Paramount and Dreamworks Go HD-DVD Exclusive

[Woochifer]

Just when it looked like the HD optical disc format war was all but over, Paramount and Dreamworks announced that they will drop their support for Blu-ray and go exclusively to HD-DVD. I've been saying all along that HD-DVD was pretty much a dead format walking unless something dramatically shifts the market structure. This clearly qualifies as a major change to the market structure.

Basically, Warner is now the only officially neutral studio left releasing titles in both Blu-ray and HD-DVD. But, given Warner's HD-DVD bias and clear motivation towards steering the market towards its hybrid TotalHD disc format, this puts the studio support on both sides nearly even, with Blu-ray still holding an advantage because of Sony/Fox/Disney's collective market share.

Obviously, there's a lot going on behind the scenes here, but it looks like now the format war will drag on indefinitely, which is not necessarily a good news for HD optical media in general. While the format war has pushed hardware prices down at a rapid rate, it has also kept consumers on the sidelines. And now it very well could wind up costing consumers more in the long run since the necessity for dual format players and/or dual format hybrid discs is more likely.

http://www.sfgate.com/cgi-bin/articl...=entertainment

[PeruvianSkies]

And this is why someone like Pixelthis can't claim that one will win over the other...there are just too many factors as this point that are happening.

[Woochifer]

And this is why someone like Pixelthis can't claim that one will win over the other...there are just too many factors as this point that are happening.

At this point after Paramount's announcement, I don't think anyone can logically claim that one format will win. It's just delusional to claim with any certainty that Blu-ray will still win outright with this kind of announcement, since it fundamentally changes how the market is laid out. In the long run, I still think that Blu-ray has the upper hand, but this kind of announcement can lead to other announcements (i.e., other studios going neutral, or other hardware makers supporting HD-DVD) that can cut into Blu-ray's advantages enough to ensure HD-DVD's survival.

Before Paramount's move though, I thought that Blu-ray was well on its way to claiming a decisive format win by early next year. Too many trends were working in its favor, and it would have taken something dramatic to change HD-DVD's fortunes. Consider this dramatic.

[kexodusc]

Wow, what a difference a day makes. Damn - I was hoping things were going to lean one way or another in time for Christmas...doubtful to happen now.

Oh well...Round 2 - Fight!

[Groundbeef]

Hmmm. Well thats good news for me. At least I know my 360 will be playing new movies for longer....

Still I hope this thing gets resolved soon enough.

On a side note, Wooch have you seen that all NEW 360's will be coming with the HDMI out. Not just the Elite line. Perhaps it should have been that way from the beginning, but now it appears that all players will have it on deck.

[Woochifer]

Hmmm. Well thats good news for me. At least I know my 360 will be playing new movies for longer....

Still I hope this thing gets resolved soon enough.

On a side note, Wooch have you seen that all NEW 360's will be coming with the HDMI out. Not just the Elite line. Perhaps it should have been that way from the beginning, but now it appears that all players will have it on deck.

Yup, it's a case of "about freakin' time!"

Seems that if Microsoft wants to make things more interesting, they should just integrate the HD-DVD drive into the 360 ASAP. Again, it's something they should have done a long time ago, but at this point it seems to cost them less by bribing neutral studios into dropping Blu-ray (reportedly $150 million for Paramount and Dreamworks).

[Groundbeef]

Yup, it's a case of "about freakin' time!"

Seems that if Microsoft wants to make things more interesting, they should just integrate the HD-DVD drive into the 360 ASAP. Again, it's something they should have done a long time ago, but at this point it seems to cost them less by bribing neutral studios into dropping Blu-ray (reportedly $150 million for Paramount and Dreamworks).

Although I would agree that it would prop up HD-DVD more if they were to incorporate it, it would cut into the pricing advantage that the 360 is enjoying over the PS3. And although PS3/Sony has been trying to get people to belive that every PS3 has converted every user into a major Blu-Ray buyer, its not the case. I'll look up sources, but it may be as higher than 30% dont even realize the PS3 plays movies. With MS, if a consumer is buying the HD Drive, its to PLAY MOVIES. So, MS may be able to show that X players are being sold, translating directly into movie sales.

