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  1. #26
    Color me gone... Resident Loser's Avatar
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    I hesitate...

    ...to overburden your skills of comprehension any more than I already have, you leave me very little choice but to simplify matters...

    ...fewer words probably won't work...now we try NO words...pictographs better?

    http://www.genelec.com/pdf/QS2-way.pdf

    Quote Originally Posted by Sir Terrence the Terrible
    Your operative word is SPECIFIC, not flexibility, not adaptability. Specific denotes that the speaker only works in a predictable way when placed in ONE type of environment, not many. Its disengenious for you to try and change now what you said before. Specific is specific, flexible is flexible. You cannot turn a circle into a square no matter how hard you try.
    Me use "specific use" when talk about Triad InWall gold speakers...lookee-see old words:

    Quote Originally Posted by RL
    One point is, when you provide a link to a jpg, you really should include some of the more salient info contained in scenes' description...you provided pictures of a wall or baffle or whatever you might like to refer to it as, in support for your many contentions...HOWEVER...as a follow-up I visited the Sub South site and lo and behold, the transducers that were installed were Triad InWall Gold...in fact while they can be tilted up and down to tweek their dispersion(gee, that sounds like trial and error to me...anyone else?) they don't allow for toe-in, tis' fixed...so now repeat again with me...designed for...designed for...designed for a SPECIFIC USE...no simple JBLs or Tannoys or any-old-bookshelf-or-towers that just happened to be lying about.
    Other times used "designed for, designed for, designed for" like here:

    Quote Originally Posted by RL
    Re: the Chiu and Paz HTs: the Genelec 1032s are...(listen and repeat) designed for...designed for...designed for...Multiple placement options and environments.
    You no get it...big time, Joe...

    Quote Originally Posted by TtT
    ...Klipsch speakers were not designed to be behind a screen or soffitt, but they have been sucessfully installed in that position...
    .

    Behind screen? Has to do with what? Soffit? You hang Klipsch in soffit? Do you know what soffit is? PSBs hung in an overhang? Me no sit too close...maybe make big boom-boom on head!!! Maybe no boom-boom, just lousy image...

    Quote Originally Posted by TtT
    You said that JBL CANNOT be placed behind a screen or soffit. The link shows that it already has been done.Does all of the synthesis line have ports in the rear as you assert?
    Me say no such thing! You bad man, you very bad man...you lying sack of $h!t...me say this:

    Quote Originally Posted by RL
    Re; The Rowley's JBL synthesis lls: It is a multi-component system with the built in flexibility for placement in nearly any environment...seven-ch eq, all the bells and whistles...In fact their system controller switches driver compliment depending on the media being sourced! Of course one must also be prepared to to pay for the custom designed-mahoghany Helmholtz resonators as they might be required...
    Oh, and one thing I should have highlighted earlier:

    Quote Originally Posted by TtT
    The is no speaker on the market that makes boundary compensation circuit for BEHIND THE BAFFLE USE
    Wouldn't that be in the next room? wouldn't it be so much easier to walk through the door?

    Quote Originally Posted by TtT
    You also said you were too chicken to go after promotion for fear of being sued by minorities, and left hanging dry by the company.
    Nope, never said THAT either...you may wanna' double check your sources.

    Quote Originally Posted by TtT
    You called me a sham
    Only because you are...

    Quote Originally Posted by TtT
    I didn't call out to Eric, why are you?
    I thought maybe he'd give you another month off...and besides doing a PM is much more appropriate...

    jimHJJ(...perhaps you should change your name to Sam...)
    Hello, I'm a misanthrope...don't ask me why, just take a good look around.

    "Men would rather believe than know" -Sociobiology: The New Synthesis by Edward O. Wilson

    "The great masses of the people...will more easily fall victims to a great lie than to a small one" -Adolph Hitler

    "We are never deceived, we deceive ourselves" -Goethe

    If you repeat a lie often enough, some will believe it to be the truth...

  2. #27
    M.P.S.E /AES/SMPTE member Sir Terrence the Terrible's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Resident Loser
    ...to overburden your skills of comprehension any more than I already have, you leave me very little choice but to simplify matters...

    ...fewer words probably won't work...now we try NO words...pictographs better?

    http://www.genelec.com/pdf/QS2-way.pdf
    Hate to bust your ignorant bubble, without measuring the response of the speaker in any position, you cannot assume that these tilt responses fit. They are offering suggestions, not specifics. Nobody installs these speakers in a studio or otherwise relying on suggestions from the site, they measure the speaker in position, in the room, and the generally use 1/3 octave eq to smooth the response. You little internet education is not enough to understand the correct installation of any speaker. Notice that it did NOT mention soffit or behind the screen application, yet the speaker was used in that fashion. Adaptability, my friend. By the way, there is nothing in your little internet surfing that would tax my comprehension, its your funny way of spelling words that does.





    Me use "specific use" when talk about Triad InWall gold speakers...lookee-see old words:
    You used specific use and designed for consistantly in your post. However a speaker may be designed for X placements, and can be adapted for Y position. I have already proven that was so, you have yet to prove otherwise.



    you no get it...big time, Joe...
    Who is Joe?

    .

    Behind screen? Has to do with what? Soffit? You hang Klipsch in soffit? Do you know what soffit is? PSBs hung in an overhang? Me no sit too close...maybe make big boom-boom on head!!! Maybe no boom-boom, just lousy image...
    What language is this? Let me get my decoder ring. This is what I mean about your obvious lack of education in this area. Here is an example of a soffit mounted speaker system,'

    http://www.genelec.com/news/cherry_beach.php

    You cannot assume that you will get lousy imaging, you have to prove it. Folks that do this for a living know how to mount the speaker in a soffit and still get good imaging. Folks like yourself who have never done a single installation would probably have a little problem hanging it in a overhang LOL





    Me say no such thing! You bad man, you very bad man...you lying sack of $h!t...me say this:
    You very stupid dried up old man, forget you say this?

    IF the gear is designed for it...your "baffles" will not accomodate HAVICs PSBs...NOR the Wilson's...NOR the flagship JBL Synthesis models which have rear-firing bass ports...and to clarify again, HAVIC wants to build a wall to hang his screen BETWEEN his loudspeakers not in front of them.

    Perhaps dumb old man with all of brain and half of body in grave shouldn't talk so much if can't remember what said.






    Oh, and one thing I should have highlighted earlier:



    Wouldn't that be in the next room? wouldn't it be so much easier to walk through the door?
    Irrelevant to the topic at hand

    Nope, never said THAT either...you may wanna' double check your sources.
    Totally irrelevant to the topic






    Only because you are...
    Well then, I think you are a stupid old geezer who doesn't know his oversized prostrate from a shoe.



    I thought maybe he'd give you another month off...and besides doing a PM is much more appropriate...

    jimHJJ(...perhaps you should change your name to Sam...)
    I gave myself a month off, and enjoyed it too. Pehaps you should change your name to old stupid phart. It fits you even better than Resident idiot.

    The bottom line is this, you have failed to prove that his speakers CANNOT be used in a baffle wall. You have proved that you are dumb as heck when it comes to custom installation, the language of the trade, and adpatability of speakers to different installs. The insults, meaningless words, funny spelling, and clouding the issues proves that you are in territory that is out of your reach. I suggest you go back to knitting by day, cross dress by night, and continue to watch episodes of the Desperate housewives.
    Sir Terrence

    Titan Reference 3D 1080p projector
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    Datastat RS20I audio/video processor 12.4 audio setup
    9 Onkyo M-5099 power amp
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    9 Onkyo M-508 power amp
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    3 custom 3 way horn DSP hybrid monitors
    18 custom 3 way horn DSP hybrid surround/ceiling speakers
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    THX Style Baffle wall

  3. #28
    Color me gone... Resident Loser's Avatar
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    Lessee...

    ...if we can't just bring this full circle, and refresh a few memories in the process, shall we...

    Way back when(only post #8- but a lifetime ago it seems)I posted these words:

    Quote Originally Posted by RL
    ...Once again, you can put your enclosures or drivers in any configuration you chose, but they need to be either designed for the purpose or mechanically/electronically manipulated to compensate for their environment. At the risk of repeating myself, our poster HAS some gear and has a question...
    Now, where else shall we go in your attempted manipulation of the facts?

    Baffle wall, anyone?

    It completely eliminates an entire hemisphere of radiation AND affects the remaining 180 deg of radiation in re: to FR along with the diffraction/dispersion characteristics of the loudspeaker involved...

    Genelec 1032s?

    Completely disregarding the facts that the manufacturer characterizes their purpose as NEAR-FIELD radiators (2'4" to 6'6'" as I recall)with specific placement recommendations(@ the 60deg apex) AND nowhere endorses any baffle/soffit mounting, the examples supplied uses them in this out-of-spec/rec manner...Hmmm...curious...until, of course, one looks at either of the two .pdf downloads for the Lexicon units involved...with a myriad of fully adjustable tone/EQ/tilt/roll-off parameters available, in addition to the ajdustments available on the loudspeakers THEMSELVES the flexibility/manipulation factor seems mighty high. Pity the poor PSBs so archaic and dumb by comparison.

    Soffit or fascia?

    When does a fascia become a soffit...Well folks, in the "You can put you boots in the oven but that don't make 'em biscuits" Department, another term(like "burn-in") has been jargonized...by definition(actually many of them):

    http://www.google.com/search?hl=en&l...=define:Soffit

    Simply ask any ten people involved in contributing to society's housing needs and you will get one of those definitions...HOWEVER...'taint so in "the biz"...we have our own take on the word...it's been co-opted cuz we don't really know what to call hangin' some loudspeakers at an appropriate angle relative to the listeners heads, so we'll call it "soffit-mounting"...

    Luckily, there are a few who will still call a spade a spade...like:

    http://www.4sptech.com/timepiece_2.0_features.php

    ...who use the word soffit but put it in quotes, denoting their realization of the misuse of the word...or

    http://www.jblpro.com/pub/manuals/pssdm_2.pdf

    ...who, in the case study beginning at 7-9, use the term to denote "in ceiling" speakers...or

    http://www.asc-home-theater.com/products-soffit2.htm

    ...who market a product that fits the term...

    And in an odd confluence of "wall" or "baffle"(as some like to call 'em) and "soffit" we find this example of linguistic legerdemain:

    http://www.atc.gb.net/news/2005/dougsax.html

    ...A "soffit" that "...is not the full height of the room..."???? and tri-amped loudspeakers that "...'have been customized for our use' Sax confirms."...ohhh, lament you poor, poor PSBs...English and how she is spoke...

