Paramount and Dreamworks Go HD-DVD Exclusive

[Mr Peabody]

Isn't 300 WB? Of course, selling more titles didn't mean anything to Paramount's decision.

[Woochifer]

On one hand I appreciate Blu-ray and HD-DVD going all out and trying to win this war, but at the same time I hope that they are not relying on gimmicks to do so and that they are both working to deliver a truly superior format to the other, which if they both promise that they initially said, I think Blu-ray has the upper advantage, but are the spending their money right now doing research and development or simply trying to out market the other? One has to wonder.

I think it's almost all about marketing at this point. Any significant improvements to either format will likely create backwards compatibility issues (e.g., the eight-layer 200 GB Blu-ray disc format that TDK recently demonstrated and Toshiba's three-layer 45 GB HD-DVD disc likely won't play on existing units), and even Blu-ray's long-planned BD-Java implementation (which all Blu-ray players sold after October must include) will result in some added features not working on current players. Given that both formats use the MPEG-2, MPEG-4, and VC-1 video codecs and the same processing chips are used in players for both formats, it's no longer about R&D but more about better execution and incremental improvements. And aside from maybe making better use of Blu-ray's larger disc capacity, I don't see either format with an advantage in that regard.

Blu-ray still has the upper hand, but they are no longer positioned to deliver a knockout blow. They very well might still win the format war, but the additional time required to beat out HD-DVD might be enough to relegate both formats to niche status.

The latest shoe to drop is the Warner top exec who was in charge of the dual-format BD/HD DVD discs (I think they are calling it Total HD) just resigned. Some are now saying that this could be a signal that Warner is going to go exclusive to one format or the other... I personally have no idea if there is any validity to this, but if they *did* go exclusive, it would make sense that they would align themselves with HD DVD as they have in the past (and still favor to some extent). If this were to occur, then we really have a mess to sort out in this "war."... The soap opera continues...

And earlier, one of Universal's biggest HD-DVD proponents got forced out as well, yet Universal's still HD-DVD exclusive. Steve Nickerson of Warner was supposedly a huge HD-DVD backer, but also one of the people who spearheaded the TotalHD disc format. No telling how to read this latest move, but I would say that it potentially puts Warner closer to the HD-DVD camp, since Nickerson was pushing more for a dual format strategy.

I don't see Warner going Blu-ray exclusive unless everyone else does. They still have patents on the DVD (and by extension HD-DVD) and the TotalHD formats, so ironically they have better financial incentive than anyone to go more actively support HD-DVD. They originally planned to have TotalHD on the market by now, but pushed it back to early next year (presumably to see if HD-DVD makes it through the holiday season with some market share intact). From a purely financial point of view, Warner stands to make a lot if the other studios adopt the TotalHD hybrid format.

But, like Paramount and Dreamworks, they could also be enticed by another bribe from Microsoft, since the revenues they potentially receive from Blu-ray disc sales in the next 18 months will likely pale in comparison to what Microsoft's deep pockets can provide. Supposedly, the $150 million that Microsoft paid Paramount and Dreamworks is worth more than the sales to date from all HD optical discs combined.

Just for perspective, 300 just became the biggest selling HD disc in either format, with a combined 250,000 in sales the first week (prior to that, The Departed was the best selling HD disc, with sales of less than 150,000 units). With a wholesale unit cost of ~$20 (that's purely my own assumption), that works out to a grand total of $5 million in revenue for best selling HD disc. Until the market for HD discs grows to a serious share of the overall home video market, studios will remain easily swayed to trade the long-term need to grow the HD disc market for short-term bucks that likely outweigh the HD disc revenues in the meantime.

[PeruvianSkies]

I am beginning to get tired of the whole format debacle. For one, I am trying to wait patiently and see what develops, but it looks like both sides are just ousting one another here and there and no one is really coming forth the victor. It's really a marketing battle at this point and there seems to be little end in sight at this point. More importantly it's not really generating a whole lot of confidence either because if one format does win, than a lot of people from the losing side are going to be ticked off for supporting the loser, wasting money, etc etc. If (and I do mean a big IF) there is some sort of compromise hybrid format that emerges it will take forever for that to happen and we will go through years of waiting while upgrades take place in both hardware and software, also meaning that some people will be left in the dust with certain limitations of their current gear. Lastly, there is just too much confusion over the various sound formats and sound compatibility with HDMI and Dolby TrueHD, as well as DTS plus receivers that are supporting those as well.

