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  1. #1
    Super Moderator Site Moderator JohnMichael's Avatar
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    The world is too ugly and cruel

    NBC News and news services
    updated 9/30/2010 700 PM ET
    Share Print Font: +-Some gay rights groups are urging that New Jersey's hate crime law be used in the case of the Rutgers student who committed suicide after an intimate encounter with another student was shown on the Internet.

    The state's hate crime law is among the strictest in the nation, and it works as most of them do. It's not an offense charged on its own. Instead, it's invoked at sentencing to seek a harsher penalty. The criminal charges filed so far in the case invasion of privacy would qualify for a hate crime enhancement, say legal experts in the state.

    Technolog: Internet was help and hell for Rutgers freshman
    According to the Middlesex County prosecutor, New Jersey's invasion of privacy statutes make it a crime "to collect or view images depicting nudity or sexual contact involving another individual without that person's consent." It's a separate crime to transmit or distribute those images. The penalty can include a prison term of up to five years.

    If the hate crime enhancement were applied, it would raise the maximum penalty to 10 years.

    Tyler Clementi, 18, jumped off New York City's George Washington Bridge into the Hudson River last week. His body was identified on Thursday after being found in the river a day before.


    Was Rutgers suicide case a hate crime?
    Outrage on campus after sex-video suicide
    Gay rights groups say Rutgers suicide a hate crime
    ..Clementi's roommate, Dharun Ravi, and fellow Rutgers freshman Molly Wei, both 18, have been charged with invading Clementi's privacy. Prosecutors say that they used a webcam to surreptitiously transmit a live image of Clementi having sex Sept. 19 and that Ravi tried to webcast a second encounter on Sept. 21, the day before Clementi's suicide.

    As for possible federal charges, a Justice Department official says that's not likely at this point. The federal hate crime law would not apply, the official says, because it requires proof of an intent to cause violence to the victim.

    .YouTube channel offers hope to gay teens

    Steven Goldstein, chairman of New Jersey-based Garden State Equality, said in a statement that his group considers Clementi's death a hate crime.

    "We are heartbroken over the tragic loss of a young man who, by all accounts, was brilliant, talented and kind," Goldstein said. "And we are sickened that anyone in our society, such as the students allegedly responsible for making the surreptitious video, might consider destroying others' lives as a sport."

    Former assistant Essex County prosecutor Luanne Peterpaul, who is vice chairwoman of Garden State Equality, said in order to apply the hate crime law prosecutors would need to establish that the defendants were motivated to act because they perceived Clementi as gay. But that can be hard to prove, she said.

    Story: Outrage on campus over student's suicide after sex is broadcast online
    Gay rights groups say Clementi's death is the latest example of a long-standing problem: young people who kill themselves because they're bullied about being gay regardless of whether they are.

    In response to Clementi's death and others, the group Parents, Families & Friends of Lesbians and Gays said it would issue a "call to action" on the topic.

    Last week, Dan Savage, a columnist at the Seattle weekly newspaper The Stranger, launched the It Gets Better Project, a YouTube channel where gay, lesbian and bisexual adults share the turmoil they experienced when they were younger and show how their lives have gotten better.

    NBC News Justice Correspondent Pete Williams and The Associated Press contributed to this report.


    .

    This is not a world for a gentle soul.
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  2. #2
    Silence of the spam Site Moderator Geoffcin's Avatar
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    This is big news here in NY. Hard to believe this happed at Rutgers. Really sad.
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    This is sad anywhere. It is such a shame that this happens anywhere but here in the states I blame it on our Religiously run Government that continues to dis-allow equality and tolerance of lifestyles, not always a choice but just the way people are born and wired, that the Book says is bad.

    F the book, it's thousands of years old and totally irrelevant in today's world. I am so sick of every election being based on whether the candidate is for or against abortion, which is directly tied to religious beliefs.

    I guess what I am ranting about is that if people were taught at a young age to be more accepting and tolerant of others, no matter what, we would not have this kind of behavior. But, in order for that to happen, the adults have to start behaving that way and the politicians, and the freakin outdated churches.

