Full Review of the new B&W 800D

[theaudiohobby]

TAh you know full well who I'm referring too since you posted the link all over the net for months and months and I will look for it hard if you're afraid to post it. He is a designer and reviewer who posted all the driver properties advantages and disadvantages of each kind --Once I and John Ashman pointed out to you that he ripped Kevlar drivers and that he owns an Audio Note amplifier claimning it to be by far the worst measuring unit but by far the best sounding -- you never posted it again -- naturally because all of a sudden he didn't agree with your TASTE. His name will come to me -- indeed I can do a search on this forum since I've quoted him several times.

RGA,

Next time do your research before you post, you have scored an own goal, follow this thread and read the context of the post, John used Lynn's article to attack Kevlar. For the record, John Ashman posted that article in October 2004, a full three months before this thread started, and quoted from the article on a least one occasion before thread in question, FTR in that article, Lynn said

I should add, by the way, that I like Kevlar and carbon-fiber drivers very
much ... but they are difficult drivers to work with, with strong resonant
signatures that must be controlled acoustically and electrically.

in other words, as previously stated, it is the implementation that matters, not the actual material.

I decided not to resist posting this article by Lynn Olsen for you to mull over everytime you dream of the Ongaku, Lynn said of the LNPA 150 Class AB transistor amplifier

In comparing this amp to the latest audiophile confected unveiled at the Winter 1995 CES, I'd have to say this one is still my favorite at any kind of sane price point. It's the only transistor I've heard so far that has soul and body to the sound, with a remarkable ability to convey the emotional tone of the performance; this is the normal preserve of the direct-heated single-ended 2A3 and 300B triode, not transistors arranged in the usual complementary-symmetry topology.
So much for the conventional wisdom, eh?...

I have to say, though, that marked the third time I've packed up an amplifier with a genuine sense of regret (the first two were the Audio Note Ongaku and the Reichert 300B's)..

and that was almost ten years ago, I leave you work out the implications of his comments.

[Buzz Roll]

I'm going to try to check out a pair of these speakers at my dealer here in NYC. I'm going in with low expectations, but I'll try to supply another view on them if I can.

BTW, audiohobby, I just have to say that I just sat in on a mix session with a pair of Genelec 8030As - not bad!! I at least owe you that information.

[theaudiohobby]

thanks, Buzz Roll

[RGA]

RGA,

Next time do your research before you post, you have scored an own goal, follow this thread and read the context of the post, John used Lynn's article to attack Kevlar. For the record, John Ashman posted that article in October 2004, a full three months before this thread started, and quoted from the article on a least one occasion before thread in question, FTR in that article, Lynn said
in other words, as previously stated, it is the implementation that matters, not the actual material.

I decided not to resist posting this article by Lynn Olsen for you to mull over everytime you dream of the Ongaku, Lynn said of the LNPA 150 Class AB transistor amplifier

and that was almost ten years ago, I leave you work out the implications of his comments.

you should also know that Lynn's ONLY kevlar exception is that of scanspeak not of B&W -- did you e-mail to ask which one Lynn doesn;t like -- it's B&W just so you know which of course should be obvious since at the time B&W was the ONLY major company making speakers with Kevlar...so i'm not sure you were under the impression he was obviously referring to B&W or not -- but now you know.


Are you under some delusion that I believe AN is perfect or the best? That if I post a great response to an item that someone won't ever like something a bit better...The ongaku has been improved and downright changed 3 times since 1994 -- and there is the UK version which is about half the price now.

"The Ongaku, by far, had the worst THD and power measurements ... 22W at 3%
distortion. It also made the Ariel sound better than any electrostat I've
ever heard ... in fact, the best sound I'd heard in many years. It
certainly sounded better than anything I heard at the 1994 Winter CES. So
what's going on here? Maybe THD is simply measuring the wrong thing"

Suffice it to say it's a great amplifier which he liked more than the Reichert. The SS amp was also sent packing -- there is no indication he likes it any better than theRecihert or the ongaku the latter isn't at a sane price which is why he had to return it -- he can't afford it...not many can. So if you read what he says clearly he likes the SS amp as his favorite at a SANE price -- which means it is NOT his favorite at ANY price. Though I would be interested to hear this SS amp because very few are at all good so I'm sure he's probably right that this one is a standout.