As far as "bribery" thats a bit of a loaded term. If they are out spending Sony, then shame on Sony. Seems to me that they have been caught flat footed AGAIN, and MS has just once again pulled a bit of thunder away from Sony. This has been been SOP for the past few months as Sony has lost exclusive after exclusive in the gaming realm.

They have gotten (Sony) to comfortable and appear to be riding on the good fortunes they have had in the past. Its just not working for them now. Money talks, and BS walks as the saying goes.

[Woochifer]

Although I would agree that it would prop up HD-DVD more if they were to incorporate it, it would cut into the pricing advantage that the 360 is enjoying over the PS3. And although PS3/Sony has been trying to get people to belive that every PS3 has converted every user into a major Blu-Ray buyer, its not the case. I'll look up sources, but it may be as higher than 30% dont even realize the PS3 plays movies. With MS, if a consumer is buying the HD Drive, its to PLAY MOVIES. So, MS may be able to show that X players are being sold, translating directly into movie sales.

It would cut into the 360's price advantage only if Microsoft chooses to pass the unit cost increases along to consumers, which is why I presumed that it's cheaper to pay the studios to drop Blu-ray than to add HD-DVD support to the 360 (and also a lot cheaper than the costs that MS had to write off to fix the 360's motherboard problems).

Frankly I don't see anyone saying that "every PS3 has converted every user into a Blu-ray buyer" so I don't know where you've been reading that. But, no one looking at the market objectively denies that the PS3 has given Blu-ray a decided advantage in the installed user base.

As far as "bribery" thats a bit of a loaded term. If they are out spending Sony, then shame on Sony. Seems to me that they have been caught flat footed AGAIN, and MS has just once again pulled a bit of thunder away from Sony. This has been been SOP for the past few months as Sony has lost exclusive after exclusive in the gaming realm.

As a purely self-serving business maneuver, this was brilliant on Microsoft's part. It completely blindsided the industry, which had been anticipating Universal eventually going neutral and effectively ending this format war. With Paramount (and its distribution of Dreamworks) going HD-DVD exclusive, Microsoft has basically bought time to ramp up its HD downloading model by stifling growth in the HD optical disc market. It's great for Microsoft (and maybe Toshiba), but it benefits nobody else since HD-DVD owners were already getting releases from Paramount anyway.

Bribery is a loaded term, but I think it's appropriate in this case because HD-DVD's major studio support is now entirely paid off by outside interests. Universal has been getting paid by Toshiba, Warner has a direct financial stake as a DVD and TotalHD patent holder, and now Paramount and Dreamworks are getting upwards of $150 million from Microsoft. Unless someone has information to the contrary, I haven't read anything about Sony or any of the other Blu-ray partners doing any kind of payment or in-kind considerations in exchange for studio support.

The market structure since Warner and Paramount originally went neutral in late-2005 had been setup with Blu-ray holding most of the advantages, and the sales lead that Blu-ray built up should not have been a surprise to anyone. Up to this point, Blu-ray has been outmaneuvering HD-DVD for the past 9 months, so I don't know where you get this idea that "Sony" (Blu-ray is more than just Sony) got "caught flat footed AGAIN" (how can Blu-ray get caught flat footed "again" if they have consistently outsold, outreleased, and outpartnered HD-DVD since then?). This is really the first bit of good news for HD-DVD since that time, but no denying that it's a huge coup that could very well end any chance of Blu-ray winning the format war outright.

Now, with this change in the studio support, the HD optical disc market is dangerously close to playing out the original scenario envisioned in early-2005 with the studio support evenly split, and many analysts predicting a HD quagmire with market confusion, limited consumer uptake, and both formats eventually failing as other technologies come to market. The market still can eventually go to the dual format model that Warner envisions, but going dual format includes higher costs for hardware and discs, which again impedes adoption of HD optical discs.

[Woochifer]

Well, I suspected that some kind of "behind the scenes" goings were behind Paramount's decision, and here's the short of it ...

Microsoft paid off Paramount and Dreamworks to drop Blu-ray.

