Full Review of the new B&W 800D

[RGA]

That's true, 20to20K, but the British price has gone up too according to that British article.

I don;t buy the dollar shipping argument because the AX Two is hand built and shipped in from Denmark and then there is the 705 which is 3 times the price no better at all looks nicer and better finish -- depends what premium you want to pay for heavy advertising/staff , high mark-ups, overhead etc.

TAH
As for implementation of materials well I have yet to hear a speaker using a metal tweeeter from anyone I would want to own and listen to every day -- I have yet to hear a speaker using kevlar I would want to own everyday. The link from that expert yuou always posted read it over -- he'll tell you all about Kevlar. I notice because you didn;t read it close enough you never post hm anymore -- just selective if it supports your preference. B&W is basically the new Bose -- WAY overpriced for what you get.

I will be interested to do a shootout between the D800 series, the AN E Sec and the Maggie 20.1

[thepogue]

but your point about B&W being way over priced is correct IMO...I still very much like the 801's but they listed for 11K...I like them for 4

Pogue

[kexodusc]

B&W is basically the new Bose -- WAY overpriced for what you get.

I know speaker owners are worse than Harley Davidson owners-loyal to a fault, but come on RGA...I would accept B&W is the new JBL or something, but that's a bit low...

Maybe if B&W started selling 4 inch tall little snail shaped speakers in Sears...maybe...

[theaudiohobby]

The link from that expert yuou always posted read it over -- he'll tell you all about Kevlar. I notice because you didn;t read it close enough you never post hm anymore -- just selective if it supports your preference.

I do not know who you referring to, but at least you refer to him as an expert, are you? What do you know about the sound of kevlar, paper, diamond, silk and the various iterations thereof?

FTR: A while back before I sold on the AN-Ks, I disconnected the woofer and listened solely to the tweeter and much to my surprise it was rather harsh sounding in comparison to the other speakers I had around the house at the time.

[drseid]

As for implementation of materials well I have yet to hear a speaker using a metal tweeeter from anyone I would want to own and listen to every day -- I have yet to hear a speaker using kevlar I would want to own everyday. The link from that expert yuou always posted read it over -- he'll tell you all about Kevlar. I notice because you didn't read it close enough you never post hm anymore -- just selective if it supports your preference. B&W is basically the new Bose -- WAY overpriced for what you get.

I think that B&W would have to get *much* more greedy before I would go anywhere near calling them "the new Bose."

I confess to not being a big fan in general of their sound for the money, but many people love it, and there are too many other companies to mention that could lower their price quite a bit as well. I would say B&W speakers tend to cost more than they should... but maybe not... If the market is willing to pay it, then the cost is what the market is willing to bear.

As for Kevlar drivers being implemented properly... Give the Legacy Whispers a listen. They are an excellent example of what a good Eton made kevlar driver can do in the right design. There are many other good designs too, of course... and I have built one for my Dad (and it even had an inverted Titanium dome tweeter as well, made by Focal).

I agree with the previous poster that said it is all about the implementation... When you go to CES next year, give some more speakers using these drivers a listen and you may just be surprised at just how many good designs there are out there.

---Dave

[RGA]

My comparison to Bose is no a comparison of SOUND -- I would take the DM 302 or 303 over the Bose 901. So I'll explain myself more clearly.

As Kex noted and in which I fully agree. You take a speaker like the N802 which is about $10kCad -- the price has fluctuated over the dollar up to 11k down to 9k...but it's in this ballpark. Many people have mentioned that they have heard $2kcad speaker which are at least no worse some better. So what I am saying is that B&W has created a speaker largely marketing driven with sexy looks and are charging 5 TIMES the price of other speakers which are no worse and maybe better. This is the ultimate Bose marketing machine -- only it is the Bose marketing machine to higher end shoppers -- basically we're just adding a zero to the numbers. Bose charges 5 times the price for their speakers due to name recognition and branding and packaging -- you can buy their $1200.00Cdn surround package and get its equal someplace else for $300-$500.00Cad.