It would be different if the BETTER format emerged from this and some standards were issued in terms of compatibility, but at this point it's just a slugfest between both sides in marketing terms and we have 3 groups of people. First, are the tech people who want the latest and greatest and they are adopting these formats with caution, but at least they are making the moves to help get the ball rolling. Then there are the middle ground people who are waiting for things to get ironed out. Lastly we have the people who know nothing about the formats and are unaware of the progress or the differences between these formats.

Exposure-wise both formats have made a dent in the industry and I think at this point MOST consumers are at least aware of the words Blu-ray and HD-DVD. In my experience I have heard more people using the phrase "BLU-RAY" when it comes to the HD formats, while very little say HD-DVD, although I have heard a few people say that they thought that Blu-ray WAS the official name for High Definition DVD's, essentially they meant that HD-DVD was the technical term and Blu-ray was the street name.

I am leaning more towards Blu-ray as I have said in the past....I think the name and color alone will help push this format along. More people are attracted to blue than red and the name is easier to say and identify. I know it sounds backwards, but this is marketing 101, you need a product that sells with a catchy name and solid branding. Blu-ray has that nailed down.

[pixelthis]

It is sadly all about marketing.It does not matter if a product is good or not as long as people believe that it is.Example,Monster Cable,a poor quality product that people are willing to overpay for because they believe they are good quality.

bill

I have been trying to explain the importance of marketing on this forum for awhile.
But monster, while marketed quite well, is an example of a quality product at a fair price.
You can spend thousands on your cables if you want, but the roughly one grand I spent on my ENTIRE set of monsters (maybe a little more) will always sound competitive.
When you buy monsters you get hit on both sides, one side which (mistakenly)
think that a good cable is a matter of price, and the other side, who never saw
lampcord from home depot they didn't like.
Monsters are the right guage, gold plated, easy to cut to size, and they wont break the bank.
This is a contentious issue in this hobby, but I will side with the thousands of
blind tests in which no one could tell the difference in cables.
Once you cover the basics thats it.
As for this "format war", a lot of HT fans cant see the forest for the trees,
are your memories so short?
Do you know how many record stores have shut down in the last few years?
Just five years ago CRT was still a major player, now its all but extinct,
things are moving fast.
And in a few years most will get their rentals from cable or sat, the only "buyers"
of movies will buy from whatever format wins this stupid war, and it will be a niche format
at that.
Look at the dvdaudio/sacd feud, sure most are still around but sacd has emerged
as the "leader" if you can call it that, because of its apeal to audiophiles.
Pretty much the same thing will happen in this "war"
Blu ray appeals to the quality crowd, and it will "win", if you want to call it that

[PeruvianSkies]

I have been trying to explain the importance of marketing on this forum for awhile.
But monster, while marketed quite well, is an example of a quality product at a fair price.
You can spend thousands on your cables if you want, but the roughly one grand I spent on my ENTIRE set of monsters (maybe a little more) will always sound competitive.
When you buy monsters you get hit on both sides, one side which (mistakenly)
think that a good cable is a matter of price, and the other side, who never saw
lampcord from home depot they didn't like.
Monsters are the right guage, gold plated, easy to cut to size, and they wont break the bank.
This is a contentious issue in this hobby, but I will side with the thousands of
blind tests in which no one could tell the difference in cables.
Once you cover the basics thats it.
As for this "format war", a lot of HT fans cant see the forest for the trees,
are your memories so short?
Do you know how many record stores have shut down in the last few years?
Just five years ago CRT was still a major player, now its all but extinct,
things are moving fast.
And in a few years most will get their rentals from cable or sat, the only "buyers"
of movies will buy from whatever format wins this stupid war, and it will be a niche format
at that.
Look at the dvdaudio/sacd feud, sure most are still around but sacd has emerged
as the "leader" if you can call it that, because of its apeal to audiophiles.
Pretty much the same thing will happen in this "war"
Blu ray appeals to the quality crowd, and it will "win", if you want to call it that

Ahhhh, I have missed these mindless ramblings...have you been on vacation?

[PeruvianSkies]

I
As for this "format war", a lot of HT fans cant see the forest for the trees,
are your memories so short?
:

Thanks for regurgitating a phrase that I used on YOU not too long ago...remember this...


Originally Posted by pixelthis

WRONG, but I do agree with you that audio is important, even with dialog getting the right timber in the voices really adds to the experience.
And now let me settle this with a little experiment.

