Exactly what did I buy? (Paradigm question)

[N. Abstentia]

Yeah the multiple drivers are there to provide accuracy and loudness, not depth. You've now got 6 woofers each working at a fraction of their capability instead of 2 woofers working near their physical limit. You also have dedicated mids instead of trying to make the woofers produce bass and midrange all at the same time. If you'll notice, the entire range of floorstanders have about the same low frequency limit. But the 11's will do it cleaner and allow you to play them louder because of mulitple drivers.

[slmcdonald7]

Very well put. That answers my original question of what exactly my bass drivers should be doing. Thanks.

[cam]

Yeah the multiple drivers are there to provide accuracy and loudness, not depth. You've now got 6 woofers each working at a fraction of their capability instead of 2 woofers working near their physical limit. You also have dedicated mids instead of trying to make the woofers produce bass and midrange all at the same time. If you'll notice, the entire range of floorstanders have about the same low frequency limit. But the 11's will do it cleaner and allow you to play them louder because of mulitple drivers.

I agree if you are listening to 2-channel music full range. But there is absolutely no advantage having the 11's, crossd over at 80hz, over the 7's or 9's in a home theater system. And I think you are wrong about the dedicated midrange woofer with the 11's. I believe it to is a 2.5 way set up. You maybe mistaking it for the 100's.

[Motoracer5]

the 11's are far more transparent(at least to my ears) than the rest of the monitor series. Maybe try a dedicated power apm (Adcom, Rotel, ATI) or something similar. The recievers dont seems to have the balls to contol the 11's. a good CDP can help too

[RGA]

More drivers and bigger drivers don't necessarily add up to more bass. It is not unheard of - in fact it is usually the case for me - that the flagship "so-called" speaker in a given companies line-up is usually not the best speaker in that line-up sound wise. The AN E - the bigger brother to my speaker puts out more bass depth than ANY Paradigm speaker currently sold and has just one 8 inch driver - and what is more fascinating is that even with Bass heavy music at high volume level you won't see the woofer move much if at all. Read this for a discussion about some bass issues http://www.audioasylum.com/cgi/m.pl?...70755&review=1

By the way I liked the Monitor 9 from the little i heard of it much more than the 5 or the 7. They are a weird company who seems to be very hit an miss - kind of reminds me a bit of Rotel.

Nothing is perfect - but if you absolutely end up having to buy a sub - then I would go with the Monitor 3 and add on the sub - that is if you must stay with paradigm. Also why not look at some used speakers - perhaps your dealer might have somthing you might find impressive - the Dynaudio Audience 82 if i was to look at a sanely priced Floorstander that sounds quite good would be my pick and should not really need a sub either.

[Woochifer]

More drivers and bigger drivers don't necessarily add up to more bass. It is not unheard of - in fact it is usually the case for me - that the flagship "so-called" speaker in a given companies line-up is usually not the best speaker in that line-up sound wise. The AN E - the bigger brother to my speaker puts out more bass depth than ANY Paradigm speaker currently sold and has just one 8 inch driver - and what is more fascinating is that even with Bass heavy music at high volume level you won't see the woofer move much if at all. Read this for a discussion about some bass issues http://www.audioasylum.com/cgi/m.pl?...70755&review=1

Was this comparison done in the same room with both speakers in the same position? You've always said that the ANs are designed for corner placement, which of course will give a substantially different in-room response in the low frequencies than a speaker placed midway along the front wall. Corner placement maximizes bass reinforcement, but it's also the least consistent in terms of how even and balanced the bass sounds. Unless all of your comparisons were done with all the speakers in the corner, or all midway along the front wall, then you cannot say that the AN puts out more "bass depth" than ANY Paradigm speaker.

Also, the lack of woofer movement has absolutely NOTHING to do with the performance or bass extension, if you know how ported speakers actually work. As you get closer to the tuned port frequency, the drivers actually move LESS because back pressure from the enclosure gets completely released through the port at the tuned frequency. If the sound is below the tuned frequency, then the cone movement is extreme (this is typically referrred to as "unloading") and totally uncontrolled because the back pressure that dampens the cone movement above the tuned frequency is no longer there. If you don't ever see the cone move on a ported speaker then either your source material does not have bass notes that go below the tuned frequency, or the speaker has a subsonic filter built into the crossover. A woofer that does not move is not some sign of superior design or even anything unusual, it's just something that occurs with ALL ported speakers as the sound gets close to the tuned frequency.

[N. Abstentia]

[QUOTE=RGA]The AN E - the bigger brother to my speaker puts out more bass depth than ANY Paradigm speaker currently sold and has just one 8 inch driver - and what is more fascinating is that even with Bass heavy music at high volume level you won't see the woofer move much if at all.