That was my point. B&W has shifted from solid to very good for the money to retreads of earlier designs for big money -- the only speaker line their line-up that I feel is still offerring good value for the dollar is the 600 series -- and incidentally it's the line that has had the price stay relatively the same and the design is largely the same. The 700 series went way up over the previous line and is not better - the CM series always has been overpriced.

The speakers that were heralded as great bang for buck products the DM 302, CDM 2SE, Matrix 805 were dropped completely or replaced with a more expensive worse soudning sepaker. This is just an opinion folks I'm not claiming this as any sort of fact you have to believe -- it's just my take on watching one of my favorite speaker makers (at one time my favorite) seemingly coast on the name.

As for drivers -- in isolation means nothing -- it's how well it works together the article TAH used to always post I cannot remember the fellow's name but he goes over the sound properties of ALL drivers and their strengths and weaknesses -- metal has poor break-up (and don;t think that just applies to loud listening or when the driver is stressed - because it does not though it is most noticeable there). If the drivers are out of sink by even small degrees that is far more distracting than any short frequency anomoly which are ears are far less sensitive too. The CDM 1NT which I like was not free from this problem and can and was distracting when apparent GAPS in the music would form when acoustic instruments would have a clearly audible lapse and significant beaming. I recommended the speaker nevertheless because of price/overall performance. 705 actually has improved it a bit but took several steps back to my ear in virtually ever single other area and costs more and looks worse. (all subjective listening with outstanding gear in real listening environments).

I know people love B&W -- People love BOSE too.

TAh you know full well who I'm referring too since you posted the link all over the net for months and months and I will look for it hard if you're afraid to post it. He is a designer and reviewer who posted all the driver properties advantages and disadvantages of each kind --Once I and John Ashman pointed out to you that he ripped Kevlar drivers and that he owns an Audio Note amplifier claimning it to be by far the worst measuring unit but by far the best sounding -- you never posted it again -- naturally because all of a sudden he didn't agree with your TASTE. His name will come to me -- indeed I can do a search on this forum since I've quoted him several times.

[RGA]

First name Lynn rings a bell -- I'm thinking Lynn Olsen -- I'll keep looking.

[theaudiohobby]

TAh you know full well who I'm referring too since you posted the link all over the net for months and months and I will look for it hard if you're afraid to post it. He is a designer and reviewer who posted all the driver properties advantages and disadvantages of each kind --Once I and John Ashman pointed out to you that he ripped Kevlar drivers and that he owns an Audio Note amplifier claimning it to be by far the worst measuring unit but by far the best sounding -- you never posted it again -- naturally because all of a sudden he didn't agree with your TASTE. His name will come to me -- indeed I can do a search on this forum since I've quoted him several times.

RGA,

Next time do your research before you post, you have scored an own goal, follow this thread and read the context of the post, John used Lynn's article to attack Kevlar. For the record, John Ashman posted that article in October 2004, a full three months before this thread started, and quoted from the article on a least one occasion before thread in question, FTR in that article, Lynn said

I should add, by the way, that I like Kevlar and carbon-fiber drivers very
much ... but they are difficult drivers to work with, with strong resonant
signatures that must be controlled acoustically and electrically.

in other words, as previously stated, it is the implementation that matters, not the actual material.

I decided not to resist posting this article by Lynn Olsen for you to mull over everytime you dream of the Ongaku, Lynn said of the LNPA 150 Class AB transistor amplifier

In comparing this amp to the latest audiophile confected unveiled at the Winter 1995 CES, I'd have to say this one is still my favorite at any kind of sane price point. It's the only transistor I've heard so far that has soul and body to the sound, with a remarkable ability to convey the emotional tone of the performance; this is the normal preserve of the direct-heated single-ended 2A3 and 300B triode, not transistors arranged in the usual complementary-symmetry topology.
So much for the conventional wisdom, eh?...

