Toshiba fights back......well kind of

[Sir Terrence the Terrible]

Yeah, if only that were true. Don't even try to come off as the nice guy in this because the post is littered with insults. Here's a sampling:

Well cry me a river. Do you want me to get you mommy to change your pampers. If you cannot take it, do not dish it out. Its just that simple.

And I'm not even going to address the way you stereotype computer geeks (which, by the way, I am not). But What is most galling is the condescending tone you take in everyone of your posts. It's insulting and speaks volumes of your inferiority complex. I mean, not only do you call yourself "Sir Terrence The Terrible, The Cavalier" but what's with the one-upsmanship? e.g:

Your online psychology sucks bones. You have a huge problem with going personal when you cannot debate the issue. When you get stuck, you turn on the person and begin psycho-analysis. You are as lousy at this as you are predicting trends in the video market. How one can take a moniker and turn it into all this is weird, stupid, and always inaccurate. Much like your predictions.

And once again(because you are so gruesa cabeza). The Cavaliers are a Drum and Bugle corps that I marched in and support. Not what I call myself. Is this clear to you? Do you have the brain capacity to seperate the two?

Are you going to follow that up with how much bigger your {daddy, car, member, whatever} is as well? A psychologist could write volumes about your insecurities. So before you go stereotyping everyone into evil computer geeks and good video collectors, you should really take a hard look in the mirror. I mean, do you wave your authentic Isildur sword up in the air when you type this stuff, or is it your Sith lightsaber? This isn't a crusade against the downloading hordes, lil't....

And what does this have to do with the topic at hand. I do not care about downloading or downloaders. I care about keeping people informed about movies on disc, because that is where we currently are. This site is about hometheater related stuff, not about computers or computer downloading. This topic is about Toshiba HD DVD fight, not about the downloading habit or equipment. Stay with the topic, or stay out of it.

At least, the one thing we now know is that I never lied about anything. Yes, you tried to come up with insinuations, suppositions, and conjectures, but really, lil't, nothing has stuck. Just drop it already. It only further convinces me how insecure you are.

You have lied. And when its pointed out, you go into denial. Just like a pathological liar does. Pathological liars do not know a lie from the truth, and that describes you perfectly.

OK, so now that we have that out of the way....

So now that we have finally heard your crying and moaning, we can finally talk about audio? Whew, I thought I was debating a woman for a second there.

What you are basically saying is that there are two types of people in the world: downloaders and collectors, right? Now w/o going into all the silly adjectives you used to describe these into good & evil, your basic assertion is that the video collectors will somehow, by some miraculous coup of mind-boggling economic reversal, save the movie industry from having to distribute video digitally? You assert that the downloaders are the minority and the collectors the majority of the folks out there, right?

According to all economic indicators, the downloaders are the minority and the collectors are the majority. In America $18 billion dollars versus $212 million. Now to most folks, this would seem apparent. To the dyslexic maybe not.

Nobody is trying to SAVE anyone. I am simply stating that folks who have purchased disc for the last 10 years are not going to magically or suddenly want to purchase a movie file. Renters and gamers may want to, but that does not discribe the general public at this point clear and simple. The links I posted support this, so now you just need to get to the realization that your analysis of where folks are is just wrong.

Getting to this good versus evil. I did not frame my arguement that way, you may interpret it that way(and you say I have an inferiority complex), but that is not how it is framed. This is a priority issue and nothing more. What a downloader is comfortable doing and accepting is far different than those who enjoy film and want to collect it to build a library. At this point people want to own disc, not files. All of the economic data points to this very clearly. Now if you cannot understand this, then clearly you need your processor checked.

Now you go on by saying that because the studios haven't figured out how to make money from downloading, but because they know how to make money off of disks, they will keep doing just that and maintain the huge margins they enjoyed during the glorious DVD years?

Once again because of you lack of understanding you are turning this on the studios. What you can seem to get in your thick head is the consumers are not clamoring for downloaded movies. Whether we are talking for rent or for purchase. All one has to do is look at the fact that in the same time that bluray has gone from zero to a $4 billion dollar market, the VOD and downloading of movies has remained stagnant in terms of dollars. The studio are looking at dollars, and dollars only. That is the bottom line. Now you may talk about traffic to free stuff, and free stuff via VOD, but that is not on the radar for a studio looking for alternative forms of income. What they want to see is the studio making more and more dollars on downloads. They want to see a healthy demand for downloaded movies. At this time they are seeing neither. The public chooses, and the studios follow the money. That is how Bluray beat HD DVD, and that is how downloaders will have to convince the studios to support downloading.

Well, I'll stop there, because unlike you, I don't feel it serves anyone but you to keep arguing point-for-point. Let me just finish with a few details:

- Slingboxes are hugely popular

Not selling at 35,000 units in three years of sales its not. Considering there have been 650,000 HD DVD players, 3.2 million bluray enabled PS3(in american only), and over 500,000 standalone bluray players sold in the same time frame(in america only), its a pimple on the a$$ of a poodle. I have yet to see a slimbox in anyones home, but I have seen bluray players though.

- Tivos are hugely popular

Tivo has had all kinds of problems financially. They sold their DVR at a loss for years, almost shut down operation in europe(they are greatly scaled back) and are losing ground to DVR's that are given away with set top satellite receivers. They are having all kinds of problems with marketing(this lifetime replacement thing is becoming a disaster), and even on hometheater websites it is not talk about at all. Somewhat popular, I can get with. Hugely popular, no way.

- External drives are plug & play (ahem, that's geek-talk for "simple to install")

Tell this to someone who doesn't know this. I have a external drive hooked to my PS3, and my computer. I do not see videophiles or collectors clamoring for these anywhere in their hometheaters.

- Your lack of understanding about hard drive technology is telling (and quite surprising really considering your line of work)

Your assumption about my lack of understanding is telling as well. This is a hometheater site, so do not expect me to go into my understanding of COMPUTERS here. When I visit sites that talk about computers, it will surprise you at what I know.

- Music on hard drives sans cd, is the norm nowadays (that right, people don't fear owning music digitally)

Movies on hard drives ARE NOT the norm. Since we are talking about movies and not music, you are off topic, and your assertions do not apply.

