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  1. #51
    BooBs are elitist jerks shokhead's Avatar
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    Florian,you mean after you listen to something and it was great,dont you have the charts next to you saying,nope,that shouldnt have sounded good,look at this drop in db at 76.66Hz. You didnt notice? Take those speakers back. Spec's are important but no one and i mean no one has a perfect set of speakers or a setup. Spec's are a guide but my ears are the end results. Anything can be overdone but in electronics,its double. We can agree that there are good 2-way and good 3-way and most likly on a 3-way,a bit better bass response and on the 2-way,a bit tighter mids. Not written is stone,but in general.
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  2. #52
    Forum Regular Florian's Avatar
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    I think that there is no definetive guideline. My VMPS are 4way speakers, my Maggies are 3way speaker. The Kharma 3.2fe is a 2 way speaker and the Apogee Caliper is a 2 way speaker.

    They all sound very different and the bass response on the 2way Apogee is a heck of a lot better than most 3 way speakers that i know. My big 3.6 Maggie plays down to 35Hz acording to the specs, but noone knows a right way to measure such a huge Planar. My RM30's go down to 28, but the 3.6 has definetly lower bass out put than my RM30.

    It all depends on the room and the design.

    Now i did listen to the Audio Note speakers, and i was not impressed at all. and thats ok, the loewthers driver is supposed to be very special and i did not like it.

    -Florian
    Lots of music but not enough time for it all

  3. #53
    RGA
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    Quote Originally Posted by Florian
    I.

    Now i did listen to the Audio Note speakers, and i was not impressed at all. and thats ok
    -Florian
    Which speaker? Where? When? How long? What was it connected to? What did you listen to? And what was it compared to?

    I'm surprised because my dealer sold his maggie 20 for the E/LX and Peter Q currently owns the Apogee Scintilla --- if you're in England you can hear them directly against eachother. Peter owns 100s of coimpetitors componants precisely for such demos.

    this reviewer OWNS the Duetta Signature among others and is not a corporate reviewer --- reviews the stuff he owns. Way more balanced than I am perceived as being. http://www.stereotimes.com/speak071701.shtm (it should be noted in AN's defense that the speaker is less than 1/2 to 1/5 the price of the others in the review).

  4. #54
    Forum Regular Florian's Avatar
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    I have a friend who lives in Raleigh and we visited a Audio Store in NC. They had the K series as far as i remember. They used Bluecircle equipment and we listened to Loreena McKinnet, Therion, and my Phantom of the Opera.

    The AN sounded small and compressed. The pipe organ had no weight nor size to it. Very much like a studio monitor of plays the music like it has no emotion or feeling.

    Instruments were smaller than in real life and the speaker just didnt make music. Sorry, but i just didnt like it and no matter what reviewers and paper specs say is gonna convince me otherwise.

    I dont trust review people one bit. Why someone would sell a MG20R for anything AN makes is a mistory to me.
    Lots of music but not enough time for it all

  5. #55
    Forum Regular Florian's Avatar
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    Now i will say this on the record

    Its all personal taste !!!!


    I am not saying that it was a bad speaker, just that i didnt like it very much. But i also dont like most ML's and B&W's.

    I would have no problem selling my 3.6R/SE and buying a pair of AN's flagship....if it were better
    Lots of music but not enough time for it all

  6. #56
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    Quote Originally Posted by RGA
    I'm surprised because my dealer sold his maggie 20 for the E/LX and Peter Q currently owns the Apogee Scintilla --- if you're in England you can hear them directly against eachother. Peter owns 100s of coimpetitors componants precisely for such demos.
    Get real... not every one who hears AN speakers will prefer them to the competition, there will be a sizeable number who will hear them and decide against them, simple market reality. Your comments about Peter Q owning 100s of competitors product seems hyperbolic, a few maybe but 100s..hmm, even less likely if as you say he recommends a whole system approach.

