2-way vs 3-way which is better

[Buzz Roll]

I don't know, I had the same response to the Pearls that you had with the Thiels, so I guess it's just personal preference. This is also my opinion, but I still believe the simple step response is the most important test - all of a speaker's frequency, amplitude and timing errors are revealed at once.

I know what you mean about where to xover the drivers. I like my Ohm Walsh speakers so much because of the fact that the crossover is around 8k, above the critical midrange that you mention.

[newbsterv2]

I actually have never heard the Ohm Walsh's or the Pearls. The guy at the hifi store said the Pearls were the most 3 dimensional speaker he'd ever heard but they didn't have them on display. I still really don't understand the step response. All the other measurements make sense to me except for that one. Could you explain? I'm not being a smartass either I'm totally serious.

I don't know, I had the same response to the Pearls that you had with the Thiels, so I guess it's just personal preference. This is also my opinion, but I still believe the simple step response is the most important test - all of a speaker's frequency, amplitude and timing errors are revealed at once.

I know what you mean about where to xover the drivers. I like my Ohm Walsh speakers so much because of the fact that the crossover is around 8k, above the critical midrange that you mention.

[Buzz Roll]

The Ohms are a lot fun - interesting design. I heard the Pearls when I was picking up my amplifier. They were hooked up to a McIntosh system including a pair of McIntosh 1200 Watt Monoblocks. I was surprised that I didn't like the Pearls better.

Sterephile is one of the very few who publish the step response, but don't put much emphasis on it. The step is basically this: from a condition of rest, the speaker is asked to instantly compress the air. A smooth step response shows a speaker whose acoustic output is a duplicate of its electrical input - which I've always thought was the goal of a pair of speakers. If the step response is a squiggly mess, then clearly the output waveform bears absolutely no resemblance to the input waveform. The speakers basically just jumbled up the music. In my opinion this is exactly why 99% of the speaker designs out there are fatiquing and uninvovling. We're beginning to see more and more designers latching on to this idea of time coherence, but it's hard to design and requires higher quality (costly) parts.

That's just my take on it - my preference.

[RGA]

Florian

I have no relation to Audio Note -- and the one thing you and Peter Qvortrup will agree on is listening - I am the person who recreated the graph from a German Reviewer -- Audio Note produces little information on measured response because it isn;t going to tell you if it sounds good or not (unless it's way the heck out of whack and most everything priced from the Atom to the Dynaudio Evidence Master is not). I am the one who catered to what people were asking for which of course TAH you are indeed correct I probably did AN a disservice on this front.

I will say that I don't buy the notion of scale -- the AN K cannot produce the scale of a full scale live event that is true but there is no other speaker that size I have ever heard that could either and neither can the SMG - Listening to Tina Turner with the speaker properly set-up that is abundantly obvious. Something like the Avante Gaurde Uno might but to be qquite frank with AMPLIFIED music at most live concerts few home systems -- read NO - home systems mentioned ont hsi board so far in the years I've been here can replace the live event -- and the ones that can produce the levels and scale and BASS and dynamics are NOT magnepans --- Avante Gaurde's system posted here probably comes the closest but can one stomach it for listening to music the way a home system was meant for?

Soundstages are not limitless in height either so idf that is what maggies is doing it is faking it. Recordings are not recorded for the msot part like a stage but in a recording studio and often done in separate tracks and then mixed together -- they were doing that for what 40 years now laying background vocals in after lead vocals and instruments compeletely separately some of the time. I think I get why the fellow bought the SMG and why one would by a stat and a 3.6 - but it isn't me and it's not more realistic to me.

Florian the people say nothing about the speakers but generally about a certain testing methodology used in the audio industry...it has nothing whatsoever to do with any speaker so I apologise for the confusion.


TAH.
You can ask Peter what he owns presently -- it's quite a lot of gear. As for names you are correct I should not be posting what obviously he does not feel the need to do...he said to me that he does not feel it's right to convince people by listing recording studios and names etc (unless it's a specific issue/product related to a specific conversation about the issue/product and to a specific person on a forum or on the phone etc). The reason is to likely to protect the people in the industry who could get into trouble if they are fielding calls about a competitor's product. That would indeed look bad if I am working for speaker maker X, and it leaks that I prefer speaker maker Y's product. There is some tact that needs to be maintained and I again I should leave that. Mentioning names is inapriate I agree and not what AN would desire.

Pogue.

I understand the complaint and so does Audio Note. This company has been around since the 1970s but for most of that period has sold ultra expensive gear. People like Paul Lam who is a dealer who sometimes posts on forums told me that the price to get into Audio Note is too high for him to be able to carry such a line. The dealers hit North America I believe 3-4 years ago and sit at about 25 dealers in North America. Soundhounds picked them up because the store owner had already owend Snell E's. He happened upon them and decided to carry them because he wanted a SET line. In the last three years they have dropped at least 4 speaker lines and a number of their amplifier lines and AN is the biggest seller he has. Considering the price of AN gear when you are selling MORE stifly priced ugly non home theater friendly products versus way more household names then they're doing something.