- The music studios fought downloads tooth & nail and lost

Pure ignorance. The music industry was fighting against music piracy, not legal and legit downloading. Considering that revenue from downloads does not come close to CD sales even in decline, makes it clear they have not lost yet. Can anyone say cart before horse? When the public stops buying CD(might be tough since you cannot propogate a DRM infested music file) demand more music available for downloading, and stop going to amazon or best buy to purchase disc, the record companies will follow the money. Right now they are following the money, and it is clear they are keeping their emphasis on the CD.

- Pirated content created the online music boom (yes, there are lost of differing opinions on this, but it's pretty much the white elephant in the room)

Yes there is a difference of opinion. You have the RIAA saying one thing to control content, and you have the analysts who say the RIAA is blowing smoke up everyones bum. However close scrutiny leans much more towards the analyst than the RIAA. Music is different from movies. Horses are different from cows, and computer geeks(and you are one) are different than videophiles and movie and film lovers and collectors.

- Computer-knowledgeable people far outnumber audio/videophiles

Irrelevant to the topic at hand. The two are so different they cannot even be compared. Unfortunately computer geeks don't buy music as much as audiophiles, and don't buy as many movies as videophiles. So they are basically irrelevant to the topic at hand.

- It is possible to be and audio-enthusiast and computer-enthusiast (just look at the other people on this forum)

I can look at myself, I do not need to look at others. However what I do with my computer, and with my hometheater are two different things. You cannot seem to understand this because there is no balance for you. Based on what you have posted, you know FAR more about computers than hometheater. And that isn't saying much because you know next to nothing about hometheater. Can anyone imagine using acoustical treatment to balance the output of each speaker? Nightliar can.

And I can go on with the fallacies in your theories, but I think this is enough to keep you ruminating for a while, and you'll probably add another ten pages of text to debate it - we all hope you'll restrain yourself. To quote John Stewart on Cross-fire: "just stop it."

When you stop lying(which will probably be never), when you stop mixing two different technologies into one bowl( I do not think you have the thinking capacity), and when you finally understand that you know far less about the film and video business than you are trying to portray, I will stop. However if you keep expousing FUD and foolishness over and over again, I will go 20 pages to beat you down through the core of this earth. Is that pretty clear to you?

[pixelthis]

Do you have any idea that there is a whole segment of people that think everything you named here is just average? Do you have the communication skills to discuss anything without name calling? Or should we just dismiss you as another immature 12 y/o?



That rediculous impossible standard is the standard for both Bluray and HD DVD. Any product that is going to capture the attention of the folks that drive the video market have to meet that standard or exceed it. There is no going backwards. The good enough folks have a much different mindset than the want the best folks.



You current rig would be considered average at best to quite a few videophiles. To joesixpack your system may be off the chain, but there is quite a few folks in this hobby who are not impressed with 720p as their highest resolution. Not when they have already been exposed to 1080p. There were a few panels and DLP's that could not take a 1080p input, but the lions share now can. 1080p projectors can except a 1080p signal, and that is what videophiles use, not 50" plasma or LCD panels.




Anyone who has looked at 1080p images on a properly calibrated display device knows that 1080p is not an incremental increase over 720p. It is twice the resolution, and that is quite noticeable. Working stiffs do not drive technology, they are laggerds behind the trend setters. That's a fact.



Anyone who uses a store as a critical viewing space is not very bright. Stores do not calibrate their sets, and 99% of the display devices in stores are in the torch mode, too bright, has the wrong color temperature, and the gray scale is off. You have harsh lights reflecting off the screen, and more often than not you are too far to see the detail in a 1080p image. If you think that bluray at 1920x1080p with bitrates up to 54mbps looks the same as the typical broadcast resolution of 1440x1080p with a average bitrate of 14.4mbps you are blind as a bat. I am willing to believe based on what you have posted that your set is not properly calibrated. That is the only way you can make the statements you do.



Woooopie!!! Like I have said, your ceiling is my floor.



As I have said, there is good enough(you and your friends) and those who want the best of the best(that would be most videophiles). The folks that actually drive the video business are not the good enough folks. Sorry.



If you claim that ones system is "imaginary", can't that same claim be thrown back in your shortsighted face? How you can make this statement and keep a straight face is beyond me. You know peoples committment to their hobby by how much they are willing to spend to get the best performance there is. I am not disputing or contesting your committment to what you have done, I am stating that what you call quality is not what I call quality. You are at good enough, I am at getting the best. 720p is good enough for you, its not for me. Its just that simple. You cannot say your system is more of a committment than mine. You have no clue how much blood and sweat I have put into my system do you?



I am not oblivious to VOD, I am realistic about it. VOD is not where the studio I work for is putting their resources. It is not where the hollywood studios as a whole are putting their resources. The studio put their resources where the greatest return will come. Based on their actions, its bluray. Warner has basically settled this, so we can effectively move out of the war mode, and into the replacement mode. You are apparently still stuck in the war mode, move on, its over.



VOD is no competition to disc SALES. Since you do not work in my field or industry, you do not understand that this has been researched over and over again. People who use VOD are not quality oriented, the are convience oriented. They are not buyers, they are renters. Two different types of consumer. Most studios have a plan to replace DVD. They have transition from VHS to DVD. What they did then is simply release the DVD first with a large advertising campaign promoting the extra features and better PQ and SQ, and release the VHS later that was basically featureless. They know how to run their business, you don't.

Run it into the ground.
Sony , (which I am guessing is your company) knows NOTHING about marketing,
and if you're in the marketing dept thats understandable.
THEY put out a videotape player that recorded 1:30 in a 2:00 movie world,
and lost hundreds of millions as a result.
Poured millions into minidisc right when solid state and miniharddrive players were on the horizion.
And El-cassette, well, lets not go there.
You're a prime example, talking about "renters" and "buyers".
There arent two categeories, most people are BOTH.
Talledega nights, a nice piece of fluff, but do I want to shell out the cash to own a copy?
Heck no! Is a pristine picture a high priority on this sitcom on screen?
A decent pq is fine for this.
But bladerunner, cinema paradisio, after dark, fight club, etc, those I want a copy of.
All I am saying is that vod and downloading was big at CES, for rental this is the future for most, and that will hurt the rental stores, where a lot of copies of movies are sold.
The future for any disc format is the collector, you have admitted this so why are you arguing with me?
My main point is that what is the format for collectors going to be?
For a lot of collectors, especially with DVD collections, DVD will do fine.
For a new format the improvement is going to be incremental, and for most that dont have the latest tech It wont even be that.
Basically Sony and other blu types need to buy marketshare, fast, find some way to end this "war" faster than it is ending, or they are going to be like SACD and DVDAUDIO,
selling to a small market of highq types, while the rest of the world is happy with
dvd and VOD. On my upscaler DVD is smooth but not much better than regular,
but a real improvement in upscaling would kill BLU, people could get a vast improvement on their current collections, and download casual fare.
Basically Sony better get their act together, its a changing world, and they will get caught with their pants down (again) if they dont watch it