I'm sure he can find better than the 1993-94 Ongaku --- he just needs to look up the new ones.

"From Lynn
"At the present, though, even the best Kevlar, carbon-fiber, or aluminum
designs show at least one high-Q peak at the top of the working range,
requiring a sharp crossover, a notch filter, or preferably both to control
the peak. Unfortunately, this peak usually falls in a region between 3 and
5 kHz, right where the ear is most sensitive to resonant coloration."

B&W Corssover 4khz (as many have said a BAD choice)

"There are highly-reviewed (by the large-circulation "underground"
magazines[ie B&W]) 2-way speakers that use 7" Kevlar drivers[ie B&W] crossed over to
metal-dome tweeters[ie B&W]. Technically, these loudspeakers operate with uniform
motion over the range of both drivers; in practice, though, the crossovers
are hard pressed to remove all of the energy from the Kevlar breakup region
between 3 and 5 kHz."

"The reviews of these particular 2-way speakers go on at considerable, and
amusing, length about the trials in finding an amplifier that "revealed"
the full quality of the loudspeaker. In reality, the reviewer was forced to
use an amplifier that was particularly free of coloration in the region
where the Kevlar driver was breaking up. Since most audiophiles and
reviewers are unfamilar with the direct sound (and measurements) of
commonly-used raw drivers, they can't evaluate how much "Kevlar sound", or
"aluminum sound", remains as a residue in the finished design."

"This is a problem, by the way, that plagues all [ALL means B&W] current 2-way Kevlar,
metal, or carbon-fiber loudspeakers ... at the current state of the art,
the 6.5" or 7" drivers are forced to operate right up to the edge of their
working ranges in order to meet the tweeter in a moderate-distortion
frequency range."

"If you lower the crossover frequency, tweeter IM distortion skyrockets,
resulting in raspy, distorted high frequencies at mid-to-high listening
levels; if you raise the crossover frequency, the Kevlar breakup creeps in,
resulting in a forward, aggressive sound at moderate listening levels[B&W 4khz}, and
complete breakup at high levels (unlike paper cones, Kevlar, metal, and
carbon fibers do not go into gradual breakup)."

Which is why they don;t sound very cohesive

"I should add, by the way, that I like Kevlar and carbon-fiber drivers very
much ... but they are difficult drivers to work with, with strong resonant
signatures that must be controlled acoustically and electrically."

"As mentioned above, rigid cones have advantages, but are difficult to damp
completely. A different approach is to use a cone material that is made
from a highly lossy material (traditionally, this was plastic-doped paper,
but this has been supplanted by polypropylene in most modern loudspeakers).
The cone then damps itself, progressively losing energy as the impulse from
the voice coil spreads outwards across the cone surface. The choice of
spider and surround are then much less critical.

This type of material[POLYPROLYENE] typically measures quite flat and also allows a
simple 6dB/Octave crossover; personally, though, I don't care for the sound
of most polypropylene drivers, finding them rather vague and
blurry-sounding at low-to-medium listening levels. {Read Paradigm et al} Without access to a B&K
swept IM distortion analyzer, I have to resort to guesswork, but I strongly
suspect that this type of cone has fairly high IM distortion since it is
quite soft. In addition, it is quite difficult to make a material that has
perfectly linear mechanical attenuation; in practice, distortion creeps in
when you actually want a progressive attenuation of energy over the surface
of the cone."

