Lessons From The Death of HD-DVD

[pixelthis]

That was certainly a provocative article Wooch.

But man oh man, that writer's anti-Microsoft crusade is even too much for me.

Yeah, a comet is about to smash into the Earth.
QUICK, find a way to blame Microsoft!

All from an Apple devotee no doubt.
APPLE computers make "style" statements, their stuff looks sooo cute!
But their stuff is generally considered a joke, used by some Hollywood types sure,
but its just another way for the aging hippies out there to "fight the man".

And Sir talky's tirade is so over the top, not to mention completely wrong, that it needs no answer. He pretty much discredits hisself, as usual.
The guys at TOSHIBA are big boys, mayby microsoft was a partner, but to say that
they were puppets used by gates is silly.
If Microsoft wanted to get into this they would have, and they would have probably
won.
As for "value" well, if you want a boutique computer or an ipod go to apple.
if you want a server, web brouser, operating system, codec , or pretty much anything else
go to microsoft.
One reason I think maybey talky hates micro so much is that they came out with
an elegant , inexpensive HD format , only trouble was, it played on your computer!
How do you sell players for THAT.
And that is what the talkys of the world are about, sell tech in dibs and drabs,
and make the "marks" buy a new player to keep up.
One generation of player in 1080i, the next in 1080p, the next with true HD, etc.
And he talks about Microsoft retarding progress!
If talky and his band of shysters could figure out how you'd have to buy a new player every year.
A NEW FORMAT that doesnt require an expensive new player!!!
SACRILIGE!

[Woochifer]

Yeah, a comet is about to smash into the Earth.
QUICK, find a way to blame Microsoft!

All from an Apple devotee no doubt.
APPLE computers make "style" statements, their stuff looks sooo cute!
But their stuff is generally considered a joke, used by some Hollywood types sure,
but its just another way for the aging hippies out there to "fight the man".

Check again. In the audio industry and in the video download arena that you keep touting as the wave of the future, Apple IS the man. iPod sales alone are roughly TRIPLE what the ENTIRE home audio component industry sells. And they are the number one vendor of both music and video downloads, hardly what I would call a joke.

And on their computers, who's calling their stuff a joke when pundit after pundit has begun recommending Macs in light of Microsoft's continuing disaster with Vista? I don't use a Mac because it's "cute." I use one because it does what I need a computer to do with the fewer headaches, crashes, and security issues. Try one out sometime, you might actually learn something. Then again, your posting pattern would seem to indicate otherwise!

And Sir talky's tirade is so over the top, not to mention completely wrong, that it needs no answer. He pretty much discredits hisself, as usual.
The guys at TOSHIBA are big boys, mayby microsoft was a partner, but to say that
they were puppets used by gates is silly.
If Microsoft wanted to get into this they would have, and they would have probably
won.
As for "value" well, if you want a boutique computer or an ipod go to apple.
if you want a server, web brouser, operating system, codec , or pretty much anything else
go to microsoft.

And to think I was silly enough to believe that connect-the-dots was a mere child's play game -- I guess to you, it's quite an advanced concept because you don't get it.

Microsoft is a monopolist that, for every market that they enter, tries to steer that market towards their proprietary formats and standards. In the case of HD-DVD, that would be VC-1 and HDi. To them, Blu-ray is the enemy because its underlying technology uses open standards such as MPEG-4 H.264 and Java. Toshiba was a pawn because they were on the verge of agreeing to a one-format compromise with Blu-ray similar to when Sony and Philips dropped their competing video disc format and allowed a unified DVD format to move forward back in 1995. Microsoft made it sound like they would be an involved HD-DVD partner, and use their market muscle to promote the format. But, their support only went far enough to prod Toshiba into launching HD-DVD. They wanted to muddy the market for Sony and Blu-ray, but they weren't willing to put up much of a fight once things started going south for HD-DVD.

And Microsoft's history of screwing their partners is long and well documented. Microsoft saw an opportunity to divide the market, so they quickly announced that they would support HD-DVD, which Toshiba mistakenly saw as a market opportunity for HD-DVD. But, Microsoft's support was half-a$$ed and two-faced. They never put their money where their mouth was. They could've delayed the Xbox360 launch in order to integrate the HD-DVD drive into the console design, but they didn't.

Microsoft will only go all out for their own interests, not when the initiative involves a partner. Just look at their whole PlaysForSure disaster. They got a bunch of hardware partners like Creative to sign on, and less than two years later when PlaysForSure fails to gain market traction against the iPod, Microsoft goes on their own with the Zune and screws their PlaysForSure partners. Toshiba's only the latest Microsoft partner in a long line.