    Funny spelling? Or is it just dem big woids gets your skivies in a knot? Oh, oh, I get it... you mean correct spelling...yeah, it MUST seem strange to you...unaccustomed to it as you are...

    AND, if you are going to say that things are irrelevant to the topic, kindly don't bring them up in the first place!

    Geez, and you would think with fifteen years of HT experience you would be doing something other than gophering coffee and doughnuts for the Eyewitless News team...yeah, that's the ticket...I can see the business card now...Terrible Home Theatre Consultants call BR549...

    jimHJJ(...in the meanwhile, regular with a cruller, fer me...see, no clouds...)
    Last edited by Resident Loser; 10-04-2005 at 12:20 PM. Reason: spelling, what else?
    Hello, I'm a misanthrope...don't ask me why, just take a good look around.

    "Men would rather believe than know" -Sociobiology: The New Synthesis by Edward O. Wilson

    "The great masses of the people...will more easily fall victims to a great lie than to a small one" -Adolph Hitler

    "We are never deceived, we deceive ourselves" -Goethe

    If you repeat a lie often enough, some will believe it to be the truth...

  4. #29
    M.P.S.E /AES/SMPTE member Sir Terrence the Terrible's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Resident Loser
    ...if we can't just bring this full circle, and refresh a few memories in the process, shall we...

    Way back when(only post #8- but a lifetime ago it seems)I posted these words:

    Now, where else shall we go in your attempted manipulation of the facts?
    Well, this is why I am puzzled, because it appears that you are contradicting everything else you said. Especially since I followed with this comment.

    Your room is an enclosure isn't it? And doesn't it require compensation for nodes and modes? Can't you set a wide variety of speakers in your room? Is it required that speaker of a specific design go it specific kinds of rooms?

    A baffle wall design is just another room. Speakers will require compensation for baffle wall installation. It is pretty widely known that a baffle wall will elevate a speakers low end response, even the poster knew that.


    Baffle wall, anyone?
    It completely eliminates an entire hemisphere of radiation AND affects the remaining 180 deg of radiation in re: to FR along with the diffraction/dispersion characteristics of the loudspeaker involved...
    I'll tell you why eliminated the entire rear wave is actually beneficial. At very low frequencies the rear wall reflections are in phase with the front wave of the speaker because the wavelengths are very large. As you go up in frequency and the wavelengths become shorter, the rear wave becomes more and more out of phase. They become acoustical mirrors of the speaker front output but increasingly lagging in time from the speakers front output(reflections). These reflections alter the frequency response to the ears so you have peaks and valleys in the response to the ears(and measuring equipment). That is NOT a good thing. A speaker can have response variations from as little as 3db to 20db under these conditions. A baffle wall eleminates this effect completely by fully attenuating the rear output and therefore all reflections from that direction. Phase is constant, and aside from the low bass bump(which can be eleminated by using bass management and EQ) you are hearing more of the speaker, and less effects of the room on that speaker. A good thing.

    Flush mounting the loudspeaker into a wall works well by eliminating unwanted secondary sound radiation from the loudspeaker cabinet's edges and nearly idealizing the radiation space to a half space. The result is minimization of diffraction effects, improved transient response and imaging.

    Dispersion in the frontal 180 degrees(the output we are most interested in) is completely uneffected by baffle or foam baffle mounting.



    Genelec 1032s?

    Completely disregarding the facts that the manufacturer characterizes their purpose as NEAR-FIELD radiators (2'4" to 6'6'" as I recall)with specific placement recommendations(@ the 60deg apex) AND nowhere endorses any baffle/soffit mounting, the examples supplied uses them in this out-of-spec/rec manner...Hmmm...curious...until, of course, one looks at either of the two .pdf downloads for the Lexicon units involved...with a myriad of fully adjustable tone/EQ/tilt/roll-off parameters available, in addition to the ajdustments available on the loudspeakers THEMSELVES the flexibility/manipulation factor seems mighty high. Pity the poor PSBs so archaic and dumb by comparison.
    Haven't you ever heard of digital parametric or 1/3 octave graphic equalization? Last time I checked you could use it on any speaker. So the PSB's don't seem to be so dumb after all.

    While baffle mounting is not mentioned, you can see it is used for just that purpose. Its called adaptablility.

    Soffit or fascia?

    When does a fascia become a soffit...Well folks, in the "You can put you boots in the oven but that don't make 'em biscuits" Department, another term(like "burn-in") has been jargonized...by definition(actually many of them):
    http://www.google.com/search?hl=en&l...=define:Soffit
    Sorry that you don't like the way soffit is used in this instance. Since your not God himself you'll just have to live with it. It ain't changin any time soon.

    Simply ask any ten people involved in contributing to society's housing needs and you will get one of those definitions...HOWEVER...'taint so in "the biz"...we have our own take on the word...it's been co-opted cuz we don't really know what to call hangin' some loudspeakers at an appropriate angle relative to the listeners heads, so we'll call it "soffit-mounting"...
    More rantings,zzzzzzzzzz......My suggestion to you is to go to a CEDIA conference and tell them they are using the word incorrectly. I would be interested in the response you get. LOL

    Luckily, there are a few who will still call a spade a spade...like:

    http://www.4sptech.com/timepiece_2.0_features.php

    ...who use the word soffit but put it in quotes, denoting their realization of the misuse of the word...or
    Denoting the misuse of the word LOL So your reading minds again. How do you know it was put in quotes for the reason you state? You don't so we'll move on.

    [
    url]http://www.jblpro.com/pub/manuals/pssdm_2.pdf[/url]

    ...who, in the case study beginning at 7-9, use the term to denote "in ceiling" speakers...or
    Since the speakers are not mounted in the ceiling, then it wouldn't apply to this kind of installation. Do you see any speaker mounted on the ceiling in any example I gave you? I don't think so.

    http://www.asc-home-theater.com/products-soffit2.htm

    ...who market a product that fits the term...
    And in an odd confluence of "wall" or "baffle"(as some like to call 'em) and "soffit" we find this example of linguistic legerdemain:

    http://www.atc.gb.net/news/2005/dougsax.html

    ...A "soffit" that "...is not the full height of the room..."???? and tri-amped loudspeakers that "...'have been customized for our use' Sax confirms."...ohhh, lament you poor, poor PSBs...English and how she is spoke...
    I would say using EQ on the PSB's would be customizing them for a specific use. The only effect of mounting them in a baffle would be a elevated bass response. EQ can correct that easy, been there done that.




    Funny spelling? Or is it just dem big woids gets your skivies in a knot? Oh, oh, I get it... you mean correct spelling...yeah, it MUST seem strange to you...unaccustomed to it as you are...
    Not the big words that bother me, its the hick/corney way you spell the smaller words that's a problem. It is strange because I don't speak hick.

    AND, if you are going to say that things are irrelevant to the topic, kindly don't bring them up in the first place!
    Geez, and you would think with fifteen years of HT experience you would be doing something other than gophering coffee and doughnuts for the Eyewitless News team...yeah, that's the ticket...I can see the business card now...Terrible Home Theatre Consultants call BR549...
    jimHJJ(...in the meanwhile, regular with a cruller, fer me...see, no clouds...)
    The rest of this is nothing more than the ranting of a bitter old corny phart wth a oversized prostrate, who can barely piss or crap. You talk to much and don't know enough to do so. Since you already said this

    Once again, you can put your enclosures or drivers in any configuration you chose, but they need to be either designed for the purpose or mechanically/electronically manipulated to compensate for their environment. At the risk of repeating myself, our poster HAS some gear and has a question

    this whole thread is a waste of time. Digital EQ or 1/3 octave EQ can compensate for baflle mounting, and the speaker does not have to be designed specifically for this purpose. The use of bass management along with EQ makes the poster dumb speakers pretty adaptable for this particular installation. Please, go back to being the toothless old cross dresser, that is the only thing you are really good at.
    Sir Terrence

    Titan Reference 3D 1080p projector
    200" SI Black Diamond II screen
    Oppo BDP-103D
    Datastat RS20I audio/video processor 12.4 audio setup
    9 Onkyo M-5099 power amp
    9 Onkyo M-510 power amp
    9 Onkyo M-508 power amp
    6 custom CAL amps for subs
    3 custom 3 way horn DSP hybrid monitors
    18 custom 3 way horn DSP hybrid surround/ceiling speakers
    2 custom 15" sealed FFEC servo subs
    4 custom 15" H-PAS FFEC servo subs
    THX Style Baffle wall

  5. #30
    Color me gone... Resident Loser's Avatar
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    Could you possibly be any more...

    ...of a dip$h!t?

    The poster asks a question, which I'm not quite certain you completely understand even now...and you respond:

    Quote Originally Posted by TtT
    If you are speaking of a baffle wall, that will increase bass tremedously, and get rid of some modes and nodes in the room. THX actually recommends this for THX certified rooms. I would not recommend boxing the speakers, that would create resonances that are undesireable. If you build a wall with speaker cutouts for the left, center, and right speakers with acoustical foam surrounding the speakers, you will get pretty good sound.
    My question is: where are all of your suggestions of the difficulty involved...need for EQing or anything else for that matter? Yeah, yeah...cut a few holes in the wall, acoustic foam, lick o'paint...piece of cake!

    Where? NOWHERE is where...

    I respond, in part:

    Quote Originally Posted by RL
    I don't think it's...quite as simple or clear cut a some would make it seem...
    To which you get all THXy on us and go into hissy-fit heaven...

    Anyone else could say nearly anything they might please, but you get all b!tchy because I("the individual above") have the nerve to correct the all knowing and powerfull OOZE...

    And then you go on about "you don't know of any manufacturer, etc. this, that or the other thing"...like that ain't too obvious...

    Got that message/messenger bit confused, eh pal?(pal again, used in the idiomatic sense)...

    Even a semi-disinterested third party came along and asked if the poster was up to the task, cuz it probably wouldn't be easy...

    Well, so neither one of us "likes" the other...I won't be losing any sleep over it and I'm sure you won't either so...why not stick your head back up your @$$ and make yourself at home...I'm sure that smooth, pointed dome of yours will make the job easier...try a little Crisco otherwise.

    Oh, BTW...all that cross dressing cr@pola...as I recall you're the one that lives in 'Frisco...

    jimHJJ(...bum voyage...)
    Hello, I'm a misanthrope...don't ask me why, just take a good look around.