Think audio is near as important as video to humans?
Well, plug up your ears and walk around the house for awhile, how does that impair you?
NOW do the same with a blindfold on, you will quickly learn what the most important sense is to the average human.
Some old farts refuse to wear their hearing aids, but they ALL wear their glasses

MY RESPONSE:
Again, you can't see the forest through the trees. We are not talking about how important hearing and seeing is when walking around our house, we are talking about it's importance when watching (and hearing) a film. Also, how this relates to us in high-end video and high-end audio terms.

You tried to say that I am comparing apples and oranges...you aren't even comparing food, you're about as far off as apples and laundry detergent.

taken from this thread: audio versus video

[pixelthis]

Thanks for regurgitating a phrase that I used on YOU not too long ago...remember this...


Originally Posted by pixelthis



MY RESPONSE:
Again, you can't see the forest through the trees. We are not talking about how important hearing and seeing is when walking around our house, we are talking about it's importance when watching (and hearing) a film. Also, how this relates to us in high-end video and high-end audio terms.

You tried to say that I am comparing apples and oranges...you aren't even comparing food, you're about as far off as apples and laundry detergent.

taken from this thread: audio versus video

You ought to have your brain taken out so you can use for a paperweight or something,
because everytime you try to use it to think you get in trouble.
Human beings are so visualy oriented hearing isnt even close, and its not a question of whats "important", you CANT HELP IT.
Might as well ask a dolphin what is more important, swimming or playing ice hocky.
Its like those old discussions about which is more important, heart or brain.
True your brain cant live without a heart, but without a brain whats the point?
You say you spent ten k on your system, well, how much of that went into video?
And of your audio gear, how much would you enjoy listening to it if it looked
like an old polish washing machine?
I give up

[pixelthis]

come to think of it, to a lot of tube fans their gear DOES look like an old Polish
washing machine

[drseid]

Blu ray appeals to the quality crowd, and it will "win", if you want to call it that

I guess it depends on what you define as "quality." Obviously we define it deferently. :-)

---Dave

[musicman1999]

I have been trying to explain the importance of marketing on this forum for awhile.
But monster, while marketed quite well, is an example of a quality product at a fair price.
You can spend thousands on your cables if you want, but the roughly one grand I spent on my ENTIRE set of monsters (maybe a little more) will always sound competitive.
When you buy monsters you get hit on both sides, one side which (mistakenly)
think that a good cable is a matter of price, and the other side, who never saw
lampcord from home depot they didn't like.
Monsters are the right guage, gold plated, easy to cut to size, and they wont break the bank.
This is a contentious issue in this hobby, but I will side with the thousands of
blind tests in which no one could tell the difference in cables.
Once you cover the basics thats it.
As for this "format war", a lot of HT fans cant see the forest for the trees,
are your memories so short?
Do you know how many record stores have shut down in the last few years?
Just five years ago CRT was still a major player, now its all but extinct,
things are moving fast.
And in a few years most will get their rentals from cable or sat, the only "buyers"
of movies will buy from whatever format wins this stupid war, and it will be a niche format
at that.
Look at the dvdaudio/sacd feud, sure most are still around but sacd has emerged
as the "leader" if you can call it that, because of its apeal to audiophiles.
Pretty much the same thing will happen in this "war"
Blu ray appeals to the quality crowd, and it will "win", if you want to call it that

My statements about Monster cable were based on my own experience with cables tried in my own system and with my own ears.I have bought no name brand cables for 1/6 the price that performed better.

bill

[Mr Peabody]

Monster is all marketing, like Bose. Is it a bad product, not necessarily but, for the same money spent you can find better. Monster is every where, not because they are good, because, of the spiffs and profitability they offer.

I get the feeling that HD-DVD is about to get aggressive going into the Christmas buying season. First the Paramount counter punch and I heard a commercial for HD-DVD on the radio. It is good that when movies are advertised on TV that they say, "available #/# on DVD and Blu-ray". This is not a time for Blu-ray to do "rope a dope", After this Paramount, and if what I heard is the beginning of a new commercial assault, Blu-ray needs to get busy as well.