And back to Kevlar -

"A unique and quite desirable property of the latest Scan-Speak Kevlar
drivers is a smooth rolloff region above the usual Kevlar peak. All of the
other Kevlar drivers [ALL MEANS B&W] (that I have measured and listened to) have chaotic
breakup regions; the Scan-Speaks are the only ones [ONLY MEANS NOT B&W that appear
well-controlled in this region..."

B&W does not use Scan-Speak (Note the part ALL OF THE OTHERS).

Now do you believe that Lynn Olsen has NEVER in his life designing and reviewing has NEVER EVER HEARD A SINGLE B&W SPEAKER USING KEVLAR??????????????

PLEASE!!

[theaudiohobby]

Sigh
You said.

I hope it's MILES better than the N802 which is already in tough against several $2kCad speakers in the listenability departments for me. It needs cohesion, bass, and a smoother treble...we shall see - diamond sounds gimmicky to me - kevlar was IMO.

to which I replied

What do you know about diamond or even Kevlar... , I am okay with your criticism of the sound just not too sure why you singled out certain materials for criticism, I thought it was about the whole package.

then you replied (emphasis mine)

TAH
As for implementation of materials well I have yet to hear a speaker using a metal tweeeter from anyone I would want to own and listen to every day -- I have yet to hear a speaker using kevlar I would want to own everyday. The link from that expert yuou always posted read it over -- he'll tell you all about Kevlar. I notice because you didn;t read it close enough you never post hm anymore -- just selective if it supports your preference...

to which I replied

I do not know who you referring to, but at least you refer to him as an expert, are you? What do you know about the sound of kevlar, paper, diamond, silk and the various iterations thereof?

to which you replied

TAh you know full well who I'm referring too since you posted the link all over the net for months and months and I will look for it hard if you're afraid to post it. He is a designer and reviewer who posted all the driver properties advantages and disadvantages of each kind --Once I and John Ashman pointed out to you that he ripped Kevlar drivers and that he owns an Audio Note amplifier claimning it to be by far the worst measuring unit but by far the best sounding -- you never posted it again

to which I replied that Lynn Olsen said

I should add, by the way, that I like Kevlar and carbon-fiber drivers very
much ... but they are difficult drivers to work with, with strong resonant
signatures that must be controlled acoustically and electrically.

to which you now reply saying

you should also know that Lynn's ONLY kevlar exception is that of scanspeak not of B&W -- did you e-mail to ask which one Lynn doesn;t like -- it's B&W just so you know which of course should be obvious since at the time B&W was the ONLY major company making speakers with Kevlar...so i'm not sure you were under the impression he was obviously referring to B&W or not -- but now you know.

Hello...what is the relevance of this twaddle when I originally said

...not too sure why you singled out certain materials for criticism, I thought it was about the whole package.

Lynn said he that he liked Kevlar very much but it is difficult to work with, whether he likes or does not like B&W Kevlar implementation is another matter entirely, he clearly states that he likes Kevlar and recommends a preferred crossover design, yet you say that he trashed Kevlar Sigh....

Now to off topic issue that you raised earlier, you said

Once I and John Ashman pointed out to you that he ripped Kevlar drivers and that he owns an Audio Note amplifier claimning it to be by far the worst measuring unit but by far the best sounding -- you never posted it again

And I said that Lynn said of the LNPA 150 transistor power amp

.I have to say, though, that marked the third time I've packed up an amplifier with a genuine sense of regret (the first two were the Audio Note Ongaku and the Reichert 300B's)..

Then you said

Are you under some delusion that I believe AN is perfect or the best? That if I post a great response to an item that someone won't ever like something a bit better...The ongaku has been improved and downright changed 3 times since 1994 -- and there is the UK version which is about half the price now.