[Sir Terrence the Terrible]

I cannot believe this statement from a person trying to pass themselves off as knowing everything under the sun.

mayby microsoft was a partner, but to say that
they were puppets used by gates is silly.
If Microsoft wanted to get into this they would have, and they would have probably
won.

Maybe Microsoft was a partner???? And they would have probably won??? Has this foo been on another planet? Everyone and their grandmother knew that Microsoft jumped behind HD DVD when they were rebuffed by the BDA on VC-1 and HDi. Everyone in the industry heard about Gates getting into Springers face about getting BD+ out of the spec so bluray would play in PC's with window media player. When he was rebuffed, he huffed off and jump behind Toshiba.

Well pixeless, Microsoft was a partner, and HD DVD lost. So much for you half a$$ theories. I guess we can chalk this up to another moonshine moment.

[filecat13]

I read roughlydrafted.com several times a week to get some perspective on much of the over-the-top punditry I slog through on some of the mainstream sites. Yeah, Dilger can be over focused at times, but he almost always has a more reasoned and researched approach. He even includes verifiable resources.

I get really tired of seeing a Web pundit say something is a "fact" then offer absolutely no support other than his say-so that said fact really exists. Certain Internet clowns make a living off inventing outrageous, unsupported "facts" that drive sensation-seeking readers to their sites. Compared to them, Dilger looks like a freakin' Rhodes Scholar. (Which I'm pretty sure he is not. )

Anyway, at the risk of sounding agreeable, I think history shows MS has made a lifestyle out of screwing its partners--a lesson Apple learned the hard way and almost didn't recover from. In addition to finally thwarting another MS subterfuge, the nice thing about the BluRay victory is the presence of standardized formats in both the hard media and soft media.

We'll have to see if Apple does anything with BluRay or not, but either way MPEG-4 and H.264 are now both the de jure and de facto standards going forward for both hard (disc) and soft (download) media, and that has to be a good thing.

[diggity]

there is a rumour floating around here in australia that microsoft are in the mid stages of making a blu ray game console similar to that of the ps3. if this is true it makes you wonder how much effort they were putting into hd-dvd. it has only been a week and a half since toshibas announcement and already microsoft are building a blu ray console...seems suspiciously fast to me.

seems to be the old "secret underground basement" trick to me. i can see it now, three pale skinned engineers who rarely see the light of day building this console, being secretly funded by microsoft under the codename "aurora project" then one day... voila! a fully working model accompanied by the phrase " we knew bluray would win all along"

cheers: dazza

[Woochifer]

there is a rumour floating around here in australia that microsoft are in the mid stages of making a blu ray game console similar to that of the ps3. if this is true it makes you wonder how much effort they were putting into hd-dvd. it has only been a week and a half since toshibas announcement and already microsoft are building a blu ray console...seems suspiciously fast to me.

seems to be the old "secret underground basement" trick to me. i can see it now, three pale skinned engineers who rarely see the light of day building this console, being secretly funded by microsoft under the codename "aurora project" then one day... voila! a fully working model accompanied by the phrase " we knew bluray would win all along"

cheers: dazza

Sounds like a rumor campaign to me. A similar thread was started up in the High Def Digest forum with a linked story, except that the story is more than a year old! I think a lot of rumors got started up when Gates said last year that they'd be open to making a Blu-ray add-on available if HD-DVD lost the format war. I can see an add-on getting introduced, but not an integrated drive.

It would be relative easy for MS to integrate a Blu-ray drive into the console, but such a move would make little sense for a number reasons. First, it would bump up the price on the Xbox360, thus negating the console's price advantage over the PS3. Maybe it would come with an upgraded version, but not standard issue on all versions.

Also, Xbox360 games get published on DVD media. PS3 games use Blu-ray media. If the Xbox360 suddenly began using Blu-ray discs for games, that would leave existing Xbox360 owners out in the cold -- won't happen.

In actuality, I think Microsoft was about to announce a Xbox360 with an integrated HD-DVD drive at CES (and might even have a bunch of them already sitting in a warehouse somewhere), but those plans got scrapped when Warner dropped HD-DVD.

[Sir Terrence the Terrible]

Sounds like a rumor campaign to me. A similar thread was started up in the High Def Digest forum with a linked story, except that the story is more than a year old! I think a lot of rumors got started up when Gates said last year that they'd be open to making a Blu-ray add-on available if HD-DVD lost the format war. I can see an add-on getting introduced, but not an integrated drive.