  4. #4
    Shostakovich fan Feanor's Avatar
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    Tolerance, after all these years, is still far from ubiquitous.

    My fear is that we could be entering a long interval during which it will be even less prevalent. Tough times are my prognosis for North America and Europe for the next generation. During tough times people become more polarized and more extreme.

    Power elites and their politician lackeys exploit prejudices and fears to further their agendas. So for example US corporations and very rich are flogging "social conservatism" to the ignorant masses. You'd be serious wrong you imagine that the former give a pinch of poop about abortion or gay marriage but how else do can they get the Republican or Tea Party rank & foul to vote for economic policies that utterly contrary to their actual interests?

  5. #5
    Class of the clown GMichael's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Geoffcin
    This is big news here in NY. Hard to believe this happed at Rutgers. Really sad.
    Yeah, you can't turn on the TV without hearing something about this case. But somehow, the news never really tells what's going on.
    WARNING! - The Surgeon General has determined that, time spent listening to music is not deducted from one's lifespan.

  6. #6
    Silence of the spam Site Moderator Geoffcin's Avatar
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    Well I don't know about Rutgers personally, but I would assume it was much like Stony Brook, where my daughter graduated from. From what I know of that campus being non-hetero does not even rate an "oh look at that".I think this stupid prank has cast a intolerant stain on all the regional college student bodies, but when if you really look at it it's was a personal decision made by one or two jerks. Involentary manslaughter would be a good charge in this case. They just about ran the poor kid over.
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  7. #7
    Musicaholic Forums Moderator ForeverAutumn's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Geoffcin
    Involentary manslaughter would be a good charge in this case. They just about ran the poor kid over.
    This is such a tragic story. And obviously the people who did this should be punished. My original though was the same as Geoff's. But I don't believe that one event in isolation can cause someone enough grief to commit suicide (although I'm not an expert so I could be wrong). I suspect that this poor guy was already struggling. Perhaps this event was the straw that broke the camel's back, but they didn't kill him. He killed himself. He had other options. He could have changed schools, changed his name, waited a week until some drunk jock did something even worse and he was yesterday's news.

    There was a story in Canada recently where a high school girl was gang raped and the video and picture were posted on Youtube and other sites. She was obviously devastated and will require lots of therapy. But she didn't kill herself.

    I think that it would be very hard to prove that these two people are directly responsible for his death. Yes, it was a dumb prank and shouldn't have been done. If it was done solely because he was gay then I think that charging them with a hate crime would be justified. But I don't think that a manslaughter charge would stick. Unless there is more to this case than we know.

    OTOH, perhaps charging them with, and trying them for, manslaughter, even if it won't stick, will set a precedence for the future.

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    Quote Originally Posted by ForeverAutumn
    This is such a tragic story. And obviously the people who did this should be punished. My original though was the same as Geoff's. But I don't believe that one event in isolation can cause someone enough grief to commit suicide (although I'm not an expert so I could be wrong). I suspect that this poor guy was already struggling. Perhaps this event was the straw that broke the camel's back, but they didn't kill him. He killed himself. He had other options. He could have changed schools, changed his name, waited a week until some drunk jock did something even worse and he was yesterday's news.

    There was a story in Canada recently where a high school girl was gang raped and the video and picture were posted on Youtube and other sites. She was obviously devastated and will require lots of therapy. But she didn't kill herself.

    I think that it would be very hard to prove that these two people are directly responsible for his death. Yes, it was a dumb prank and shouldn't have been done. If it was done solely because he was gay then I think that charging them with a hate crime would be justified. But I don't think that a manslaughter charge would stick. Unless there is more to this case than we know.

    OTOH, perhaps charging them with, and trying them for, manslaughter, even if it won't stick, will set a precedence for the future.
    Public Hangings on a regular basis may help people that think there are no consequences for their actions realize that there are.

    The thing that sucks is that you can spend more time in jail for pot that killing someone.

  9. #9
    Super Moderator Site Moderator JohnMichael's Avatar
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    When I think back to days when I was that young I remember how tough it was.I had not fully admitted to myself that I was gay. I knew which sex I was attracted to but not ready to declare myself yet. Of course I had the misfortune of my classmates deciding in the 7th grade that I was gay. My greatest fear was family rejection.