    "Men would rather believe than know" -Sociobiology: The New Synthesis by Edward O. Wilson

    "The great masses of the people...will more easily fall victims to a great lie than to a small one" -Adolph Hitler

    "We are never deceived, we deceive ourselves" -Goethe

    If you repeat a lie often enough, some will believe it to be the truth...

  6. #31
    M.P.S.E /AES/SMPTE member Sir Terrence the Terrible's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Resident Loser
    ...of a dip$h!t?

    The poster asks a question, which I'm not quite certain you completely understand even now...and you respond:
    I'm thinking about how a false wall would effect the audio sound?

    Reason I'm thinking about a false wall is with my tower speakers 20" deep and wanting a front projector, i feel that the towers will look out of place between a screen mounted on the wall.

    I think when you put a box around the speaker the bass increases. If that is true would a false wall 2-3 feet deep have the same effect. would the false wall effect anything else?


    Stupid old bigoted phart who sits his bum on his thumb, that was the question. As you can see, he didn't ask "how do I fix the bass bump? How do I mount the speakers? So while you are cussing your stupid self into a woman like tizzy(I guess that's what stupid old washed up cross dresser do) here are the facts.

    1. The poster recognized that the bass would increase, it would be logical to assume that he knew it needed to be corrected.

    2. He asked if there was any other effect. There is no other effect other than the bass boost. So if one wasn't trying to do a psychological analysis on him, and just answered the question, then my answer would have been sufficient. Your stupid a$$ read far into the question than needed.





    My question is: where are all of your suggestions of the difficulty involved...need for EQing or anything else for that matter? Yeah, yeah...cut a few holes in the wall, acoustic foam, lick o'paint...piece of cake!
    As you can see plainly in the question he didn't ask that at all. He already knew the boost existed, he wanted to know if there were any other serious audio problems. He ask "would the false wall effect anything else", that answer would be no. What he didn't ask;

    1. Does this require eq?
    2. How do I build to compensate for toe in?
    3. How thick must the wall be?
    4. How do I build the wall?

    His question was simple and easy to understand. WOULD THE FALSE WALL EFFECT ANYTHING ELSE?. The answer is no, so there was no need to go into EQ, or anything else. Your stupid old a$$ was reading way to far into the question. If he wanted additional information, he could have asked for it. All he wanted to know was " WOULD THE FALSE WALL EFFECT ANYTHING ELSE?"



    I respond, in part:

    Yes, you responded with an answer that turned out to be untrue, and not what the poster asked at all. The poster understood the one basic drawback, and just wanted to know if there were any others. He did not ask anything more than that, so there was no need to add anything more than that. He asked nothing about how it can be done, or how difficult it was, he just asked "WOULD THE FALSE WALL EFFECT ANYTHING ELSE?"



    To which you get all THXy on us and go into hissy-fit heaven.
    Don't think it quite went that way, but if it'll make your sorry butt feel better, okay. ..

    Anyone else could say nearly anything they might please, but you get all b!tchy because I("the individual above") have the nerve to correct the all knowing and powerfull OOZE...
    Unfortunately you didn't correct me, you got corrected. You said that it could not be done, I said it could, and proved it. Every issue you raised there was a clear answer. I am sorry(not) that you don't know that much about custom install, or I am sure you answer would have been quite different, and you would have found another issue to attempt to challenge me on. You are already our Resident loser, so don't be a stupid old tired loser to boot. So let's get this straight, your issue;

    Probably not a good idea IMO. First, your loudspeakers have been designed to work best within specific placement parameters as dictated by the manufacturer.

    Well I have proven that they do not have to. Any acoustic suspension, or ported speaker with the port on the front and a straight baffle will work.

    in fact while some nodes or resonances may be attenuated, other, even more obvious and troublesome in nature, may be created.

    That is a false statement that has been proven false. If you have even basic speaker/room interaction knowledge(which you do not) then you would not have even raised these points. Your ignorance amused me.

    Tweeter dispersion characteristics may be affected and your ability to "toe-in/toe-out" for the best overall soundstage may be comprimised.

    Toe in(no need for toe out whatever that is) can be designed right into the installation. Tweeter dispersion is not affected by baffle mounting. You would have known this if you actually knew more about baffle mounting speakers.

    in the final analysis, you may simply be better off with the loudspeakers positioned "proud" in respect to that of the projection screen.

    Once again your ignorance of speaker/room interaction reared its ugly old head. You are actually WORSE off mounting the speakers positioned "proud" in respect to the screen. Baffle mounting actually produces a very predictable 4-6db boost, with a falling response as the frequency rises. Overall the curve produced by baffle mounting would be smoother than if he positioned the speakers in the manner you suggest. This may be the only way you know how to position a speakers, and that is why you recommend it. Sometimes old fashion behind the time ideas are not always the best idea's. Move with the times stupid old man. Who corrected who?



    And then you go on about "you don't know of any manufacturer, etc. this, that or the other thing"...like that ain't too obvious...
    And I was right on that point also. Sore loser

    Got that message/messenger bit confused, eh pal?(pal again, used in the idiomatic sense)...
    Whatever this means, probably more of the pharty old hick talk. What do you call that dialect, Redneck?

    Even a semi-disinterested third party came along and asked if the poster was up to the task, cuz it probably wouldn't be easy...
    But what does that have to do with the question WOULD THE FALSE WALL AFFECT ANYTHING ELSE? He never said in his original question that he would build it himself, you just assumed that. And that is what you have done throughout this thread, just assume things. Assumption is the mother of stupidity, and you are quite stupid.

    Well, so neither one of us "likes" the other...I won't be losing any sleep over it and I'm sure you won't either so...why not stick your head back up your @$$ and make yourself at home...I'm sure that smooth, pointed dome of yours will make the job easier...try a little Crisco otherwise.
    This is nothing more than VERY immature stupid old man rantings. Old dude, you don't have that much longer on this earth. Before you die, try growing up a little and recognizing when you are wrong. In this case you are not just wrong, but dead wrong. So there is no need to get your little tutu in a bunch. I am sure that being a mediocre old dude has made you quite a bitter man. All is not lost though, with all the brain cells that you killed contradicting yourself and being just plain wrong, your stupid butt may not have enough memory to remember how bitter you truely are. Or how dumb you look.

    Since you have been proven wrong, I guess any response at this point would be nothing more than personal insults. Not going there anymore.

    Oh, BTW...all that cross dressing cr@pola...as I recall you're the one that lives in 'Frisco...

    jimHJJ(...bum voyage...)
    Oh, but according to HBO the Drag Queens ball is held in your backyard. I heard you won first place this year. Wasn't your name Totalia Loser, or was that Resentia Loser?
    Sir Terrence

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  7. #32
    Color me gone... Resident Loser's Avatar
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    Simple question...

    ...Oh Terrence the Titular...

    How does one accomplish this:

    Quote Originally Posted by HAVIC
    ...the towers will look out of place between a screen mounted on the wall...
    "...between a screen mounted on the wall..."I realize that this is quite taxing for you...but, how exactly does one put "speakers"(two, plural) between a screen(one, singular) which itself is to be mounted on a wall?

    Doesn't correcting this nonsensical question/statement to this scenario: a screen between two speakers, make more sense? It does to me, that's why I questioned his post.

    He doesn't appear to be contemplating putting his speakers behind the screen(He wouldn't need ANY wall in that case)...nor "insetting" them into a wall or baffle or anything else. As I see it, he just doesn't want them out in front(or proud-it's a construction term, you wouldn't understand)of his screen...what don't you get? It seems that he wants his screen to be mounted on a wall whose front surface will lie in the same plane as his speaker's front baffles. I've said this before and his response to my follow-up question to HAVIC indicates that this IS his intent.

    His interest seems to be mostly concerned with looks or presentation with an oblique, semi-familiar reference to the potential for sonic pitfalls that might ensue...

    Now, If that is not the case, you (and everyone else for that matter) have my full apology for presenting an argument based of a faulty premise, otherwise...

    Oh, yeah...BTW the word is prostate...you know that gland of yours that gets massaged when you're prostrate and takin' "deliveries" via the old Hershey Highway...

    jimHJJ(...and quite like "Niagra" it ain't a spelling error...)
    Hello, I'm a misanthrope...don't ask me why, just take a good look around.

    "Men would rather believe than know" -Sociobiology: The New Synthesis by Edward O. Wilson

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  8. #33
    M.P.S.E /AES/SMPTE member Sir Terrence the Terrible's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Resident Loser
    ...Oh Terrence the Titular...

    How does one accomplish this:



    "...between a screen mounted on the wall..."I realize that this is quite taxing for you...but, how exactly does one put "speakers"(two, plural) between a screen(one, singular) which itself is to be mounted on a wall?

    Doesn't correcting this nonsensical question/statement to this scenario: a screen between two speakers, make more sense? It does to me, that's why I questioned his post.
    You are so perfect and never make mistakes so I know that you don't understand the concept of thinking one thing, and writing something different than what you thought. Or thinking one thing, and have it come out backwards when you write it. I understood what he was asking pretty clearly, inspite of the fact that he mixed his screen and speakers around. Been there, done that.

    He doesn't appear to be contemplating putting his speakers behind the screen(He wouldn't need ANY wall in that case)...nor "insetting" them into a wall or baffle or anything else. As I see it, he just doesn't want them out in front(or proud-it's a construction term, you wouldn't understand)of his screen...what don't you get? It seems that he wants his screen to be mounted on a wall whose front surface will lie in the same plane as his speaker's front baffles. I've said this before and his response to my follow-up question to HAVIC indicates that this IS his intent.
    Well, your understanding wouldn't square with this statement;

    I think when you put a box around the speaker the bass increases.

    or this one

    However after sir terrance statements it seems like it can be done but with careful planning.

    So it would seem that was looking to flush mount his speaker in the wall. Hie did want to build a monolith wall with a space between it and the room wall, but his comments did not indicate that he wanted his speakers outside that wall.

    His interest seems to be mostly concerned with looks or presentation with an oblique, semi-familiar reference to the potential for sonic pitfalls that might ensue...
    Ummm, his comments were not oblique at all, and they didn't seem all that tenative at all. He said plainly he understood there would be a boost in the bass

    I think when you put a box around the speaker the bass increases

    Doesn't sound oblique to me, he is right.