[pixelthis]

And a word about watching displays in the store, where do you want me to watch them,
Einstein?
Clearly you werent paying attention, you mention 1080p, I was talking about watching Blu on 720p.
On 720p the improvement is incremental, and unless I hit a high odds superfecta
at the track 720 will be my world for awhile, and that is STILL better than most,
on such a display the incentive to "go blu" isnt that great.
And I HAVE MADE MORE THAN a few salesclerks jaws drop when I have adjusted their sets, I go into the darkened HT section, pick out a set, drop the contrast and backlight to 50%, sure you cant calibrate it in the store but you can get it pretty good if you know what you're doing, and I KNOW what I am doing, and on demo material I bring, I know
pretty close what it should look like.
Why dont you stick to the subject and quit trying to kill the messenger , wiseguy?

[pixelthis]

Wich direction do you think that market is moving in? Are there more and more larger HD screens being bought, or fewer? Are smaller TV's selling in higher numbers this year or last? Are the cable companies switching from HD to std, or the other way?

they are switching to HD, they have no choice really, what with direct TV going crazy with all of the HD channels.
I'm giving them A chance to upgrade, but that 100+ channels on direct tv is loking better and better all of the time.
Sci0fi so far is the best, the quality is superb, and history, national geo, etc are all fun,
and great what with the writers strike drying up the networks.
And the trend is toward bigger screens, flat ones, and you are really going to get HD with the new set you buy, that is the new broadcast standard, no SD flatties being made
above 20in or so

[GMichael]

they are switching to HD, they have no choice really, what with direct TV going crazy with all of the HD channels.
I'm giving them A chance to upgrade, but that 100+ channels on direct tv is loking better and better all of the time.
Sci0fi so far is the best, the quality is superb, and history, national geo, etc are all fun,
and great what with the writers strike drying up the networks.
And the trend is toward bigger screens, flat ones, and you are really going to get HD with the new set you buy, that is the new broadcast standard, no SD flatties being made
above 20in or so

Scifi is the best there? It's still std def here.

[JSE]

Scifi is the best there? It's still std def here.

I get SciFI in HD but HD does not make crappy movies good. Oiy.

[GMichael]

I get SciFI in HD but HD does not make crappy movies good. Oiy.

There are still a few shows I like to watch on Sci-fi. HD would be prefered.

[Mr Peabody]

Interesting development, HBO offering content on broadband in test markets.
http://www.electronichouse.com/artic...d_service/C157

Did Pix actually hint he would switch from cable to Directv? Quick! Take a temperature reading in hell.

Sci fi is still standard on Dish as well

[Sir Terrence the Terrible]

Run it into the ground.
Sony , (which I am guessing is your company) knows NOTHING about marketing,
and if you're in the marketing dept thats understandable.

I do not work for Sony, want to try again??

THEY put out a videotape player that recorded 1:30 in a 2:00 movie world,
and lost hundreds of millions as a result.
Poured millions into minidisc right when solid state and miniharddrive players were on the horizion.
And El-cassette, well, lets not go there.

They also invented the walkman portable cassette and cd and that made them millions. And if you think beta was a bomb, take your sorry a$$ to any television station or movie studio all over the world and you will see them everywhere. They didn't lose hundreds of millions, they made billions off the beta. It was more expensive than VHS, and they have sold millions of the recorders all over the world. Get your facts straight.

You're a prime example, talking about "renters" and "buyers".
There arent two categeories, most people are BOTH.

Not according to extensive research conducted by all of the major studios. One will always have an emphasis over the other. Collectors occasionally rent, but mostly buy. Renters rent and occasionally buy. One is looking for a night of entertainment, the other is looking for good titles for their collection. Two different schools of thought.

Talledega nights, a nice piece of fluff, but do I want to shell out the cash to own a copy?
Heck no! Is a pristine picture a high priority on this sitcom on screen?
A decent pq is fine for this.

This is your opinion, and your opinion only. Others may have a completely different opinion than yours. Your opinion is not universal, and cannot be interpreted as such.

But bladerunner, cinema paradisio, after dark, fight club, etc, those I want a copy of.

Great, and other may not like any of these movies. I wouldn't want fight club in HD, it is not my kind of movie.

All I am saying is that vod and downloading was big at CES, for rental this is the future for most, and that will hurt the rental stores, where a lot of copies of movies are sold.
The future for any disc format is the collector, you have admitted this so why are you arguing with me?

VOD has been big at CES for years, yet it hasn't really blown up in the publics eye. If it had, then you would see a steady incline in revenue for both the cable companies and the studio themselves. Did you ever wonder why the cable companies are promoting it so heavily? That is because they are trying to generate interest that is not currently there.

I am not disagreeing about VOD effect on renting. However there is absolutely no evidence at this point that people are turning to VOD over renting a disc from netflix of blockbuster. Their disc rental business is doing very well, their downloading only so so. You are saying that downloading is the wave of the future. I am saying it will be a long while for that culture shift to take place. People have been owning disc since vinyl came into the picture. It is going to take a long time to get them use to managing a file as opposed to a disc.

My main point is that what is the format for collectors going to be?
For a lot of collectors, especially with DVD collections, DVD will do fine.
For a new format the improvement is going to be incremental, and for most that dont have the latest tech It wont even be that.

It is incremental to you because you are not taking advantage of all the resolution there is. A panel that has to downrez a 1080p signal to 720p is not going to look nearly as good as a panel that does 1080p pixel for pixel. So you are making a judgement out of weakness, not out of a strength. Those of us(and there is many more than you think sir) that have been exposed to 1080p pixel for pixel and have the ability to see the effect of downscaling know this. Your panel most likely is not calibrated, so your opinion is not totally informed, it is just your guessing. 1080p has twice the information, more than twice the pixel count of 720p, so you are actually missing information that is on the disc.