    I wonder how well this young man new himself. Did he come from a family that would not support his being gay. Was he ready to have his intimate experiences broadcast. Did his relationship end because of the hidden camera. I wonder at that age and all that might have been involved would I have been the next over the bridge.
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    Musicaholic Forums Moderator ForeverAutumn's Avatar
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    Well thank goodness you didn't take that jump!

    I have many gay friends and they all have similar stories of trying to fight what they knew was the truth. I have one friend who, like you, had his classmates decide in elementary school that he was gay. He wasn't ready to admit it until later in high school. He had a terrible childhood. I remember him getting beat up regularly. And then when he finally did come out, his sister disowned him.

    It kind of makes me laugh when I hear haters talk about how being gay is a choice. Of the gay people that I know, if it were a choice, they certainly would not have chosen to be gay. If only people could be more tolerant of something that has absolutely nothing to do with them.

  11. #11
    Super Moderator Site Moderator JohnMichael's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by ForeverAutumn

    There was a story in Canada recently where a high school girl was gang raped and the video and picture were posted on Youtube and other sites. She was obviously devastated and will require lots of therapy. But she didn't kill herself.
    .

    Rape is an incredibly tragic event and I am profoundly sorry anyone would experience such a life changing crime. I am glad she is surviving and receiving support. Having good people rally around you after such an event is very important. Going through it alone is a very lonely and difficult time.

    I wish the Rutgers student had more support after his event.
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    Can a crooner get a gig? dean_martin's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by GMichael
    Yeah, you can't turn on the TV without hearing something about this case. But somehow, the news never really tells what's going on.
    I kind of agree with you, GM. At first I thought that I just wasn't getting the full story because I've been busy, but the article I read in today's paper did not contain many facts. I asked my wife if she had heard anymore details during the day either online or on tv. With 2 kids in college we kind of concluded that having a roommate in a single room dorm room deprives a college student, who may be out on his/her own for the first time, the privacy that we all need at times. From the set up of the webcam and the fact that the young man had to clear use of the room with the room mate we inferred that the young man and the room mate were doubled up in a single room. Such living arrangements can lead to a miserable existence.

    And at the same time, there's this goofball DA in Michigan trashing the student at UM for being gay.

    I agree with the notion that we are heading backwards when it comes to tolerance/acceptance. Personally, I blame plain white folks who think that gays "have too many rights", that blacks can't complain about racism anymore because "they" have a black president, etc. No matter how ignorant, these are real feelings rising to the surface and being expressed without shame, guilt or remorse. These same folks no longer respect civil rights laws because they believe these laws are the product of big government, that they show favoritism and lead to entitlements. Bigotry is being tolerated as a political movement. These same people have no respect for the law and are taking the law into their own hands. (I saw this happen in a civil rights case I tried 2 weeks ago.) To me, this jeopardizes our country much more than deficits, bailouts and big government. It's a weird, scary time of regression in American society. It's time to push back before it's too late.

  13. #13
    Oldest join date recoveryone's Avatar
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    Based on what little information that is trickling out west on this case, I would look at this a manslaughter case ( where the action of one causes the death of another) any additional charges could go into the area of wire tapping/cyber intrusion, since neither party being broadcast was unaware of the actions taking place. The hatecrime would only be an enhancement on the sentencing if convicted.
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  14. #14
    RGA
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    Quote Originally Posted by Hyfi
    not always a choice
    It's a biological 100% FACT that it is not a choice.

    It's not a choice - but try and tell the fanatics this. Because gee if it IS Biology which it IS, then that means homosexuals were BORN that way and if they were BORN that way in God's image then God might just be a homosexual drag queen. I would soooo love it if he was. The looks on the nutters faces at the Pearly Gates (which might explain why they're pearly) would be so awesome.

    In certain ways the gay brain could be argued to be evolutionarily superior to the heterosexual brain (and has been argued by some) and while that is a bit of a leap it has some credibility.

    Regardless Homosexuality is NOT a choice - they were born that way - and that's a problem for religion because that means God made them that way on purpose. So they can't handle it - they'd have to re-adjust yet another stupid belief system that fills every page of the Bible.


