Lessons From The Death of HD-DVD

[Woochifer]

Your paranoia borders on the clinical. Seek help.

And your ignorance knows no bounds, try buying a calendar sometime or at least read up on what has happened over the last 20 years. A lot has happened since the 1980s.

I am a libertarian and know that a monopoly cant exist in a free market.

Typical fallacious circular argument, given that every market in the world operates in a regulated environment, and not in some theoretical libertarian vacuum. Even the internet itself is a government-subsidized venture originally created for military applications.

If monopolies don't exist, then why do all countries have some form of anti-trust laws on the books, and why has Microsoft been legally defined as a "monopoly" by the courts in the U.S. and the E.U.?

The reason Microsoft is on top is that people embrace their products, simple as that.

Nope, the reason is that they have a monopoly in the OS market that they have used to kill competitors in other markets.

And its a toy computer that has to have a USB drive in order to expand capacity.
Thats a joke.

The joke is your now debunked belief that Macs could not be expanded. When was the last time you actually used a Mac? I thought so.

Oh, and I guess that if Macs are toys, then all the other Vista laptop PCs that PC World tested are toys too, given that the MacBook Pro outperformed all of them while running Vista?

And by your logic, all laptops are toy computers anyway (even though they now constitute the majority of the market), given that none of them can add internal hard drive capacity either, right?

You talk about microsoft and their "monopoly tendecies?
Do you know why apple doesnt rule the world?
They had it you know. A computer way ahead of its time you could pack it in a case,
take it anywhere, outperformed anything on the market, this was the mid eighties.
It had a mouse and a GUI , something unheard of back then.
And Apple charged 2400 bucks for one, after inflation that is 7200 dollars!
Talk about monopoly, they wouldn't liscense it to anybody

This coming from someone who thinks that monopolies don't exist because we have a totally free market! Make up your mind! Do monopolies exist or don't they? Proprietary and patented technology alone do not constitute a monopoly, or is that what you are telling us does not exist?

Apple was not a monopolist because at no point did they ever have or exercise market power in the computer industry. At the time that the Mac came out, there was still plenty of competition in the PC market, and the Mac's market share actually remained lower than the arcane Apple ][.

So people gritted their teeth, learned dos, and bought one of the several PC computers available from several manufacturers.
You can buy a computer for 300 bucks these days, with amazing capabilities,
if it had been up to Apple you'd be buying one of their toy computers for 5000 bucks,
and god help you if you infringed on their "patent rights".

And guess what, the market worked exactly as it should -- Apple attained only a 10% market share, while the less expensive and less capable PCs took the rest. Apple directed the Mac towards the higher end of the market, and they still do. At no point has Apple ever tried marketing the Mac towards the cheap bottomfeeding end -- I guess that's why you're so bitter towards them, given your preference for cheapness.

Don't try to preach history to one who has lived it.

I'm not preaching to someone who has lived it, just to someone who's ignorant of it.

Apple had the world and gave it up due to their insane greed .
And if they get a stranglehold on the download market they will do what they tried to
do to computers.

So tell us what they "tried to do to computers" given that at no point did they ever attain a market position powerful enough to kill competition in the OS market?

Don't like a world dominated by Microsoft?
Wait until you see one dominated by Apple

Let's see, maybe my computer at work (which is Windows-based) will crash less often, run faster, won't force me to install crapware that I don't need (a la IE, Windows Messenger, Windows Media Player, etc.), be less susceptible to worms and other security risks, and provide the ability to seamlessly work between Linux, Windows, and OS X applications?

[Sir Terrence the Terrible]

I am getting the impression that the more we try and teach this idiot, the dummer he gets.

[GMichael]

I am getting the impression that the more we try and teach this idiot, the dummer he gets.

I resemble that!

[Sir Terrence the Terrible]

I resemble that!

LOL, thanks for the comic relief...LOL

[GMichael]

LOL, thanks for the comic relief...LOL

We all do our part. You dish out information and put people in their place. I act silly and make people laugh. It's a team thing.

[ldgibson76]

LOL, thanks for the comic relief...LOL

Hey "SirT"!

You've been summoned to "GMichael's" "What means the most in your HT system? Audio or video?" thread.
Plus there's a surprise for you.....a concession! That's right, someone admitting that you were right about something. a true digression in progress! A must-read!

[pixelthis]

Sir Terrence the Terrible]I am getting the impression that the more we try and teach this idiot, the dummer he gets.