Apparently, it's "promotional" considerations and prime placement on their Xbox Live service, along with free VC-1 and HDi authoring tools. Needless to say, Microsoft's intentions all along have been to sabotage the HD optical disc market long enough for HD downloading to take off, and they've obviously now played that hand.

http://www.deadlinehollywooddaily.co...vd-format-war/

Bill Hunt of the Digital Bits is not happy about this development since it ensures that the format war will linger on. I totally agree with him that this is not good for consumers, and it looks like a cash grab by Paramount and Dreamworks Animation. I also agree that now it would not be surprising to see Microsoft also put a full court press on Warner to get them to drop Blu-ray as well, which would leave the HD optical disc market back at square one -- at an impasse and DOA, exactly how Microsoft wants it. Here are the links...

http://www.thedigitalbits.com/mytwocentsa141.html#dp
http://www.thedigitalbits.com/#mytwocents

[drseid]

Well, I suspected that some kind of "behind the scenes" goings were behind Paramount's decision, and here's the short of it ...

Microsoft paid off Paramount and Dreamworks to drop Blu-ray.

Apparently, it's "promotional" considerations and prime placement on their Xbox Live service, along with free VC-1 and HDi authoring tools. Needless to say, Microsoft's intentions all along have been to sabotage the HD optical disc market long enough for HD downloading to take off, and they've obviously now played that hand.

http://www.deadlinehollywooddaily.co...vd-format-war/

Bill Hunt of the Digital Bits is not happy about this development since it ensures that the format war will linger on. I totally agree with him that this is not good for consumers, and it looks like a cash grab by Paramount and Dreamworks Animation. I also agree that now it would not be surprising to see Microsoft also put a full court press on Warner to get them to drop Blu-ray as well, which would leave the HD optical disc market back at square one -- at an impasse and DOA, exactly how Microsoft wants it. Here are the links...

http://www.thedigitalbits.com/mytwocentsa141.html#dp
http://www.thedigitalbits.com/#mytwocents

Personally I am elated at the news.

While I am just as disatisfied as most that there is a format war in the first place, with HD DVD players coming down in price all of the time, I think this creates a very *good* market for the consumer.

This announcement is gargantuan, and changes the dynamic entirely. I will not predict an HD DVD win, but I would say this announcement actually now gives HD DVD the upper hand in "the war" with an eventual dual-format player result highly likely. I believe this due to the large price differential between the cost of the two formats' respective players, coupled with the recent seeming destruction of the lame combo HD DVD/DVD discs that put HD DVD at a price disadvantage on the software side. With these two developments in hand, HD DVD is well poised to start attracting the average joe at the store. I also believe retailers will have to start to create more shelf space for HD DVD titles and players... It is happy days in the HD DVD camp indeed!

All of the above said, I too was shocked at Paramount's decision. Apart from the already speculated financial arrangement, I too see no reason why they would do this... I guess HD DVD put up some cash, but it may have been the best investment they could have made for long-term survival.

So PixelThis... Still making predictions of HD DVD's immenent demise? :-) Like I have said previously, I believe both formats can survive long-term, and there will be no "winner" (except the consumer). It is still too early to make predictions with any real certanty.

---Dave

[pixelthis]

Personally I am elated at the news.

While I am just as disatisfied as most that there is a format war in the first place, with HD DVD players coming down in price all of the time, I think this creates a very *good* market for the consumer.

This announcement is gargantuan, and changes the dynamic entirely. I will not predict an HD DVD win, but I would say this announcement actually now gives HD DVD the upper hand in "the war" with an eventual dual-format player result highly likely. I believe this due to the large price differential between the cost of the two formats' respective players, coupled with the recent seeming destruction of the lame combo HD DVD/DVD discs that put HD DVD at a price disadvantage on the software side. With these two developments in hand, HD DVD is well poised to start attracting the average joe at the store. I also believe retailers will have to start to create more shelf space for HD DVD titles and players... It is happy days in the HD DVD camp indeed!

All of the above said, I too was shocked at Paramount's decision. Apart from the already speculated financial arrangement, I too see no reason why they would do this... I guess HD DVD put up some cash, but it may have been the best investment they could have made for long-term survival.