[QUOTE]

I'm not sure how you came to that conclusion, there is no mention of Paradigm at all in that 'review' you linked to.

Besides, even if that were true, you could buy a top notch set of Paradigms and a dedicated subwoofer for less than the AN E's and you'd have some serious LFE going on. No matter what AN says on their website, you can't order an off the shelf driver, slap it in a square box, and defy every law of physics ever written.

One 8 inch passive driver can never outperform a dedicated subwoofer.

Last time I checked, the more air you move, the more low frequency you have. An 8 inch speaker that does not move is not going to give you much low freqency.

You don't seem to be helping Audio Note sell speakers with your bantering, in fact quite the opposite. I'd never heard of Audio Note until all this came about, and they seem like a jackass company to me. They buy their drivers off the shelf, and their enclosures look like they are straight out of the 70's. I'm glad you like them, but you're not converting anyone over.

There I said it. Got it off my chest. Feel better now.

[RGA]

Yes the issue of bass has been discussed on Audio Note enough on other forums. The AN E and J offer full range performance -they look like something out of the 70s because --- well --- they are in a way. They're actually out of the 1940s.

Audio Note designs their speakers for corner use for reasons other than just bass depth - though it helps. The speakers are rear ported and typically not suited for corner placement - there are a lot of things that supposedly should not happen which does happen with their speakers. The speaker measure 16hz-18hz -6db(depending which ones) (22hz -3db) with usable response to 12hz ~(-10db).

The issue of corner placement is spurious because the speaker was designed to sound best in a corner so that is where they are meant to be put. You can easily get bass depth from OTHER speakers by putting them in a corner but the sound wwould be horrible which is why you don't do that.

You compare speakers by placing them in their "designed" position. The AN's typically do better in measurements than their own site suggests. Supposedly to get that bass they would have to seriously lose sensitivity - but yet they gain sensitivity over the others as well. Superior design by superior designers with 60 years of improving it.

My issue is why can't the rest give you more than acceptable bass when their woofer systems equate to TWO plus 6.5 woofers after all that is up to 13 inches and SHOULD give way more bass than a single 8. Or the B&W N801 with an 8 and a 15 should too but doesn't.

And it's not just about bass depth and bass loudness - but having only heard these kinds of speakers I guess you won't know what you're missing until you hear it. 2 years ago though I was in that boat too.

I don't want to railroad the thread just pointing out the issue associated with driver size, quantity of drivers and bass to have exceptions to the supposed rules. The woofers in the J and E are set-up not to work like pistons or long throw designs. I see the woofers moving on B&W and Paradigms at moderate volumes with discs I don't see happend from AN's. Though that of course may have to do with as Wooch notes as the port frequency which would may be significantly lower ~29hz according to the Martin Colloms review with 17hz -6db

Again not to railroad the thread I only wanted to get to the issue of the driver = bass extension thing because the speakers cost a lot of money as does quality bass no matter how you want to arrive at it. But to note that a lot of folks buy a speaker and then want a sub later because they are uhappy with the bass - bbig companies could have offerred a lot more bass the first time around - but then they might not sell you another box later if you were happy with the speaker fully in the first place - good way to keep selling though.

[N. Abstentia]

I dunno, I'm not to impressed with this commentary about Audio Notes room at the 2004 CES...keep in mind this room was designed by AN techs, and the equipment was hand picked by them:

"We felt the smallish, monitor speakers used once again limited the body and dynamics and even the warmth of the sound in this room."

Looks like AN isn't perfect after all.

That's why I prefer mulitple drivers working together instead of one small one working it's arse off trying to do everything. All dynamics are lost.

Here's the page, do a 'find on page' for the word kondo and you'll see it.
http://www.audiofederation.com/catal...y-2004/report/

[brulaha]

I think you need more power to really get more bass. And as others here have said in the past, 10 - 20 watts will not due it. I have a pair of the studio 60's. I was always a bit disappointed with the bass as well. They always sounded thin when I turned the volume above -20 db. They seemed to have a lot of bass when play softly, but it disappeared when turned up, and not at earth shattering volumes mind you. The same was true of the treble however. It would start to sound shrill when turned up too loud. However I assumed it was because I was powering it with a 85 watt amp. I bought a 250-watt amp, and wahlla, huge enormous bass and much smoother treble. So much so I had to readjust my sub woofer. My recommendation is to get a bigger amp. That being said, I think the studio series far out performs the monitor series. If I were you, I'd trade in the monitor 11's for a pair of studio 40's or 60's and eventually get a dedicated amp when you want to spend the extra dough. Just my 2 cents...

BTW, paradigms web site lists the monitor 11 as a 2 ½ way speaker, as a previous poster had mentioned.