    Now, If that is not the case, you (and everyone else for that matter) have my full apology for presenting an argument based of a faulty premise, otherwise...
    Well maybe you are not a total loser after all. How about a oblique loser

    Oh, yeah...BTW the word is prostate...you know that gland of yours that gets massaged when you're prostrate and takin' "deliveries" via the old Hershey Highway...

    jimHJJ(...and quite like "Niagra" it ain't a spelling error...)
    Well, you appear to know way more about this than I do. Personal experience perhaps?
    Sir Terrence

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  9. #34
    Color me gone... Resident Loser's Avatar
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    Let's try pictures again...

    ...he doesn't want #1-room

    Does he want #2-room with wall? This is the "box"ing he seems to be referring to...IMO...multiple corner loading...

    Does he want #3- room with monolith?

    Or something completely different?

    Based on his response to my questions(particularly HAVICs post #5), I'm guessin' #3...

    jimHJJ(...my offer of unconditional apology still stands...)
    Attached Thumbnails Attached Thumbnails False wall and audio sound-room.jpg   False wall and audio sound-room-wall.jpg   False wall and audio sound-room-monolith.jpg  
    Last edited by Resident Loser; 10-07-2005 at 10:41 AM. Reason: Clarification
    Hello, I'm a misanthrope...don't ask me why, just take a good look around.

    "Men would rather believe than know" -Sociobiology: The New Synthesis by Edward O. Wilson

    "The great masses of the people...will more easily fall victims to a great lie than to a small one" -Adolph Hitler

    "We are never deceived, we deceive ourselves" -Goethe

    If you repeat a lie often enough, some will believe it to be the truth...

  10. #35
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    Geez...

    ...after so much clatter, the silence is deafening...

    Hey HAVIC...come out, come out...wherever you are...it's safe...I think...If you're still around, can YOU take a gander at the diagrams I posted 10/07/05 and clarify matters a bit...

    Actually, opinions would be welcome from any of the members...

    jimHJJ(...thanx...)
    Hello, I'm a misanthrope...don't ask me why, just take a good look around.

    "Men would rather believe than know" -Sociobiology: The New Synthesis by Edward O. Wilson

    "The great masses of the people...will more easily fall victims to a great lie than to a small one" -Adolph Hitler

    "We are never deceived, we deceive ourselves" -Goethe

    If you repeat a lie often enough, some will believe it to be the truth...

  11. #36
    M.P.S.E /AES/SMPTE member Sir Terrence the Terrible's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Resident Loser
    ...after so much clatter, the silence is deafening...

    Hey HAVIC...come out, come out...wherever you are...it's safe...I think...If you're still around, can YOU take a gander at the diagrams I posted 10/07/05 and clarify matters a bit...

    Actually, opinions would be welcome from any of the members...

    jimHJJ(...thanx...)
    Much of the clatter was you though!

    Diagram No.1-Wouldn't solve his problem of having the speakers sticking out from the wall. I believe this is the very thing he didn't want.

    Diagram No.2-Is going to present some pretty challenging acoustical problems. First, instead of having two corners in the front of the room, you now have four. Four areas where reflections will pile up to create a resonance. You'll need four bass traps up front instead of two. You will also have more surface area to cover with acoustical foam or panels. I wouldn't recommend this setup, too many reflective surfaces close to the speaker that can create acoustical problems

    Diagram No.3-Totally not recommended. You are going to have reflections behind the screen, and off the side and rear walls to contend with. Much of these can be resolved through the use of acoustical panels but you would require alot less treatment with the speakers in wall.
    Sir Terrence

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  12. #37
    Color me gone... Resident Loser's Avatar
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    There's a very good chance...

    ...I may never again make the attempt to have a cogent conversation with you...

    Quote Originally Posted by Sir Terrence the Terrible
    Much of the clatter was you though!
    It takes two to tango...

    Quote Originally Posted by TtT
    Diagram No.1-Wouldn't solve his problem of having the speakers sticking out from the wall. I believe this is the very thing he didn't want.
    No $h!t Sherlock...what was your first clue? I addressed it in my first response/questions(post#3)...when I said, given the work involved:

    Quote Originally Posted by RL
    ...you may simply be better off with the loudspeakers positioned "proud" in respect to that of the projection screen...
    His situation was a "given" and I included it as a baseline diagram.

    Quote Originally Posted by TtT
    Diagram No.2-Is going to present some pretty challenging acoustical problems. First, instead of having two corners in the front of the room, you now have four. Four areas where reflections will pile up to create a resonance. You'll need four bass traps up front instead of two. You will also have more surface area to cover with acoustical foam or panels. I wouldn't recommend this setup, too many reflective surfaces close to the speaker that can create acoustical problems
    Does this(also from post#3) sound at all familiar?

    Quote Originally Posted by RL
    Are you considering actually changing the room's perimeter so the speakers will be "inset" into the resulting alcoves?

    Probably not a good idea IMO. First, your loudspeakers have been designed to work best within specific placement parameters as dictated by the manufacturer...this includes(but is not limited to) distance from side walls, rear walls, other large objects and even themselves. Gross deviation from these will likely provide less-than-satisfactory results...in fact while some nodes or resonances may be attenuated, other, even more obvious and troublesome in nature, may be created. Changing the room's shape or dimensions without careful attention to the final dimensions, may produce "even multiples" which can cause standing waves and other artifacts. Tweeter dispersion characteristics may be affected and your ability to "toe-in/toe-out" for the best overall soundstage may be comprimised.
    Quote Originally Posted by TtT
    Diagram No.3-Totally not recommended. You are going to have reflections behind the screen, and off the side and rear walls to contend with. Much of these can be resolved through the use of acoustical panels but you would require alot less treatment with the speakers in wall.
    BADA-BING...to what did you think I referring to when it responded(once again post #3):

    Quote Originally Posted by RL
    Are you planning simply a monolith wall which would result in an open area in the space behind it and the room's existing perimeter wall?

    Something like this can also result in less than optimum results due to the sound corridor created.
    None of these scenarios are particularly workable and the concept of putting the speakers in your "baffle wall" has it's own set of problems. As in: (a) it won't work with every speaker design, i.e. rearward firing anythings (b) many loudspeakers have placement issues as indicated by the manufacturers specific placement recs and (c) it is highly likely some sort of signal manipulation will be required to fine tune even loudspeakers that are flexible enough to be used in the manner you suggest.

    Which is why I prefaced my remarks with:

    Quote Originally Posted by RL
    I don't think it's...quite as simple or clear cut a some would make it seem...
    And closed with this caveat:

    Quote Originally Posted by RL
    ...the last thing you want to do is go through the hassles of construction in the name of aesthetics and/or room decor, only to wind up needing further room treatments such as free-standing bass traps and the like.

    Unfortunately, those issues must sometimes take a back seat when dealing with quality audio reproduction...
    Either you are simply guilty of "shooting the messenger" by taking "offense" at everything I post simply because I have posted it OR ...well, the "or" doesn't paint a pretty picture...

    jimHJJ(...so we'll just leave it at that...)
    Last edited by Resident Loser; 10-11-2005 at 12:16 PM. Reason: SP
    Hello, I'm a misanthrope...don't ask me why, just take a good look around.

    "Men would rather believe than know" -Sociobiology: The New Synthesis by Edward O. Wilson

    "The great masses of the people...will more easily fall victims to a great lie than to a small one" -Adolph Hitler

    "We are never deceived, we deceive ourselves" -Goethe

    If you repeat a lie often enough, some will believe it to be the truth...

  13. #38
    None sam9's Avatar
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    Looking at the jpegs (and ignoring the bickering), I suggest in the case of the second JPEG that you consider some sort of sound absorbtion material affixed to the screen housing and facing the speakers. If there are going to be problems from the proposed arrangement they are most likely to be reflections aff the sides ans back of the monitor. Making that area absorptive would reduce that. Conventional wisdom on accoustic treatment has the area behind and immeadiately to the sides of speakers as absorptive as possible anyway.
    http://www.drachen-audio.com

  14. #39
    M.P.S.E /AES/SMPTE member Sir Terrence the Terrible's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Resident Loser
    ...I may never again make the attempt to have a cogent [conversation with you..
    You have to know what you are talking about before you can have a cogent conversation. Since you don't, any future attempt would be impossible anyway.



    It takes two to tango..
    Sorry, don't dance with men. Especially wannabe intelligent types.



    No $h!t Sherlock...what was your first clue? I addressed it in my first response/questions(post#3)...when I said, given the work involved:
    Your response disputed my contention that the speaker could be mounted in a baffle wall. None of the diagrams you presented even had examples of the speakers in wall mounted. So what the heck are you talking about here?









    His situation was a "given" and I included it as a baseline diagram.



    Does this(also from post#3) sound at all familiar?



    BADA-BING...to what did you think I referring to when it responded(once again post #3):
    Once again, all of your examples didn't address a in wall situation, and that was what the poster was talking about. You are just putting up examples of the screen wall mounted, but the speakers remain in room, that is NOT what the poster is describing at all. IN WALL, IN WALL. Do you understand?







    None of these scenarios are particularly workable and the concept of putting the speakers in your "baffle wall" has it's own set of problems. As in: (a) it won't work with every speaker design, i.e. rearward firing anythings (b) many loudspeakers have placement issues as indicated by the manufacturers specific placement recs and (c) it is highly likely some sort of signal manipulation will be required to fine tune even loudspeakers that are flexible enough to be used in the manner you suggest.
    Let's address your issues(or really none issues).

    A) We already established that baffle mounting won't work with all speakers. But it will work with the posters, and that is the issue. Smart installers wouldn't use speakers with rear ports or drivers, the poster speakers have neither. Non issue.

    B) Placement issues are just manufacturer suggestions. And, once again, I know of no speaker manufacturer who lists how far or close the speakers should be placed in relationship to the walls, or what frequency response to expect from any placement. Most speakers are designed and tuned in a reflectionless environments, not your typical room which is full of reflections. No manufacturer has any idea how their speakers are going to perform in anyone room other than their anechoric chamber. Rear wall reflections are not beneficial to speaker performance, they take away from it. That is why most acoustical consultants recommend damping them out with acoustical panels. All a baffle wall does is eleminate them totally, which is not a bad thing.