So PixelThis... Still making predictions of HD DVD's immenent demise? :-) Like I have said previously, I believe both formats can survive long-term, and there will be no "winner" (except the consumer). It is still too early to make predictions with any real certanty.

---Dave

Be great if they could, but I doubt it.
Let me say that when I refer to "downloading" I am primarily reffering to video on demand, or VOD, movies over the net still have a ways to go.
Whenever there is a "win" in a battle its just that, a win in a battle, not the WAR.
And blu-ray still outsells HDDVD by a wide margin, and most are still favoring blu-ray.
And if Microsoft is behind this then they are effectively punching themselves in the face,
since Blu-ray is a much better medium for computers (more storage space)
Personally I perfer Blu-ray, technically its much better, however I also favored
beta-max, but predicted its demise, it was clear early on they wouldnt beat VHS.
One really has nothing to do with the other.
But I will not support either one just yet, in the area where it counts... financially.
This is because Microsoft came out with a great HD format, I even have a few movies
on it, however it committed the cardinal sin, you didn't need a new player for it, just a
decent computer. Dedicated players would have been cheap. But nobodsy went for it because they want to sell players, and HT types want a new "toy".
So when one of these crashes and burns and dies a stinking death I will then (maybe)
jump on board and get a player, and begin the much more expensive task of upgrading my collection (the BIRDS, blues brothers, chasing amy, body heat, indiana jones collection, cinema paradiso, halloween)
Maybe by then these classics, as well as a few others will be out in that format

[L.J.]

Any chance that HD add on thing for the XBOX will get an upgrade to handle HD audio? It only has a standard digital output right?

[Groundbeef]

Any chance that HD add on thing for the XBOX will get an upgrade to handle HD audio? It only has a standard digital output right?

It does have an optical out for audio on the current system. I must confess I am not sure if that answers your question. But now that it will have an onboard HDMI, I would assume that would cover your HD audio needs.

[L.J.]

It does have an optical out for audio on the current system. I must confess I am not sure if that answers your question. But now that it will have an onboard HDMI, I would assume that would cover your HD audio needs.

Sorry I should have been more specific. I was refering to movies. Just wondering if the Xbox with the add on will be able to handle HD audio anytime soon. The HDMI out on the 360 is for gaming only right?

[musicman1999]

Terrible news for the consumer,Paramount's switch means only Warner is dual format but how long will that last.The pressure will be on them to pick a side soon.

bill

[Groundbeef]

Sorry I should have been more specific. I was refering to movies. Just wondering if the Xbox with the add on will be able to handle HD audio anytime soon. The HDMI out on the 360 is for gaming only right?

No. Like the old saying "All roads lead to Rome" So goes the 360. Everything, is done with the console. Games, movies, CD's, all of it processed by the console. Basically the HD-DVD is a slave drive that simply reads the movie. All processing is done on board the 360 unit proper. I think that half the reason its so economical, as it really is just a slave drive.

So all audio processed on the 360 be it gaming, video, or music will come out of the HDMI, Optical Out, or audio out connection.

Does that clear it up?

[L.J.]

No. Like the old saying "All roads lead to Rome" So goes the 360. Everything, is done with the console. Games, movies, CD's, all of it processed by the console. Basically the HD-DVD is a slave drive that simply reads the movie. All processing is done on board the 360 unit proper. I think that half the reason its so economical, as it really is just a slave drive.

So all audio processed on the 360 be it gaming, video, or music will come out of the HDMI, Optical Out, or audio out connection.

Does that clear it up?

OK, makes sense now.

[Mr Peabody]

I guess if Gates can't win one way, he will buy the win. Paramount was selling more Blu-ray titles than HD-DVD so I knew it must have taken some big bucks to compensate for that. I also suspected something to hit when Onkyo came out with a $899.00 HD-DVD player.

I did see that movies directed by Spielberg were exempt from the exclusive deal.