"The Ongaku, by far, had the worst THD and power measurements ... 22W at 3%
distortion. It also made the Ariel sound better than any electrostat I've
ever heard ... in fact, the best sound I'd heard in many years. It
certainly sounded better than anything I heard at the 1994 Winter CES. So
what's going on here? Maybe THD is simply measuring the wrong thing"

Hello..he listened to both amplifers between months of each other, between CES 1994 and CES 1995, more importantly he said that it challenged conventional wisdom which included amongst other things "Thou shalt use direct-heated triodes, preferably in single-ended circuits" and in that article Lynn says

One of the unsettling things about being both a reviewer and a designer is having the "conventional wisdom" knocked on its head on a regular basis....

Karna, my sweetie, was so taken by the overall quality of sound she lobbied heavily for us to buy the amps outright..and this the lady that was converted to ultra-fi by the Ongaku experience

As you can see there is only one person who is delusional here and it is you.

[RGA]

oh no people who follow your B&W love in know very well that for several months you were trying to say that Lynn was not referring to B&W when he mentioned that kevlar does not work...you try always to weasal out of it -- the ONLY kevlar driver he likes is Scanspeak -- I have no problem with Scanspeak since I have not heard its implementation -- when i refer to kevlar I refer to B&W since They use it more than everyone else. Kevlar is synonymous WITH B&W and I am Trying to tell you that Lynn thinks B&W's use of it basically SUCKS donkey balls. You kept denying that he was referring to B&W -- which is OBVIOUSLY NOT THE CASE!

And with the amps -- again you don't read very close -- he sent all three amps back. The SS amp is for SANE money he likes -- it sounds very good to him yes organic like SET yes -- Show me where he says the following "This amp blows the Ongaku and or Rechert to the weeds" Nowhere is this said nor is it even implied. The Ongaku is a $90,000US integrated amplifier -- that is not a sanely priced competitor. He can't afford the Ongaku -- it is the same reason Steven Rochlin the editor of enjoythemusic sent it back (actually he bought and had to sell it for financial reasons).

[Florian]

I have to agree, B&W is just a huge marketing gimmik company and its going towards the BOSE direction when it comes to marketing and being overprized. Kevlar, Diamond tweeter are materials that the typical joeblow says "wow" too and thats why they use it. Look at the HE2005, B&W had the hugest showroom floors and use a 5xNautilus 801 setup with life music. I can tell you, it sucked !! The dealers get like freaking 60% off plus deliverly to their door. They are the most easiest to sell speakers there are, and also the most overprized. My speakers use wood and aluminum foil, you find your sandwhich rapped with and i am not afraid of comparing test to a Nautilus Presitige or any other speaker for that matter.

-Flo

[theaudiohobby]

oh no people who follow your B&W love in know very well that for several months you were trying to say that Lynn was not referring to B&W when he mentioned that kevlar does not work...you try always to weasal out of it -- the ONLY kevlar driver he likes is Scanspeak -- I have no problem with Scanspeak since I have not heard its implementation -- when i refer to kevlar I refer to B&W since They use it more than everyone else. Kevlar is synonymous WITH B&W and I am Trying to tell you that Lynn thinks B&W's use of it basically SUCKS donkey balls. You kept denying that he was referring to B&W -- which is OBVIOUSLY NOT THE CASE!

most of what of you just said is irrelevant trivia, however

• Now you say that "I have no problem with Scanspeak since I have not heard its implementation -- when i refer to kevlar I refer to B&W" showing that your original comments on Kevlar sound was a pointless and wrong generalisation.
  
• Also YOU ARE WERE WRONG in your assessment of Lynn Olsen overall opinion of Kevlar and your comments so far show that you know next to nothing about the sound of various driver materials.
  
• If you are interested in discussing various kevlar implementations in detail, start a new thread. Secondly, Olsen did not explicitly mention B&W, so your conclusion is only suggestive.

And with the amps -- again you don't read very close -- he sent all three amps back. The SS amp is for SANE money he likes -- it sounds very good to him yes organic like SET yes -- Show me where he says the following "This amp blows the Ongaku and or Rechert to the weeds" Nowhere is this said nor is it even implied. The Ongaku is a $90,000US integrated amplifier -- that is not a sanely priced competitor. He can't afford the Ongaku -- it is the same reason Steven Rochlin the editor of enjoythemusic sent it back (actually he bought and had to sell it for financial reasons).