  7. #57
    RGA
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    TAH

    Peter was a dealer for years, just like Terry at Soundhounds, they have to buy equipment that they sell and basically like Terry try out combinations of all sorts of gear all day day in day out -- not like people who make it a hobby and spend 15 minutesd in a store and listen to a few cuts of a cd and decide because it sounds different than their own system then it must be wrong...

    He bought most of these panels and planar designs (especially defunct ones like Apogee) because he was looking to make the best sounding system and Snells fit that mold best and could be re-worked based of the bel-laboratory and JJ Beranek works on acoustics along with Snell's re-worked blueprint. Horns he doesn't care for though they would have had the driveability requirements.

    He has SS amplifiers kicking around he's built some, and no doubt several products from the prior company he since sold Audio Innovations (which i believe is still going under new ownership) - products from Linn, Oracle Voyd helius systemdek Sonic Frontiers etc etc. Pulling them apart and seeing what was effective about the other guys stuff and what about it was causing the problems. And then hiring people who can do the heavey duty designing where he cannot. One can listen and decide what is good but hiring the top guys from other companies and world class Engineers to achieve the results is probably the way to go. So taking people and using prior research from defunct companies from Sonic Frontiers, Quad, Phillips, Sony, Audio Note Japan(Kondo-San), apogee, Rega, Goldring, Vanden-hul, and also exploring the recording end of it so he has a better idea of what is on the recordings took a big investment in the recordings as well (70,000+) now --- and the micing systems

    Some companies make good stuff but don;t have the sustainability to go on in the market place or ride out the down turn in fads and fashions. Voyd made some of the best turntables arguably the best, but with digital out Voyd collapsed...Peter resurrects it corrects the drive mechanisms and bearings and re-badges it under the AN name. Snell dies and the accountants took over replaced the expensive to make and test originals for slapped together garbage pay some hefy advertising premiums in Stereophile and voila you have a well known Snell -- which finally has soured over the years because the people finally caught on that the reviews were crap because the Snells were crap.

    Boston Acoustics bought Snell and they too have the rights to the original Snell and Snell II models. Here's the difference with Audio Note than most companies -- They WANT other people to copy them and they don't care which is why they have kits. Terry has badgered Boston Acoustics owner to build the original Snells because BA's owner is frustrated that his speakers are not considered to be a high end outfit, Largely because his speakers sound a lot like all the other stuff of similar design out there.

    BA is concerned that the LOOK can't sell and this is a very viable complaint...Audiophiles may buy ugly speakers in the name of sound but will the masses? So yes they know it sounds better than whatthey currently sell under the BA and current Snell umbrella - but taking the risk to sell the ugly box is going to be difficult and pay the premium for the parts. Still BA could sell them cheaper than AN can -- but there in lies a problem -- priced too low and they are not taken seriously by audiophiles with deeper pockets --- and selling theugly to the masses isn't going to fly. If they sell upmarket and compete with Audio Note well BA isn't going to make the profits they're making now.

    B&W's designers of whome you can meet as Peter noted will point blank tell you his speakers are better than what they make -- and they will also point blank tell you that they could never sell it to audiophiles because there is no marketing whirlwind around a chubby ugly 2 way speaker that doesn't have any fancy new advertising gimmick to sell. One year it's nautilus tweeters, another year it's Kevlar another year it's diamond tweeters, and heck they even tried to sell the leather wrap versions(butt ugly IMO). It's ok the other stone age designs have the pendulum swinging as well -- Ribbons crop up from time to time and seem to have a resurgence and even horns are more abundant these days, and panels and planars -- well the ship sunk on them with a few still conning people.

    My dealer sold the maggie 20(something flagship) and the dealer dropped the company simply because they got too many returns. The maggie may be a good speaker but they don't work in most rooms -- which is why so many seem to rave and rave and then a few years later by something totally different --- or own several sets of speakers because the maggie can't do it all. The bass depth and power is totally unaaceptable to me.

    I have heard only three maggies in my life and none of them do bass properly -- anything that is a drum doesn't work, the SMG doesn't work at all though it is old -- and the 3.6 that Sound Plus has on broadway in Vancouver I'd want a second and third listen before I rail on them because it amy have been a system matching issue with Bryston(which can be the case with Bryston off my past experiences).