I bought my BR player and I don't regret it because it is an incredible upconverter for SD but I am a little leary of buying a bunch of movies until this is settled. This makes the war's outcome start to look more like the SACD/DVD-A scenario. I know the differences but a stalemate will definitely hender the entire HD disc format. There's already a large amount of people who think upsampled DVD is as good, I feel they are wrong, and there's the majority who really don't care about another video format.

[kexodusc]

Well I've visited a lot of forums on this issue in the last day - aside from the HD-DVD and Microsoft fan boys who are giddy like school girls (a thread unto itself), a lot of people are pretty ticked off that Microsoft decided to use its weight to influence the market. This would include the BluRay fanboys, and more importantly, the vast majority of people who are still on the fence and just want the format war to end so they can go either way.

Can't say I'm surprised - and big kudos to MS on a very smart move. Very self-serving, but smart.
The best comments I've seen have been that the only winner in all of this is going to be Microsoft, if there's a winner at all.

Unless BluRay really rallies and continues to build momentum somehow (or Sony starts buying off support too - which would be absolutely hilarious), or other BluRay studios start accepting bribes and go HD-DVD exclusive, these formats are likely headed to some sort of stalemate.

I don't think Microsoft will offer any other studio the same deal. Microsoft isn't exactly married to HD-DVD, and do not want HD-DVD to win anymore than BluRay, especially this early. Their goal, as has been mentioned, is the HD Downloading market - far more potential for profit than their stake in HD-DVD, and we can bet they'll turn on Toshiba and HD-DVD at the most opportune time.

So as a consumer, here's my options for an HD solution:
1) buy an expensive piece of hardware that has limited software support either way, (great I can watch half the movies I like with it), or

2) start looking at HD downloading options, which still offer vastly inferior quality and limited use options comapred to the disk-based formats - and for many will be more expensive because of the service charge/internet access requirements associated with it. It's not really cheaper, or higher quality. Though I am attracted to the convenience element - definitely in my future.

I'm not exactly a happy consumer in the would-be free market today. My hope is the rest of the industy sees Microsoft's move for what it is, and just rallies behind HD-DVD now. This would blindside a lot of people, but it's probably more likely than other HD-DVD supporters going neutral or BluRay exclusive.

Wonder how long companies like Apple and Dell will sit on the sidelines? I'm sure this isn't the last plot twist.

On the plus side, I can't say I'm not deriving some satisfaction in knowing Sony is sweating a bit...

[Groundbeef]

I don't think Microsoft will offer any other studio the same deal. Microsoft isn't exactly married to HD-DVD, and do not want HD-DVD to win anymore than BluRay, especially this early. Their goal, as has been mentioned, is the HD Downloading market - far more potential for profit than their stake in HD-DVD, and we can bet they'll turn on Toshiba and HD-DVD at the most opportune time. ...

I think that MS will ride HD-DVD for as long as it takes. Although 150MM is chump change for them, they still have a financial stake in the format. At this point it is more adventageous for them to stick it in Sony's eye than anything else. I don't see them "turning" on Toshiba so much as having HD downloads surpass HD-DVD in sales.

So as a consumer, here's my options for an HD solution:
1) buy an expensive piece of hardware that has limited software support either way, (great I can watch half the movies I like with it), or

2) start looking at HD downloading options, which still offer vastly inferior quality and limited use options comapred to the disk-based formats - and for many will be more expensive because of the service charge/internet access requirements associated with it. It's not really cheaper, or higher quality. Though I am attracted to the convenience element - definitely in my future....

As far as #1, machine prices are only going to go lower. By Christmas a standalone HD-DVD player will be under $200. It may not have all the bells and whistles, but it will run. Currently the 360 HD-DVD addon runs between $149-179 and includes 6 free movies. Not a bad deal.

#2. Have you really ( I mean yourself personally) d/l a HD/ or SD program? Where are you basing "vastly inferior quality" statement from? It has been my experience that the movies that I have personally rented and watched on my Plasma have been OUTSTANDING. Costs are reasonable, around $4.00 per viewing. Your internet cost is "sunk" so that really doesn't factor into the equation. If you are only having cable/DSL just to watch movies then it may be an issue, but for all intents and purposes most people have high speed because they want it. So to try and tie the cost of internet with cost of d/l would be the equivilent of saying rentals at Blockbuster are $$$ because you need to spend $10,000 or so for a car to get there.