    C) If you know anything about speaker/room intereaction you would know that ALL speakers require some sort of acoustical correction when placed in ANY room. No speaker exibits a flat response in any room(except where it was voiced) so correction, either electronic or acoustical has to be used. Baffle wall mounting requires far less equalization than sitting a speaker out in the room. When you baffle mount, the response of the speaker is far more predictable than sitting it out in the room. You have no rear reflections arriving at different times to contend with, reflections that alter the frequency response of the speaker significantly. You have no waves arriving out of phase with the front wave. Extensive testing using many different kinds of speakers yielded a worse case 6db boost from baffle mounting and that was coming from a tower speaker with a 15" woofer being used full range. The poster speakers do not have drivers any larger than 6", and has the benefit of bass management, so this issue is much more predictable in his case. With bass management employed the most boost the poster will see is probably 3-4db at 80hz, with a downward slope for about half an octave or less. Considerable better than a 3-20db swing you can get with traditional out in the room setups.





    Which is why I prefaced my remarks with:
    With your lack of knowledge and experience with baffle wall mounting of speakers, you are making it much more difficult than it really is.





    And closed with this caveat:
    Bass traps are not necessary in baffle mounting because there is no rear wave, and no corner BEHIND the speaker. Your ignorance betrays you.



    Either you are simply guilty of "shooting the messenger" by taking "offense" at everything I post simply because I have posted it OR ...well, the "or" doesn't paint a pretty picture...

    jimHJJ(...so we'll just leave it at that...)
    You came to this thread with an agenda to shoot down the practice of baffle mounting speakers, a practice that you have no experience with, or know nothing about. That is what I was shooting down, your ignorance. You as a person mean zero to me, so I wouldn't bother doing a petty thing like take offense at everything your post. You cannot shoot down what you do not know, or lack experience in as you are attempting to do. This is not about me, this is about the ability of the poster to baffle mount his speaker in a monolith wall, something that can be sucessfully done with alot less acoustical trouble than sitting the
    speakers "proud" to the screen. What the poster is attempting is something that is custom, and not traditional, so your traditional approach and reasoning doesn't apply here. Every issue you have raised doesn't really apply to baffle mounting at all.

    I really believe you can teach an old dog new tricks if they are willing to learn, and don't believe they know it all. You seem determine to remain just an old dog with old tricks.
    Sir Terrence

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  15. #40
    M.P.S.E /AES/SMPTE member Sir Terrence the Terrible's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by sam9
    Looking at the jpegs (and ignoring the bickering), I suggest in the case of the second JPEG that you consider some sort of sound absorbtion material affixed to the screen housing and facing the speakers. If there are going to be problems from the proposed arrangement they are most likely to be reflections aff the sides ans back of the monitor. Making that area absorptive would reduce that. Conventional wisdom on accoustic treatment has the area behind and immeadiately to the sides of speakers as absorptive as possible anyway.
    Sam,
    When you baffle mount the speaker, there is no need for reflection control behind the speakers. The baffle wall supresses those very effectively. If we were to use example no.2, you would need acoustical foam about 5-8" on the walls, and bass traps in all corners to supress in resonaces and reflection. With a baffle wall, you need alot less treatment, and no bass traps at all. Remember, that setup creates to corners that weren't there in the first place. Corners are high pressure modes that require very thick foam to control. No need for that with a baffle wall installation.
    Sir Terrence

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    18 custom 3 way horn DSP hybrid surround/ceiling speakers
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  16. #41
    Color me gone... Resident Loser's Avatar
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    Good Lord...

    ...I've tried everything, even reducing it to near comic-book form and you still don't get it!!!

    Quote Originally Posted by TtT
    You came to this thread with an agenda to shoot down the practice of baffle mounting speakers...
    Again, and for the umpteenth time my response was:

    Quote Originally Posted by RL
    I don't think it's...quite as simple or clear cut a some would make it seem...
    I wasn't addressing YOUR "baffle" bit, I was responding to the poster...I said nothing re: In-wall, flush mount, infinite baffle or ANY variation thereof...The poster said he wanted to build a wall...I saw NOTHING that indicated your "baffle" concept was his intent...
    I proposed two scenarios which have recently been converted to drawings as .jpegs...namely examples #2 and #3...and consequently THAT IS WHAT I ADDRESSED...has it clicked yet?

    Quote Originally Posted by TtT
    ...a practice that you have no experience with, or know nothing about. That is what I was shooting down, your ignorance.
    What exactly don't I get?...It's a friggin' variation of the older-than-dirt infinite baffle concept and practice, as I have stated all along...AGAIN, not what I saw as HAVICs question...

    Quote Originally Posted by TtT
    You as a person mean zero to me, so I wouldn't bother doing a petty thing like take offense at everything your post. You cannot shoot down what you do not know, or lack experience in as you are attempting to do. This is not about me, this is about the ability of the poster to baffle mount his speaker in a monolith wall, something that can be sucessfully done with alot less acoustical trouble than sitting the
    speakers "proud" to the screen. What the poster is attempting is something that is custom, and not traditional, so your traditional approach and reasoning doesn't apply here
    Is it a baffle or a monolith?...A monolith is a single, stand-alone entity(see .jpeg #3)...a baffle is not. A baffle creates an "artificial" perimeter and a completely distinct interior space...things can be mounted in, or flush with the surface of, your baffle...a monolith by definition simply IS what it is, like an obelisk or the big, black thing in "2001"...there is "no" interior...Do try to learn the distinction...

    Quote Originally Posted by TtT
    ...Every issue you have raised doesn't really apply to baffle mounting at all....
    Quite simply...that's pretty much due to the fact that HAVICs question, AS I READ IT and his responses to my questions(which led me to that understanding) had ab-so-lute-ly nothing to do with with any sort of baffle, THX-certified or not...

    jimHJJ(...any issues I may have had with your responses are completely superfluous to the posters inquiry...)
    Hello, I'm a misanthrope...don't ask me why, just take a good look around.

    "Men would rather believe than know" -Sociobiology: The New Synthesis by Edward O. Wilson

    "The great masses of the people...will more easily fall victims to a great lie than to a small one" -Adolph Hitler

    "We are never deceived, we deceive ourselves" -Goethe

    If you repeat a lie often enough, some will believe it to be the truth...

  17. #42
    M.P.S.E /AES/SMPTE member Sir Terrence the Terrible's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Resident Loser
    ...I've tried everything, even reducing it to near comic-book form and you still don't get it!!!
    Maybe because it was delivered in comic book form by a comic book character, that could be possible why. You read one thing, I am reading another.



    Again, and for the umpteenth time my response was:
    And for the umpteenth time I am saying your lack of experience with custom install is making you think this is harder than it is. It's been done too many times before without all of the hassle you are putting into this,.



    I wasn't addressing YOUR "baffle" bit, I was responding to the poster...I said nothing re: In-wall, flush mount, infinite baffle or ANY variation thereof...The poster said he wanted to build a wall...I saw NOTHING that indicated your "baffle" concept was his intent...
    I proposed two scenarios which have recently been converted to drawings as .jpegs...namely examples #2 and #3...and consequently THAT IS WHAT I ADDRESSED...has it clicked yet?
    The poster wanted his speakers HIDDEN not EXPOSED like you keep doing over and over again. HE DOESN'T WANT THE SPEAKERS TO BE SEEN,

    thinking about how a false wall would effect the audio sound?

    Reason I'm thinking about a false wall is with my tower speakers 20" deep and wanting a front projector, i feel that the towers will look out of place between a screen mounted on the wall.

    I think when you put a box around the speaker the bass increases. If that is true would a false wall 2-3 feet deep have the same effect. would the false wall effect anything else?


    " I feel that the towers will look out of place between a screen mounted to a wall"

    He is saying what you keep proposing would look out of place to him. He mentions putting a wall AROUND his speakers. You are attempting to change what he is proposing because I don't think you really can picture what he wants.




    What exactly don't I get?...It's a friggin' variation of the older-than-dirt infinite baffle concept and practice, as I have stated all along...AGAIN, not what I saw as HAVICs question...
    You don't seem to understand the concept of his speakers in a wall. You seem to think that speakers have to be specially built for this purpose, and most speakers can be adopted for this purpose





    Is it a baffle or a monolith?...A monolith is a single, stand-alone entity(see .jpeg #3)...a baffle is not. A baffle creates an "artificial" perimeter and a completely distinct interior space...things can be mounted in, or flush with the surface of, your baffle...a monolith by definition simply IS what it is, like an obelisk or the big, black thing in "2001"...there is "no" interior...Do try to learn the distinction...
    So you mean to tell me that no cutouts can be made to accomodate his speakers in a monolith wall? Whatever wall he wants he wants it to be 2-3ft thick which would accomodate his speakers which only have a 20" depth. HE DOESN'T WANT HIS SPEAKER SEEN!!





    Quite simply...that's pretty much due to the fact that HAVICs question, AS I READ IT and his responses to my questions(which led me to that understanding) had ab-so-lute-ly nothing to do with with any sort of baffle, THX-certified or not...
    'thinking about how a false wall would effect the audio sound?

    Reason I'm thinking about a false wall is with my tower speakers 20" deep and wanting a front projector, i feel that the towers will look out of place between a screen mounted on the wall.

    I think when you put a box around the speaker the bass increases. If that is true would a false wall 2-3 feet deep have the same effect. would the false wall effect anything else"


    There is nothing in this question that states that he wants his speakers in the room. Why would he ask about putting a box around a speaker if that was not his intention? HE WANTS HIS SPEAKERS HIDDEN NOT EXPOSED!!



    jimHJJ(...any issues I may have had with your responses are completely superfluous to the posters inquiry...)
    You really haven't addressed the poster inquiry at all. You are too busy superimposing your views over what he is asking.
    Last edited by Sir Terrence the Terrible; 10-14-2005 at 05:44 AM.
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  18. #43
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    There ya' go Einstein...

    Quote Originally Posted by Sir Terrence the Terrible
    You read one thing, I am reading another...
    Now only HAVIC has THE answer as to his intent...and I doubt he's even still around to provide us with it.

    And FWIW, I have built walls and made structural changes to accommodate for assorted sonic obstacles and have used electronic and other environmental means to smooth out speaker/room response...I know how difficult and time consuming doing these things CAN be, but as an enthusiast/musician/recordist, I was willing to do the things required to suit MY requirements...others may not be willing or able to invest the time or seek out the knowledge required, or have the tools and the abilities to use them, which is why I said at the outset:

    Quote Originally Posted by RL
    I don't think it's...quite as simple or clear cut a some would make it seem...
    Quote Originally Posted by TtT
    There is nothing in this question that states that he wants his speakers in the room. Why would he ask about putting a box around a speaker if that was not his intention? HE WANTS HIS SPEAKERS HIDDEN NOT EXPOSED!!
    And just how did you arrive at this? I see nothing one way or the other.