    "A UK scientist said this was evidence sexual orientation was set in the womb.

    Scientists have noticed for some time that homosexual people of both sexes have differences in certain cognitive abilities, suggesting there may be subtle differences in their brain structure.

    This is the first time, however, that scientists have used brain scanners to try to look for the source of those differences.

    A group of 90 healthy gay and heterosexual adults, men and women, were scanned by the Karolinska Institute scientists to measure the volume of both sides, or hemispheres, of their brain.

    When these results were collected, it was found that lesbians and heterosexual men shared a particular "asymmetry" in their hemisphere size, while heterosexual women and gay men had no difference between the size of the different halves of their brain.

    In other words, structurally, at least, the brains of gay men were more like heterosexual women, and gay women more like heterosexual men.

    A further experiment found that in one particular area of the brain, the amygdala, there were other significant differences.

    In heterosexual men and gay women, there were more nerve "connections" in the right side of the amygdala, compared with the left.

    The reverse, with more neural connections in the left amygdala, was the case in homosexual men and heterosexual women.

    The Karolinska team said that these differences could not be mainly explained by "learned" effects, but needed another mechanism to set them, either before or after birth.

    'Fight, flight or mate'

    Dr Qazi Rahman, a lecturer in cognitive biology at Queen Mary, University of London, said that he believed that these brain differences were laid down early in foetal development.

    "As far as I'm concerned there is no argument any more - if you are gay, you are born gay," he said.

    The amygdala, he said, was important because of its role in "orientating", or directing, the rest of the brain in response to an emotional stimulus - be it during the "fight or flight" response, or the presence of a potential mate.

    "In other words, the brain network which determines what sexual orientation actually 'orients' towards is similar between gay men and straight women, and between gay women and straight men.

    "This makes sense given that gay men have a sexual preference which is like that of women in general, that is, preferring men, and vice versa for lesbian women."

    http://news.bbc.co.uk/2/hi/health/7456588.stm
    http://playthink.wordpress.com/2008/...the-gay-brain/
    http://www.pnas.org/content/102/20/7...urcetype=HWCIT
    http://news.bbc.co.uk/2/hi/health/7456588.stm

    The fact that this is even a debate any more is yet another reason that religion holds the entire human race back in a moral and ethical stone age.
    Last edited by RGA; 10-01-2010 at 10:37 PM.

  15. #15
    3LB
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    I'm with Hyfi - for too long issues like sexual orientation and abortion have taken up way too much of our political agend. Don't like abortions, don't get one. Don't like gay marriage, don't marry a homosexual.
    Repost this on your wall if you love Jesus.

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    Shostakovich fan Feanor's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by 3LB
    I'm with Hyfi - for too long issues like sexual orientation and abortion have taken up way too much of our political agend. Don't like abortions, don't get one. Don't like gay marriage, don't marry a homosexual.
    That's so true, isn't it? But some people feel they have to control other people's personal morality. More to the point, some politicians like to flog simple, moral issues instead of difficult, economic issues to ignorant voters.

  17. #17
    RGA
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    Quote Originally Posted by 3LB
    I'm with Hyfi - for too long issues like sexual orientation and abortion have taken up way too much of our political agend. Don't like abortions, don't get one. Don't like gay marriage, don't marry a homosexual.
    Hahah - I don't know if you meant to be funny but I found that hilarious.

  18. #18
    Super Moderator Site Moderator JohnMichael's Avatar
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    Angry I just have to say this

    If you truly believe in what you think you are in what you believe is your identity then you simply would not choose to end your life. The real story behind this whole mess is why the student chose to kill himself. The embarassment alone of the invasion of privacy simply cannot be enough to bring on a suicide attempt.

    All this talk I hear about buillying in the media and whether or not it should be a crime makes me puke. At some point you have to take a stand for yourself and if it means kicking some ass than do it. Legislation is not intended to micromanage our lives.

  20. #20
    Super Moderator Site Moderator JohnMichael's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Robert-The-Rambler
    If you truly believe in what you think you are in what you believe is your identity then you simply would not choose to end your life. The real story behind this whole mess is why the student chose to kill himself. The embarassment alone of the invasion of privacy simply cannot be enough to bring on a suicide attempt.