It would be relative easy for MS to integrate a Blu-ray drive into the console, but such a move would make little sense for a number reasons. First, it would bump up the price on the Xbox360, thus negating the console's price advantage over the PS3. Maybe it would come with an upgraded version, but not standard issue on all versions.

Also, Xbox360 games get published on DVD media. PS3 games use Blu-ray media. If the Xbox360 suddenly began using Blu-ray discs for games, that would leave existing Xbox360 owners out in the cold -- won't happen.

In actuality, I think Microsoft was about to announce a Xbox360 with an integrated HD-DVD drive at CES (and might even have a bunch of them already sitting in a warehouse somewhere), but those plans got scrapped when Warner dropped HD-DVD.

From what I am hearing, they are having a bit of a struggle getting XBOX360 to work with a bluray drive. It seems that as powerful as the XBOX360 is, it does not do well trying to handle PCM, DTHD and Dts MA lossless and AVC serperately, or together. Its seems that AVC at high bit rates(what you would find on a Disney bluray titles) causes the processing to overload and shut down the machine. Using PCM, or any of the advance lossless codecs cause the audio to skip and jump around. The XBOX360 was optimized for games, not high resolution video sources. Its processing was designed for games, not high resolution audio and video, so getting it to function like the PS3 is proving very difficult for the designers to accomplish. Beef knows more about its gaming prowess than I do, but on the video side of things, it was not design to do what they are asking it to do apparently.

[Sir Terrence the Terrible]

I read roughlydrafted.com several times a week to get some perspective on much of the over-the-top punditry I slog through on some of the mainstream sites. Yeah, Dilger can be over focused at times, but he almost always has a more reasoned and researched approach. He even includes verifiable resources.

I get really tired of seeing a Web pundit say something is a "fact" then offer absolutely no support other than his say-so that said fact really exists. Certain Internet clowns make a living off inventing outrageous, unsupported "facts" that drive sensation-seeking readers to their sites. Compared to them, Dilger looks like a freakin' Rhodes Scholar. (Which I'm pretty sure he is not. )

Anyway, at the risk of sounding agreeable, I think history shows MS has made a lifestyle out of screwing its partners--a lesson Apple learned the hard way and almost didn't recover from. In addition to finally thwarting another MS subterfuge, the nice thing about the BluRay victory is the presence of standardized formats in both the hard media and soft media.

We'll have to see if Apple does anything with BluRay or not, but either way MPEG-4 and H.264 are now both the de jure and de facto standards going forward for both hard (disc) and soft (download) media, and that has to be a good thing.

With the exception of a few small details, his article was spot on to my experience over the last 5-6 years of seeing this play out from a corporate perspective. It doesn't really matter that he hates Microsoft if what he writes is factual and well accounted for.

I am personally pleased that Microsoft continues to fail over and over in getting their proprietary software in set top boxes and video players. It looks like they have failed to get Windows CE into cable set top boxes, and it looks like Tivo will beat them out there. They were successful in getting it into HD DVD, but it has now failed. Now it looks like they have a new venture, trying to dominate the search engine market. I hope Google beats the crap out of them there, and Yahoo is able to successfully rebuff Microsoft takeover plans.

[pixelthis]

Check again. In the audio industry and in the video download arena that you keep touting as the wave of the future, Apple IS the man. iPod sales alone are roughly TRIPLE what the ENTIRE home audio component industry sells. And they are the number one vendor of both music and video downloads, hardly what I would call a joke.

And on their computers, who's calling their stuff a joke when pundit after pundit has begun recommending Macs in light of Microsoft's continuing disaster with Vista? I don't use a Mac because it's "cute." I use one because it does what I need a computer to do with the fewer headaches, crashes, and security issues. Try one out sometime, you might actually learn something. Then again, your posting pattern would seem to indicate otherwise!



And to think I was silly enough to believe that connect-the-dots was a mere child's play game -- I guess to you, it's quite an advanced concept because you don't get it.

Microsoft is a monopolist that, for every market that they enter, tries to steer that market towards their proprietary formats and standards. In the case of HD-DVD, that would be VC-1 and HDi. To them, Blu-ray is the enemy because its underlying technology uses open standards such as MPEG-4 H.264 and Java. Toshiba was a pawn because they were on the verge of agreeing to a one-format compromise with Blu-ray similar to when Sony and Philips dropped their competing video disc format and allowed a unified DVD format to move forward back in 1995. Microsoft made it sound like they would be an involved HD-DVD partner, and use their market muscle to promote the format. But, their support only went far enough to prod Toshiba into launching HD-DVD. They wanted to muddy the market for Sony and Blu-ray, but they weren't willing to put up much of a fight once things started going south for HD-DVD.