    Quote Originally Posted by HAVIC
    I think when you put a box around the speaker the bass increases.
    Since YOU seem to agree, kindly elaborate how putting a box within in a box will do ANYTHING to increase bass response? Kindly note it's "box" and not "baffle", not "wall"...simply "box"...quite frankly, without further clarification(which I attempted to obtain)it makes no sense at all. An acoustic suspension design or front firing bass-reflex already has had design considerations implemented in an effort to either isolate or use(as in the bass-reflex) the rear wave of the woofer...putting the enclosure "in a box" will change little or nothing, save for increasing the enclosure's apparent wall thickness....putting it into an alcove(a "bigger" box) WILL load the bass response, perhaps uncontrollably...flush mounting it within a wall(NOTE: this is no longer a "box" by anyone's definition) MAY have a marginal effect on the bass response(possibly an unwelcome one, particularly if the room's dimensions are altered to the point of encouraging standing waves) and it will most likely have an effect on the tweeters dispersion charcteristics, particularly if the designer's intent was to minimize cabinet diffraction and the anomolies caused by them...horn loaded or drivers with acoustic lenses will be less affected by such placement...as stated earlier, their patterns are pretty much "fixed" by design. I think the Genelec's tweeters can be rotated 90 degrees for horizontal positioning (the manf. rec is vertical), just for this reason. And, from what I understand, frequency response is only a part of any loudspeaker's "sonic signature", so electronic means(EQing, etc.) MAY not be the be-all and end-all in that department. But, that may be close enough for HT.

    Quote Originally Posted by HAVIC
    I think when you put a box around the speaker the bass increases.If that is true...
    ...and WHY would it be?...unless we are talking "alcove" (the "bigger" box)...and the resultant "loading" effects

    Quote Originally Posted by HAVIC
    would a false wall 2-3 feet deep have the same effect. would the false wall effect anything else"
    AHA!!! So here we go...first "box"...then "wall" Two different things! You CAN"T make a comparison of one thing...they don't seem to be as interchangeable as you think, eh?

    The same effect as what? Putting the speaker "in a box"? That's dependent on the size of the "box" for there to be any appreciable change. False wall? What configuration? Screen support? Infinite baffle? Quite simply, a "false wall" of any shape, design or label will effect EVERYTHING else...and will require after-the-fact tweaking, no simple cut-and-paste.

    Quote Originally Posted by TtT
    You really haven't addressed the poster inquiry at all. You are too busy superimposing your views over what he is asking.
    Superimposing MY views? Like what...THX-certified? Actually, I'm trying to figure out precisely WHAT he's asking and address that...quite unlike yourself who knows exactly what he's suggesting by posting:

    Quote Originally Posted by TtT
    If you are speaking of a baffle wall, that will increase bass tremedously
    Yeah, "IF" is real definitive...

    jimHJJ(...your turn Kreskin...)
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  19. #44
    M.P.S.E /AES/SMPTE member Sir Terrence the Terrible's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Resident Loser
    Now only HAVIC has THE answer as to his intent...and I doubt he's even still around to provide us with it.
    You never know, I would not assume anything. You have already been tripped up on your assumptions.

    And FWIW, I have built walls and made structural changes to accommodate for assorted sonic obstacles and have used electronic and other environmental means to smooth out speaker/room response...I know how difficult and time consuming doing these things CAN be, but as an enthusiast/musician/recordist, I was willing to do the things required to suit MY requirements...others may not be willing or able to invest the time or seek out the knowledge required, or have the tools and the abilities to use them, which is why I said at the outset:
    What the hell is a "assorted sonic obstacles"? You are beginning to sound like Lexmark3200. When you have the right tools and the ablility to understand the measurements, correcting room responses is not that difficult. I can tune a movie theater in fifteen to twenty minutes. You measure, and apply a correction curve. Now if you don't know what you are doing, and cannot effectively interpret your measurements, it will take you quite a long time. You cannot assume that the original poster will not go through whatever it takes to get it right especially given this answer;

    I'm still not sure if I will go this way and would ask a lot more questions in the future to determine if I need professional help or if I can do it on my own. My current setup with a RPTV does not warrant the need for the false wall, but do to the nature of my tv, component video only, I was considering a front projector in the future. This prompted the idea of a false wall, so I decided to inquirer.

    Thanks everyone for you input as I have realized it is a bigger project than just sticking them in the false wall and it will weigh heavily on my decision for the next tv/projector I get.


    So he understands that this was not easy, and he also knows the effect of mounting his speakers in a false wall. Somehow he did not interpret my answer as making it easy as you have. YOu are a assuming that he walked away half cocked, and is going to build this wall with no additional information than what we have posted here.






    And just how did you arrive at this? I see nothing one way or the other.
    When somebody mentions box and false walls, they do not mean sit the speakers "proud" in relation to the wall. Boxing speakers in a false wall has the effect of hiding them out of sight, and since he thinks that i feel that the towers will look out of place between a screen mounted on the wall. in other words out in the room in front of the wall that the screen would be mounted to. This leads me to believe that he doesn't want them to be seen.




    Since YOU seem to agree, kindly elaborate how putting a box within in a box will do ANYTHING to increase bass response Kindly note it's "box" and not "baffle", not "wall"...simply "box"...quite frankly, without further clarification(which I attempted to obtain)it makes no sense at all.
    First, so we get an understanding here. He doesn't mean just putting a speaker in a box. He means cutting out a hole in a false wall and sticking his speakers in that hole. Why would you even think he meant just put a speaker in a box when he mentions a false wall? He never said a free standing box, he is associating the box with the wall which implies mounting the speaker in a cutout box within the wall.

    Mounting the speaker in a box(or cutout in a solid wall) you put that speaker in a high pressure zone(close to the walls). This will excite all modes and nodes in the room. It has much the same effect of pushing a floor standing speaker right up against the front wall. It is called a boundary boost, and why the Genelec speakers have boundary compensation circuits in their design.





    An acoustic suspension design or front firing bass-reflex already has had design considerations implemented in an effort to either isolate or use(as in the bass-reflex) the rear wave of the woofer...putting the enclosure "in a box" will change little or nothing, save for increasing the enclosure's apparent wall thickness..
    I cannot see how this relates to what the poster said. He never mentions a freestanding box, he mentions a false wall and boxing(or cutting out a box in the wall and inserting the speakers)

    ..putting it into an alcove(a "bigger" box) WILL load the bass response, perhaps uncontrollably.
    Since NOBODY mentioned an alcove I do not know what this is brought up either.

    ..flush mounting it within a wall(NOTE: this is no longer a "box" by anyone's definition) MAY have a marginal effect on the bass response(possibly an unwelcome one, particularly if the room's dimensions are altered to the point of encouraging standing waves)
    If you took a monolith wall(solid) cut out a hole in the form of a speaker, that hole is a box. Boxes are empty cavaties that you fill. If the poster cut out a portion of his wall 20" deep that would flush mount his speaker in the wall, and inserted in a box.

    All rooms have resonaces or standing waves. If you put a speaker "proud" in respect to a wall as you mention, you are still going to have standing waves, plus you are going to have phasing problems in the bass frequencies as the rear output of the speaker collides with the front output. If I flush mount my speakers, there is no rear wave to interfere with the front wave, and standing waves amplitude is reduced. You are always going to have deminsional resonaces in small rooms because the direct output of the speaker will reflect off of the rear wall, and back at the speaker. But this is alot less complex than the combination of a rear wave, front wave, and deminsional resonace. .






    and it will most likely have an effect on the tweeters dispersion charcteristics, particularly if the designer's intent was to minimize cabinet diffraction and the anomolies caused by them...horn loaded or drivers with acoustic lenses will be less affected by such placement...as stated earlier, their patterns are pretty much "fixed" by design.
    Sorry, but baffle mounting speakers has absolutely no effect on tweeter dispersion unless tweeter disperse sound 360 degrees. They do not because the wavelengths are too small. Most tweeter don't even disperse their sound 180 degrees. Since the speakers front baffle is closer to the tweeter than the baffle wall itself, how can the tweeter output be effected by the baffle wall. It is more likely that the front baffle of the speaker would be more of a problem than the baffle wall. The higher the frequency, the shorter the wavelength, the more directional the ouput becomes.

    THX has measured many speakers in a baffle wall situation. Other than a bass and midbass boost, there is no other effect on the speakers performance. You learn these kinds of things when you attend their classes so you don't have to guess.



    I think the Genelec's tweeters can be rotated 90 degrees for horizontal positioning (the manf. rec is vertical), just for this reason. And, from what I understand, frequency response is only a part of any loudspeaker's "sonic signature", so electronic means(EQing, etc.) MAY not be the be-all and end-all in that department. But, that may be close enough for HT.
    As THX testing on many kinds of front ported or acoustical suspension speakers have shown, the only performance alteration of any speaker in a baffle wall situation has been a elevated bass and midbass responce. EQ can, and does take care of the problem. The use of bass management helps even more.



    .
    ..and WHY would it be?...unless we are talking "alcove" (the "bigger" box)...and the resultant "loading" effects
    Once again, he is not speaking of just putting the speakers in a free standing box. He is referring to putting a speaker in a box cutout in the shape of his speaker. I have already explained the effects of this.



    AHA!!! So here we go...first "box"...then "wall" Two different things! You CAN"T make a comparison of one thing...they don't seem to be as interchangeable as you think, eh?
    No, not two different things. He is speaking about(and keep this in context) doing a cutout in the shape of his speaker in a solid wall. That is a box

    The same effect as what? Putting the speaker "in a box"? That's dependent on the size of the "box" for there to be any appreciable change. False wall? What configuration? Screen support? Infinite baffle? Quite simply, a "false wall" of any shape, design or label will effect EVERYTHING else...and will require after-the-fact tweaking, no simple cut-and-paste.
    Jimbob, did you read what he said at all? Why are you having such a tough time putting this together? He asked does putting his 20" speaker in a 2-3ft deep monolith wall have the same bass boosting effect as boxing a speaker in a wall. Aside from the bass boost nothing else is effected.