Few dealers have these kinds of very deep pockets - they are the biggest Rega dealer in North america. Not every dealer around WANTS tube amps let alone SETs. Hi Fi Center in Vancouver has been sitting on a Jadis amp for 3 years -- it's probably STILL in the front window and when i was in they were going to give ti to me for $1700.00 -- it was retailing for $6k. But they have nothing(speakers) in the store that likes tubes.

So you are a businessman with limited dollars - are you going to sell the home theater room which is relatively low cost outlay to you, where the stuff looks cool does everything, and then sell the person several boxes, the stuff has so many write ups that you really don;t have to do anything but tell the customer how much it is and let them play with it for 20 minutes and then collect the money, where the whole set-up is $1500.00 -$2k. You can sell a LOT of these because many more people can buy it --- and in more areas of the country. OR do you want to sell a $3,000.00 10 watt amplifier where every few years you have to buy tubes to stick in) and ohh there is no remote control and forget home theater compeltely. Ohh you want speakers and a cd player at that level as well - now you're into $10k...and you still don't get surround sound...how many people are going to lay out that kind of coin? And that's a pretty entry levelish system for Audio Note if you want a true representation of what they're really about. Even the dealers who ARE currently carrying Audio Note in North America - many of them are compromises to Peter's vision of how it should be sold - some carry them because they really like the stuff but carry very little content. Soundhounds is a success because one can hear several models of everything so one can hear the difference between levels -- but more importantly they can also hear big big competitors.

But maybe what you are saying is that because they are not readily available that means they are not as good? But we know why this argument is less succeful because one can see the analogy that Rolls Royce and Ferrari are not around every corner - but Caveliers and Focuses are. Bose is sold all over the place, Magnepan, Dynaudio and many many higher end speakers are not available in a lot of areas. As an example, There is one maggie dealer in this Province of over 4million people -- Bose is at every Future shop(and they are as common as Best Buy to you guys in the US) --- and Bose is even sold at the dealer the maggie is sold at.

I'm sorry but if I want to make massive money I'm going to try and carry what I know will sell with the least possible fuss and most people can afford.

And if I'm going to sell to people a product that has no features, is butt ugly, has little to no real information (measurements or press reviews relative to the rest of the stuff carried in the store), is expensive etc etc and have them base their decision on the sound quality of the system and ignore those major areas where they're beaten --- then by heaven it had better be vastly superior to the other stuff I'm carrying --- and I better be damn sure I'm selling in an area where people will indeed go by the sound quality by spending many many hours. Then the dealer better want to invest that timne as well. FEW are going to want that hassle...I wouldn't. Another dealer said they'd kill to sell B&O -- sure it's crap but it sells and has huge profit margins -- who cares about the sound?

[Florian]

Well maybe i put it wrong.

When i listen to Maggies (3.6 not the hundred year old SMG) then what i hear is a lot more like live music than other speakers that i know. The VMPS RM30 are awsome in that regard too, exept for the image height.

-Flo

[shokhead]

What ever happened to 2-way vs 3-way? I just love runaway threads.

[Florian]

Lol, i guess w kinda stole the thread.

i think that there is no better or worse. It all depends on the designers implementation and room acoustics.

[thepogue]

I'll just never be able to make a sound decision without hearing them...and that IS a shame...

Florian

I have no relation to Audio Note -- and the one thing you and Peter Qvortrup will agree on is listening - I am the person who recreated the graph from a German Reviewer -- Audio Note produces little information on measured response because it isn;t going to tell you if it sounds good or not (unless it's way the heck out of whack and most everything priced from the Atom to the Dynaudio Evidence Master is not). I am the one who catered to what people were asking for which of course TAH you are indeed correct I probably did AN a disservice on this front.

I will say that I don't buy the notion of scale -- the AN K cannot produce the scale of a full scale live event that is true but there is no other speaker that size I have ever heard that could either and neither can the SMG - Listening to Tina Turner with the speaker properly set-up that is abundantly obvious. Something like the Avante Gaurde Uno might but to be qquite frank with AMPLIFIED music at most live concerts few home systems -- read NO - home systems mentioned ont hsi board so far in the years I've been here can replace the live event -- and the ones that can produce the levels and scale and BASS and dynamics are NOT magnepans --- Avante Gaurde's system posted here probably comes the closest but can one stomach it for listening to music the way a home system was meant for?

Soundstages are not limitless in height either so idf that is what maggies is doing it is faking it. Recordings are not recorded for the msot part like a stage but in a recording studio and often done in separate tracks and then mixed together -- they were doing that for what 40 years now laying background vocals in after lead vocals and instruments compeletely separately some of the time. I think I get why the fellow bought the SMG and why one would by a stat and a 3.6 - but it isn't me and it's not more realistic to me.