And Microsoft's history of screwing their partners is long and well documented. Microsoft saw an opportunity to divide the market, so they quickly announced that they would support HD-DVD, which Toshiba mistakenly saw as a market opportunity for HD-DVD. But, Microsoft's support was half-a$$ed and two-faced. They never put their money where their mouth was. They could've delayed the Xbox360 launch in order to integrate the HD-DVD drive into the console design, but they didn't.

Microsoft will only go all out for their own interests, not when the initiative involves a partner. Just look at their whole PlaysForSure disaster. They got a bunch of hardware partners like Creative to sign on, and less than two years later when PlaysForSure fails to gain market traction against the iPod, Microsoft goes on their own with the Zune and screws their PlaysForSure partners. Toshiba's only the latest Microsoft partner in a long line.

OH PLEASE!
I am not a "lover" of microsoft but the truth is we need standards in the computer world.
You take it for granted but the only reason everybody on this site can talk to each other is
protocols and standards. AND SOMEBODY NEEDS TO ENFORCE THOSE STANDARDS.
As for Apple being a joke I was reffering to their line of toy computers, most of which you can't put an extra HD or anything else in.
And true vista has had problems but thats why you dont buy an operating system until its been around for awhile.
XP has been trouble free for me, I see no reason to upgrade, and wont until the compatibility problems have been addressed.
But thse are nothing compared to APPLES SIMILAR PROBLEMS.
Artsy types like people in publishing and some media like Apple, but most in serious lines of work use PC, as do most people.
As for micro being a "monopolist" they are guilty of no more or less than other companies.
People always look out for their self inyerest.
And to blame the demise of HALF BAKED format that was doomed to failure from the start on their "half assed efforts", if they had done more would you be screaming they were "monopolistic"?
Thats what I thought.
As for trying to "steer" the industry towards a few industry codecs , whats wrong with that?
Why do we need ten different ways of doing something?
The superiority of VC-1 is well known BTW.
Microsoft saw two competing formats and went with the wrong one, simple as that.
They probably thought cost would be a factor like its been in every format war so far,
and they guessed wrong..
Look at it this way, do you really think the boys who came up with Vista ARE REALLY CAPABLE OF SUCH far reaching "conspiracies"?

People who see such conspiracies are guilty of a logical fallacy.
They see ten wrecks at an intersection and think someone must be causing those wrecks.
When its probably a poorly designed intersection.
Sure micro backed a disc format, big deal, there were two, the chances were fifty fifty they were going to back either one, they just backed the wrong one.
God help us if they HAD backed Blu Ray, all of you conspiracy wackjobs would be having a fit right about now, screaming about how micro is "taking over"!

[Sir Terrence the Terrible]

OH PLEASE!
I am not a "lover" of microsoft but the truth is we need standards in the computer world.
You take it for granted but the only reason everybody on this site can talk to each other is
protocols and standards. AND SOMEBODY NEEDS TO ENFORCE THOSE STANDARDS.
As for Apple being a joke I was reffering to their line of toy computers, most of which you can't put an extra HD or anything else in.
And true vista has had problems but thats why you dont buy an operating system until its been around for awhile.
XP has been trouble free for me, I see no reason to upgrade, and wont until the compatibility problems have been addressed.
But thse are nothing compared to APPLES SIMILAR PROBLEMS.
Artsy types like people in publishing and some media like Apple, but most in serious lines of work use PC, as do most people.
As for micro being a "monopolist" they are guilty of no more or less than other companies.
People always look out for their self inyerest.
And to blame the demise of HALF BAKED format that was doomed to failure from the start on their "half assed efforts", if they had done more would you be screaming they were "monopolistic"?
Thats what I thought.
As for trying to "steer" the industry towards a few industry codecs , whats wrong with that?
Why do we need ten different ways of doing something?
The superiority of VC-1 is well known BTW.
Microsoft saw two competing formats and went with the wrong one, simple as that.
They probably thought cost would be a factor like its been in every format war so far,
and they guessed wrong..
Look at it this way, do you really think the boys who came up with Vista ARE REALLY CAPABLE OF SUCH far reaching "conspiracies"?

