Exactly what did I buy? (Paradigm question)

[slmcdonald7]

Hi all,
Recently I purchased a pair of the Paradigm Monitor 11's. When I listened to them in the store, they sounded great, and IMO, they still do. However, their 3 bass drivers make them look like they would put out absolutely thunderous sound, which is not exactly the case. I have them bi-amped with the Denon 3805, so they should be getting plenty of power, but those bass drivers don't give me the response I would expect by looking.

I know this is a rather ignorant question, but if not for bass, what are these bass drivers supposed to produce? They're functioning properly, so that's not the problem, they just put out a very tepid low end response. The Monitor 9's have a lower frequency extension (8" woofers as opposed to 6-1/2" on the 11's), so what exactly did I pay for by getting the 11's? I like the "punchier" sound I get from the smaller diameter drivers (which is why I didn't go with the 9's), but could someone please explain what these bass drivers are supposed to add to the sound I get from these speakers? With a sub, my system sounds great, but, did I waste my money by not just going with the 7's? I am afraid of the answer to this question, but I will pose it none-the-less.

Any and all input is apprecieated.

-Stephen

[N. Abstentia]

Sounds like you have them wired out of phase, check your wiring.

[slmcdonald7]

I am a novice at all things technical. Could you explain to me what it means that I have them wired out of phase and how I could correct this?

Thanks,
Stephen

[N. Abstentia]

Make 100% sure you have all the + speaker wires going to the + speaker terminals, and all the - speaker wires going to the - terminals. Swapping one of them will cause what you're describing.

[slmcdonald7]

N.Abstentia (great name by the way),

I am 100% sure that my wiring is correct (I just double checked it). Any other ideas?

Thanks,
Stephen

[N. Abstentia]

Well the low freqency extention of the Monitor 7, 9, and 11 are all within 2 db of each other so you probably won't hear a difference in that aspect. The Monitor 11's handle quite a bit more power and sound much more dynamic than the 9's or 7's because the mid driver is not having to do all the bass duties.

Now when you say they don't produce thuderous bass, what exactly do you mean? Keep in mind that they will never come close to doing what a dedicated powered subwoofer can do, you won't get that from any floorstander powered by a receiver. You should be getting some nice tight bass, especially in drum heavy music. What exactly are you playing that does not sound right?

[topspeed]

Hi all,
Recently I purchased a pair of the Paradigm Monitor 11's. When I listened to them in the store, they sounded great, and IMO, they still do. However, their 3 bass drivers make them look like they would put out absolutely thunderous sound, which is not exactly the case. I have them bi-amped with the Denon 3805, so they should be getting plenty of power, but those bass drivers don't give me the response I would expect by looking.

Welcome to the wonderful world of room acoustics. Your room (as opposed to the dealer's) could very well have some weird nodes that are simply working against you right now. Check your placement and tweak that a bit. You can get some bass reinforcement by simply moving your speakers closer to the corners. The downside is you may also get some boominess. Look around and see how your furnishings are set up. If you'd like some ideas about room acoustics and treatments, just do a search on this site and you'll get all you need.

Hope this helps.

[slmcdonald7]

My listening habits:
Exclusively two channel stereo. I watch some movies, but haven't bothered to hook up surround speakers.
I listen to a little of everything (sans country). That being said...

I don't expect subwoofer level bass, but when I run these without a sub, I listen to them and think "wow, these sound WAY smaller than they look". The highs and mids are great, but those bass drivers don't put out any really noticeable sound. I have taken off the grills and put my ear up to the bass drivers and felt them to make sure they were actually working more times than I would like to admit. This dissapointing sound is consistent, regardless of what type of music I am playing. I ran a pair of Paradigm Phantoms (v.3)before these, and the bass put out by those is comperable to what I am getting from my 11's. At your suggestion, I just listened to a very drum heavy track (one of Jimmy Chamberlin's finest) without the sub on, and had to turn it off because it sounded so bad. The bass is not tight and dynamic, it's not even there.
I have adjusted and readjusted every conceiveable setting on my 3805 to try and rectify the problem. Using the main fronts and surround A outputs to bi-amp, I have set both speaker settings to small or large, manually tinkered with the eq, and changed the db output countless times, and nothing helps.
I feel like a f***ing idiot for not just buying the Studio 40's, but since I am stuck with these I just wish I could listen to them and not feel dissapointed.
If I were to switch the + and - wires for the bass drivers on the back of the speakers (just to try something new), would I run the risk of hurting them?
Any other ideas?