This from a moron who can't spell "dumber"
And since I am already out of high school I doubt theres' much you can teach me, punk

[Sir Terrence the Terrible]

Sir Terrence the Terrible]I am getting the impression that the more we try and teach this idiot, the dummer he gets.


This from a moron who can't spell "dumber"
And since I am already out of high school I doubt theres' much you can teach me, punk

If you are already out of high school, and are as ignorant and stubbornly stupid as you are, that is no testament to education you got at hickville high.

The object of spelling dummer the way I did, is so you would actually understand the word. So what did you do, look up the spelling?

[ldgibson76]

If you are already out of high school, and are as ignorant and stubbornly stupid as you are, that is no testament to education you got at hickville high.

The object of spelling dummer the way I did, is so you would actually understand the word. So what did you do, look up the spelling?

Brutal!!!!

"Sir T", you're definitely back!

[pixelthis]

Woochifer]And your ignorance knows no bounds, try buying a calendar sometime or at least read up on what has happened over the last 20 years. A lot has happened since the 1980s.

yep, PC's have taken over the market, a market that Apple surrendered due to greed and marketing ignorance



Typical fallacious circular argument, given that every market in the world operates in a regulated environment, and not in some theoretical libertarian vacuum. Even the internet itself is a government-subsidized venture originally created for military applications.

but its those "regulations" that allow monopolies to exist

If monopolies don't exist, then why do all countries have some form of anti-trust laws on the books, and why has Microsoft been legally defined as a "monopoly" by the courts in the U.S. and the E.U.?

this was grandstanding. If they were a monopoly then why werent they broken up?



Nope, the reason is that they have a monopoly in the OS market that they have used to kill competitors in other markets.

they dont have a "monopoly", just dominant market share, mainly because their stuff actually has use in the free world


The joke is your now debunked belief that Macs could not be expanded. When was the last time you actually used a Mac? I thought so.
Dont have time to play with toys

Oh, and I guess that if Macs are toys, then all the other Vista laptop PCs that PC World tested are toys too, given that the MacBook Pro outperformed all of them while running Vista?
Sp vista sucks and powerbook is great because it runs it so well? Are you arguing with yourself?

And by your logic, all laptops are toy computers anyway (even though they now constitute the majority of the market), given that none of them can add internal hard drive capacity either, right?
theres plenty you can do with a laptop, but we're not talking about laptops


This coming from someone who thinks that monopolies don't exist because we have a totally free market! Make up your mind! Do monopolies exist or don't they? Proprietary and patented technology alone do not constitute a monopoly, or is that what you are telling us does not exist?

proprietary and patented tech doesnt constitute a monopoly true, and that is microsofts main advantage, thanks for proving my point, and monopolies dont exist in a free market,
every monopoly that has ever existed exists because of govt force

Apple was not a monopolist because at no point did they ever have or exercise market power in the computer industry. At the time that the Mac came out, there was still plenty of competition in the PC market, and the Mac's market share actually remained lower than the arcane Apple ][.



And guess what, the market worked exactly as it should -- Apple attained only a 10% market share, while the less expensive and less capable PCs took the rest. Apple directed the Mac towards the higher end of the market, and they still do. At no point has Apple ever tried marketing the Mac towards the cheap bottomfeeding end -- I guess that's why you're so bitter towards them, given your preference for cheapness.

In other words they lost market and became a niche product because of their greed and inept marketing, this isn't just my opinion its well known
They wouldnt liscense their product or price it competively,
and to say I am "bitter" toward a company that makes botique toys for people for whom cstyle is more important than function is hilarious. Why should I care about a doomed company run by a bunch of ignorant yuppies?


I'm not preaching to someone who has lived it, just to someone who's ignorant of it.

no, you're telling your lies and propaganda to someone who was THERE when it happened, propaganda doesnt work so well on someone who actually wittenessed
what happened.
And Apple gave up the future is what happened, and that is their loss



So tell us what they "tried to do to computers" given that at no point did they ever attain a market position powerful enough to kill competition in the OS market?
Every product they make is sealed tight and impossible to work on.
THINK that microsoft products its source code? Where can you find apples?
Oh. thats different! YEAH RIGHT


Let's see, maybe my computer at work (which is Windows-based) will crash less often, run faster, won't force me to install crapware that I don't need (a la IE, Windows Messenger, Windows Media Player, etc.), be less susceptible to worms and other security risks, and provide the ability to seamlessly work between Linux, Windows, and OS X applications? [/QUOTE]
Then just get yourself an APPLE! So why doesnt your company use Apple? Why don't they let you bring your Apple to work?
I thought so.
Apple is just as prone to security risks as windows, the only reason hackers dont bother
is that Apples are so rarely used that its not worth the trouble, and if you cant figure out how to uninstall media player and messenger then you are a blithering idiot.
BTW I have used XP for several years with no problems of any serious sort whatsoever

[Woochifer]

Woochifer]but its those "regulations" that allow monopolies to exist

BS. In the absence of those regulations, monopolies would still form, only with no legal recourse for businesses or consumers against anti-competitive behavior.

this was grandstanding. If they were a monopoly then why werent they broken up?