Florian the people say nothing about the speakers but generally about a certain testing methodology used in the audio industry...it has nothing whatsoever to do with any speaker so I apologise for the confusion.


TAH.
You can ask Peter what he owns presently -- it's quite a lot of gear. As for names you are correct I should not be posting what obviously he does not feel the need to do...he said to me that he does not feel it's right to convince people by listing recording studios and names etc (unless it's a specific issue/product related to a specific conversation about the issue/product and to a specific person on a forum or on the phone etc). The reason is to likely to protect the people in the industry who could get into trouble if they are fielding calls about a competitor's product. That would indeed look bad if I am working for speaker maker X, and it leaks that I prefer speaker maker Y's product. There is some tact that needs to be maintained and I again I should leave that. Mentioning names is inapriate I agree and not what AN would desire.

Pogue.

I understand the complaint and so does Audio Note. This company has been around since the 1970s but for most of that period has sold ultra expensive gear. People like Paul Lam who is a dealer who sometimes posts on forums told me that the price to get into Audio Note is too high for him to be able to carry such a line. The dealers hit North America I believe 3-4 years ago and sit at about 25 dealers in North America. Soundhounds picked them up because the store owner had already owend Snell E's. He happened upon them and decided to carry them because he wanted a SET line. In the last three years they have dropped at least 4 speaker lines and a number of their amplifier lines and AN is the biggest seller he has. Considering the price of AN gear when you are selling MORE stifly priced ugly non home theater friendly products versus way more household names then they're doing something.

Few dealers have these kinds of very deep pockets - they are the biggest Rega dealer in North america. Not every dealer around WANTS tube amps let alone SETs. Hi Fi Center in Vancouver has been sitting on a Jadis amp for 3 years -- it's probably STILL in the front window and when i was in they were going to give ti to me for $1700.00 -- it was retailing for $6k. But they have nothing(speakers) in the store that likes tubes.

So you are a businessman with limited dollars - are you going to sell the home theater room which is relatively low cost outlay to you, where the stuff looks cool does everything, and then sell the person several boxes, the stuff has so many write ups that you really don;t have to do anything but tell the customer how much it is and let them play with it for 20 minutes and then collect the money, where the whole set-up is $1500.00 -$2k. You can sell a LOT of these because many more people can buy it --- and in more areas of the country. OR do you want to sell a $3,000.00 10 watt amplifier where every few years you have to buy tubes to stick in) and ohh there is no remote control and forget home theater compeltely. Ohh you want speakers and a cd player at that level as well - now you're into $10k...and you still don't get surround sound...how many people are going to lay out that kind of coin? And that's a pretty entry levelish system for Audio Note if you want a true representation of what they're really about. Even the dealers who ARE currently carrying Audio Note in North America - many of them are compromises to Peter's vision of how it should be sold - some carry them because they really like the stuff but carry very little content. Soundhounds is a success because one can hear several models of everything so one can hear the difference between levels -- but more importantly they can also hear big big competitors.

But maybe what you are saying is that because they are not readily available that means they are not as good? But we know why this argument is less succeful because one can see the analogy that Rolls Royce and Ferrari are not around every corner - but Caveliers and Focuses are. Bose is sold all over the place, Magnepan, Dynaudio and many many higher end speakers are not available in a lot of areas. As an example, There is one maggie dealer in this Province of over 4million people -- Bose is at every Future shop(and they are as common as Best Buy to you guys in the US) --- and Bose is even sold at the dealer the maggie is sold at.

I'm sorry but if I want to make massive money I'm going to try and carry what I know will sell with the least possible fuss and most people can afford.

And if I'm going to sell to people a product that has no features, is butt ugly, has little to no real information (measurements or press reviews relative to the rest of the stuff carried in the store), is expensive etc etc and have them base their decision on the sound quality of the system and ignore those major areas where they're beaten --- then by heaven it had better be vastly superior to the other stuff I'm carrying --- and I better be damn sure I'm selling in an area where people will indeed go by the sound quality by spending many many hours. Then the dealer better want to invest that timne as well. FEW are going to want that hassle...I wouldn't. Another dealer said they'd kill to sell B&O -- sure it's crap but it sells and has huge profit margins -- who cares about the sound?

[vr6ofpain]

I really want to listen to the Spendor S5e. Though I cannot afford it at this point in my life, but I like to wish I could.

http://www.stereophile.com/loudspeak...ws/904spendor/



Though honsestly I am also very interested in the EPOS M5's, which I could afford.

[Geoffcin]

I really want to listen to the Spendor S5e. Though I cannot afford it at this point in my life, but I like to wish I could.

Though honsestly I am also very interested in the EPOS M5's, which I could afford.

Just goes to show you that audio mags are worth reading.