I have to say, though, that marked the third time I've packed up an amplifier with a genuine sense of regret (the first two were the Audio Note Ongaku and the Reichert 300B's)..

and that was almost ten years ago, I leave you work out the implications of his comments.

[Buzz Roll]

I'm going to try to check out a pair of these speakers at my dealer here in NYC. I'm going in with low expectations, but I'll try to supply another view on them if I can.

BTW, audiohobby, I just have to say that I just sat in on a mix session with a pair of Genelec 8030As - not bad!! I at least owe you that information.

[theaudiohobby]

thanks, Buzz Roll

[RGA]

RGA,

Next time do your research before you post, you have scored an own goal, follow this thread and read the context of the post, John used Lynn's article to attack Kevlar. For the record, John Ashman posted that article in October 2004, a full three months before this thread started, and quoted from the article on a least one occasion before thread in question, FTR in that article, Lynn said
in other words, as previously stated, it is the implementation that matters, not the actual material.

I decided not to resist posting this article by Lynn Olsen for you to mull over everytime you dream of the Ongaku, Lynn said of the LNPA 150 Class AB transistor amplifier

and that was almost ten years ago, I leave you work out the implications of his comments.

you should also know that Lynn's ONLY kevlar exception is that of scanspeak not of B&W -- did you e-mail to ask which one Lynn doesn;t like -- it's B&W just so you know which of course should be obvious since at the time B&W was the ONLY major company making speakers with Kevlar...so i'm not sure you were under the impression he was obviously referring to B&W or not -- but now you know.


Are you under some delusion that I believe AN is perfect or the best? That if I post a great response to an item that someone won't ever like something a bit better...The ongaku has been improved and downright changed 3 times since 1994 -- and there is the UK version which is about half the price now.

"The Ongaku, by far, had the worst THD and power measurements ... 22W at 3%
distortion. It also made the Ariel sound better than any electrostat I've
ever heard ... in fact, the best sound I'd heard in many years. It
certainly sounded better than anything I heard at the 1994 Winter CES. So
what's going on here? Maybe THD is simply measuring the wrong thing"

Suffice it to say it's a great amplifier which he liked more than the Reichert. The SS amp was also sent packing -- there is no indication he likes it any better than theRecihert or the ongaku the latter isn't at a sane price which is why he had to return it -- he can't afford it...not many can. So if you read what he says clearly he likes the SS amp as his favorite at a SANE price -- which means it is NOT his favorite at ANY price. Though I would be interested to hear this SS amp because very few are at all good so I'm sure he's probably right that this one is a standout.

I'm sure he can find better than the 1993-94 Ongaku --- he just needs to look up the new ones.

"From Lynn
"At the present, though, even the best Kevlar, carbon-fiber, or aluminum
designs show at least one high-Q peak at the top of the working range,
requiring a sharp crossover, a notch filter, or preferably both to control
the peak. Unfortunately, this peak usually falls in a region between 3 and
5 kHz, right where the ear is most sensitive to resonant coloration."

B&W Corssover 4khz (as many have said a BAD choice)

"There are highly-reviewed (by the large-circulation "underground"
magazines[ie B&W]) 2-way speakers that use 7" Kevlar drivers[ie B&W] crossed over to
metal-dome tweeters[ie B&W]. Technically, these loudspeakers operate with uniform
motion over the range of both drivers; in practice, though, the crossovers
are hard pressed to remove all of the energy from the Kevlar breakup region
between 3 and 5 kHz."

"The reviews of these particular 2-way speakers go on at considerable, and
amusing, length about the trials in finding an amplifier that "revealed"
the full quality of the loudspeaker. In reality, the reviewer was forced to
use an amplifier that was particularly free of coloration in the region
where the Kevlar driver was breaking up. Since most audiophiles and
reviewers are unfamilar with the direct sound (and measurements) of
commonly-used raw drivers, they can't evaluate how much "Kevlar sound", or
"aluminum sound", remains as a residue in the finished design."