Topspeed:
Good idea, and I would move my speakers and furniture around in a heartbeat if I hadn't had my Phantoms set up in the exact same position without running into this probelm. Thanks all the same though...

So, do my speakers just suck?

Thanks for your help,
Stephen

[BillB]

Be patient and take the time to experiment with placement as suggested, it can yield huge dividends.

You can also try taking a frequency response sweep with a Radio Shack sound level meter and a good test CD like Rives Audio's Test CD 2. Set your fronts to LARGE, SUB to NO and see just how low they're playing.

It could very well be that your sub is juiced a bit high and you're used to it's bass. While they're not going to go down as low as a good sub they shouldn't sound like a pair of tandmount speakers either.

If you're accustomed to boomy bass like that found in the car stereo world it will take some time to adjust to flatter more accurate bass.

Bill

[N. Abstentia]

It really sounds like they are out of phase.

Also, you say you are using the A outputs and a surround output to bi-amp? Not sure if that's the best thing to do, as it's all the same amp anyway. Keep in mind that whatever is hooked to your surround output will probably have all bass frequencies cut, I'm assuming that goes to the mid/tweet section.

I would wire them just straight to the A channel and see how that works. You can't truly bi-amp with a receiver anyway.

[topspeed]

You can't truly bi-amp with a receiver anyway.

You can, it's just an amazing waste of time. There was a huge debate over on avsforum regarding this exact topic: biamping using the 3805. Some website was extolling the virtues of this technique and obviously confusing it with bridging. Kal Rubinson and others (including yours truly) argued the difference would likely be inaudible if not detrimental. Besides the fact that you are using the same power supply (Congratulations! You just reduced the effective power of each channel being driven ), the only time bi-amping makes any sense is if you are using different amps for each section, usually ss for the bass and tubes for the mids/highs. Using the same amp for both? Uhh, OK. Whatever makes you happy I 'spose.

[N. Abstentia]

Yeah that's what I meant by not 'truly' biamping. If you're not using two seperate amps (or a dual mono in one chassis) then you're not bi-amping. Besides, one big reason to bi-amp is to bypass the crippled amp in a receiver..so like you said it's a colossal waste of time. Plus without using an electronic crossover and bypassing the passive crossovers, I don't feel it worth it.

[slmcdonald7]

I really, really don't want to get into a debate about whether one can effectively bi-amp the 3805 (Denon tech support said "yes" when I called them, other very knowledgable people say no... the fact is that people who know way more than I do about this are undecided, so I won't assert my opinion one way or the other ).

Even if bi-amping isn't helping me any, it can't be hurting my system to the point where it is would cause my bass drivers to sound like crap right?

How should my bass drivers sound? They should provide some type of noticeable bottom end right? It's not that I'm used to some ghetto-fied super sub-ed out car system (it's stock, I promise), I just think that these should be providing me with some sort of balanced sound, but they aren't. So, what exactly are these bass drivers supposed to do? Did I just waste my money on a pair of speakers that look like they should sound provide punchy bass, but are too busy sounding like crap to do so?

[N. Abstentia]

Well you said it yourself, they sounded phenomenal in the store. So what's different about the store and your house? Room acoustics, equipment, wiring. It's got to be one of those.

Do the 11's actually produce LESS bass than the Phantoms? I wouldn't expect them to do more, but they should not do less.

Did you undo the 'bi-amp' stuff and just hook them straight to your A channel?

[topspeed]

Even if bi-amping isn't helping me any, it can't be hurting my system to the point where it is would cause my bass drivers to sound like crap right?

Technically, you're right. Have you tried N's suggestion of running the speakers with only the "A" channels? Don't forget to replace your jumpers. See what happens then.

How should my bass drivers sound? They should provide some type of noticeable bottom end right? It's not that I'm used to some ghetto-fied super sub-ed out car system (it's stock, I promise), I just think that these should be providing me with some sort of balanced sound, but they aren't. So, what exactly are these bass drivers supposed to do? Did I just waste my money on a pair of speakers that look like they should sound provide punchy bass, but are too busy sounding like crap to do so?