People who see such conspiracies are guilty of a logical fallacy.
They see ten wrecks at an intersection and think someone must be causing those wrecks.
When its probably a poorly designed intersection.
Sure micro backed a disc format, big deal, there were two, the chances were fifty fifty they were going to back either one, they just backed the wrong one.
God help us if they HAD backed Blu Ray, all of you conspiracy wackjobs would be having a fit right about now, screaming about how micro is "taking over"!

You really are as stupid as I first believed, maybe even worse. You don't know anything and think you know everything. Pretty tragic, but self applied ignorance usually is.

[Woochifer]

OH PLEASE!
I am not a "lover" of microsoft but the truth is we need standards in the computer world.
You take it for granted but the only reason everybody on this site can talk to each other is
protocols and standards. AND SOMEBODY NEEDS TO ENFORCE THOSE STANDARDS.

Uh, the industry has already defined the standards -- MPEG-4 H.264 is an example of an open standard that was agreed upon by consensus and approved by an international standards body. Microsoft's typical tactic is to take agreed-upon industry standards and then tie a proprietary fork to their Windows monopoly in order to divide the market (e.g., proprietary non-standard website tags that only read in IE, MS' non-standard version of Java, etc.). They tried that same tactic this time around by forcing a nonstandard format down the industry's throat, and it failed. HD-DVD is just one of many channels they've tried to get VC-1 adopted, and no doubt they'll keep trying, because they make no money so long as the industry continues to go towards H.264.

As for Apple being a joke I was reffering to their line of toy computers, most of which you can't put an extra HD or anything else in.

Ever heard of external hard drives or USB devices? I guess not.

And if Apple's computers are "toys" like you say they are, then how come the fastest Vista notebook that PC World tested last year was the Apple MacBook Pro?

You want a "toy" computer, look no further than all these bargain basement PCs running "Vista Home Basic."

And true vista has had problems but thats why you dont buy an operating system until its been around for awhile.
XP has been trouble free for me, I see no reason to upgrade, and wont until the compatibility problems have been addressed.
But thse are nothing compared to APPLES SIMILAR PROBLEMS.

Really? You mean OS X has the same issues with viruses, malware, and spyware as Windows? (Since you're clearly ignorant on the subject of Macs, the answer to that is a definitive no)

Fact of the matter is that every successive version of OS X actually makes the same computer run faster. Upgrading from OS X Tiger to Leopard resulted in nearly across-the-board increases in my system's benchmark scores -- can't say that about a PC going from XP to Vista (or Windows2000 to XP for that matter), where the performance benchmarks on some measures can drop by more than half.

Like I said, try spending some time with a Mac, you might actually learn something ... that is if you're capable of that.

Artsy types like people in publishing and some media like Apple, but most in serious lines of work use PC, as do most people.

Gosh, you mean my wife's research with DNA sequencing (which is done using UNIX programs running on a Mac) isn't a "serious" line of work? Thanks for letting me know. I'll go ahead and tell her that she's not as smart as I thought she was, because only the serious work is done a Windows machine.

As for micro being a "monopolist" they are guilty of no more or less than other companies.

Uh, least time I checked MS was ruled to be monopolist by the courts on two continents and forced to operate under consent decrees, so by definition that makes them more guilty than Apple or any other company without a court ruling to that effect.

People always look out for their self inyerest.
And to blame the demise of HALF BAKED format that was doomed to failure from the start on their "half assed efforts", if they had done more would you be screaming they were "monopolistic"?

Try again. Without Microsoft's intervention, Toshiba would likely have reached a compromise with the Blu-ray camp, and this format war would have been averted. Once Blu-ray went with the open H.264 and Java formats, Microsoft wanted a format war in order to push their proprietary VC-1 and HDi formats, and HD-DVD was the vehicle by which to make that happen. But, their efforts were half-assed because HD-DVD was not their format. They'd rather dump resources into their money-losing ventures like the Xbox and Zune franchises.

As for trying to "steer" the industry towards a few industry codecs , whats wrong with that?
Why do we need ten different ways of doing something?

We don't need more formats. That's why the industry has embraced the open standard MPEG-4 AVC (H.264) media format. It's MS that tried to break this consensus by shoehorning yet another redundant format into the mix.

The superiority of VC-1 is well known BTW.

Says who? Microsoft?

VC-1 is a more highly compressed format. Might work for squeezing smaller file sizes for downloading, but not for maximizing picture quality, especially with a 50 GB disc size.

Microsoft saw two competing formats and went with the wrong one, simple as that.