Because the legal remedy for monopolistic behavior is not always to break up the company. Just today, MS was levied a $1.3 billion fine by the courts in the E.U. Try reading a court decision sometime -- Microsoft IS a monopoly, despite what your so-called "free market" theorizing might say.

they dont have a "monopoly", just dominant market share, mainly because their stuff actually has use in the free world

Gosh, maybe MS should hire you as their legal counsel. I'm sure after the judges hear all of your ramblings about how monopolies don't exist, they'll just tear up all of those consent decrees and prior court decisions!

Sp vista sucks and powerbook is great because it runs it so well? Are you arguing with yourself?

Nope. Not only can that MacBook Pro run Vista faster than other PCs should you choose to install that operating system, but it can also run Mac OS X, which PC Magazine BTW just reviewed as "arguably the best consumer operating system available."

And BTW, Apple hasn't made "Powerbook" computers for years. Just yet another insight into how woefully outdated your facts are.

theres plenty you can do with a laptop, but we're not talking about laptops

You're talking about how nonexpandable computers are nothing more than toys. Simple logic would deduce that you're saying that laptops therefore are toys. Are you now saying that because "theres plenty you can do with a laptop" that laptops aren't toys? Applying logic again, wouldn't that therefore negate your argument that Macs are toys, given that there's plenty that I can do on a Mac?

Think hard, I know that logic is not one of your strongsuits, but I'm really pulling hard for you this time! You can do it! Really!

proprietary and patented tech doesnt constitute a monopoly true, and that is microsofts main advantage, thanks for proving my point, and monopolies dont exist in a free market,
every monopoly that has ever existed exists because of govt force

Again, make up your mind. Are you now saying that Microsoft IS a monopoly because it operates in a regulated environment? But, I thought that Microsoft was NOT a monopoly because it's impossible for them to exist in a free market! But, if you're now acknowledging that we're not in a free market, then that tosses all of your so-called "libertarian" arguments out the window now doesn't it?

In other words they lost market and became a niche product because of their greed and inept marketing, this isn't just my opinion its well known
They wouldnt liscense their product or price it competively,

So, how does that make Apple a monopoly, like you said they are? I thought that monopolies didn't exit, or they only existed due to govt regulation, or that MS is not a monopoly because they attained a dominant market position. Your pretzel logic is quite amusing to say the least!

Why should I care about a doomed company run by a bunch of ignorant yuppies?

Doomed company? Yuh, doomed companies should all have $18 billion cash on hand, and coming off their most profitable quarter ever. You're about 11 years late to the party with that prediction, Nostradamus.

no, you're telling your lies and propaganda to someone who was THERE when it happened, propaganda doesnt work so well on someone who actually wittenessed
what happened.

Nope, just stating a simple truth to someone who's too ignorant/myopic to acknowledge.

Every product they make is sealed tight and impossible to work on.
THINK that microsoft products its source code? Where can you find apples?

Here (Darwin kernel used in OS X)
http://www.opensource.apple.com/darwinsource/

And here (Webkit source code used for the Safari browser, Dashboard apps, and their Mail app)
http://webkit.org/

Again, don't let current facts get in the way of your outdated arguments.

Then just get yourself an APPLE!

Already got one at home

So why doesnt your company use Apple? Why don't they let you bring your Apple to work?

I can bring my Mac to work, if I choose to do so. Company has been wedded to PCs ever since I joined them. With Vista, they're now rethinking their IT systems, and now that Macs can virtualize and dual-boot using Windows, our custom apps can now run on Macs.

Apple is just as prone to security risks as windows, the only reason hackers dont bother
is that Apples are so rarely used that its not worth the trouble

Once again living in a theoretical dream world. It doesn't matter WHY Macs aren't as prone to security risks, the simple fact is that they ARE less prone to those risks. Many of MS' security risks are built into the OS defaults, for example, it took MS two service packs before the spam-magnet Messenger service was finally shut off by default.