Look, my Missions have dual 8" woofers and still won't blow you out the door with bass. I have no idea how your speakers are suppossed to sound in your room. If you're sure you have a problem, have you considered having your dealer lend you another pair just to make sure it's not your speakers? If it's not the speakers and it's not the amp, have you checked your settings on you source player? If all else fails, return 'em. If you can't, chalk it up as a life lesson and next time, try to do a home demo.

[This Guy]

umm, maybe the speakers are still set a small when you turn the sub off. Make sure they're set as "large" when you're not using the sub.

[ToddB]

Two questions:

Does your dealer have a return period, and have you exceeded it, even if it's only for a trade to another model?

Can you guesstimate how many hours of playing time you have on the Monitor 11?

[cam]

To your original question, To me you wasted your money on the 11's. I auditioned all the monitors and I ended up buying the 7's. It would have been $200 more for the 9's and another $200 more for the 11's. All three of these speakers are within a couple of db's so you can see the waste of money you are wasting on the 9's or 11's over the 7's. If you were not going to stop at the 7's your money would have been better spent on the studio 20's or 40's. Now all five of these speakers I have mentioned are going to have to be complimented with a sub anyways so you can see that the 9's and 11's are not worth the extra $. This does not mean the 9's and 11's are no good, it just means that they are not worth the extra $. When I broke my speakers in, about the 5-10 hour mark the woofers really started thumping lower and lower. I even tricked my wife into thinking the sub was on when it wasn't. My 7's hit low but for my tastes, not low enough. I need my sub on aswell. In the past I have taken paradigm speakers back and I had no problem getting my money back. I went 6.1 once so I got a center rear, I did not like it so I returned them and got two center rear speakers, I did not like that either so they gave me my money back. But also I have bought alot of paradigms in the past so I do get treated good. I know of the bi-amping feature on your 3805 but just so you know that something isn't wired backwards, just hook them up directly the normal way and also do not bi-wire either. Make sure you put your jumpers back on. If they don't start to pound and you have fiddled with the placement, I would take them back and tell them you are very dissapointed with the bass performence and you would like to get the 7's, 20's or 40's. With the 20's and 40's you will have the added cost of stands. When you do listen to the 11's again make sure you listen to them in pure direct.

[Jimmy C]

Hi all,
Recently I purchased a pair of the Paradigm Monitor 11's. When I listened to them in the store, they sounded great, and IMO, they still do. However, their 3 bass drivers make them look like they would put out absolutely thunderous sound, which is not exactly the case. I have them bi-amped with the Denon 3805, so they should be getting plenty of power, but those bass drivers don't give me the response I would expect by looking.

I know this is a rather ignorant question, but if not for bass, what are these bass drivers supposed to produce? They're functioning properly, so that's not the problem, they just put out a very tepid low end response. The Monitor 9's have a lower frequency extension (8" woofers as opposed to 6-1/2" on the 11's), so what exactly did I pay for by getting the 11's? I like the "punchier" sound I get from the smaller diameter drivers (which is why I didn't go with the 9's), but could someone please explain what these bass drivers are supposed to add to the sound I get from these speakers? With a sub, my system sounds great, but, did I waste my money by not just going with the 7's? I am afraid of the answer to this question, but I will pose it none-the-less.

Any and all input is apprecieated.

-Stephen

...went with a pair of Monitor 11s. We listened to a few other stand-mounts and floor-standers in the sub-$1K range, but he's a bit of a "horsepower" or "numbers" kinda guy... if you get the idea. What are you getting over the 7s or 9s? A Hell of a lot tighter bass. Side-by-side in the store, there is no comparison. DEEPER? Probably not too much.

You are also getting a dedicated midrange (instead of a 2 or 2.5-way... forgot which). This isn't always beneficial, but his set-up sounds decent with a V.P.I. Scout/Grado Platinum or cheap Sony CDP >> Rotel's new pre >> pr. of Dynaco tubed monoblocks or monster Rotel amp. You might also consider the amount of room between your listening position and the speakers... that's a lotta drivers to gel. Tell ya what... the Dyns don't have the Rotel's 380 WPC, but they sound pretty damn good! Amazing - I told him... the Paradigms are efficient! Ah, well... whatever...

