Full Review of the new B&W 800D

[RGA]

You know I have this feeling I'm not convinced. I never get why the new review says we fixed all the problems of the old model -- but no one told us all the problems of the old model when the old model was a new model. I'll have to give them more of a serious listen next time...B&W's only real problems have been a lack of bass resolution (one note bass) and a treble driver doesn;t uite stay in step with the break-up in the top of the midrange driver's pass-band (well that's the techno-babble of others who seem to have the answer for what I hear) a compartmentalized sound of 3 drivers doing their own thing and not recreating a real instrument or voice in space.

I hope it's MILES better than the N802 which is already in tough against several $2kCad speakers in the listenability departments for me. It needs cohesion, bass, and a smoother treble...we shall see - diamond sounds gimmicky to me - kevlar was IMO.

[theaudiohobby]

I hope it's MILES better than the N802 which is already in tough against several $2kCad speakers in the listenability departments for me. It needs cohesion, bass, and a smoother treble...we shall see - diamond sounds gimmicky to me - kevlar was IMO.

What do you know about diamond or even Kevlar... , I am okay with your criticism of the sound just not too sure why you singled out certain materials for criticism, I thought it was about the whole package.

[kexodusc]

You know I have this feeling I'm not convinced. I never get why the new review says we fixed all the problems of the old model -- but no one told us all the problems of the old model when the old model was a new model. I'll have to give them more of a serious listen next time...B&W's only real problems have been a lack of bass resolution (one note bass) and a treble driver doesn;t uite stay in step with the break-up in the top of the midrange driver's pass-band (well that's the techno-babble of others who seem to have the answer for what I hear) a compartmentalized sound of 3 drivers doing their own thing and not recreating a real instrument or voice in space.

I hope it's MILES better than the N802 which is already in tough against several $2kCad speakers in the listenability departments for me. It needs cohesion, bass, and a smoother treble...we shall see - diamond sounds gimmicky to me - kevlar was IMO.

I didn't hate the N802 at all, I just got sick when I learned the price. There are a few $2000 -$4000 speakers I can think of that stand up to it quite well. I'm not sure if the designers are to blame or of it's just the marketing geniuses that directly correlate price with size instead of sound? People are willing to pay for the brand name. Then again, I've heard speakers that cost more than the N802 that were worse.

Without passing judgement on this speakers performance, it's sad to see B&W feeling a need to increase costs when the rest of the speaker industry is finding many ways of improving sound while reducing costs.
I think the giant corporations are slowly but surely seeing their market share slip away, losing their competitive edge, and their ability to adapt fast enough. Not sure if this is a good thing or not.

As for Kevlar...not sure why you feel it's a gimmick.

[20to20K]

...you have to keep in mind the value of the dollar versus that pound has seriously
plummetted since the last series was introduced. Nearly by 50 cents a pound.

I'm sure that had to play some role in the US price for their speakers this time around.

I've listened to the 803N and was somewhat impressed...but thought the Faber Grand Piano's sounded as good (maybe better) for $1500 less. So your point is well taken.

[kexodusc]

That's true, 20to20K, but the British price has gone up too according to that British article.

[thepogue]

quite impressive...but wayyyyy over priced IMHO...20K for any speaker is kinda mad in my book...but I'm a cheapo....so thats just me. I'm not at all a fan of the base of the unit either...but it is on wheels so it makes it easy to slide around..when I saw that I was thinking about all the hub-bub about coupling w/ high end spikes....but shoot I had that idea before them (B&W) when I put casters on me sub!! oh well...should have contacted the patient office


Pogue

[RGA]

That's true, 20to20K, but the British price has gone up too according to that British article.

I don;t buy the dollar shipping argument because the AX Two is hand built and shipped in from Denmark and then there is the 705 which is 3 times the price no better at all looks nicer and better finish -- depends what premium you want to pay for heavy advertising/staff , high mark-ups, overhead etc.

TAH
As for implementation of materials well I have yet to hear a speaker using a metal tweeeter from anyone I would want to own and listen to every day -- I have yet to hear a speaker using kevlar I would want to own everyday. The link from that expert yuou always posted read it over -- he'll tell you all about Kevlar. I notice because you didn;t read it close enough you never post hm anymore -- just selective if it supports your preference. B&W is basically the new Bose -- WAY overpriced for what you get.

I will be interested to do a shootout between the D800 series, the AN E Sec and the Maggie 20.1

[thepogue]

but your point about B&W being way over priced is correct IMO...I still very much like the 801's but they listed for 11K...I like them for 4

Pogue

[kexodusc]

B&W is basically the new Bose -- WAY overpriced for what you get.

I know speaker owners are worse than Harley Davidson owners-loyal to a fault, but come on RGA...I would accept B&W is the new JBL or something, but that's a bit low...