    All this talk I hear about buillying in the media and whether or not it should be a crime makes me puke. At some point you have to take a stand for yourself and if it means kicking some ass than do it. Legislation is not intended to micromanage our lives.

    Your response makes me puke. Have you been bullied? Did it happen in your early teen years? Did you have to face it every school day for years? Did it happen in front of thousands of your classmates? I will be interested in your response.
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    Romanticist Philosopher
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    Lightbulb I'm going to have to avoid this disaster

    Quote Originally Posted by JohnMichael
    Your response makes me puke. Have you been bullied? Did it happen in your early teen years? Did you have to face it every school day for years? Did it happen in front of thousands of your classmates? I will be interested in your response.
    How the hell do you plan on stopping the bullying? It starts with you and when it gets serious enough you have to get your family and friends involved and if it gets into real criminal behavior you have to notify the police. Things only get worse when you don't handle them quickly. I never dealt with long term bullying. I'm generally easy to get along with. A baseball teammate of mine was giving me a hard time in middle school years ago and would do stuff like steal my lunch or kick me out of my seat. I stole some of his lunch got detention saying that the fries tasted good and then I proceeded to outplay him and steal the starting centerfield position. Naturally he was no longer a problem. If fact he said probably the most interesting thing to me years later when I happen to see him in a supermarket. He wondered if I was still playing ball and I said just softball and he said man I thought you were going pro. It just drives me crazy when somebody kills themself. A movie like Better Off Dead comes to mind. There is just so many things worth living for. And there are worse things than getting an intimate encounter broadcast on the web. How bout not having an intimate encounter to get broadcast? I think Yes is wrong about being an owner of a lonely heart. That sucks even worse. I kept to myself in high school and I heard the whispers about being gay or whatever but I never let that stuff get to me.

    Sometimes a good fight is all you need to restore your confidence. A "George McFly" moment if you understand I think is what everybody needs to get their confident juices flowing. It doesn't necessarily have to be a physical altercation. I almost got in a fight in a religious education class when some kid called me meek because I was soft spoken in the classes. I hated that religious crap so it was amazing that I even kept my eyes open much less could speak loudly enough. I can't remember the conversation with the Sisters after the incident. Nobody should ever kill themself. It really is a sin and the pain it causes to the ones who love you is everlasting. Suicide is the ultimate act of selfishness. But it is not a perfect world.

  22. #22
    Can a crooner get a gig? dean_martin's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Robert-The-Rambler
    If you truly believe in what you think you are in what you believe is your identity then you simply would not choose to end your life.

    The embarassment alone of the invasion of privacy simply cannot be enough to bring on a suicide attempt.

    Legislation is not intended to micromanage our lives.
    1. There are many historical examples of suicides for cause, i.e., the taking of one's own life to demonstrate a strong belief for or against something, so your generalization in your first statement is false. (I certainly don't condone such conduct, but its existence proves that your statement is too broad.)

    2. Your second statement quoted above is an erroneous declaration of an absolute truth without any substantial proof - a declaration for which there probably won't be any direct proof for or against because the only person who could support or refute your statement is no longer with us. We can however interview those who knew him best and research and compare prior similar incidents to attempt to infer conclusions. My hypothesis prior to conducting such interviews and research would be that an involuntary public revelation of sexual conduct historically criticized and demonized in this country could probably (more likely than not) give rise to suicidal ideation. Couple that revelation with constant harassment, intimidation, etc. based on sexual preference, if such occurred, and the chance of acting on that suicidal ideation more than likely increases.

    3. Your third statement is another generalization. The content of individual statutes determines whether our lives are being micromanaged in the particular area addressed by the statute. Criminal statutes that enhance penalties for crimes motivated by differences in race, gender and sexual preference attach to conduct that is already deemed a crime. Commit a crime worthy of incarceration and your ass will be micromanaged. "Bullying" probably takes many forms many of which are already criminalized and some of which we probably haven't seen yet. I'm not sure we can reach all forms with criminal statutes but we should be vigilant in protecting people from harm.