BTW I have used XP for several years with no problems of any serious sort whatsoever[/I]

Well, I'm happy for you. That would put you in a very select group. Don't you just feel special?

[kexodusc]

Then just get yourself an APPLE! So why doesnt your company use Apple? Why don't they let you bring your Apple to work?

I work for an Investment Manager firm that manages billions in personal and institutional investor's money - we use Mac's because they are more stable than windows, prone to far less security breaches, and are capable of running programs that can integrate well into any platform - Windows, Unix/Linux or Mac. It's a lot more common than you think. Windows flaws are the reason Microsoft has failed to dominate the server market the same way it has the desktop market.

My Macbook is great (and it runs Linux very well).

For the most part the decision to buy a windows based platform has less to do with the merits of windows and more to do with the barriers to changing from Windows to something else. That is changing though, as Microsoft's hold on the OS market is declining. Good thing for consumers, bad thing for MS fanboys.

[Sir Terrence the Terrible]

I work for an Investment Manager firm that manages billions in personal and institutional investor's money - we use Mac's because they are more stable than windows, prone to far less security breaches, and are capable of running programs that can integrate well into any platform - Windows, Unix/Linux or Mac. It's a lot more common than you think. Windows flaws are the reason Microsoft has failed to dominate the server market the same way it has the desktop market.

My Macbook is great (and it runs Linux very well).

For the most part the decision to buy a windows based platform has less to do with the merits of windows and more to do with the barriers to changing from Windows to something else. That is changing though, as Microsoft's hold on the OS market is declining. Good thing for consumers, bad thing for MS fanboys.

It seems that everyone around me has already transitioned to the Mac. I have been a PC guy all of my life, and my work environment has always been Mac. I am now considering going Mac myself. It would make alot of sense for me to do so.

[ldgibson76]

Hello "Sir T"!

Forgive me if I sound a little presumptuous, but it seem like you are completely ignoring my post directed to you. What do I have to do?! Say something bad about Blu ray technology to get a response from you. I did in a previous post admit that your assertions and predictions regarding the demise of HD DVD was correct. I digress, already! You were right! You're the Man! I concede! (smile)

Regards!

[GMichael]

Hello "Sir T"!

Forgive me if I sound a little presumptuous, but it seem like you are completely ignoring my post directed to you. What do I have to do?! Say something bad about Blu ray technology to get a response from you. I did in a previous post admit that your assertions and predictions regarding the demise of HD DVD was correct. I digress, already! You were right! You're the Man! I concede! (smile)

Regards!

Would you snap a sleeping lion with a wet towel?

[ldgibson76]

Would you snap a sleeping lion with a wet towel?

As long as he's in his cage! Does he usually hold a grudge?! And let's not get it twisted, I'm not afraid of his insulting observations gripes and complaints! I do admit that he is a very knowledgeable guy and has a unique perspective on certain things. It's just at times his delivery leaves a lot to be desired. Kind of reminds me of a Morton's Steakhouse Fillet Mignon with all the trimmings being served on a trash can top! KnowwhatImean, Vern?!

[Sir Terrence the Terrible]

Hello "Sir T"!

Forgive me if I sound a little presumptuous, but it seem like you are completely ignoring my post directed to you. What do I have to do?! Say something bad about Blu ray technology to get a response from you. I did in a previous post admit that your assertions and predictions regarding the demise of HD DVD was correct. I digress, already! You were right! You're the Man! I concede! (smile)

Regards!

Hey Dave, I responded, I responded!! I gotta mix to eat ya know. You are the bomb buddy, a class act. Now do you have a band aid so I can cover the whip marks you put on me!

[Woochifer]

It seems that everyone around me has already transitioned to the Mac. I have been a PC guy all of my life, and my work environment has always been Mac. I am now considering going Mac myself. It would make alot of sense for me to do so.

Man, as a PC user in the entertainment industry, you must really feel like the odd man out!

I first learned programming on an Apple ][, and migrated straight over to a Mac in college. For work and collaborative projects, I was often forced to use PCs, and I grew proficient enough with the various versions of Windows to know how much of a kludge that OS has always been, especially now with their constant refinements and improvements to OS X.

Been around long enough to remember when PC guys would tell me that Macs were toys because they used graphical interfaces! Yet, all the while I was getting my spreadsheet and statistical work done so much faster on my Mac, because I didn't have to learn separate DOS command structures for every program that I was using.