Nope. They forced a format war when it appeared that the industry was about to reach a consensus that did not include their proprietary formats. Nearly all of the CE manufacturers, computer companies, and movie studios had already announced their support for Blu-ray and painted Toshiba into a corner. Microsoft only declared their HD-DVD support when virtually the entire industry had already aligned itself with Blu-ray. That does not signify MS choosing the "wrong" format, rather it demonstrates them trying to create a format war where one did not need to happen.

They probably thought cost would be a factor like its been in every format war so far,
and they guessed wrong..
Look at it this way, do you really think the boys who came up with Vista ARE REALLY CAPABLE OF SUCH far reaching "conspiracies"?

Of course they are. That's how they operate -- illegally use market power to bleed competitors, and tie the market to proprietary standards. Doesn't take a whole lot of brains to do that, just monopoly control over the market and the willingness to illegally use that market power to expand into new markets.

With the ridiculous profits from their OS and office application monopolies, MS can make all sorts of bone-headed moves and it won't impact them one bit. I mean, they've lost billions on their video gaming, online, and media device ventures. Just about any other company would have crashed and burned a long time ago with those kinds of losses

People who see such conspiracies are guilty of a logical fallacy.

And you on the other hand, are simply ignorant of how MS' role in the HD-DVD debacle is consistent with how they've operated in the past, and continue to operate. It's no conspiracy, since MS' illegal exercise of monopoly power has been documented and in the public record for the better part of two decades.

God help us if they HAD backed Blu Ray, all of you conspiracy wackjobs would be having a fit right about now, screaming about how micro is "taking over"!

Try Google searching "embrace extend extinguish" and you'll see why that would too have been cause for concern. It's suspicious anytime MS embraces an open standard, because you know that a proprietary variant is just around the corner. The difference is that the industry has wised up to these practices. The only "wackjob" would be someone who ignores MS' history.

[pixelthis]

Your paranoia borders on the clinical. Seek help.
I am a libertarian and know that a monopoly cant exist in a free market.
The reason Microsoft is on top is that people embrace their products, simple as that.
And its a toy computer that has to have a USB drive in order to expand capacity.
Thats a joke.
You talk about microsoft and their "monopoly tendecies?
Do you know why apple doesnt rule the world?
They had it you know. A computer way ahead of its time you could pack it in a case,
take it anywhere, outperformed anything on the market, this was the mid eighties.
It had a mouse and a GUI , something unheard of back then.
And Apple charged 2400 bucks for one, after inflation that is 7200 dollars!
Talk about monopoly, they wouldn't liscense it to anybody
So people gritted their teeth, learned dos, and bought one of the several PC computers available from several manufacturers.
You can buy a computer for 300 bucks these days, with amazing capabilities,
if it had been up to Apple you'd be buying one of their toy computers for 5000 bucks,
and god help you if you infringed on their "patent rights".

Don't try to preach history to one who has lived it.
Apple had the world and gave it up due to their insane greed .
And if they get a stranglehold on the download market they will do what they tried to
do to computers.
Don't like a world dominated by Microsoft?
Wait until you see one dominated by Apple

[Woochifer]

Your paranoia borders on the clinical. Seek help.

And your ignorance knows no bounds, try buying a calendar sometime or at least read up on what has happened over the last 20 years. A lot has happened since the 1980s.

I am a libertarian and know that a monopoly cant exist in a free market.

Typical fallacious circular argument, given that every market in the world operates in a regulated environment, and not in some theoretical libertarian vacuum. Even the internet itself is a government-subsidized venture originally created for military applications.

If monopolies don't exist, then why do all countries have some form of anti-trust laws on the books, and why has Microsoft been legally defined as a "monopoly" by the courts in the U.S. and the E.U.?

The reason Microsoft is on top is that people embrace their products, simple as that.

Nope, the reason is that they have a monopoly in the OS market that they have used to kill competitors in other markets.

And its a toy computer that has to have a USB drive in order to expand capacity.
Thats a joke.

The joke is your now debunked belief that Macs could not be expanded. When was the last time you actually used a Mac? I thought so.

Oh, and I guess that if Macs are toys, then all the other Vista laptop PCs that PC World tested are toys too, given that the MacBook Pro outperformed all of them while running Vista?

And by your logic, all laptops are toy computers anyway (even though they now constitute the majority of the market), given that none of them can add internal hard drive capacity either, right?