"This is a problem, by the way, that plagues all [ALL means B&W] current 2-way Kevlar,
metal, or carbon-fiber loudspeakers ... at the current state of the art,
the 6.5" or 7" drivers are forced to operate right up to the edge of their
working ranges in order to meet the tweeter in a moderate-distortion
frequency range."

"If you lower the crossover frequency, tweeter IM distortion skyrockets,
resulting in raspy, distorted high frequencies at mid-to-high listening
levels; if you raise the crossover frequency, the Kevlar breakup creeps in,
resulting in a forward, aggressive sound at moderate listening levels[B&W 4khz}, and
complete breakup at high levels (unlike paper cones, Kevlar, metal, and
carbon fibers do not go into gradual breakup)."

Which is why they don;t sound very cohesive

"I should add, by the way, that I like Kevlar and carbon-fiber drivers very
much ... but they are difficult drivers to work with, with strong resonant
signatures that must be controlled acoustically and electrically."

"As mentioned above, rigid cones have advantages, but are difficult to damp
completely. A different approach is to use a cone material that is made
from a highly lossy material (traditionally, this was plastic-doped paper,
but this has been supplanted by polypropylene in most modern loudspeakers).
The cone then damps itself, progressively losing energy as the impulse from
the voice coil spreads outwards across the cone surface. The choice of
spider and surround are then much less critical.

This type of material[POLYPROLYENE] typically measures quite flat and also allows a
simple 6dB/Octave crossover; personally, though, I don't care for the sound
of most polypropylene drivers, finding them rather vague and
blurry-sounding at low-to-medium listening levels. {Read Paradigm et al} Without access to a B&K
swept IM distortion analyzer, I have to resort to guesswork, but I strongly
suspect that this type of cone has fairly high IM distortion since it is
quite soft. In addition, it is quite difficult to make a material that has
perfectly linear mechanical attenuation; in practice, distortion creeps in
when you actually want a progressive attenuation of energy over the surface
of the cone."

And back to Kevlar -

"A unique and quite desirable property of the latest Scan-Speak Kevlar
drivers is a smooth rolloff region above the usual Kevlar peak. All of the
other Kevlar drivers [ALL MEANS B&W] (that I have measured and listened to) have chaotic
breakup regions; the Scan-Speaks are the only ones [ONLY MEANS NOT B&W that appear
well-controlled in this region..."

B&W does not use Scan-Speak (Note the part ALL OF THE OTHERS).

Now do you believe that Lynn Olsen has NEVER in his life designing and reviewing has NEVER EVER HEARD A SINGLE B&W SPEAKER USING KEVLAR??????????????

PLEASE!!

[theaudiohobby]

Sigh
You said.

I hope it's MILES better than the N802 which is already in tough against several $2kCad speakers in the listenability departments for me. It needs cohesion, bass, and a smoother treble...we shall see - diamond sounds gimmicky to me - kevlar was IMO.

to which I replied

What do you know about diamond or even Kevlar... , I am okay with your criticism of the sound just not too sure why you singled out certain materials for criticism, I thought it was about the whole package.

then you replied (emphasis mine)

TAH
As for implementation of materials well I have yet to hear a speaker using a metal tweeeter from anyone I would want to own and listen to every day -- I have yet to hear a speaker using kevlar I would want to own everyday. The link from that expert yuou always posted read it over -- he'll tell you all about Kevlar. I notice because you didn;t read it close enough you never post hm anymore -- just selective if it supports your preference...

to which I replied

I do not know who you referring to, but at least you refer to him as an expert, are you? What do you know about the sound of kevlar, paper, diamond, silk and the various iterations thereof?