    On a personal note, my disdain for governmental micromanagement is pretty much limited to consumerism. I'd like to be able to buy the same stuff in my state that others can. I have no desire to "bully", intimidate or harass anyone.

  23. #23
    Super Moderator Site Moderator JohnMichael's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Robert-The-Rambler
    How the hell do you plan on stopping the bullying? It starts with you and when it gets serious enough you have to get your family and friends involved and if it gets into real criminal behavior you have to notify the police. Things only get worse when you don't handle them quickly. I never dealt with long term bullying. I'm generally easy to get along with. A baseball teammate of mine was giving me a hard time in middle school years ago and would do stuff like steal my lunch or kick me out of my seat. I stole some of his lunch got detention saying that the fries tasted good and then I proceeded to outplay him and steal the starting centerfield position. Naturally he was no longer a problem. If fact he said probably the most interesting thing to me years later when I happen to see him in a supermarket. He wondered if I was still playing ball and I said just softball and he said man I thought you were going pro. It just drives me crazy when somebody kills themself. A movie like Better Off Dead comes to mind. There is just so many things worth living for. And there are worse things than getting an intimate encounter broadcast on the web. How bout not having an intimate encounter to get broadcast? I think Yes is wrong about being an owner of a lonely heart. That sucks even worse. I kept to myself in high school and I heard the whispers about being gay or whatever but I never let that stuff get to me.

    Sometimes a good fight is all you need to restore your confidence. A "George McFly" moment if you understand I think is what everybody needs to get their confident juices flowing. It doesn't necessarily have to be a physical altercation. I almost got in a fight in a religious education class when some kid called me meek because I was soft spoken in the classes. I hated that religious crap so it was amazing that I even kept my eyes open much less could speak loudly enough. I can't remember the conversation with the Sisters after the incident. Nobody should ever kill themself. It really is a sin and the pain it causes to the ones who love you is everlasting. Suicide is the ultimate act of selfishness. But it is not a perfect world.


    You are obviously unaware of how severe bullying can be. As a young gay teen it is usually not about lunches stolen but about many in your class turning against you. While trying to figure out why your feelings and desires are so different from your friends on top of starting puberty and dealing with those changes you become the object of ridicule and hate. Sure run for help but to whom. Will your parents reject you? As we know some parents reject their gay children. You might go to a teacher who due to their own bias may be less than helfpful.

    When you face that much revulsion every day and sometimes for years you find yourself questioning if all those students can be wrong. Maybe I am what they say I am. Maybe I would be better off dead. You would be surprised what dealing with all that ugliness will do to your thought process. But after all you had a lunch stolen.
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  24. #24
    Musicaholic Forums Moderator ForeverAutumn's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Robert-The-Rambler
    If you truly believe in what you think you are in what you believe is your identity then you simply would not choose to end your life.
    I have to say that I think that you are wrong about that. If you truly believe in your identity, and you also believe that society is full of bigots who will never accept you for who you know you are, I think that suicide is a rational solution. Why would anyone want to live in a world where they believe that they will never be accepted and they are ridiculed and picked-on regularly for who they KNOW they are. That person knows that he will never change. And he also knows that the bigots and bullies are not likely to ever change. The question becomes, can he lead a happy life? And if not, is the life that he will lead, worth living?

    All this talk I hear about buillying in the media and whether or not it should be a crime makes me puke. At some point you have to take a stand for yourself and if it means kicking some ass than do it.
    Not everyone has the strength to stand up for themselves. This was a young man in college. He may not have had the depth of experience and self-assurance required to stand up to his abusers. And bullies are abusers.

    Legislation is not intended to micromanage our lives.
    You're right. Legislation is, however, intended to protect citizens.

    It really is a sin and the pain it causes to the ones who love you is everlasting. Suicide is the ultimate act of selfishness.
    I happen to not agree with that statement, but let's assume that its true. Just imagine how tormented a person must be to want to end his or her life. Happy people don't commit suicide.