You talk about microsoft and their "monopoly tendecies?
Do you know why apple doesnt rule the world?
They had it you know. A computer way ahead of its time you could pack it in a case,
take it anywhere, outperformed anything on the market, this was the mid eighties.
It had a mouse and a GUI , something unheard of back then.
And Apple charged 2400 bucks for one, after inflation that is 7200 dollars!
Talk about monopoly, they wouldn't liscense it to anybody

This coming from someone who thinks that monopolies don't exist because we have a totally free market! Make up your mind! Do monopolies exist or don't they? Proprietary and patented technology alone do not constitute a monopoly, or is that what you are telling us does not exist?

Apple was not a monopolist because at no point did they ever have or exercise market power in the computer industry. At the time that the Mac came out, there was still plenty of competition in the PC market, and the Mac's market share actually remained lower than the arcane Apple ][.

So people gritted their teeth, learned dos, and bought one of the several PC computers available from several manufacturers.
You can buy a computer for 300 bucks these days, with amazing capabilities,
if it had been up to Apple you'd be buying one of their toy computers for 5000 bucks,
and god help you if you infringed on their "patent rights".

And guess what, the market worked exactly as it should -- Apple attained only a 10% market share, while the less expensive and less capable PCs took the rest. Apple directed the Mac towards the higher end of the market, and they still do. At no point has Apple ever tried marketing the Mac towards the cheap bottomfeeding end -- I guess that's why you're so bitter towards them, given your preference for cheapness.

Don't try to preach history to one who has lived it.

I'm not preaching to someone who has lived it, just to someone who's ignorant of it.

Apple had the world and gave it up due to their insane greed .
And if they get a stranglehold on the download market they will do what they tried to
do to computers.

So tell us what they "tried to do to computers" given that at no point did they ever attain a market position powerful enough to kill competition in the OS market?

Don't like a world dominated by Microsoft?
Wait until you see one dominated by Apple

Let's see, maybe my computer at work (which is Windows-based) will crash less often, run faster, won't force me to install crapware that I don't need (a la IE, Windows Messenger, Windows Media Player, etc.), be less susceptible to worms and other security risks, and provide the ability to seamlessly work between Linux, Windows, and OS X applications?

[Sir Terrence the Terrible]

I am getting the impression that the more we try and teach this idiot, the dummer he gets.

[pixelthis]

Woochifer]And your ignorance knows no bounds, try buying a calendar sometime or at least read up on what has happened over the last 20 years. A lot has happened since the 1980s.

yep, PC's have taken over the market, a market that Apple surrendered due to greed and marketing ignorance



Typical fallacious circular argument, given that every market in the world operates in a regulated environment, and not in some theoretical libertarian vacuum. Even the internet itself is a government-subsidized venture originally created for military applications.

but its those "regulations" that allow monopolies to exist

If monopolies don't exist, then why do all countries have some form of anti-trust laws on the books, and why has Microsoft been legally defined as a "monopoly" by the courts in the U.S. and the E.U.?

this was grandstanding. If they were a monopoly then why werent they broken up?



Nope, the reason is that they have a monopoly in the OS market that they have used to kill competitors in other markets.

they dont have a "monopoly", just dominant market share, mainly because their stuff actually has use in the free world


The joke is your now debunked belief that Macs could not be expanded. When was the last time you actually used a Mac? I thought so.
Dont have time to play with toys

Oh, and I guess that if Macs are toys, then all the other Vista laptop PCs that PC World tested are toys too, given that the MacBook Pro outperformed all of them while running Vista?
Sp vista sucks and powerbook is great because it runs it so well? Are you arguing with yourself?

And by your logic, all laptops are toy computers anyway (even though they now constitute the majority of the market), given that none of them can add internal hard drive capacity either, right?
theres plenty you can do with a laptop, but we're not talking about laptops


This coming from someone who thinks that monopolies don't exist because we have a totally free market! Make up your mind! Do monopolies exist or don't they? Proprietary and patented technology alone do not constitute a monopoly, or is that what you are telling us does not exist?

proprietary and patented tech doesnt constitute a monopoly true, and that is microsofts main advantage, thanks for proving my point, and monopolies dont exist in a free market,
every monopoly that has ever existed exists because of govt force

Apple was not a monopolist because at no point did they ever have or exercise market power in the computer industry. At the time that the Mac came out, there was still plenty of competition in the PC market, and the Mac's market share actually remained lower than the arcane Apple ][.



And guess what, the market worked exactly as it should -- Apple attained only a 10% market share, while the less expensive and less capable PCs took the rest. Apple directed the Mac towards the higher end of the market, and they still do. At no point has Apple ever tried marketing the Mac towards the cheap bottomfeeding end -- I guess that's why you're so bitter towards them, given your preference for cheapness.