    There is no singularly right answer TAH and I know this -- it IS a preference.

    I understand Florian's response because from what I understand from Bob Neil the AN K and Blue Circle gear is a bit of a mismatch...He has put Blue Circle with Jean-Marie Reynaud (a speaker I would like to hear --- heck it sounds like it has class just from the name -- oh oh preconceived bias.

  8. #58
    Forum Regular Florian's Avatar
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    If i listen to a live concert, than the stage is at least 10m wide and at least 5 meters depp and endlessly tall.

    No AN speaker throws that stage !!! It cant, it doesnt have the size. You have never heard a properbly setup Maggie, and i can tell.

    -Flo

    You can stick with AN, and i will stick with Maggie and VMPS.
    Lots of music but not enough time for it all

  9. #59
    Forum Regular thepogue's Avatar
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    I would love to hear some AN's...

    to see what all the woopla is about...but I dont think they sell them within driving distance, in fact I looked for dealers and they are far and few between...which surprises me cuz' if they are as great as I'm lead to beleive they shoud be in very home in north america....soooooo what does that tell me?......now I'm sure there is some very long explaination that only the insiders know....I mean heck they wouldn't be all that special if everyone had a set.......


    Peace, Pogue
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  10. #60
    Forum Regular Florian's Avatar
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    I think that AN speakers are for the poeple that listen to specs and live in the believe that a "technically perfect" speaker is the right choice. I am not one of them.

    There are many reasons why a speaker such as AN cannot reproduce the scale and power energy of a live concert.
    Lots of music but not enough time for it all

  11. #61
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    Quote Originally Posted by RGA
    Peter was a dealer for years, just like Terry at Soundhounds..
    Yes I know he was a dealer, but that does not mean he keeps 100s of competitors products around for customers to compare against his products, your original statement is a hyperbole.
    Quote Originally Posted by RGA
    There is no singularly right answer TAH and I know this -- it IS a preference.
    True, but it repudiates almost everything you said before it where you go as far as saying
    Ribbons crop up from time to time and seem to have a resurgence and even horns are more abundant these days, and panels and planars -- well the ship sunk on them with a few still conning people.
    referring to other businesses as cons because you do not like their products is uncalled for.

    You have touched on a bunch of contentious topics that I prefer not to discuss for a variety of reasons. And by the way, you are doing an awful lot of name-dropping, almost compensating for AN lack of formal print media adverts. If as you say you like AN's advertising policy, why do you spend so much time advertising and name dropping on their behalf? From Bosendorfer to Ferrari to Fortex to Steve Guttenburg the list goes on and on. And almost without fail little or no factual information to back it up.

    I hope we can get back to discussing speakers without attacking the business ethics of other industry participants. Audio Note and its proprietors are no better, if the FR graph you have provided is anything to go by, they grossly overstated the nominal sensitivity of the AN-E by over 5dB, and that is just one example.

  12. #62
    Forum Regular Woochifer's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by RGA
    Really -- not only have I been in them I've conducted them and done research papers on them at the university level in psychology. And I did them correctly scoring A's in those papers and courses. I have discussed this test with multitudes of professors Phd students and the way the AES is doing it is not sound (pun alert).
    Plenty to respond to, but I notice that you've deleted your earlier posts, so I'll leave it at that. Also, my earlier statement was unfair presumption, so I apologize for that.

  13. #63
    Forum Regular Florian's Avatar
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    Who cares what the doctor said?

    You love AN and i love Maggies and my VMP's. I am sick of reading all this technical crap and theories. It takes the whole darn fun out of this hobby.
    Lots of music but not enough time for it all

  14. #64
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    Lightbulb

    Hello everyone!!!