    Superimposing MY views? Like what...THX-certified? Actually, I'm trying to figure out precisely WHAT he's asking and address that...quite unlike yourself who knows exactly what he's suggesting by posting:
    This response really surprises me. You act like Mr. knowitall and cannot figure out what this man is trying to say. From just what he has posted he has stated he wants to created a stand alone monolith wall that he can place his speakers in, and mount is screen to. He realizes that boxing speakers in walls will increase the bass, but he wants to know will he experience that same effect with a stand alone monolith wall, 2-3ft deep. Aside from the boost bass he wants to know if there is any other affect on speaker performance. You were so busy aurguing with me, and doing psycho-analysis on him, that you are unable to understand his request. Since you didn't know that speakers can be installed in soffits, maybe I shouldn't be surprised that you cannot figure this out.



    Yeah, "IF" is real definitive...

    jimHJJ(...your turn Kreskin...)
    He is just inquiring, so his whole post is one great big if.
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  20. #45
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    Oh, now I see...

    ...HAVICs "if' is OK...your "if" is OK...it's only MY "if" that is faulty...fancy that!

    Quote Originally Posted by Sir Terrence the Terrible
    You have already been tripped up on your assumptions.
    Assumptions? I made assumptions? I asked questions in an attempt to avoid assumptions...I laid out possible configurations(in print AND later on diagramatically) and explained my reservations re: each one...

    Quote Originally Posted by TtT
    What the hell is a "assorted sonic obstacles"?
    Don't like my choice of words for the sake of brevity? What do you think it means? Modes? Nodes? Standing waves? LEDE? Slapback? You're the jargonista...I mean, you're the "exspurt"...BTW, a living room isn't a movie theater...the operative word is "living" as in "living with" in respect to the WAF, commercial venues are what they are...and hardly ever will the twain meet.

    With respect to all the rest of your missive...context, context, context...You began taking exception to my initial response(post #3) in post #4...Regardless of your opinion, each and every point I brought up is valid and requires some consideration on HAVICs part...period.

    Never once did I say "couldn't" in fact my exact cautionary words (post#3) were:

    Quote Originally Posted by RL
    In either case, the last thing you want to do is go through the hassles of construction in the name of aesthetics and/or room decor, only to wind up needing further room treatments such as free-standing bass traps and the like.

    Unfortunately, those issues must sometimes take a back seat when dealing with quality audio reproduction... in the final analysis, you may simply be better off with the loudspeakers positioned "proud" in respect to that of the projection screen.
    Say it with me now, "reservations"...

    And, of course, since you can't seem to tolerate any viewpoint or opinion other than your own, the thread thereafter spirals out of control. At issue are the first four posts...everything else is: did, didn't...he said, she said...accompanied by your bits of anecdotal insignificance.

    With regard to you, again, never said "couldn't"...I said there are loudspeakers which simply won't work in such a situation(and provided examples), there are those that should be placed as per manf. guidelines(and provided examples) and there are loudspeakers that, by virtue of their design and features, will make the ordeal less problematic(and again, examples were provided)...all of which you seem to have some sort of problem with.

    I also said in post #8:

    Quote Originally Posted by RL
    ...you can put your enclosures or drivers in any configuration you chose, but they need to be either designed for the purpose or mechanically/electronically manipulated to compensate for their environment...
    Then of course we have this bit of paradox:

    Quote Originally Posted by TtT
    I cannot see how this relates to what the poster said. He never mentions a freestanding box, he mentions a false wall and boxing(or cutting out a box in the wall and inserting the speakers)....First, so we get an understanding here. He doesn't mean just putting a speaker in a box. He means cutting out a hole in a false wall and sticking his speakers in that hole. Why would you even think he meant just put a speaker in a box when he mentions a false wall? He never said a free standing box, he is associating the box with the wall which implies mounting the speaker in a cutout box within the wall.
    Yet in post #2:
    Quote Originally Posted by TtT
    ...I would not recommend boxing the speakers, that would create resonances that are undesireable....
    HAVIC "never mentions" something and yet you don't recommend it? (BTW he does to some degree, unfortunately the exact meaning is somewhat vague and questionable IMO...as are other parts of his post)...
    Quote Originally Posted by HAVIC
    I think when you put a box around the speaker the bass increases
    What definition of "boxing" are YOU addressing as "undesireable" in post #2? Are you seeing alcoves? Clairvoyant are we? Making assumptions perhaps? One of those OK "ifs"? Yep, you have the correct and definitive viewpoint, dontcha'? Careful now, you may be "box"ing yourself in...


    Quote Originally Posted by TtT
    Somehow he did not interpret my answer as making it easy as you have
    Your response (Post#2) to HAVICs inquiry in toto:
    Quote Originally Posted by TtT
    If you are speaking of a baffle wall, that will increase bass tremedously, and get rid of some modes and nodes in the room. THX actually recommends this for THX certified rooms. I would not recommend boxing the speakers, that would create resonances that are undesireable. If you build a wall with speaker cutouts for the left, center, and right speakers with acoustical foam surrounding the speakers, you will get pretty good sound.
    Gee, an "impressive" win-win situation and shucks, that last sentence sounds fairly simple and straightforward to me...couple it with some jargon and a seemingly innocent, off-the-cuff mention of some THX blather and golly...what's a poor, more-or-less noob poster supposed to believe? Just get out the ol' Sawzall and a bucket of Dutch Boy and we're off..."If you build it they will come..."

    But then, I and hermanv go and ruin it...tsk...tsk!

    Quote Originally Posted by RL
    I don't think it's...quite as simple or clear cut a some would make it seem...
    Quote Originally Posted by hermanv
    The question was not really can it be done. The question is can HAVIC do it? Does he have the tools and or expertise to fix it if it doesn't work out? Speaker enclosure design long ago deviated form a box big enough to hold it all, to real questions about dispersion and diffraction. The tools to accurately analyze and fix any problems are not trivial, some speakers will work and most will not. The bass radiation pattern changes from 360 degrees to 180 degrees, the baffle step frequency will move, voicing will change. Crossover modifications are not excluded from the possible requirements to make this work correctly.
    Jeepers, that sorta' sounds familiar...to which we later get this response:

    Quote Originally Posted by HAVIC
    Thanks everyone for you input as I have realized it is a bigger project than just sticking them in the false wall...
    jimHJJ(...tsk...tsk...)
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  21. #46
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  22. #47
    M.P.S.E /AES/SMPTE member Sir Terrence the Terrible's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Resident Loser
    ...HAVICs "if' is OK...your "if" is OK...it's only MY "if" that is faulty...fancy that!
    Your if's are not educated if's. Your if's are based on what you think, not what is science based.



    Assumptions? I made assumptions? I asked questions in an attempt to avoid assumptions...I laid out possible configurations(in print AND later on diagramatically) and explained my reservations re: each one...
    Assumption #1. The original poster was going to do all or any of this himself. He never stated that at all. As a matter of fact ne never stated he was going to do this at all. All he did was make a simple inquiry and you came with an agenda not supported by science at all.

    Assumption #2
    others may not be willing or able to invest the time or seek out the knowledge required, or have the tools and the abilities to use them, which is why I said at the outset:
    You are assuming that this poster is not going to be more thorough before actually building, or having this wall built. Based on his response, I don't think that is the case.




    Don't like my choice of words for the sake of brevity? What do you think it means? Modes? Nodes? Standing waves? LEDE? Slapback? You're the jargonista...I mean, you're the "exspurt"...BTW, a living room isn't a movie theater...the operative word is "living" as in "living with" in respect to the WAF, commercial venues are what they are...and hardly ever will the twain meet.
    Since you made that crap up you'll have to explain its meaning yourself. I personally think its a bunch of fluff. Did the poster mention anything about a living room? Nope! Did he mention anything about WAF? Nope! So why are you?



    With respect to all the rest of your missive...context, context, context...You began taking exception to my initial response(post #3) in post #4...Regardless of your opinion, each and every point I brought up is valid and requires some consideration on HAVICs part...period.
    Is that so, well let's analyze those points and see if any consideration should be taken, or these points are mentioned out of total ignorance.

    Point #1
    Probably not a good idea IMO. First, your loudspeakers have been designed to work best within specific placement parameters as dictated by the manufacturer...this includes(but is not limited to) distance from side walls, rear walls, other large objects and even themselves. Gross deviation from these will likely provide less-than-satisfactory results
    PSB's website has absolutely no recommendations of the distance from the walls their speaker must be placed. NONE!!! PSB speakers are measured in anechoic chambers where there are no reflections. When you place these speakers in room where there are many reflections( the average untreated listening room) all bets are off in terms of speaker performance. This goes for ANY speaker in ANY room.

    Point #2
    ...in fact while some nodes or resonances may be attenuated, other, even more obvious and troublesome in nature, may be created. Changing the room's shape or dimensions without careful attention to the final dimensions, may produce "even multiples" which can cause standing waves and other artifacts.
    I cannot see how a stand alone monolith wall will change the shape of the room. It may put an extra obsticle in the room to break certain modes and nodes, but not create more. Secondly a speaker mounted in a monolith wall would have no rearward reflections at all. That would eliminate some modes and nodes by isolating the rear sound waves from the front sound wave leaving the speaker. That is a huge plus, not a concern. Deminsional modes and nodes cannot be avoided and are a problem when you sit any speaker in any room.

    Point #3
    Tweeter dispersion characteristics may be affected and your ability to "toe-in/toe-out" for the best overall soundstage may be comprimised
    There is no scientific or measured data that support the notion that a baffle wall effects the tweeter frequency response, or dispersion pattern. NONE. Toe in is easily accomodated during the design phase of the project. If required(and it may or may not be) you incorporate the toe in into the design of the wall itself. Not an issue really.

    So all of the points you mention are easily dealt with, or not a problem at all. Your issues are raised out of ignorance of the practice of baffle or boxing speakers in walls, not out of knowledge


    Never once did I say "couldn't" in fact my exact cautionary words (post#3) were
    In either case, the last thing you want to do is go through the hassles of construction in the name of aesthetics and/or room decor, only to wind up needing further room treatments such as free-standing bass traps and the like.

    Unfortunately, those issues must sometimes take a back seat when dealing with quality audio reproduction... in the final analysis, you may simply be better off with the loudspeakers positioned "proud" in respect to that of the projection screen.