Basically Sony and other blu types need to buy marketshare, fast, find some way to end this "war" faster than it is ending, or they are going to be like SACD and DVDAUDIO,
selling to a small market of highq types, while the rest of the world is happy with
dvd and VOD.

This 'war" is over. It is over, get that through your head. Bluray already has six times the shelf space in stores that DVD-A and SACD every had. Bluray has far more promotion of its product that DVD-A and SACD ever had. Bluray has far more of the support both manufacturing and studio than DVD-A and SACD ever had. Bluray has already sold more disc than both DVD-A and SACD combined times 10. Bluray has already sold more players than DVD-A and SACD equipt players, and is a larger market currently by 4 times that both SACD and DVD-A combined. Rather than just brainless repeating a montra that you have heard, stop and critically think about bluray in relationship to DVD-A and SACD. Bluray is just plain further along than DVD-A and SACD. It is a long way from a niche product. A good example of a niche video product would be the Laserdisc. Only two million players sold in America in twenty years of existance. Bluray has already surpassed two million players(via the PS3) months ago.

On my upscaler DVD is smooth but not much better than regular,
but a real improvement in upscaling would kill BLU, people could get a vast improvement on their current collections, and download casual fare.
Basically Sony better get their act together, its a changing world, and they will get caught with their pants down (again) if they dont watch it

Your analysis of the video market is as flawed as nightliars. An upscaled DVD image is no competition to bluray. An upscaled DVD is still 480i no matter how you slice it. That is still six times LESS information than 1080p. Some DVD's upscales look worse than they did not scaled. Anyone can see the improvement of a upscaled DVD image next to a 1080p image.

Downloading to own is not taking off, bluray is. Downlaoding to own has killed off at least three services, bluray is growing. By the time downloading to own takes off, bluray will have such a deep penetration in the video market that it will be tough for downloading to get a foot hold. Downloading to own is just not here yet, bluray is here.

[Sir Terrence the Terrible]

And a word about watching displays in the store, where do you want me to watch them,
Einstein?

You watch them in a environment condusive to getting an accurate opinion. What the hell good is comparing televisions in bright harsh light, in the torch mode, with the color and grayscale off and thinking you have done a decent comparison in a store? That is amatuerish at best. This is another example of good enough, but not searching for the best. Another two different schools of thought/

Clearly you werent paying attention, you mention 1080p, I was talking about watching Blu on 720p.
On 720p the improvement is incremental, and unless I hit a high odds superfecta
at the track 720 will be my world for awhile, and that is STILL better than most,
on such a display the incentive to "go blu" isnt that great.

What you cannot grasp is that watching bluray downrezzed to 720p is throwing away information on the disc. Most people think that 720p is HD lite. But one can agree it is in the lower echlon of what HD really is in terms of picture quality. Like I have told you before, another mans ceiling is another floor. When you get that, you'll understand why your opinion and mine are so different.

And I HAVE MADE MORE THAN a few salesclerks jaws drop when I have adjusted their sets, I go into the darkened HT section, pick out a set, drop the contrast and backlight to 50%, sure you cant calibrate it in the store but you can get it pretty good if you know what you're doing, and I KNOW what I am doing, and on demo material I bring, I know
pretty close what it should look like.
Why dont you stick to the subject and quit trying to kill the messenger , wiseguy?

When you do what you propose, you are just scratching the surface. Without calibration tools and access to the user menu, you are just guessing. Backlights are a bandaid, and no serious videophile would use a panel that required a backlight to get the contrast right. If this is your approach, you don't know what you are doing quite frankly. You think you know, but ISF calibration goes far beyond guessing the correct color temperature, not even touching the greyscales, getting contrast in the ballpark but not actually getting it accurate, or correctly adjusting the brightness so shadow detail is corrected. What you are doing ain't $hit compared to the real thing. So stop faking like you know what you are talking about, and get real. Some of us are not fooled by your amatuerish approach to proper calibration. Get this in your head, you little bandaid calibration process couldn't bust a grape in a wine factory in terms of getting picture quality "right".

[Mr Peabody]

I find it hard to believe that Blu-ray players have out sold SACD already. I'm not saying it isn't true because I don't know but when I think about how many universal and combo players are out that do SACD, it's just hard to believe with BR going into only it's 3rd generation. If it is true you'd think the software sales would be higher.

[GMichael]

I find it hard to believe that Blu-ray players have out sold SACD already. I'm not saying it isn't true because I don't know but when I think about how many universal and combo players are out that do SACD, it's just hard to believe with BR going into only it's 3rd generation. If it is true you'd think the software sales would be higher.

Don't most BR players also play SACD's? I know my PS3 does.

[Mr Peabody]

From what I understand the PS3 is the only one that does play SACD. I can't believe the PS3 and Sony's other BR machines come from the same company, or should I say have the same name, I doubt they actually come from the same company, maybe same umbrella.

I ran across and interesting thing about the PS3 when researching HDMI switchers, it seems that several have a problem passing the PS3 signal where they will other HD content. If anyone is interested Oppo has one that rocks at $99.95, does remoter or auto with a priority port for satelite/cable boxes that remain on all the time. The boxes go into "low priority" to relinquish signal when one of the higher ports senses a signal.

One other interesting thing I saw while researching, a few reviewers actually said they bought the PS3 just for Blu-ray playback. I can't remember which thread the big numbers war was raging but apparently the PS3 is known for BR playback and purchased specifically for it.

[GMichael]

One other interesting thing I saw while researching, a few reviewers actually said they bought the PS3 just for Blu-ray playback. I can't remember which thread the big numbers war was raging but apparently the PS3 is known for BR playback and purchased specifically for it.

I've seen the same results on a few forums.

[Sir Terrence the Terrible]

I find it hard to believe that Blu-ray players have out sold SACD already. I'm not saying it isn't true because I don't know but when I think about how many universal and combo players are out that do SACD, it's just hard to believe with BR going into only it's 3rd generation. If it is true you'd think the software sales would be higher.

Mr. Peabody. They have. You have to remember that universal playback is not a feature that the ordinary consumer wanted, or was found at price points that most consumer purchased at. Universal players were marketed to the audiophile, with DVD playback to boot. This market is much smaller than the market of early adopter to both bluray and HD DVD. Dedicated DVD-A and SACD players represent an even smaller market.