I would urge you to find a friend who has a 360, and d/l a movie or 2. You would be amazed how fast, and good the actual product is.

On the plus side, I can't say I'm not deriving some satisfaction in knowing Sony is sweating a bit...

Me either. It's always fun watching the giants stumble. MS has its issues also, but it is nice to see them struggling(Sony). If nothing else it makes them work harder to be better.

[GMichael]

So, I'm thinking, maybe a PS3 for the living room, and an HD-DVD for the bedroom. Or, should I go with an (Xbox + add on) in the living room and a BR for the bedroom. Hmmm...
Plan A seems to cost a little less.

[Groundbeef]

So, I'm thinking, maybe a PS3 for the living room, and an HD-DVD for the bedroom. Or, should I go with an (Xbox + add on) in the living room and a BR for the bedroom. Hmmm...
Plan A seems to cost a little less.

Does it? You can get a premium 360 for $349 + $179(HD-DVD) = $528. Plus 5 free movies and the King Kong HD-DVD with the add-on player for the 360. Composite cable included for HD video. Only has 20 gig HardDrive though, thats a little sad. 360 will run with any standard IR remote or universal remote. Harmony also makes a 360 specific remote.

PS3. 60 gig, w blu-ray on sale for $499 (until the 60 gigs run out. Then price jumps to $599 for the 80 gig hard drive). You get 1 movie, and no freebies. Plus you're on the hook for HDMI cable. If not, you can use the yellow video cable they provide for free (execellent HD playback I hear). Also, you can't use an IR remote control with your PS3, so forget about your fancy universal remote. Have to be satisfied with using your controller.

Add all the extras for the PS3, and its really no bargin.

[GMichael]

Does it? You can get a premium 360 for $349 + $179(HD-DVD) = $528. Plus 5 free movies and the King Kong HD-DVD with the add-on player for the 360. Composite cable included for HD video. Only has 20 gig HardDrive though, thats a little sad. 360 will run with any standard IR remote or universal remote. Harmony also makes a 360 specific remote.

PS3. 60 gig, w blu-ray on sale for $499 (until the 60 gigs run out. Then price jumps to $599 for the 80 gig hard drive). You get 1 movie, and no freebies. Plus you're on the hook for HDMI cable. If not, you can use the yellow video cable they provide for free (execellent HD playback I hear). Also, you can't use an IR remote control with your PS3, so forget about your fancy universal remote. Have to be satisfied with using your controller.

Add all the extras for the PS3, and its really no bargin.

But an HD-DVD player cost less than a BR player. I haven't crunched the numbers yet, but my first impression was that this would make the bigger difference.

[kexodusc]

I think that MS will ride HD-DVD for as long as it takes. Although 150MM is chump change for them, they still have a financial stake in the format. At this point it is more adventageous for them to stick it in Sony's eye than anything else. I don't see them "turning" on Toshiba so much as having HD downloads surpass HD-DVD in sales.

Bottom line- if MS feels they can make more by incapacitating the HD-DVD format so that downloading is the preferred vehicle of choice for HD movies, they're gonna do that. The profitability of holding a BluRay or HD-DVD patent is insignificant compared to the service charges MS will be raking in. Of course, others will enter that industry soon enough if Microsoft strikes oil. "Turning on them" is a bit harsh of me to say, but I see their actions not as an outright endorsement of the HD-DVD movie format, but rather a tactic to make sure nobody else gets a bigger stranglehold on the HD market. Downloads surpassing HD-disc sales is definitely more desirable for Microsoft than the peanuts they'll take in from HD-DVD. The longer this stupid format war goes, the more attractive HD-DL becomes for a lot of us - I know I don't want to commit to any format that cannot deliver a significant % of the new release market.

As far as #1, machine prices are only going to go lower. By Christmas a standalone HD-DVD player will be under $200. It may not have all the bells and whistles, but it will run. Currently the 360 HD-DVD addon runs between $149-179 and includes 6 free movies. Not a bad deal.

