Exactly what did I buy? (Paradigm question)

[slmcdonald7]

Hi all,
Recently I purchased a pair of the Paradigm Monitor 11's. When I listened to them in the store, they sounded great, and IMO, they still do. However, their 3 bass drivers make them look like they would put out absolutely thunderous sound, which is not exactly the case. I have them bi-amped with the Denon 3805, so they should be getting plenty of power, but those bass drivers don't give me the response I would expect by looking.

I know this is a rather ignorant question, but if not for bass, what are these bass drivers supposed to produce? They're functioning properly, so that's not the problem, they just put out a very tepid low end response. The Monitor 9's have a lower frequency extension (8" woofers as opposed to 6-1/2" on the 11's), so what exactly did I pay for by getting the 11's? I like the "punchier" sound I get from the smaller diameter drivers (which is why I didn't go with the 9's), but could someone please explain what these bass drivers are supposed to add to the sound I get from these speakers? With a sub, my system sounds great, but, did I waste my money by not just going with the 7's? I am afraid of the answer to this question, but I will pose it none-the-less.

Any and all input is apprecieated.

-Stephen

[N. Abstentia]

Sounds like you have them wired out of phase, check your wiring.

[slmcdonald7]

I am a novice at all things technical. Could you explain to me what it means that I have them wired out of phase and how I could correct this?

Thanks,
Stephen

[N. Abstentia]

Make 100% sure you have all the + speaker wires going to the + speaker terminals, and all the - speaker wires going to the - terminals. Swapping one of them will cause what you're describing.

[slmcdonald7]

N.Abstentia (great name by the way),

I am 100% sure that my wiring is correct (I just double checked it). Any other ideas?

Thanks,
Stephen

[N. Abstentia]

Well the low freqency extention of the Monitor 7, 9, and 11 are all within 2 db of each other so you probably won't hear a difference in that aspect. The Monitor 11's handle quite a bit more power and sound much more dynamic than the 9's or 7's because the mid driver is not having to do all the bass duties.

Now when you say they don't produce thuderous bass, what exactly do you mean? Keep in mind that they will never come close to doing what a dedicated powered subwoofer can do, you won't get that from any floorstander powered by a receiver. You should be getting some nice tight bass, especially in drum heavy music. What exactly are you playing that does not sound right?

[Geoffcin]

I am a novice at all things technical. Could you explain to me what it means that I have them wired out of phase and how I could correct this?

Thanks,
Stephen

And start from scratch. You want to make absolutely sure that the problem isn't something simple. Check you speaker cables for polarity, and that they haven't been pinched in any way. Set the speakers up with one wire, save biwiring for later. Make sure the jumper is correctly placed, and everything has good contact.

A question;

Are these the EXACT speakers you heard? If so, are you sure that there wasn't any bass boost used when they were demoed? If not, then they could be defective, although that possibility is very slim.

Another possibility is that your used to a speaker with a "mid-bass hump" These speakers (and there are a lot of them) have a boost in the 80-120hz range. This gives a false feeling of "good bass" even though the speakers response in the 25-60hz range may be nonexistent. Accurate speakers do not sound bass heavy, even though they may be capable of huge quantities of it.

That being said, it sounds like these speakers might not be your cup-o-tea. If so, see if your dealer will give you credit toward another pair of different ones.

Good luck!

[slmcdonald7]

Thank you all for the fantastic input.

With all of the questions posed, forgive me if I don't answer them all...

Later this week, when I have more time, I will disconnect everything and start from scratch. Knowing me, it's very likely something got screwed up in my excited haste to hook up my new system . Good advice.

As far as break-in time is concerned, I can say with absolute certainty that these have gotten well over 60 to 100 hours of use since I bought them a few weeks ago, so I don't think that this is an issue in my case.

I will check on dealer return policies, but I will give these one more go before giving up. The nearest (decent) audio store is about an hour and a half away, so it's a bit of a time committment to get down there, thus (unfortunately) demo-ing speakers is impossible.

In my frustration, I may have exaggerated the comparison on bass output with my Phantoms just a little. I doubt that the 11's put out less bass, but by looking one might think that they should put out more. I suppose that you can't judge a speaker by how it looks though . However, it could be that they created false impression of bass with the 'mid bass hump' (what an interesting idea). All the same, my initial representation was a little inaccurate.

Oh... and "ThisGuy", if you had posted just 11 minutes later, it would have been much fitting

[N. Abstentia]

Yeah the multiple drivers are there to provide accuracy and loudness, not depth. You've now got 6 woofers each working at a fraction of their capability instead of 2 woofers working near their physical limit. You also have dedicated mids instead of trying to make the woofers produce bass and midrange all at the same time. If you'll notice, the entire range of floorstanders have about the same low frequency limit. But the 11's will do it cleaner and allow you to play them louder because of mulitple drivers.

[Woochifer]

Thank you all for the fantastic input.

With all of the questions posed, forgive me if I don't answer them all...

Later this week, when I have more time, I will disconnect everything and start from scratch. Knowing me, it's very likely something got screwed up in my excited haste to hook up my new system . Good advice.

As far as break-in time is concerned, I can say with absolute certainty that these have gotten well over 60 to 100 hours of use since I bought them a few weeks ago, so I don't think that this is an issue in my case.