For all intended purposes the PS3 is a bluray player. And when you count them along with standalones, it is almost 10-1 ratio of bluray players versus universal and dedicated DVD-A and SACD players worldwide.

[Sir Terrence the Terrible]

From what I understand the PS3 is the only one that does play SACD. I can't believe the PS3 and Sony's other BR machines come from the same company, or should I say have the same name, I doubt they actually come from the same company, maybe same umbrella.

Well you kinda have to give sony a break on this one. All the things that are required of the PS3 require large amounts of processing. The Cell is more powerful by a long way than any of the standalones on the market now. It has to be. In order to keep the price down(which you know was a PS3 problem to gamers) you cannot put a Cell processor in any standalone. So it is understandable that the PS3 would be better than standalones are.

I ran across and interesting thing about the PS3 when researching HDMI switchers, it seems that several have a problem passing the PS3 signal where they will other HD content. If anyone is interested Oppo has one that rocks at $99.95, does remoter or auto with a priority port for satelite/cable boxes that remain on all the time. The boxes go into "low priority" to relinquish signal when one of the higher ports senses a signal.

Good call on the Oppo. I bought two so I could split each of the two HDMI inputs at my receiver into 6 inputs at the oppos. Works like a charm, even with the PS3.

One other interesting thing I saw while researching, a few reviewers actually said they bought the PS3 just for Blu-ray playback. I can't remember which thread the big numbers war was raging but apparently the PS3 is known for BR playback and purchased specifically for it.

This is why I got mine. It was a no brainer even though I do not play games. Its a SACD player(of which it outperforms quite a few SACD players in sound, almost all of them on paper), it is the most upgradeable player on the market (it can decode all of the audio formats (when Dts MA Lossless upgrade comes), its video and audio performance can be improved by firmware upgrades(the upconversion of CD upgrade really came in handy, and the 24fps did as well), and it is a profile 2.0 player from day one(with upcoming BD live firmware upgrade), you can use it to stream audio from the internet(Pandora is a hit in my hometheater as a before movie music), store music on its hardrive, in the future you will be able to connect a HD tuner and use the enternal drive to store shows, and via its USB ports connect a external drive for extra storage. The benefits of this thing was worth the $499 I plunked down for it. Gamers would not use most of this stuff, so I can understand them not being able to justify the earlier price of $599. But to me, it is worth that price.

[pixelthis]

Scifi is the best there? It's still std def here.

I guess I am prejudiced because I am a big sci-fi fan.
The pq is great, watching atlantis and battlestar in HD is sublime.
But its downright weird watching a grade z picture and see jawdropping pq being
wasted on this crap.
THEY HAD a movie about area 51 (which had nothing to do with area 51) basically a bunch of aliens chasing each other, the movie sucked ass, but the quality was great!
But there is still a lot to enjoy, flash gordon, outer limits, even old episodes of twilight zone look great (anything done in film will be HD, basically)
They have gone a long way from incredible hulk episodes.
And evidently mr p thinks I am a cable fanboy, when nothing could be further from
the truth, its just that my once sucky cable company is actually trying to deliver a quality
product, and I beleive putting credit where credit is due

[pixelthis]

Sir Terrence the TerribleI do not work for Sony, want to try again??
Well ,let me know who you DO work for so I can stay the hell away from them


They also invented the walkman portable cassette and cd and that made them millions. And if you think beta was a bomb, take your sorry a$$ to any television station or movie studio all over the world and you will see them everywhere. They didn't lose hundreds of millions, they made billions off the beta. It was more expensive than VHS, and they have sold millions of the recorders all over the world. Get your facts straight.

I know all about the pro uses of BETA, and compared to the consumer market its peanuts,
and that was basically it. They didnt invent the CD, it was a group effort, but they did do CD text, which they charge so much for that basically the only CD's with CD text are sony products


Not according to extensive research conducted by all of the major studios. One will always have an emphasis over the other. Collectors occasionally rent, but mostly buy. Renters rent and occasionally buy. One is looking for a night of entertainment, the other is looking for good titles for their collection. Two different schools of thought.

two different schools of thought ? More like two different MOODS.
I'll rent something I just want to see for a night, but I WILL BUY SOMETHING I like a lot.
One doesnt preclude the other and the fact that you dont understand this speaks vollumes



This is your opinion, and your opinion only. Others may have a completely different opinion than yours. Your opinion is not universal, and cannot be interpreted as such.

In other words you dont like it so poo poo, never mind that a lot share my opinion



Great, and other may not like any of these movies. I wouldn't want fight club in HD, it is not my kind of movie.

But you would rent it for a first view, which is what I am saying



VOD has been big at CES for years, yet it hasn't really blown up in the publics eye. If it had, then you would see a steady incline in revenue for both the cable companies and the studio themselves. Did you ever wonder why the cable companies are promoting it so heavily? That is because they are trying to generate interest that is not currently there.

I am not disagreeing about VOD effect on renting. However there is absolutely no evidence at this point that people are turning to VOD over renting a disc from netflix of blockbuster. Their disc rental business is doing very well, their downloading only so so. You are saying that downloading is the wave of the future. I am saying it will be a long while for that culture shift to take place. People have been owning disc since vinyl came into the picture. It is going to take a long time to get them use to managing a file as opposed to a disc.

Tell that to people who are trying to keep dying CD sales active, tell millions of ipod users
that they are having "trouble" managing files. And keep your head in the sand, BTW



It is incremental to you because you are not taking advantage of all the resolution there is. A panel that has to downrez a 1080p signal to 720p is not going to look nearly as good as a panel that does 1080p pixel for pixel. So you are making a judgement out of weakness, not out of a strength. Those of us(and there is many more than you think sir) that have been exposed to 1080p pixel for pixel and have the ability to see the effect of downscaling know this. Your panel most likely is not calibrated, so your opinion is not totally informed, it is just your guessing. 1080p has twice the information, more than twice the pixel count of 720p, so you are actually missing information that is on the disc.