With OS X and the Macs now using Intel processors, the Mac has become a pretty compelling option. If you still have Windows apps that you have to use, you can run Windows at close to full performance using a virtualization program such as VM Ware Fusion or Parallels, or at full performance by dual booting directly into Windows. And all the while, you can use native OS X apps for everything else.

For amateur video and audio editing, the Macs are great. For creating baby videos, I've been using Final Cut Express, which operates almost identically to the professional Final Cut Pro app (the Express version lacks certain features like the SMPTE time code, color correction tools, and support for some professional video formats -- things that an amateur like me won't need). And Garage Band (which comes with every Mac) is a fun tool for creating loops and mixing together audio tracks.

[kexodusc]

It seems that everyone around me has already transitioned to the Mac. I have been a PC guy all of my life, and my work environment has always been Mac. I am now considering going Mac myself. It would make alot of sense for me to do so.

I worked for an Apple Store in college and got my first experience that way. When XP came out, I finally broke down and bought a PC and gave up on Mac's. When I moved to Canada to my current job, the company I was with gave me a Macbook...man, did I realize how much I missed OS X after a few years of Windows.

Because of some ridiculous WGA issues, I made the transition on my PC to Linux. Once I got past the initial learning curve, it's been clear sailing. I prefer Linux to even OS X for a variety of reasons, and run it on my Macbook. Macs and Linux have more than common ancestry and tend to have a symbiotic relationship.

If you're bored with Windows or have an older machine that's slowing down, I'd recommend installing a Linux OS (it's free) on it to revitalize your computing experience. Heck, you can even put it on that PS3 of yours.

For an easy, out of the box computer purchasing experience, you still can't beat a Mac IMO, but damn, you still pay for it.

[Woochifer]

For an easy, out of the box computer purchasing experience, you still can't beat a Mac IMO, but damn, you still pay for it.

I would add though that the Mac pricing is not that high if you compare them with similarly configured PCs. Macs appear to come out at higher price points simply because Apple doesn't do a lot of bargain-priced configurations. In fact, if you compare the iMac with the new all-in-one models from Gateway and Dell, the iMac actually comes out cheaper if you configure all three models similarly.

[Sir Terrence the Terrible]

Alright Kex and Wooch, you sold me. Now Rich, I want my dang steak back, I am hungry!!!

[kexodusc]

I would add though that the Mac pricing is not that high if you compare them with similarly configured PCs. Macs appear to come out at higher price points simply because Apple doesn't do a lot of bargain-priced configurations. In fact, if you compare the iMac with the new all-in-one models from Gateway and Dell, the iMac actually comes out cheaper if you configure all three models similarly.

Fair enough, and I would also add Mac users tend to get more life out of their Macs than PC owners too, which supports the low cost-of-ownership argument.
But I can't help but think if Apple ever came out with a low-ball $300-$400 unit that they'd take the world by storm. I'm thinking of my poor mom and dad, who had to buy a new PC this winter to do the same thing they've been doing the last 10 years...surf the web, chat, and check e-mail, with the odd bit of word processing and music/DVD playback. What they ended up with wasn't a low-quality unit, just one composed of a bunch of dated components. The same configuration was probably sold for triple the price a year or two ago.
If there was a Mac in that range it would have been a no brainer. Mom and dad find my laptop far more intuitive and even "fun" than Vista which has added too much complexity and bother. I've always felt the power of a Mac was in the interface and software rather than the hardware, but maybe I'm in the minority camp on that one.

[Rich-n-Texas]

I would add though that the Mac pricing is not that high if you compare them with similarly configured PCs. Macs appear to come out at higher price points simply because Apple doesn't do a lot of bargain-priced configurations. In fact, if you compare the iMac with the new all-in-one models from Gateway and Dell, the iMac actually comes out cheaper if you configure all three models similarly.

My boss purchased a Dell recently. He was happy with it (so he said just as an attempt to prove me wrong... tell ya later), until he tried watching vidoe from his camcorder. Frame rates sucked. He's also into RC helicopter flying, and because he was spending so much money on it after constantly crashing it... ... he bought a simulator to run on the PC. Uhhhh... 9 fps. Long story short, he just purchased a "low profile" nVidia 8600 graphics card that comes from some unheard of manufacturer and distributor. I told him I'd never purchase a Dell because of all the built-in proprietarines (don't know if that's a word, but you get the gist) that forces you to upgrade with their marked up components. Every time I tell him... and this is what I was eluding to... you should've built your own, I get a dirty look and a stern "shut up".

I challenge anybody to prove to me that I can get a Mac cheaper than I can when I build my own with comparable characteristics.