    Whether or not this boy committed suicide doesn't change the fact that the people who video taped him and played it on the internet, broke laws and infringed on this boy's rights. If this was done solely because he is gay, I believe that a hate crime was committed. His death just makes it better fodder for the media, but it doesn't change the crime.
    Last edited by ForeverAutumn; 10-06-2010 at 05:56 AM.

  25. #25
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    Quote Originally Posted by RGA
    It's a biological 100% FACT that it is not a choice.

    It's not a choice - but try and tell the fanatics this. Because gee if it IS Biology which it IS, then that means homosexuals were BORN that way and if they were BORN that way in God's image then God might just be a homosexual drag queen. I would soooo love it if he was. The looks on the nutters faces at the Pearly Gates (which might explain why they're pearly) would be so awesome.

    In certain ways the gay brain could be argued to be evolutionarily superior to the heterosexual brain (and has been argued by some) and while that is a bit of a leap it has some credibility.

    Regardless Homosexuality is NOT a choice - they were born that way - and that's a problem for religion because that means God made them that way on purpose. So they can't handle it - they'd have to re-adjust yet another stupid belief system that fills every page of the Bible.


    "A UK scientist said this was evidence sexual orientation was set in the womb.

    Scientists have noticed for some time that homosexual people of both sexes have differences in certain cognitive abilities, suggesting there may be subtle differences in their brain structure.

    This is the first time, however, that scientists have used brain scanners to try to look for the source of those differences.

    A group of 90 healthy gay and heterosexual adults, men and women, were scanned by the Karolinska Institute scientists to measure the volume of both sides, or hemispheres, of their brain.

    When these results were collected, it was found that lesbians and heterosexual men shared a particular "asymmetry" in their hemisphere size, while heterosexual women and gay men had no difference between the size of the different halves of their brain.

    In other words, structurally, at least, the brains of gay men were more like heterosexual women, and gay women more like heterosexual men.

    A further experiment found that in one particular area of the brain, the amygdala, there were other significant differences.

    In heterosexual men and gay women, there were more nerve "connections" in the right side of the amygdala, compared with the left.

    The reverse, with more neural connections in the left amygdala, was the case in homosexual men and heterosexual women.

    The Karolinska team said that these differences could not be mainly explained by "learned" effects, but needed another mechanism to set them, either before or after birth.

    'Fight, flight or mate'

    Dr Qazi Rahman, a lecturer in cognitive biology at Queen Mary, University of London, said that he believed that these brain differences were laid down early in foetal development.

    "As far as I'm concerned there is no argument any more - if you are gay, you are born gay," he said.

    The amygdala, he said, was important because of its role in "orientating", or directing, the rest of the brain in response to an emotional stimulus - be it during the "fight or flight" response, or the presence of a potential mate.

    "In other words, the brain network which determines what sexual orientation actually 'orients' towards is similar between gay men and straight women, and between gay women and straight men.

    "This makes sense given that gay men have a sexual preference which is like that of women in general, that is, preferring men, and vice versa for lesbian women."

    http://news.bbc.co.uk/2/hi/health/7456588.stm
    http://playthink.wordpress.com/2008/...the-gay-brain/
    http://www.pnas.org/content/102/20/7...urcetype=HWCIT
    http://news.bbc.co.uk/2/hi/health/7456588.stm

    The fact that this is even a debate any more is yet another reason that religion holds the entire human race back in a moral and ethical stone age.
    Have not looked at this thread for a few days but just read this response.

    Just this morning NPR News had a clip of some fanatical Black pastor/minister-whatever that was preaching about how bad being gay is and that you deserve to die if your gay and that if you believe yourself to be gay you are calling God a liar because he did not create gay people, only heteros.

    The whole pc was about the fact that largely or all black congregations routinely preach and demoralize gays, and have a don't ask-don't tell policy from it's members so if one is gay and at that church, they have to listen to their own leader trash talk them.

    The Book is NOT meant to be read or taken literally. It is all messages and correspondences and open for multiple interpretations.

    I have really had it with fanatical religion. In this case, the fanatical Christians are no better than the fanatical Muslims. The Christians terrorize people going to clinics, they even bomb the places and kill the doctors. How the heck does that make any sense of what is supposedly taught in the Book?

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