to which you replied

TAh you know full well who I'm referring too since you posted the link all over the net for months and months and I will look for it hard if you're afraid to post it. He is a designer and reviewer who posted all the driver properties advantages and disadvantages of each kind --Once I and John Ashman pointed out to you that he ripped Kevlar drivers and that he owns an Audio Note amplifier claimning it to be by far the worst measuring unit but by far the best sounding -- you never posted it again

to which I replied that Lynn Olsen said

I should add, by the way, that I like Kevlar and carbon-fiber drivers very
much ... but they are difficult drivers to work with, with strong resonant
signatures that must be controlled acoustically and electrically.

to which you now reply saying

you should also know that Lynn's ONLY kevlar exception is that of scanspeak not of B&W -- did you e-mail to ask which one Lynn doesn;t like -- it's B&W just so you know which of course should be obvious since at the time B&W was the ONLY major company making speakers with Kevlar...so i'm not sure you were under the impression he was obviously referring to B&W or not -- but now you know.

Hello...what is the relevance of this twaddle when I originally said

...not too sure why you singled out certain materials for criticism, I thought it was about the whole package.

Lynn said he that he liked Kevlar very much but it is difficult to work with, whether he likes or does not like B&W Kevlar implementation is another matter entirely, he clearly states that he likes Kevlar and recommends a preferred crossover design, yet you say that he trashed Kevlar Sigh....

Now to off topic issue that you raised earlier, you said

Once I and John Ashman pointed out to you that he ripped Kevlar drivers and that he owns an Audio Note amplifier claimning it to be by far the worst measuring unit but by far the best sounding -- you never posted it again

And I said that Lynn said of the LNPA 150 transistor power amp

.I have to say, though, that marked the third time I've packed up an amplifier with a genuine sense of regret (the first two were the Audio Note Ongaku and the Reichert 300B's)..

Then you said

Are you under some delusion that I believe AN is perfect or the best? That if I post a great response to an item that someone won't ever like something a bit better...The ongaku has been improved and downright changed 3 times since 1994 -- and there is the UK version which is about half the price now.

"The Ongaku, by far, had the worst THD and power measurements ... 22W at 3%
distortion. It also made the Ariel sound better than any electrostat I've
ever heard ... in fact, the best sound I'd heard in many years. It
certainly sounded better than anything I heard at the 1994 Winter CES. So
what's going on here? Maybe THD is simply measuring the wrong thing"

Hello..he listened to both amplifers between months of each other, between CES 1994 and CES 1995, more importantly he said that it challenged conventional wisdom which included amongst other things "Thou shalt use direct-heated triodes, preferably in single-ended circuits" and in that article Lynn says

One of the unsettling things about being both a reviewer and a designer is having the "conventional wisdom" knocked on its head on a regular basis....

Karna, my sweetie, was so taken by the overall quality of sound she lobbied heavily for us to buy the amps outright..and this the lady that was converted to ultra-fi by the Ongaku experience

As you can see there is only one person who is delusional here and it is you.

[RGA]

oh no people who follow your B&W love in know very well that for several months you were trying to say that Lynn was not referring to B&W when he mentioned that kevlar does not work...you try always to weasal out of it -- the ONLY kevlar driver he likes is Scanspeak -- I have no problem with Scanspeak since I have not heard its implementation -- when i refer to kevlar I refer to B&W since They use it more than everyone else. Kevlar is synonymous WITH B&W and I am Trying to tell you that Lynn thinks B&W's use of it basically SUCKS donkey balls. You kept denying that he was referring to B&W -- which is OBVIOUSLY NOT THE CASE!

And with the amps -- again you don't read very close -- he sent all three amps back. The SS amp is for SANE money he likes -- it sounds very good to him yes organic like SET yes -- Show me where he says the following "This amp blows the Ongaku and or Rechert to the weeds" Nowhere is this said nor is it even implied. The Ongaku is a $90,000US integrated amplifier -- that is not a sanely priced competitor. He can't afford the Ongaku -- it is the same reason Steven Rochlin the editor of enjoythemusic sent it back (actually he bought and had to sell it for financial reasons).