[pixelthis]

I guess it depends on what you define as "quality." Obviously we define it deferently. :-)

---Dave

I guess so.
HDDVD didn't do a thing for me, looked like bad broadcast HDTV, but BLU ray had obvious improvements, not to mention a higher amount of storage space, always handy.
And when you say "quality" what first pops into mind concerning video?
Sony or TOSHIBA?
Maybe for you toshiba, but you are in the minority.
Most audiophiles and videophiles have a rather myopic view of the world.
Our little hobby rides on a sea of industrial activity.
All of our stuff put together is just a niche market in the bigger picture.
Our stuff is made from lesser gear in order to save cost.
Blu ray has a lot if advantages over HDDVD, which uses less space.
Sell a lot of blue ray lasers and the price goes down.
Players (and burners) get cheaper and computer storage gets cheaper.
Blu ray is just more advanced technilogically, and everybody that matters is behind it.
And HDDVD is in retreat, this little "exclusive" deal has more holes in it than a piece of swiss. Just another stalling action so that Toshiba will lose the minimum amount of fingers and toes.
Of course quality doesnt always decide the issue, but in this case the news for HDDVD
is very bad on most fronts.
And in the end, both will take a seat to downloading.
SACD and DVDAUDIO were the biggest marketing snafus in history, trying to appeal
to "quality" when most were downloading cheap 128kbs MP3 off the the web, and the
few "quality " buyers hypnotized by their turntables.
If these two formats dont be carefull they will wind up in the same pot.
Most discs are for rental, these will collect dust while most download off of cable, sat, and the net

[drseid]

I guess so.
HDDVD didn't do a thing for me, looked like bad broadcast HDTV, but BLU ray had obvious improvements, not to mention a higher amount of storage space, always handy.
And when you say "quality" what first pops into mind concerning video?
Sony or TOSHIBA?
Maybe for you toshiba, but you are in the minority.
Most audiophiles and videophiles have a rather myopic view of the world.
Our little hobby rides on a sea of industrial activity.
All of our stuff put together is just a niche market in the bigger picture.
Our stuff is made from lesser gear in order to save cost.
Blu ray has a lot if advantages over HDDVD, which uses less space.
Sell a lot of blue ray lasers and the price goes down.
Players (and burners) get cheaper and computer storage gets cheaper.
Blu ray is just more advanced technilogically, and everybody that matters is behind it.
And HDDVD is in retreat, this little "exclusive" deal has more holes in it than a piece of swiss. Just another stalling action so that Toshiba will lose the minimum amount of fingers and toes.
Of course quality doesnt always decide the issue, but in this case the news for HDDVD
is very bad on most fronts.
And in the end, both will take a seat to downloading.
SACD and DVDAUDIO were the biggest marketing snafus in history, trying to appeal
to "quality" when most were downloading cheap 128kbs MP3 off the the web, and the
few "quality " buyers hypnotized by their turntables.
If these two formats dont be carefull they will wind up in the same pot.
Most discs are for rental, these will collect dust while most download off of cable, sat, and the net

I don't really have a preference for one brand over the other... I actually own equipment from both. I have had much better experience with Toshiba's longevity as I have stated in the past, but I happen to like Sony's TVs from a picture quality standpoint.

As for the HD DVD vs. Blu-ray argument... we will have to agree to disagree there, as neither of us is going to convince the other to change their position.

As for downloads, they may be the wave of the future... I have no idea, but if they do end up that way it will be a sad one for me, as I find them a very poor substitute for either Blu-ray or HD DVD. Lower quality picture and sound, and a long wait to get the movie downloaded -- even with broadband in most cases (not to mention you don't have the disc to watch later). As a collector, I like things a bit more tactile, so I will probably be the last to come on board any technology such as that.

---Dave

[PeruvianSkies]

I guess it depends on what you define as "quality." Obviously we define it deferently. :-)

---Dave

Which is why you are using Tyler Acoustics and not Klipsch.

[GMichael]

Which is why you are using Tyler Acoustics and not Klipsch.

BAM..

[drseid]

Which is why you are using Tyler Acoustics and not Klipsch.

You are too bad... ;-)

---Dave

[bobsticks]

Ouch. There's some passive-aggressive ownage.

[bobsticks]

As has been mentioned the opinions held by aficionados don't mean a hill o' beans in the battle for mainstream dominance. The fact that "Blu-Ray" has already found itself into the popular vernacular as meaning Hi Definition Discs may be telling. Maybe not.

I'm pretty happy with the 360's HD-DVD add on but I'm not firmly entrenched into any camp. Whatever will prove in the long run to give me better audio and video will get the bulk of my expenditures--actually good old fashioned two channel audio sources will probably...never mind.