Are you just simpleminded or what? THATS THE POINT.
No I am NOT taking advantage of the full rez of a Blu ray watching it on 720p, and since a 1080p isnt in the near future why bother GETTING Bluray?
And I have been exposed to 1080p pixel for pixel and it looks simply great , so can I borrow 3,400 bucks for a monitor, since in my size room it would take a 52in at least to see the difference?
And where is someone who works for a living getting this money, they are gonna pull it outta their butt?
thE ONLY sets that can even accept 1080p, (forget about 24p) came out this year,
a guy who bought a 1080p set LAST year (that cant even take a 1080p input ) or a guy like me who bought a 1366/ 766 ISNT GOING TO TRADE and pay several thousand
to see the improvement in bluray, wont happen , trust me.
Now you have a few on this board who have to have the latest toy, even with a 720p set they'll buy a blu disc player, people like mr p, but I dont beleive in buying capability I cant use.
And I know that Mr P will protest, proclaim new q that hes seeing, but he also paid several hundred for a power cord, hes' not exactly objective



This 'war" is over. It is over, get that through your head. Bluray already has six times the shelf space in stores that DVD-A and SACD every had. Bluray has far more promotion of its product that DVD-A and SACD ever had. Bluray has far more of the support both manufacturing and studio than DVD-A and SACD ever had. Bluray has already sold more disc than both DVD-A and SACD combined times 10. Bluray has already sold more players than DVD-A and SACD equipt players, and is a larger market currently by 4 times that both SACD and DVD-A combined. Rather than just brainless repeating a montra that you have heard, stop and critically think about bluray in relationship to DVD-A and SACD. Bluray is just plain further along than DVD-A and SACD. It is a long way from a niche product. A good example of a niche video product would be the Laserdisc. Only two million players sold in America in twenty years of existance. Bluray has already surpassed two million players(via the PS3) months ago.


Yeah, it won, and it is STILL in relativly the same place SACD was , since the VIDEO market is a lot bigger
And its gonna stay there because the same nimrods who created the biggest marketing
missfire in history are in charge of marketing IT , and the coming recession/ depression isnt going to help, so pardon if I am not quite as optimistic as you are


Your analysis of the video market is as flawed as nightliars. An upscaled DVD image is no competition to bluray. An upscaled DVD is still 480i no matter how you slice it. That is still six times LESS information than 1080p. Some DVD's upscales look worse than they did not scaled. Anyone can see the improvement of a upscaled DVD image next to a 1080p image.

Yep, and thats not what I AM ARGUING ABOUT.
New tech is possible that could extrapolate data and create an exelent pq from DVD,
this tech is out there , just too expensive , it hasnt been "chipped" yet,but it can be.
And again the number of people who have gone broke selling quality to joe sixpack is legion. On the other hand I remember sheets of cellophane with three bars of color on them, put them on a black and white set and its all of a sudden a "color" set!
They used to sell a ton of these things

Downloading to own is not taking off, bluray is. Downlaoding to own has killed off at least three services, bluray is growing. By the time downloading to own takes off, bluray will have such a deep penetration in the video market that it will be tough for downloading to get a foot hold. Downloading to own is just not here yet, bluray is here.[/QUOTE]


Again not what I am saying, DLD to own is aways off, but with the coming financial storm
people could just decide to make do and live with DVD for collecting and downloading
for rental, sure a Bluray is reletively cheap, but only to HT types, most dont want to pay over 50 to a 100 bucks for a disc player, and thats not the only cost, the biggest cost is the software, which could run into the thousands of dollars. DVD to collect and HD to download could be a choice made in hard financial times, especially since a lot already
have extensive DVD collections, and there is the usual crowd who will see blu as mearly a "gimmick" to get more of their money.
BASICALLY what I am saying is that the war isnt quite over, they are still selling HD players, its not over until tosh caves, they havent yet.
And in these troubled times Sony could wind up with yet another tecnological DO DO BIRD.
Especially with myopic types like you running things

[GMichael]

I guess I am prejudiced because I am a big sci-fi fan.
The pq is great, watching atlantis and battlestar in HD is sublime.
But its downright weird watching a grade z picture and see jawdropping pq being
wasted on this crap.
THEY HAD a movie about area 51 (which had nothing to do with area 51) basically a bunch of aliens chasing each other, the movie sucked ass, but the quality was great!
But there is still a lot to enjoy, flash gordon, outer limits, even old episodes of twilight zone look great (anything done in film will be HD, basically)
They have gone a long way from incredible hulk episodes.
And evidently mr p thinks I am a cable fanboy, when nothing could be further from
the truth, its just that my once sucky cable company is actually trying to deliver a quality
product, and I beleive putting credit where credit is due

Most of the good Sci-fi shows are rebroadcast on HDNET here. But they aren't this season's episodes. And the sequence is all out of order. I hate that. But yeah, they look stellar.
I wish the Sci-fi channel here would go HD. I do watch a few of their shows even though the video isn't so hot. HD would make me very happy.

I do know who Sir T works for. If he wants to tell you, he will. But it's not Sony.

[Mr Peabody]

I'd like to know who Sir T works for myself.

[pixelthis]

Most of the good Sci-fi shows are rebroadcast on HDNET here. But they aren't this season's episodes. And the sequence is all out of order. I hate that. But yeah, they look stellar.
I wish the Sci-fi channel here would go HD. I do watch a few of their shows even though the video isn't so hot. HD would make me very happy.

I do know who Sir T works for. If he wants to tell you, he will. But it's not Sony.

I seem to remember that he said that he worked for a bLU MARKETING GROUP.

With his knowledge of propaganda he probably has PRAVDA in his resume somewhere.
One thing for sure, he has the comprehension of your average brick wall.

And I get UHD, which had atlantis episodes, I guess HDNET stole them

[Rich-n-Texas]

Pix, you make it IMPOSSIBLE for anyone to like you. I've tried time after time to get along with you but make a wisecrack in your direction and it's full-bore attack mode. You critisize people for their spelling errors but you don't even know how to quote people properly. I make a joke about TI and silicon, and your immediate response is to insult the company. Did you know that once again TI is one of the top 100 companies to work for in the states? Did you know that TI is a leader in advancing the roles of minorities in corporate America? Did you know how diverse TI is with it's hiring practices? Do you have ANY idea how many MILLIONS of products TI has devices in? TI would never hire someone as socially inept as someone like you, and that speaks volumes about your personality. But you don't care, your MO never changes.

They teach arrogance at SMU. Is that where you went to college?

[Sir Terrence the Terrible]

Sir Terrence the TerribleI do not work for Sony, want to try again??
Well ,let me know who you DO work for so I can stay the hell away from them

Don't worry, they wouldn't let anyone like in the door.