    I hate to rain of everyone's parade but for the first time in my auditions I have actually found a speaker that not only sounds right but also measures exceptionally well! It's the Joseph Audio RM33si. When I listened to these speakers I couldn't help but comment on how fast they were and how the music seemed to emerge from nowhere at all. Then I stumbled upon the measurements from stereophile's website. Look at that spectral decay plot there's almost no delayed energy there!! Yes the speaker is a little "hot" which can be seen in the frequency response graph but thats nothing a little tone control can't easily fix. After seeing the graphs and hearing the speaker I'm defeinetely on the side of the scientists who use measurements to design products. Also I listened to these speaks with tubed equipment and I heard the artificial tube-iness very clearly. Happy listening!!

    http://www.stereophile.com//loudspea...76/index7.html


    Quote Originally Posted by Florian
    Who cares what the doctor said?

    You love AN and i love Maggies and my VMP's. I am sick of reading all this technical crap and theories. It takes the whole darn fun out of this hobby.

  15. #65
    Forum Regular Florian's Avatar
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    Well the funny thing is that you can measure 1 speaker by 5 profs. and get 5 different answeres

    Thats why you should trust your ears, and also there is no "written in stone" way to test speakers. There is noone that agrees on how to measure large Planars such as Maggies, Soundlba, Acustat, Apogee etc...
    Lots of music but not enough time for it all

  16. #66
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    I would hardly call the measurements the Joseph exceptional. For a speaker of that price range, that's one of the worst step response measurements I've ever seen. That measurement explains the sound that I heard from a pair of Pearls a couple of years ago.

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    Talking

    I honestly believe that the sprectal decay plots are more important than the step response is. Ever heard the Thiel 1.6's?? They have an excellent measured step response yet their spectral decay measurement isn't so hot in the upper midrange. I couldn't stand listening to the 1.6 for more than 5 minutes yet I spent almost an entire hour with the 33's and wasn't fatigued even though the treble was indeed a little hot. I honestly believe that resonances from the woofers are more bothersome than the tweeters are. I mean if you think about it a resonance at let's say 20khz is not going to be as immediately obvious as lets say a range of frequencies between 500hz and 2khz will be. That's dead smack in the midrange where we are most sensitive to sound. Isn't it a cruel joke to designers of loudspeakers that the region where the midrange and tweeter usualy meet is the point where we are most sensitive to sound?? Indeed it takes a crafty and talented speaker designer to make a decent sounding set of speakers at ANY price range. As much as I love my maggies as much as Florian does their quasi ribbons have lots of resonance problems in the upper passband of the woofer panel and lower passband of the tweeter panel. I actually spoke with Jim Winey's son last year regarding an idea I had for an active crossover to make the speaker have a flatter response. His statement was "the flatter you make the midrange on those MMG's the more the peakiness and resonance will show itself". That's the reason they use a shallow first order crossover.


    Quote Originally Posted by Buzz Roll
    I would hardly call the measurements the Joseph exceptional. For a speaker of that price range, that's one of the worst step response measurements I've ever seen. That measurement explains the sound that I heard from a pair of Pearls a couple of years ago.
    Last edited by newbsterv2; 03-21-2005 at 04:01 PM. Reason: spelling

  18. #68
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    I don't know, I had the same response to the Pearls that you had with the Thiels, so I guess it's just personal preference. This is also my opinion, but I still believe the simple step response is the most important test - all of a speaker's frequency, amplitude and timing errors are revealed at once.

    I know what you mean about where to xover the drivers. I like my Ohm Walsh speakers so much because of the fact that the crossover is around 8k, above the critical midrange that you mention.

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    Question

    I actually have never heard the Ohm Walsh's or the Pearls. The guy at the hifi store said the Pearls were the most 3 dimensional speaker he'd ever heard but they didn't have them on display. I still really don't understand the step response. All the other measurements make sense to me except for that one. Could you explain? I'm not being a smartass either I'm totally serious.


    Quote Originally Posted by Buzz Roll
    I don't know, I had the same response to the Pearls that you had with the Thiels, so I guess it's just personal preference. This is also my opinion, but I still believe the simple step response is the most important test - all of a speaker's frequency, amplitude and timing errors are revealed at once.

    I know what you mean about where to xover the drivers. I like my Ohm Walsh speakers so much because of the fact that the crossover is around 8k, above the critical midrange that you mention.