I have a pair of Studio 60s, and I don't think his bass is any deeper... it MIGHT be, but I can "feel" mine as much as his. To be fair, my room is smaller (bedroom vs. his livingroom).

Well, hopefully you can work it out... as others have said, play with positioning. The 11s definitely don't dig TOO deep, but you should feel at least "satisfied" in the bass department.

Good luck, and let the forum know what transpires!

[Geoffcin]

I am a novice at all things technical. Could you explain to me what it means that I have them wired out of phase and how I could correct this?

Thanks,
Stephen

And start from scratch. You want to make absolutely sure that the problem isn't something simple. Check you speaker cables for polarity, and that they haven't been pinched in any way. Set the speakers up with one wire, save biwiring for later. Make sure the jumper is correctly placed, and everything has good contact.

A question;

Are these the EXACT speakers you heard? If so, are you sure that there wasn't any bass boost used when they were demoed? If not, then they could be defective, although that possibility is very slim.

Another possibility is that your used to a speaker with a "mid-bass hump" These speakers (and there are a lot of them) have a boost in the 80-120hz range. This gives a false feeling of "good bass" even though the speakers response in the 25-60hz range may be nonexistent. Accurate speakers do not sound bass heavy, even though they may be capable of huge quantities of it.

That being said, it sounds like these speakers might not be your cup-o-tea. If so, see if your dealer will give you credit toward another pair of different ones.

Good luck!

[slmcdonald7]

Thank you all for the fantastic input.

With all of the questions posed, forgive me if I don't answer them all...

Later this week, when I have more time, I will disconnect everything and start from scratch. Knowing me, it's very likely something got screwed up in my excited haste to hook up my new system . Good advice.

As far as break-in time is concerned, I can say with absolute certainty that these have gotten well over 60 to 100 hours of use since I bought them a few weeks ago, so I don't think that this is an issue in my case.

I will check on dealer return policies, but I will give these one more go before giving up. The nearest (decent) audio store is about an hour and a half away, so it's a bit of a time committment to get down there, thus (unfortunately) demo-ing speakers is impossible.

In my frustration, I may have exaggerated the comparison on bass output with my Phantoms just a little. I doubt that the 11's put out less bass, but by looking one might think that they should put out more. I suppose that you can't judge a speaker by how it looks though . However, it could be that they created false impression of bass with the 'mid bass hump' (what an interesting idea). All the same, my initial representation was a little inaccurate.

Oh... and "ThisGuy", if you had posted just 11 minutes later, it would have been much fitting

[N. Abstentia]

Yeah the multiple drivers are there to provide accuracy and loudness, not depth. You've now got 6 woofers each working at a fraction of their capability instead of 2 woofers working near their physical limit. You also have dedicated mids instead of trying to make the woofers produce bass and midrange all at the same time. If you'll notice, the entire range of floorstanders have about the same low frequency limit. But the 11's will do it cleaner and allow you to play them louder because of mulitple drivers.

[slmcdonald7]

Very well put. That answers my original question of what exactly my bass drivers should be doing. Thanks.

[cam]

Yeah the multiple drivers are there to provide accuracy and loudness, not depth. You've now got 6 woofers each working at a fraction of their capability instead of 2 woofers working near their physical limit. You also have dedicated mids instead of trying to make the woofers produce bass and midrange all at the same time. If you'll notice, the entire range of floorstanders have about the same low frequency limit. But the 11's will do it cleaner and allow you to play them louder because of mulitple drivers.

I agree if you are listening to 2-channel music full range. But there is absolutely no advantage having the 11's, crossd over at 80hz, over the 7's or 9's in a home theater system. And I think you are wrong about the dedicated midrange woofer with the 11's. I believe it to is a 2.5 way set up. You maybe mistaking it for the 100's.

[Motoracer5]

the 11's are far more transparent(at least to my ears) than the rest of the monitor series. Maybe try a dedicated power apm (Adcom, Rotel, ATI) or something similar. The recievers dont seems to have the balls to contol the 11's. a good CDP can help too