The longer this goes, the more I'd expect BluRay to catch up in the price department. There's been little incentive for them to cut prices in the last year, so they haven't done much there really. Why would you cut prices when you're outselling your competition 2:1 or more with higher prices? That'll change now. If it doesn't BluRay will die a quick death. Though I really never thought they'd compete selling $1000 players vs $400 ones so what do I know? I suspect HD-DVD will always be a bit cheaper, but the gap will decrease.

[QUOTE]#

2. Have you really ( I mean yourself personally) d/l a HD/ or SD program? Where are you basing "vastly inferior quality" statement from?

Come on...I've DL/purchased plenty of HD and SD material from my HD provider, and have personally watched HD movies through Microsoft's service. In both HD and SD, I've found both below the quality in both sound and video of the same titles on HD-DVD or DVD, usually because of compression, or problems in the hardware that supports the network. You know as well as I do that we could poll a ton of people and get the same answer.

I would say the onus is on any provider to prove to me that their picture and audio quality matches HD-DVDs and BluRays. That said, I'm generally satisfied with what I get, only it's not permanent, and it's not quite as good as the tangible disk format. I suspect eventually bit-for-bit copies will be used and this will address the quality side, and purchase options for permanaent copies will be made available too.


.

Your internet cost is "sunk" so that really doesn't factor into the equation. If you are only having cable/DSL just to watch movies then it may be an issue, but for all intents and purposes most people have high speed because they want it. So to try and tie the cost of internet with cost of d/l would be the equivilent of saying rentals at Blockbuster are $$$ because you need to spend $10,000 or so for a car to get there.

Wrong. It absolutely factors into the equation. For me to get the level of service I need to make downloading 30-50 GB movies practical, I need to pay for better service. Eespecially when this really takes off - it is going to put a lot of strain on ISP networks. I'm sure you're well aware of all the subtle talk of "pay by the bit" billing schemes these guys want to use. It's coming - or something to that effect. Imagine a whole neighborhood streaming/dl HD movies, while their kids are downloading MP3's and streaming you tube. It's gonna get more expensive.

Also, the internet costs aren't sunk for a huge portion of the population. Don't just dismiss this. A lot of us are going to have to upgrade services big time to make HD downloading feasible. Monthly service charges will increase as a result. Per month it's not unbearable, I bet over 4-5 years that cost would rival the price of an HD-DVD player at least. To disprove this point, you would have to demonstrate that everyone would have the same demand for their hi-speed internet service whether they download movies or not, and that nobody will have to increase service as a result. I'm sorry I'm not buying that.

I would urge you to find a friend who has a 360, and d/l a movie or 2. You would be amazed how fast, and good the actual product is.

Been there done that. I was impressed - enough that I'm getting one for myself soon...real soon...Just not as impressed as that same movie on the HD-DVD drive.. Are you telling me right now it's absolutely 100% as good in both audio and video? When I saw it, the downloads were in what (I think) MS's proprietary Windows Media-HD format at 720p, and under 7 Mbps 5.1 Dolby Digital. Good, but not nearly as good as HD-DVD. The larger and better your display, the more of an issue this is. I think my TV service provider has similar specs, slightly below. I'll have to ask my brother for the exact specs. Maybe I'm off.

Me either. It's always fun watching the giants stumble. MS has its issues also, but it is nice to see them struggling(Sony). If nothing else it makes them work harder to be better.

I don't get that much satisfaction out of watching someone stumble when it means consumer demand has been bypassed and rendered irrelevant in the process. I hate the arrogance of all these big businesses dictating to us what our choices in the matter will be. It's great they benefit. Not great when/if that comes at my expense. Oh well, happens all the time - like Coke's exlusivity at McDonalds. I've got bigger things to worry about.

I complained when Sony started bribing studios a few years ago, and I'm complaining now. But this is a matter of principle and academics. I'm sure the EU and anit-MS crowd is going to come forward with the anti-trust stuff now...here we go again.

I'll say one thing for MS. They earned a bit of my respect when they extended the XBox warranty...my bro's unit was a coaster for awhile, so he bought a 2nd one. He had both receipts and they actually reimbursed his replacement purchase!