  20. #70
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    The Ohms are a lot fun - interesting design. I heard the Pearls when I was picking up my amplifier. They were hooked up to a McIntosh system including a pair of McIntosh 1200 Watt Monoblocks. I was surprised that I didn't like the Pearls better.

    Sterephile is one of the very few who publish the step response, but don't put much emphasis on it. The step is basically this: from a condition of rest, the speaker is asked to instantly compress the air. A smooth step response shows a speaker whose acoustic output is a duplicate of its electrical input - which I've always thought was the goal of a pair of speakers. If the step response is a squiggly mess, then clearly the output waveform bears absolutely no resemblance to the input waveform. The speakers basically just jumbled up the music. In my opinion this is exactly why 99% of the speaker designs out there are fatiquing and uninvovling. We're beginning to see more and more designers latching on to this idea of time coherence, but it's hard to design and requires higher quality (costly) parts.

    That's just my take on it - my preference.

  21. #71
    RGA
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    Florian

    I have no relation to Audio Note -- and the one thing you and Peter Qvortrup will agree on is listening - I am the person who recreated the graph from a German Reviewer -- Audio Note produces little information on measured response because it isn;t going to tell you if it sounds good or not (unless it's way the heck out of whack and most everything priced from the Atom to the Dynaudio Evidence Master is not). I am the one who catered to what people were asking for which of course TAH you are indeed correct I probably did AN a disservice on this front.

    I will say that I don't buy the notion of scale -- the AN K cannot produce the scale of a full scale live event that is true but there is no other speaker that size I have ever heard that could either and neither can the SMG - Listening to Tina Turner with the speaker properly set-up that is abundantly obvious. Something like the Avante Gaurde Uno might but to be qquite frank with AMPLIFIED music at most live concerts few home systems -- read NO - home systems mentioned ont hsi board so far in the years I've been here can replace the live event -- and the ones that can produce the levels and scale and BASS and dynamics are NOT magnepans --- Avante Gaurde's system posted here probably comes the closest but can one stomach it for listening to music the way a home system was meant for?

    Soundstages are not limitless in height either so idf that is what maggies is doing it is faking it. Recordings are not recorded for the msot part like a stage but in a recording studio and often done in separate tracks and then mixed together -- they were doing that for what 40 years now laying background vocals in after lead vocals and instruments compeletely separately some of the time. I think I get why the fellow bought the SMG and why one would by a stat and a 3.6 - but it isn't me and it's not more realistic to me.

    Florian the people say nothing about the speakers but generally about a certain testing methodology used in the audio industry...it has nothing whatsoever to do with any speaker so I apologise for the confusion.


    TAH.
    You can ask Peter what he owns presently -- it's quite a lot of gear. As for names you are correct I should not be posting what obviously he does not feel the need to do...he said to me that he does not feel it's right to convince people by listing recording studios and names etc (unless it's a specific issue/product related to a specific conversation about the issue/product and to a specific person on a forum or on the phone etc). The reason is to likely to protect the people in the industry who could get into trouble if they are fielding calls about a competitor's product. That would indeed look bad if I am working for speaker maker X, and it leaks that I prefer speaker maker Y's product. There is some tact that needs to be maintained and I again I should leave that. Mentioning names is inapriate I agree and not what AN would desire.

    Pogue.

    I understand the complaint and so does Audio Note. This company has been around since the 1970s but for most of that period has sold ultra expensive gear. People like Paul Lam who is a dealer who sometimes posts on forums told me that the price to get into Audio Note is too high for him to be able to carry such a line. The dealers hit North America I believe 3-4 years ago and sit at about 25 dealers in North America. Soundhounds picked them up because the store owner had already owend Snell E's. He happened upon them and decided to carry them because he wanted a SET line. In the last three years they have dropped at least 4 speaker lines and a number of their amplifier lines and AN is the biggest seller he has. Considering the price of AN gear when you are selling MORE stifly priced ugly non home theater friendly products versus way more household names then they're doing something.