Maybe if B&W started selling 4 inch tall little snail shaped speakers in Sears...maybe...

[theaudiohobby]

The link from that expert yuou always posted read it over -- he'll tell you all about Kevlar. I notice because you didn;t read it close enough you never post hm anymore -- just selective if it supports your preference.

I do not know who you referring to, but at least you refer to him as an expert, are you? What do you know about the sound of kevlar, paper, diamond, silk and the various iterations thereof?

FTR: A while back before I sold on the AN-Ks, I disconnected the woofer and listened solely to the tweeter and much to my surprise it was rather harsh sounding in comparison to the other speakers I had around the house at the time.

[drseid]

As for implementation of materials well I have yet to hear a speaker using a metal tweeeter from anyone I would want to own and listen to every day -- I have yet to hear a speaker using kevlar I would want to own everyday. The link from that expert yuou always posted read it over -- he'll tell you all about Kevlar. I notice because you didn't read it close enough you never post hm anymore -- just selective if it supports your preference. B&W is basically the new Bose -- WAY overpriced for what you get.

I think that B&W would have to get *much* more greedy before I would go anywhere near calling them "the new Bose."

I confess to not being a big fan in general of their sound for the money, but many people love it, and there are too many other companies to mention that could lower their price quite a bit as well. I would say B&W speakers tend to cost more than they should... but maybe not... If the market is willing to pay it, then the cost is what the market is willing to bear.

As for Kevlar drivers being implemented properly... Give the Legacy Whispers a listen. They are an excellent example of what a good Eton made kevlar driver can do in the right design. There are many other good designs too, of course... and I have built one for my Dad (and it even had an inverted Titanium dome tweeter as well, made by Focal).

I agree with the previous poster that said it is all about the implementation... When you go to CES next year, give some more speakers using these drivers a listen and you may just be surprised at just how many good designs there are out there.

---Dave

[RGA]

My comparison to Bose is no a comparison of SOUND -- I would take the DM 302 or 303 over the Bose 901. So I'll explain myself more clearly.

As Kex noted and in which I fully agree. You take a speaker like the N802 which is about $10kCad -- the price has fluctuated over the dollar up to 11k down to 9k...but it's in this ballpark. Many people have mentioned that they have heard $2kcad speaker which are at least no worse some better. So what I am saying is that B&W has created a speaker largely marketing driven with sexy looks and are charging 5 TIMES the price of other speakers which are no worse and maybe better. This is the ultimate Bose marketing machine -- only it is the Bose marketing machine to higher end shoppers -- basically we're just adding a zero to the numbers. Bose charges 5 times the price for their speakers due to name recognition and branding and packaging -- you can buy their $1200.00Cdn surround package and get its equal someplace else for $300-$500.00Cad.

That was my point. B&W has shifted from solid to very good for the money to retreads of earlier designs for big money -- the only speaker line their line-up that I feel is still offerring good value for the dollar is the 600 series -- and incidentally it's the line that has had the price stay relatively the same and the design is largely the same. The 700 series went way up over the previous line and is not better - the CM series always has been overpriced.

The speakers that were heralded as great bang for buck products the DM 302, CDM 2SE, Matrix 805 were dropped completely or replaced with a more expensive worse soudning sepaker. This is just an opinion folks I'm not claiming this as any sort of fact you have to believe -- it's just my take on watching one of my favorite speaker makers (at one time my favorite) seemingly coast on the name.

As for drivers -- in isolation means nothing -- it's how well it works together the article TAH used to always post I cannot remember the fellow's name but he goes over the sound properties of ALL drivers and their strengths and weaknesses -- metal has poor break-up (and don;t think that just applies to loud listening or when the driver is stressed - because it does not though it is most noticeable there). If the drivers are out of sink by even small degrees that is far more distracting than any short frequency anomoly which are ears are far less sensitive too. The CDM 1NT which I like was not free from this problem and can and was distracting when apparent GAPS in the music would form when acoustic instruments would have a clearly audible lapse and significant beaming. I recommended the speaker nevertheless because of price/overall performance. 705 actually has improved it a bit but took several steps back to my ear in virtually ever single other area and costs more and looks worse. (all subjective listening with outstanding gear in real listening environments).

I know people love B&W -- People love BOSE too.

TAh you know full well who I'm referring too since you posted the link all over the net for months and months and I will look for it hard if you're afraid to post it. He is a designer and reviewer who posted all the driver properties advantages and disadvantages of each kind --Once I and John Ashman pointed out to you that he ripped Kevlar drivers and that he owns an Audio Note amplifier claimning it to be by far the worst measuring unit but by far the best sounding -- you never posted it again -- naturally because all of a sudden he didn't agree with your TASTE. His name will come to me -- indeed I can do a search on this forum since I've quoted him several times.