Another piece of irrelevant trivia? Did I suggest at anytime that he preferred the SS amplifier to the Ongaku? Olsen explicitly stated that a particular Class AB transistor amplifier with negative feedback (sacriledge? ) possessed the organic qualities that he always thought were the exclusive preserve of the best SET amplifcation, at a fraction of the price of the Ongaku.He goes as far as saying that he prefers this particular amplifier to ANY other amplifier in that price category. Ponder the implications.

As I said earlier, there is only one person here who is delusional (and probably insecure), and it is you.

[RGA]

HAHAHA -- still believe he's not talking about B&W.

E-mail him

Ongaku has been reviewed by Dick Olsher, Alvin Gold, Jonathan Kettle, Mike Kuller, Lynn Olsen and many others - the only non-perfect aspect of the ONGAKU that any of them could find was that they couldn't afford it!

Frankly it's overpriced no matter what it sounds like -- and as I have said many many times -- and should have said it earlier -- who the hell cares what these people think -- unless you agree with them -- you obviously would buy a B&W speaker -- LYNN based on what is available at this moment in time would not. So right there you are not the same as him and neither am I.

Lynn
"I'd rather have less distortion in the forward path than clean up the mess afterward with feedback."

http://db.audioasylum.com/cgi/m.mpl?...on&r=&session=

"As for myself, I like the sound of my own speakers (or whatever I'm currently modifying), and all-trans-coupled Class A PP DHT's. Commercially-available high-end audio leaves me cold, so I design to my own preferences, and publish as I go. You're lucky you've heard commercially available equipment that appeals to you; for me, that is so extremely rare I don't even try emulating the handful of equipment I've liked in the last decade or so. I like the original Reichert SE-300B Silver, Ongaku and WAVAC HE-833, but have no intention of designing or building anything remotely similar.

I enjoy meeting the original designers (not the marketers!) at trade shows and finding out their design priorities and the way they solve problems. The only part of the CES I enjoy is the designer-meets; the sonics at that show almost always drive me out of the room immediately. I guess my tastes have diverged so far from the Stereophile/Absolute Sound high-end mainstream that I have to find my own way now." September 2003

Guess he'd hate your amplifier and mine and the Naim you rave about so why quote people who don't hear it like you? Sure he doesn't like much.

"Strengths? Startling transparency, spatial qualities, and reverb tails that fade ever so gradually into the deep velvet blackness. This is Ongaku-grade performance, about as good as it gets. You *will* hear what your source is doing. The 47's sound very much like 45's, which is a good thing."

Pretty much every amp he talks about is references back to a handful of amplifiers of which one is the Ongaku -- there is no doubt that he considers it ONE OF, which does not mean the only, best amplifiers available -- to which I say "It bloody well OUGHTA be for that kind of coin."

[theaudiohobby]

Sigh.....yet more irrelevance Sigh...and that from someone who said a few posts ago

Are you under some delusion that I believe AN is perfect or the best?

even your Olsen link is off-topic, LOL , do you understand the meaning of context at all?

I do not care who Olsen is referring to nor in any of his innuendo, it is irrelevant to this sub thread, read some excerpts from some of your original posts

we shall see - diamond sounds gimmicky to me - kevlar was IMO. ?

and

-- I have yet to hear a speaker using kevlar I would want to own everyday. The link from that expert you always posted read it over -- he'll tell you all about Kevlar. ?

and now

...and as I have said many many times -- and should have said it earlier -- who the hell cares what these people think -- unless you agree with them...

and even

Guess he'd hate your amplifier and mine and the Naim you rave about so why quote people who don't hear it like you? Sure he doesn't like much.

Get a grip, you brought Lynn Olsen into the equation , call me when you have finished concocting and twisting .