I know all about the pro uses of BETA, and compared to the consumer market its peanuts,
and that was basically it. They didnt invent the CD, it was a group effort, but they did do CD text, which they charge so much for that basically the only CD's with CD text are sony products

Bull. While the price of VHS dropped, beta did not. They didn't need to sell as many beta deck to make as much money as VHS. If it didn't do well, why did it take them till 2002 to quit making it? Sony and Phlips developed the CD, and Sony had the lion share of the patents on the technology. Get your facts straight.

two different schools of thought ? More like two different MOODS.
I'll rent something I just want to see for a night, but I WILL BUY SOMETHING I like a lot.
One doesnt preclude the other and the fact that you dont understand this speaks vollumes

So you lead the American pack. What you do, all Americans do. Americans are so brainless that they look to you to get a cue on what to do. Riiiiiight, and I am a poor white man from the appalachians. If you thought for all Americans, there would be no America.

In other words you dont like it so poo poo, never mind that a lot share my opinion

I do not care what you do. You can flush your 51 y/o head down the toilet for all I care. But your opinion, and the data and facts do not agree. For me, this is never about you or anyone else I debate. It is about facts, and facts only. The fact is, you are either living on another planet, or you are living in another consciousness on this planet. People are not ready to purchase movie files. The data is clear. The surveys that have been done have pointed to this as well. Now if you think your opinion is more accurate than the facts, there is nothing I can say about that. I however choose the facts, not your opnion.

But you would rent it for a first view, which is what I am saying

I do not rent that much. And when I do, its the disc.

Tell that to people who are trying to keep dying CD sales active, tell millions of ipod users
that they are having "trouble" managing files. And keep your head in the sand, BTW

Even with sales declining for CD's, it is still a market that is almost 100 times the size of the downloading music market. Second, CD and music downloads are not movies. Can you understand the difference? When you buy a music as a download, you can move it from your computer to a single device. But it will not let you move it to other devices, especially as DRM to death as music files are. A download from one vendor does not work on the other(Apple files can only be used on apple products, microsoft files only on microsoft). This may work for music, but not having mobility with movie files is basically killing that market. Apple may allow you to move a movie file from your computer to your Ipod, but you cannot move it anywhere else. How do I watch that on my TV, when the file is stuck on the IPOD? Nobody is ready to trust their movie collections to a hard drive. Survey after survey has already proven this. With the evidence so overwhelming against downloading to own, it appears it you that has his head in the sand. A music file is not a movie file. They will never be the same. One is WAY smaller than the other, and the push in the video market is for larger screens and better sound, not the reverse.

Are you just simpleminded or what? THATS THE POINT.
No I am NOT taking advantage of the full rez of a Blu ray watching it on 720p, and since a 1080p isnt in the near future why bother GETTING Bluray?

Then YOU don't get bluray. But 1080p is here for the rest of us, and guess what, the public is buying it by the droves. Sales of 1080p panels have already caught up to 720p panels according to NDP, and will overtake 720p before the end of this year. This is pushing sales of bluray players, and after the warner annoucement, players are selling so well that the chipmakers are running short of chips. Nobody was prepared for the jump in sales of what you term as old technology. So just because you cannot take advantage of blurays resolution, does not mean that everyone has to dump bluray for downloads. And you call me thick headed old fool?

And I have been exposed to 1080p pixel for pixel and it looks simply great , so can I borrow 3,400 bucks for a monitor, since in my size room it would take a 52in at least to see the difference?

What are you, lazy? Get your own stuff. If this is not a priority for you, download. Downloads are perfect for you. The resolution fits your panel, and you first priority is not the best quality, its what you can afford. Any level headed person can understand this. But your lack does not mean you can spread untrue information just because you do not benefit from a technology.

And where is someone who works for a living getting this money, they are gonna pull it outta their butt?

I got to work just like everyone else does. Usually my money comes in the form of a direct deposit. I do not know of anyone that gets paid through the butt. I guess you are the first.

thE ONLY sets that can even accept 1080p, (forget about 24p) came out this year,
a guy who bought a 1080p set LAST year (that cant even take a 1080p input ) or a guy like me who bought a 1366/ 766 ISNT GOING TO TRADE and pay several thousand
to see the improvement in bluray, wont happen , trust me.

The sets that can accept 1080p came out the middle of last year, not just this year. The sets that could not accept 1080p natively could accept 1080i, and the television did the deinterlacing. So there is potentially no loss if the deinterlacing is done well. Based on what I see from sales of 1080p panels, somebody is buying them. They started outselling 720p panels in late November, and have almost caught total sales of 720p panels. So somebody is buying them, and they are buying alot of them at that.

Now you have a few on this board who have to have the latest toy, even with a 720p set they'll buy a blu disc player, people like mr p, but I dont beleive in buying capability I cant use.

That is you. Do you really think that you repesent everyone? People who want the technology will get it. People who want 1080p will get it. People who want a bluray will get it. Its not a priority for you, and I understand that. But what you are attempting to do is spread poison on bluray, just because you cannot get all of the resolution out of it. And the only source you can get the resolution is from downloads, and that is why you are pushing it. Very disengenous and selfish.

And I know that Mr P will protest, proclaim new q that hes seeing, but he also paid several hundred for a power cord, hes' not exactly objective

This sounds like jealousy to me. Why does buying a power cord make him not objective, yet you think you are being objective?

Yeah, it won, and it is STILL in relativly the same place SACD was , since the VIDEO market is a lot bigger
And its gonna stay there because the same nimrods who created the biggest marketing
missfire in history are in charge of marketing IT , and the coming recession/ depression isnt going to help, so pardon if I am not quite as optimistic as you are

So this is a perfect demonstration of what an idiot you are. Do you know that Sony is just one company out of 270 pushing bluray? Did you know that Pioneer has just as much a stake in this as Sony? Did you know that Panasonic has the majority of patents on bluray disc technology? Do you know that Disney has spent more money promoting bluray than any other studio has? Do you know the last recession we had back in the early 2000's didn't effect either player or disc sales of the DVD? They continued to grow year over year. Did you know that research has proven that home based video actually grows during recessions? Why? Because folks would rather cut out going out to dinner, cut back on trips, spend less on high ticket items, and do other cost cutting and stay home for their entertainment. That is why Warner made the decision to switch at the moment they did. If you are going to take advantage of your momentum, you have to do it at the right time.