I will check on dealer return policies, but I will give these one more go before giving up. The nearest (decent) audio store is about an hour and a half away, so it's a bit of a time committment to get down there, thus (unfortunately) demo-ing speakers is impossible.

In my frustration, I may have exaggerated the comparison on bass output with my Phantoms just a little. I doubt that the 11's put out less bass, but by looking one might think that they should put out more. I suppose that you can't judge a speaker by how it looks though . However, it could be that they created false impression of bass with the 'mid bass hump' (what an interesting idea). All the same, my initial representation was a little inaccurate.

Oh... and "ThisGuy", if you had posted just 11 minutes later, it would have been much fitting

As ts, Jimmy, N and the others have pointed out, the reason to go with muliple drivers like with the Monitor 11 is to help the MIDRANGE and the bass QUALITY. I've always made a point of telling people that the reason to get a subwoofer does not necessarily have to do with the bass extension but with improving the midrange. Low frequencies are the most physically taxing sounds to reproduce, and with drivers that have to do double duty with the midrange, removing some of the extreme lows from their chores really helps with the midrange.

Both the Monitor 11 and Phantom are ported speakers, and their low end extension is dictated by the tuned port frequency. In ported speakers, once you go below that frequency then the drop occurs very quickly. Very often, speaker designers will make up for a speaker that does not go quite as low by voicing their speakers with a rise in the midbass. As N pointed out, you might not be used to hearing a speaker that does not have this.

Also, the room acoustics matter a LOT. In addition to TS and BillB's suggestions, I would suggest that you simply walk around the room as the music plays. If you notice that the bass is more pronounced and fuller sounding in other parts of the room, then you clearly have a null occurring at your listening position where low frequency sound waves cancel each other out. If this is the case, then you need to move your chair to a different location and/or change the speaker positioning.

[topspeed]

Hi all,
Recently I purchased a pair of the Paradigm Monitor 11's. When I listened to them in the store, they sounded great, and IMO, they still do. However, their 3 bass drivers make them look like they would put out absolutely thunderous sound, which is not exactly the case. I have them bi-amped with the Denon 3805, so they should be getting plenty of power, but those bass drivers don't give me the response I would expect by looking.

Welcome to the wonderful world of room acoustics. Your room (as opposed to the dealer's) could very well have some weird nodes that are simply working against you right now. Check your placement and tweak that a bit. You can get some bass reinforcement by simply moving your speakers closer to the corners. The downside is you may also get some boominess. Look around and see how your furnishings are set up. If you'd like some ideas about room acoustics and treatments, just do a search on this site and you'll get all you need.

Hope this helps.

[Jimmy C]

Hi all,
Recently I purchased a pair of the Paradigm Monitor 11's. When I listened to them in the store, they sounded great, and IMO, they still do. However, their 3 bass drivers make them look like they would put out absolutely thunderous sound, which is not exactly the case. I have them bi-amped with the Denon 3805, so they should be getting plenty of power, but those bass drivers don't give me the response I would expect by looking.

I know this is a rather ignorant question, but if not for bass, what are these bass drivers supposed to produce? They're functioning properly, so that's not the problem, they just put out a very tepid low end response. The Monitor 9's have a lower frequency extension (8" woofers as opposed to 6-1/2" on the 11's), so what exactly did I pay for by getting the 11's? I like the "punchier" sound I get from the smaller diameter drivers (which is why I didn't go with the 9's), but could someone please explain what these bass drivers are supposed to add to the sound I get from these speakers? With a sub, my system sounds great, but, did I waste my money by not just going with the 7's? I am afraid of the answer to this question, but I will pose it none-the-less.

Any and all input is apprecieated.

-Stephen

...went with a pair of Monitor 11s. We listened to a few other stand-mounts and floor-standers in the sub-$1K range, but he's a bit of a "horsepower" or "numbers" kinda guy... if you get the idea. What are you getting over the 7s or 9s? A Hell of a lot tighter bass. Side-by-side in the store, there is no comparison. DEEPER? Probably not too much.

You are also getting a dedicated midrange (instead of a 2 or 2.5-way... forgot which). This isn't always beneficial, but his set-up sounds decent with a V.P.I. Scout/Grado Platinum or cheap Sony CDP >> Rotel's new pre >> pr. of Dynaco tubed monoblocks or monster Rotel amp. You might also consider the amount of room between your listening position and the speakers... that's a lotta drivers to gel. Tell ya what... the Dyns don't have the Rotel's 380 WPC, but they sound pretty damn good! Amazing - I told him... the Paradigms are efficient! Ah, well... whatever...

I have a pair of Studio 60s, and I don't think his bass is any deeper... it MIGHT be, but I can "feel" mine as much as his. To be fair, my room is smaller (bedroom vs. his livingroom).

Well, hopefully you can work it out... as others have said, play with positioning. The 11s definitely don't dig TOO deep, but you should feel at least "satisfied" in the bass department.

Good luck, and let the forum know what transpires!

[MikeyBC]

Try unhooking the speakers and using a 1.5 volt "D" cell hook it up to the teminals + to + - to - all the woofers should move outward. I have heard of woofers being connected wrong at the factory. Then you'll know for sure its not a phase problem.