[Groundbeef]

Come on...I've DL/purchased plenty of HD and SD material from my HD provider, and have personally watched HD movies through Microsoft's service. In both HD and SD, I've found both below the quality in both sound and video of the same titles on HD-DVD or DVD, usually because of compression, or problems in the hardware that supports the network. You know as well as I do that we could poll a ton of people and get the same answer.

I would say the onus is on any provider to prove to me that their picture and audio quality matches HD-DVDs and BluRays. That said, I'm generally satisfied with what I get, only it's not permanent, and it's not quite as good as the tangible disk format. I suspect eventually bit-for-bit copies will be used and this will address the quality side, and purchase options for permanaent copies will be made available too.!

While I would agree that the quality is not that of the physical disc, your suggestion that it is 'vastly inferior' is no more accurate. For the huddled masses, the HD d/l you get from at least MS is excellent. I cannot comment on either cable providers, or sat providers because I have never rented from them. But the sound, and video is very crisp, I have never seen artifacting, or other digitial issues with my d/l.

And you know as well as I could that we could poll tons of people and find that I am right as well. I was just suggesting that 'vastly inferior' is a bit much. I don't think that any provider is suggesting that their product is equal too, or surpasses the physical product. But for the 90% that are not A/V freaks, its 'pretty damn good'.

. Wrong. It absolutely factors into the equation. For me to get the level of service I need to make downloading 30-50 GB movies practical, I need to pay for better service. Eespecially when this really takes off - it is going to put a lot of strain on ISP networks. I'm sure you're well aware of all the subtle talk of "pay by the bit" billing schemes these guys want to use. It's coming - or something to that effect. Imagine a whole neighborhood streaming/dl HD movies, while their kids are downloading MP3's and streaming you tube. It's gonna get more expensive.

Also, the internet costs aren't sunk for a huge portion of the population. Don't just dismiss this. A lot of us are going to have to upgrade services big time to make HD downloading feasible. Monthly service charges will increase as a result. Per month it's not unbearable, I bet over 4-5 years that cost would rival the price of an HD-DVD player at least. To disprove this point, you would have to demonstrate that everyone would have the same demand for their hi-speed internet service whether they download movies or not, and that nobody will have to increase service as a result. I'm sorry I'm not buying that. !

Perhaps you are right, in the future if pay per bit becomes prevelant. However, current pricing structures DO NOT support your theory. Unless you can find me that 1 person that gets Hi-Speed internet for the sole purpose of renting movies, your cost for internet is irrelevant. Because I HAVE broadband I am able to rent movies. But my broadband is not for the purpose of renting movies. No more than I bought my mini-van to rent movies at Blockbuster.

And at $30 a pop, it only takes about 1 movie purchase per month of a physical disc to match the cost of a DSL connection.

Been there done that. I was impressed - enough that I'm getting one for myself soon...real soon...Just not as impressed as that same movie on the HD-DVD drive.. Are you telling me right now it's absolutely 100% as good in both audio and video? When I saw it, the downloads were in what (I think) MS's proprietary Windows Media-HD format at 720p, and under 7 Mbps 5.1 Dolby Digital. Good, but not nearly as good as HD-DVD. The larger and better your display, the more of an issue this is. I think my TV service provider has similar specs, slightly below. I'll have to ask my brother for the exact specs. Maybe I'm off. !

No, again, I am not saying it is equal. But it is far better than 'vastly inferior' as you put it. Basically (for myself) I rent a movie from MS in HD if I am considering buying the film. As most video stores in my cental IL town don't rent HD movies, its really the only HD game in town. If I like it, I'll consider buying it. And the HD does really translate into a better picture than an SD d/l.

I use it as a supplemental to buying HD movies. As good? No, but good enough to get a feel for the movie. My display is 50" Pioneer Plasma. Viewed at about 11'.

I'll say one thing for MS. They earned a bit of my respect when they extended the XBox warranty...my bro's unit was a coaster for awhile, so he bought a 2nd one. He had both receipts and they actually reimbursed his replacement purchase!

Actually, I'm kinda wishing mine would break. Maybe I'll get one of them new HDMI ones......