    Few dealers have these kinds of very deep pockets - they are the biggest Rega dealer in North america. Not every dealer around WANTS tube amps let alone SETs. Hi Fi Center in Vancouver has been sitting on a Jadis amp for 3 years -- it's probably STILL in the front window and when i was in they were going to give ti to me for $1700.00 -- it was retailing for $6k. But they have nothing(speakers) in the store that likes tubes.

    So you are a businessman with limited dollars - are you going to sell the home theater room which is relatively low cost outlay to you, where the stuff looks cool does everything, and then sell the person several boxes, the stuff has so many write ups that you really don;t have to do anything but tell the customer how much it is and let them play with it for 20 minutes and then collect the money, where the whole set-up is $1500.00 -$2k. You can sell a LOT of these because many more people can buy it --- and in more areas of the country. OR do you want to sell a $3,000.00 10 watt amplifier where every few years you have to buy tubes to stick in) and ohh there is no remote control and forget home theater compeltely. Ohh you want speakers and a cd player at that level as well - now you're into $10k...and you still don't get surround sound...how many people are going to lay out that kind of coin? And that's a pretty entry levelish system for Audio Note if you want a true representation of what they're really about. Even the dealers who ARE currently carrying Audio Note in North America - many of them are compromises to Peter's vision of how it should be sold - some carry them because they really like the stuff but carry very little content. Soundhounds is a success because one can hear several models of everything so one can hear the difference between levels -- but more importantly they can also hear big big competitors.

    But maybe what you are saying is that because they are not readily available that means they are not as good? But we know why this argument is less succeful because one can see the analogy that Rolls Royce and Ferrari are not around every corner - but Caveliers and Focuses are. Bose is sold all over the place, Magnepan, Dynaudio and many many higher end speakers are not available in a lot of areas. As an example, There is one maggie dealer in this Province of over 4million people -- Bose is at every Future shop(and they are as common as Best Buy to you guys in the US) --- and Bose is even sold at the dealer the maggie is sold at.

    I'm sorry but if I want to make massive money I'm going to try and carry what I know will sell with the least possible fuss and most people can afford.

    And if I'm going to sell to people a product that has no features, is butt ugly, has little to no real information (measurements or press reviews relative to the rest of the stuff carried in the store), is expensive etc etc and have them base their decision on the sound quality of the system and ignore those major areas where they're beaten --- then by heaven it had better be vastly superior to the other stuff I'm carrying --- and I better be damn sure I'm selling in an area where people will indeed go by the sound quality by spending many many hours. Then the dealer better want to invest that timne as well. FEW are going to want that hassle...I wouldn't. Another dealer said they'd kill to sell B&O -- sure it's crap but it sells and has huge profit margins -- who cares about the sound?

  22. #72
    Forum Regular Florian's Avatar
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    Well maybe i put it wrong.

    When i listen to Maggies (3.6 not the hundred year old SMG) then what i hear is a lot more like live music than other speakers that i know. The VMPS RM30 are awsome in that regard too, exept for the image height.

    -Flo
    Lots of music but not enough time for it all

  23. #73
    BooBs are elitist jerks shokhead's Avatar
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    What ever happened to 2-way vs 3-way? I just love runaway threads.
    Look & Listen

  24. #74
    Forum Regular Florian's Avatar
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    Lol, i guess w kinda stole the thread.

    i think that there is no better or worse. It all depends on the designers implementation and room acoustics.
    Lots of music but not enough time for it all

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    Quote Originally Posted by Florian
    Lol, i guess w kinda stole the thread.

    i think that there is no better or worse. It all depends on the designers implementation and room acoustics.
    Hey, did you guys see x-men2 when xavier sits in that room with the helmet. I'm way off topic here...you guys heard of wall of sound but how about a sphere like that made of speakers and you could even get noises from below. Like youd walk out on that ramp and there'd just be a sphere of speakers everywhere around you...That's really similar to surround nowadays but have you ever heard of in floor or in-ground speakers? I know wall units and ceiling units, how about in floor units. Or propjectile units that could go through the wall and zap your neighbour with a hit of acdc!?!

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