In other words they lost market and became a niche product because of their greed and inept marketing, this isn't just my opinion its well known
They wouldnt liscense their product or price it competively,
and to say I am "bitter" toward a company that makes botique toys for people for whom cstyle is more important than function is hilarious. Why should I care about a doomed company run by a bunch of ignorant yuppies?


I'm not preaching to someone who has lived it, just to someone who's ignorant of it.

no, you're telling your lies and propaganda to someone who was THERE when it happened, propaganda doesnt work so well on someone who actually wittenessed
what happened.
And Apple gave up the future is what happened, and that is their loss



So tell us what they "tried to do to computers" given that at no point did they ever attain a market position powerful enough to kill competition in the OS market?
Every product they make is sealed tight and impossible to work on.
THINK that microsoft products its source code? Where can you find apples?
Oh. thats different! YEAH RIGHT


Let's see, maybe my computer at work (which is Windows-based) will crash less often, run faster, won't force me to install crapware that I don't need (a la IE, Windows Messenger, Windows Media Player, etc.), be less susceptible to worms and other security risks, and provide the ability to seamlessly work between Linux, Windows, and OS X applications? [/QUOTE]
Then just get yourself an APPLE! So why doesnt your company use Apple? Why don't they let you bring your Apple to work?
I thought so.
Apple is just as prone to security risks as windows, the only reason hackers dont bother
is that Apples are so rarely used that its not worth the trouble, and if you cant figure out how to uninstall media player and messenger then you are a blithering idiot.
BTW I have used XP for several years with no problems of any serious sort whatsoever

[Groundbeef]

. They'd rather dump resources into their money-losing ventures like the Xbox and Zune franchises.

I mean, they've lost billions on their video gaming, online, and media device ventures. Just about any other company would have crashed and burned a long time ago with those kinds of losses

I had to do a "minor" cut an paste. MS HAS turned a profit on the XBOX 360, something they never did with the original XBOX. I'm not sure about Zune, pretty sure its still losing money.

Lets not forget to lump Sony in with MS in losing money on their video gaming side of the business. The PS3 cost Sony BILLIONs in development costs, and they haven't turned a profit yet. I'm sure they will, as it appears that sales are picking up pace.

And I'm pretty sure Sony didn't do so well with the MiniDisc either.

[Sir Terrence the Terrible]

I had to do a "minor" cut an paste. MS HAS turned a profit on the XBOX 360, something they never did with the original XBOX. I'm not sure about Zune, pretty sure its still losing money.

Lets not forget to lump Sony in with MS in losing money on their video gaming side of the business. The PS3 cost Sony BILLIONs in development costs, and they haven't turned a profit yet. I'm sure they will, as it appears that sales are picking up pace.

And I'm pretty sure Sony didn't do so well with the MiniDisc either.

Actually minidisc enjoyed some success in the pro world. I used it alot to give clients a temp mix to listen to and give me comments on.

Zune is a financial diaster for Microsoft. Not the success they had hoped for.

[Woochifer]

I had to do a "minor" cut an paste. MS HAS turned a profit on the XBOX 360, something they never did with the original XBOX. I'm not sure about Zune, pretty sure its still losing money.

Only beginning late last year did MS finally turn a profit. The Xbox360 still has two years of cumulative losses in the billions to make up for before you can say that MS has actually turned a profit on the Xbox360.

Lets not forget to lump Sony in with MS in losing money on their video gaming side of the business. The PS3 cost Sony BILLIONs in development costs, and they haven't turned a profit yet. I'm sure they will, as it appears that sales are picking up pace.

Never claimed that Sony wasn't losing money on the PS3. Sony has already taken a huge hit with the PS3 and Blu-ray. They've basically bet the company's future on Blu-ray, so it remains to be seen if Blu-ray can recoup all of those losses at the back end. If Blu-ray fails, then Sony as we know it right now will probably be dramatically restructured.

My points re MS were simply that without their high margin OS and office app monopolies, there's no way would they have been able to survive so many big money-losing ventures on the consumer side like the Xbox, Zune, and MSN. And without a preexisting monopoly in place, they would not be able to shove a bloated, bug-ridden OS like Vista down everybody's throat.

If Apple had failed with the iPod or iPhone or the OS X transition, they would have taken a substantial hit financially because they don't have billions of monopoly dollars rolling in every quarter. And if the original iMac hadn't been a huge hit, Apple probably would not have survived as an independent company.