I'm looking forward to the release of the new generation Denon machines. Will they have the same quality of DACs and video processing? That's the 64,000 dollar question, but 2k for a machine that will devour any disc you put into it including Hi-Def and Hi-Rez is pretty compelling.

[Mr Peabody]

I doubt that anything will take the place of a disc we can hold in our hand. I know several people who are into computers and none have mentioned downloading rentals. I don't even consider PPV any comp, my cable company can't even tell me if they are in 5.1 or if any HD PPV is available. Cable is pathetic. The old walk in stores have better selection and I'm currently renting cheaper than I can get a mystery movie from the cable company.

Toshiba's DLP's have gained them some respect. If Sony don't do something about quality control they are destined to lose their rep. No matter how good a picture is, no one wants to buy a problem.

[PeruvianSkies]

As has been mentioned the opinions held by aficionados don't mean a hill o' beans in the battle for mainstream dominance. The fact that "Blu-Ray" has already found itself into the popular vernacular as meaning Hi Definition Discs may be telling. Maybe not.

I'm pretty happy with the 360's HD-DVD add on but I'm not firmly entrenched into any camp. Whatever will prove in the long run to give me better audio and video will get the bulk of my expenditures--actually good old fashioned two channel audio sources will probably...never mind.

I'm looking forward to the release of the new generation Denon machines. Will they have the same quality of DACs and video processing? That's the 64,000 dollar question, but 2k for a machine that will devour any disc you put into it including Hi-Def and Hi-Rez is pretty compelling.

Great points!! I will also be interested in what Denon comes up with and that will most likely be my next player (a Denon that does all formats) and use that for all my video needs since the Parasound unit is now my CD/SACD-only transport.

[musicman1999]

Do you use your Parasound as a player or transport?
From what i hear this Denon,if it exists,does not play dvd-a or sacd.The lack of sacd would be a downside,also the cheap machine is a transport only,not a player.

bill

[PeruvianSkies]

Do you use your Parasound as a player or transport?
From what i hear this Denon,if it exists,does not play dvd-a or sacd.The lack of sacd would be a downside,also the cheap machine is a transport only,not a player.

bill

When I bought my Parasound unit back in the Spring I really wasn't in the market for one. I stumbled across a great deal that I couldn't refuse and in my mind I knew that the player could serve both audio and video needs. It's a superb video player...I mean it really makes regular DVD's look about as good as it gets. However, with my recent migration over to having 2 systems (HT and 2-channel) I am using the Parasound unit for CD playback and also SACD. My HT setup I use for TV, movies and occasional multi-channel music, but ideally i'd like to replace my Samsung DVD player with a high-end Denon once they start doing the HD formats...that could be quite some time. I will keep my Samsung though as it is modified to play all regions and also has a really good buffer for PAL/NTSC conversion, so since half of my movies are non-US region coded...i'll need it!

[pixelthis]

Which is why you are using Tyler Acoustics and not Klipsch.

I am currently using B&w 's, about six years old but better than a pair of overpriced
(and overrated) PSB

[musicman1999]

When I bought my Parasound unit back in the Spring I really wasn't in the market for one. I stumbled across a great deal that I couldn't refuse and in my mind I knew that the player could serve both audio and video needs. It's a superb video player...I mean it really makes regular DVD's look about as good as it gets. However, with my recent migration over to having 2 systems (HT and 2-channel) I am using the Parasound unit for CD playback and also SACD. My HT setup I use for TV, movies and occasional multi-channel music, but ideally i'd like to replace my Samsung DVD player with a high-end Denon once they start doing the HD formats...that could be quite some time. I will keep my Samsung though as it is modified to play all regions and also has a really good buffer for PAL/NTSC conversion, so since half of my movies are non-US region coded...i'll need it!

Interesting,i have heard it's not a bad player.What i was getting at however is do you use digital or analog connection.

bill

[PeruvianSkies]

I am currently using B&w 's, about six years old but better than a pair of overpriced
(and overrated) PSB

If you are using B&W than change your SIGNATURE to indicate that, otherwise don't blame me for the mistake on what you are currently using.

And just to prove that you hardly know anything about what you talk about, the comment about PSB's being overpriced is just hilarious. I have never heard anyone call these speakers 'overpriced' and if anything PSB has always been known for high-end quality as budget prices. Although you wouldn't know anything about that since apparently Canadian Speaker Manufacturers are only in existence to keep up with the wood industry demands. That was a good one! Where do you come up with your crack-head ideas? Maybe crack.