot --- that dealer is a the biggest pro dealsihip in Canada and the biggest Bryston pro monitoring ansd seller to recording studios in BC. So they know how to measure they have a full studio and they install. I am not going to get into this again but with listening to the 63 and being dismayed at how truly bad it is and then having them just grin in agreement with the points I made they just said "yeah I bet you can;t find a worse speaker in the entire store -- and they sold B&O knowing B&O was no good but it sells. I commented on the bass and the reply was yeah it has none. On a good day in the right room it might hit 35hz at the -10db rate but not at any sort of volume - they don't rock.

I mean forget ALL rock and pop, country and dance, rap or ANYTHING with a ANY sort of drum, rythm or depth of stage. You get a thin two dimensional stage which if you sit in a vice will give you big scale(which is artifically imprinted by the speakers as most very large speakers tend to do) -- and while it's very clear it is because the total lack of bass will sound clear and thin sound sounds clear (so being free of bass and balls and dynamics may be arguesd as free of box colouration but then it's also free of 50% of ewhat was on the recording too.

It took 2 years but somebody did buy them so preferences are the key thing -- somebody found something in them to like but please don;t give me they are great for all music and great bass speakers - puhleeze http://www.commercialelectronics.ca/...eringHome.html

[Florian]

I think your a little bit too negative on him RGA. The Quads do some things very well, but your right they dont rock. I also dont agree on his "Facts" on subwoofer integration with the panel. But they are definetly way beyond the B&O speakers. The midrange is very nice on them and is great for listening to female voices. You are right about the enlargment of voices on speakers with a large surface area but the difference between flat and curved panels are quite big. Flat panels dont suffer from the size changing imaging when moving in its radiating plane like curved panels do. Also most box speakers incl. AN's display the image scale too small. There is no optimium speaker but i wouldnt cut the Quad down like that. It does have a special midrange magic and is very resolving in its frequency range.

-Flo

[Pat D]

You're the one who brought up the 6db point -- you're the one who has the speaker -- you post it and I shall let you know if you are lying or not - I am referring to the bigger bass version in the ESL 63 -- in room response from a professional installer measured at 100db from it's rated "flat" 1khz tone. Forget the Saint Saens what a laugh. Let's give it some synthed pop -- put on some Madonna pop and even ACDC rock and the bass and midbadd and upper bass equal George Castanza after coming out of the pool.

Of course a Quad ESL-63 will not do 100 dB in the deep bass. Who ever suggested it could? It's not for headbangers. I fear for your hearing if you listen at such levels. Try them at 85 dBa and they do have deep bass. Those of us who like the ESL-63 in a proper set up generally like them for what they can do and are usually too much bothered by what they can't do. The output limits of the ESL-63 in the deep bass have been well known since Richard C. Heyser reviewed them in Audio magazine in 1985 (as I recall). A subwoofer can increase the output capability of the system in the deep bass.

[RGA]

Of course a Quad ESL-63 will not do 100 dB in the deep bass. Who ever suggested it could? It's not for headbangers. I fear for your hearing if you listen at such levels. Try them at 85 dBa and they do have deep bass. Those of us who like the ESL-63 in a proper set up generally like them for what they can do and are usually too much bothered by what they can't do. The output limits of the ESL-63 in the deep bass have been well known since Richard C. Heyser reviewed them in Audio magazine in 1985 (as I recall). A subwoofer can increase the output capability of the system in the deep bass.

We listend at 85db and that was i meter -- it was just under 80db at the listening position.

And actually the deep bass is hardly ever the real concern anyway since almost no music goes under 30hz -- I am not a bass hound but it is required as an anchor to the rest of the event. It is in the main band where all the panels I've so far heard fail to excite. If one only listens to classical and strings then it's a non issue. but that band from around 80-300hz is where there is no realness no impact and no body being presented. So instead of knocking the speaker people just wsay well all rock, folk, pop, music is badly recorded. Sorry but no. Music has thunder and if one speaker can produce that thunder when it's on the disc and the Quad can't then it's the Quad's problem. I would not complain at all about them except they are just so insanely priced for being such an incredibly limited speaker. Interestingly the Castle Eden a boxed speaker for about 1/5 the price had the exact same problem -- but at least if the Castle blows its treble transducer it does not require chucking them in the bin or going broke to fix them.

And stacking is similar to having a speaker the requires two drivers to cover the same frequency band - according to Leo L Beranek, Peter Snell, Harry Olson among others this causes more problems than it fixes.

[theaudiohobby]

We listend at 85db and that was i meter -- it was just under 80db at the listening position.

And actually the deep bass is hardly ever the real concern anyway since almost no music goes under 30hz -- I am not a bass hound but it is required as an anchor to the rest of the event. It is in the main band where all the panels I've so far heard fail to excite. If one only listens to classical and strings then it's a non issue. but that band from around 80-300hz is where there is no realness no impact and no body being presented. So instead of knocking the speaker people just wsay well all rock, folk, pop, music is badly recorded. Sorry but no. Music has thunder and if one speaker can produce that thunder when it's on the disc and the Quad can't then it's the Quad's problem.

Nobody is forcing you to like the speaker or any panel for that matter, enough people like the Quad ESLs that a whole cottage industry has been built around servicing them , better than that, new ones are still rolling off the line, talk about longetivity. That said, your comments about the 80-300Hz band are simply wrong, there are enough measurements and subjective opinions around to attest to that, afterall the original ESL has been around for over 40years and the ESL 63 for over 15 years. Bass does not begin to roll off until after 80Hz (55Hz for 63, both cases anechoic) and it has +4dB peak at 90Hz, such measurements validated by a majority of the publshed subjective opinion (take look at AR reviews of either speaker) are at odds with your comments, Many acoustic instruments have a lot of energy in that region anyway, so poor performance in that region will result in a very different speaker.

I would not complain at all about them except they are just so insanely priced for being such an incredibly limited speaker. Interestingly the Castle Eden a boxed speaker for about 1/5 the price had the exact same problem -- but at least if the Castle blows its treble transducer it does not require chucking them in the bin or going broke to fix them.

Fixing a Quad is not rocket science, and there are enough houses that can do the job at very reasonable prices.

And stacking is similar to having a speaker the requires two drivers to cover the same frequency band - according to Leo L Beranek, Peter Snell, Harry Olson among others this causes more problems than it fixes.

The Quad ESL is a line source, not a point source, so stacking them does not cause problems that are opined by Messrs. Beranek et al. And that is why it is such popular tweak for those who have the space to accomodate the much larger resultant speaker.