Yep, and thats not what I AM ARGUING ABOUT.
New tech is possible that could extrapolate data and create an exelent pq from DVD,
this tech is out there , just too expensive , it hasnt been "chipped" yet,but it can be.
And again the number of people who have gone broke selling quality to joe sixpack is legion. On the other hand I remember sheets of cellophane with three bars of color on them, put them on a black and white set and its all of a sudden a "color" set!
They used to sell a ton of these things

Alot you know. There is nothing out there that can making a pig a runway model. Upscaling is the last thing you can do to smoothen out the rough edges of the DVD. That is it. So what do you do, create a product that can magically make 480 lines 1920 lines? The only way to go is up, not sideways. DVD as a format is not making the manufacturers any money, and the studios are beginning to lose money as well. The largest CE companies are acutally losing money producing players thanks to the Chinese with their cheap a$$ players flooding the market.

To compare a product like bluray to cellophane with color bars is like comparing your wacky opinions with facts and figures from NDP. Thats how far your analysis is off the mark

Again not what I am saying, DLD to own is aways off, but with the coming financial storm
people could just decide to make do and live with DVD for collecting and downloading
for rental, sure a Bluray is reletively cheap, but only to HT types, most dont want to pay over 50 to a 100 bucks for a disc player, and thats not the only cost, the biggest cost is the software, which could run into the thousands of dollars.

Just to show you how stupid you sound. You are saying that folks are willing to pay for first broadband cable(for VOD or quicker downloading of movies from Apple), pay for TIVO or rent the box for VOD. What if they want to watch the movie twice. That is extra. What if cable goes out? They are $hit out of luck. What if what they want to see is on disc, but not on VOD or available for download?(there is a window the the disc is released before the download is availble whether talking VOD or downloading from the interent if you can get it at all). In the last recession they didn't do that, so what makes you think that in this recession they will? There is not indications right now things are headed that way at all. All one has to do is look at bluray sales post Warner announcement which have surprised everyone in the industry. DVD early in its life was cheap only to HT people, then it became affordable to everyone. The same will follow here. When folks see how devalued the studio are doing DVD, there interest will peak at bluray. Evidence of that is already showing up.

DVD to collect and HD to download could be a choice made in hard financial times, especially since a lot already
have extensive DVD collections, and there is the usual crowd who will see blu as mearly a "gimmick" to get more of their money.

It COULD be the choice, anything COULD be a choice right? You look at bluray as a gimmick, but I do not see anyone else looking at it that way. Is this more of what I do is what everyone does? Those who collect(much like myself) look at their collections to see what would benefit from the better PQ and SQ, and upgrade as such. There is plenty of research done that points to the fact that folks buy MORE discs during recessions than less. They buy fewer cars, fewer washing machine and dryers, spend less at Walmart for consumable goods, buy less clothes, eat out less, consume less gas, but buy more home media. Home entertainment rules in a recession, because in the long run, it is a cheaper form of entertainment that does not require them to leave the house. The studios are going to transition folks to bluray, and they have a plan to do so. There is already evidence this plan is working. The studio are not going to push downloading because they do not want to spend the money creating the market. They are completely satisfied with Microsoft and Apple building the market, and them taking it over when the demand is there.

BASICALLY what I am saying is that the war isnt quite over, they are still selling HD players, its not over until tosh caves, they havent yet.
And in these troubled times Sony could wind up with yet another tecnological DO DO BIRD.
Especially with myopic types like you running things

Pixel, you do not know your A$$ from a hole in the ground. THE WAR IS OVER. Toshiba is getting rid of inventory, Paramount is already releasing bluray disc in europe, and Universal will be making a move in the fall. Last week disc sales were 85-15 in favor of bluray. Why in the heck do you think that Toshiba is willing to lose $100 on each player sold, and why do you think that Amazon and Best buy are heavily discounting HD DVD products. They are doing it because the war is over, and they are making room for Bluray products which are selling, and which they make a larger profit from. Two major big box retailers are going total bluray. This is information that has already been confirmed, and if you look around, is already happening. It is fairly obvious you have not been looking around, because anyone who has can already see that Bluray is a loooooong way from a technological "do do bird".

I will tell you this, If I had a business, you would be the last person I would let run it. Your ignorance of market trends, the business on a more basic level, and your unwillingness to use surveys, facts or figures to shape your decision making process makes you unfit to run anything resembling a profitable business. Stick to posting your opinions on Audioreview, and please stay out of the video and film industry.

[Sir Terrence the Terrible]

I seem to remember that he said that he worked for a bLU MARKETING GROUP.

If this is what you remembered, then you have a VERY faulty little 51 y/o mind.

With his knowledge of propaganda he probably has PRAVDA in his resume somewhere.
One thing for sure, he has the comprehension of your average brick wall.

You probably do not have a resume because idiots are not employable. In order to say what I say is propaganda, you would have to have access to the same information I do. Since you don't, then what you are saying is a plain lie. I have been 100% correct in what I have stated. I told nightliar BEFORE Warner made their move that a major studio was going to back bluray exclusively. Guess what brightness, it did, because I knew the negotiation were taking place, and I knew the basis of which that decision would be based on. You however have made some pretty wild claims of which there is no evidence to even support its truths. My advice, stick to what you know so you don't look stupid, unless that is the effect you are tying to acheive.

If I have the comprehension of your average brick wall, then you have the comprehension of titainium. I know FAR, FAR more about the industry I work in than you will ever in your life. That's a fact. YOu stupid A$$ can't even get where I work right, and your memory makes crap up as well.

[Sir Terrence the Terrible]

Pix, you make it IMPOSSIBLE for anyone to like you. I've tried time after time to get along with you but make a wisecrack in your direction and it's full-bore attack mode. You critisize people for their spelling errors but you don't even know how to quote people properly. I make a joke about TI and silicon, and your immediate response is to insult the company. Did you know that once again TI is one of the top 100 companies to work for in the states? Did you know that TI is a leader in advancing the roles of minorities in corporate America? Did you know how diverse TI is with it's hiring practices? Do you have ANY idea how many MILLIONS of products TI has devices in? TI would never hire someone as socially inept as someone like you, and that speaks volumes about your personality. But you don't care, your MO never changes.

Some people feel that being a butt hole gets them more attention. I personally believe that butt holes should only get attention when something comes out of it, and it need to be cleaned up after.

They teach arrogance at SMU. Is that where you went to college?

If he did, I bet he was tops in his class.