    In a baffle mounted design there is no need for free standing bass traps. And if you actually had any experience doing this, you would find that you need FAR less acoustical treatment than if you set your speaker "proud" in respect to that of the projection screen. It is a known fact that a speaker mounted in a baffle wall will measure far better than a speaker sitting in front of a wall. Speakers near walls create complex acoustical reflections, speakers mounted in baffles do not. All you get is the front output from the speakers themselves, a perfect half space environment. Once again you think that rearward reflections are helpful to a speakers response, when it fact they are not.



    Say it with me now, "reservations"...
    I prefer educated and experienced reservations rather than ignorant reservations.

    And, of course, since you can't seem to tolerate any viewpoint or opinion other than your own, the thread thereafter spirals out of control. At issue are the first four posts...everything else is: did, didn't...he said, she said...accompanied by your bits of anecdotal insignificance.
    LOL you should read this statement in the mirror jimbob

    With regard to you, again, never said "couldn't"...I said there are loudspeakers which simply won't work in such a situation(and provided examples), there are those that should be placed as per manf. guidelines(and provided examples) and there are loudspeakers that, by virtue of their design and features, will make the ordeal less problematic(and again, examples were provided)...all of which you seem to have some sort of problem with.
    Since this does not include the poster PSB's it is an irrelevant point. That is what I have a problem with. We are not referring various loudspeakers, we are dealing with the posters PSB's. Its a non brainer that some speakers cannot be baffle mounted, but that is not the case with the poster PSB's.

    I also said in post #8:
    This doesn't answer the basic question he asked though.

    would the false wall effect anything else?

    He already knew that a bass boost would occur, so some sort of correction would be needed. I also mentioned that bass boost, but aside from that, there are no other PROBLEMS(not considerations) associated with this setup.





    Then of course we have this bit of paradox:



    Yet in post #2:
    If there is a single thing that I regret posting, it is this. It only after I read it again that I realized he meant boxing them in the monolith wall. Since he never stated in his original post that he wanted a monolith wall, it wasn't totally clear to me that was his choice. But when he responded to your question with a yes, it became clear to me what he was trying to do. I am sorry that you still are not clear.

    HAVIC "never mentions" something and yet you don't recommend it? (BTW he does to some degree, unfortunately the exact meaning is somewhat vague and questionable IMO...as are other parts of his post)... What definition of "boxing" are YOU addressing as "undesireable" in post #2? Are you seeing alcoves? Clairvoyant are we? Making assumptions perhaps? One of those OK "ifs"? Yep, you have the correct and definitive viewpoint, dontcha'? Careful now, you may be "box"ing yourself in...
    Ah, perhaps I channeled in the same assumptive and clairovoyant power you did when you assumed he would build the wall himself. My bad, but yours much worse!




    Your response (Post#2) to HAVICs inquiry in toto:

    Gee, an "impressive" win-win situation and shucks, that last sentence sounds fairly simple and straightforward to me...couple it with some jargon and a seemingly innocent, off-the-cuff mention of some THX blather and golly...what's a poor, more-or-less noob poster supposed to believe? Just get out the ol' Sawzall and a bucket of Dutch Boy and we're off..."If you build it they will come..."
    Since his question was simple, it required a simple answer. His question did not ask "how difficult is this?" "what is required?, all I did was give him a basic guidline, not detailed instructions. He wasn't asking for detailed instructions, nor did he ask your opinion about the viability of building a monolith wall. He asked a very simple question I brought THX into the picture only because they have the knowledge, measurements, and thorough scientific base to support baffle mounting of speakers. Far more than you measly opinion and reservations.

    would the false wall effect anything else?

    If he wanted to know more than that, I would have gave him more than that.


    But then, I and hermanv go and ruin it...tsk...tsk!
    Oh, but do not forget his response to both of you

    Actually the questions was what are the effects on audio? I seems that with proper planning, it can be achieved. Whether I like how it sounds after is unfortunately a question that can only be answered after an endeavor like this is taken.
    So you got your assuming butts corrected. You both assumed that he was going to run out and build this wall based on the simple information I provided for a simple question. Your assumptions makes an a$$ out of you, not me!

    Funny after telling Hermanv that eq and the use of bass mangement would deal with the issues he raised he responded thusly;

    Ah ha! Found the disconnect.
    It is a shame he is smart enough to get it and move on. The old dog is relying on his old tricks and cannot seem to do the same. tsk tsk.

    Jeepers, that sorta' sounds familiar...to which we later get this response:
    Ah but finished that sentence little half cocked old dog

    Actually the questions was what are the effects on audio? I seems that with proper planning, it can be achieved. Whether I like how it sounds after is unfortunately a question that can only be answered after an endeavor like this is taken.

    Based on some of the comments by sir terrence about front ported speakers, which mine are, lead me to believe it can be achieved.

    I'm still not sure if I will go this way and would ask a lot more questions in the future to determine if I need professional help or if I can do it on my own. My current setup with a RPTV does not warrant the need for the false wall, but do to the nature of my tv, component video only, I was considering a front projector in the future. This prompted the idea of a false wall, so I decided to inquirer.

    Thanks everyone for you input as I have realized it is a bigger project than just sticking them in the false wall and it will weigh heavily on my decision for the next tv/projector I get.
    Nothing from HIS response suggests that my response to him was oversimplified. I just answered a simple question with a simple answer and a simple guidline. You on the other hand tried to poopoo something you have no education of, and no experience with. Stupid is what stupid does, and boy do you take the cake, pie, and receipe.




    jimHJJ(...tsk...tsk...)
    Back atcha old doggy
    Last edited by Sir Terrence the Terrible; 10-20-2005 at 05:00 PM.
    Sir Terrence

    Titan Reference 3D 1080p projector
    200" SI Black Diamond II screen
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    Datastat RS20I audio/video processor 12.4 audio setup
    9 Onkyo M-5099 power amp
    9 Onkyo M-510 power amp
    9 Onkyo M-508 power amp
    6 custom CAL amps for subs
    3 custom 3 way horn DSP hybrid monitors
    18 custom 3 way horn DSP hybrid surround/ceiling speakers
    2 custom 15" sealed FFEC servo subs
    4 custom 15" H-PAS FFEC servo subs
    THX Style Baffle wall

  23. #48
    Color me gone... Resident Loser's Avatar
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    Your inability...

    ...to deal with the abstract and go beyond the bleedin' obvious would be comical if it weren't so painful.

    Quote Originally Posted by Sir Terrence the Terrible
    Your if's are not educated if's. Your if's are based on what you think, not what is science based....you came with an agenda not supported by science at all...There is no scientific or measured data that support the notion that a baffle wall effects the tweeter frequency response, or dispersion pattern...If required(and it may or may not be) you incorporate the toe in into the design of the wall itself. Not an issue really.
    Sorry, I bunched up all of your "science" refs, but I thought I'd make it a bit easier for you to follow along...Based on my interpretation of HAVICs post and as exemplified by the later diagrams, where is the lack of of science and measureable concerns?

    If he was thinking alcoves, "boxing" or other euphemism for the layout in diagram(.jpeg #2), even YOU have agreed that there would be too many reflective surfaces and that it would be just cause for concern.

    In .jpeg#3, the monolith wall pictured would also be a "no go" due to the tunnel-like area behind it...

    If it is determined that toe-in is required for proper imaging, how does one accomplish THAT in a flush-mount/"baffle" arrangement? If you incorporate any skewing of the loudspeaker's polar axis, one of two things will occur...you will have to allow the cabinet's outside edge to protrude beyond the plane created by the wall, in which case the enitire project's purpose is defeated. If the tilt is done to obviate that possibility, and the inner edge is withdrawn behind the wall's plane, the tweeter's dispersion pattern will most certainly be compromised...so now, in the design stage, some angling of the wall will be required or other structural compromises will have to be devised. Getting less and less simple. Are we thinking some variant on an exponential horn built into the wall? Well that's gotta' have a measureable effect.

    And what about the wall itself? If your "baffle" changes the volume(as in cubic feet) or other salient room dimensions, so as to excite standing waves or create other anomolies, doesn't that give one pause? Standing bass-traps anyone?

    How are any of these concerns not "scientific" enough? Certainly seems to get a bit more complex than your initial response indicates.

    Quote Originally Posted by TtT
    Assumption #1. The original poster was going to do all or any of this himself. He never stated that at all. As a matter of fact ne never stated he was going to do this at all. All he did was make a simple inquiry...
    When exactly did I say HE was going to do anything himself...I used the phrase "the hassles of construction". Fairly all-encompassing I think...Are the limitations of your thought process THAT constricted?...Have you ever dealt with contractors? There's more to any construction job than simply the pitfalls of whackin' yer own thumb with a hammer!

    Quote Originally Posted by TtT
    Assumption #2...You are assuming that this poster is not going to be more thorough before actually building, or having this wall built. Based on his response, I don't think that is the case.
    This is a public forum...people other than those involved sometimes read the threads (although participation seems to be running pretty low these days)...I make no assumptions as to the intelligence or ability levels of ANY readers...Unless otherwise indicated(by prior discourse perhaps), I try to cover all bases on a fairly basic level, the old LCD(no, not liquid crystal display) principle. Consequently, when I see something that answers a potentially complex issue with an entirely simplistic response, I react.

    Quote Originally Posted by TtT
    Since you made that crap up you'll have to explain its meaning yourself. I personally think its a bunch of fluff.
    I have to explain nothing...I chose to use "sonic obstacles" as a catch-all for simplicity's sake...surely being "in the biz" you've heard some of those terms I used in answer to your inquiry...

    Quote Originally Posted by TtT
    Did the poster mention anything about a living room? Nope! Did he mention anything about WAF? Nope! So why are you?
    Did I say HE did? You mentioned analyzing a movie theater in minutes...my specific experience has involved living space and the commensurate WAF...The latter has more far-reaching ramifications and I think most would agree with that concept...does that answer your question? Since you do have that void in your perceptive abilities, perhaps not.

    Quote Originally Posted by TtT
    well let's analyze those points and see if any consideration should be taken, or these points are mentioned out of total ignorance...Point #1...PSB's website has absolutely no recommendations of the distance from the walls their speaker must be placed.
    If memory serves, YOU were the one who went down this road when you said in post #4:

    Quote Originally Posted by TtT
    I know of no consumer speaker manufacturer who states plainly how far from the walls to place their speakers, except Bose.
    I provided more than a few who most certainly do and while PSB has no specific distances, they provide very general placement guidelines and speaker/speaker/listener distance ratios...and as I recall I touched on them in post #6 and advised HAVIC to give them a re-read...However, HAVICs T65s ARE marketed as towers and they are designed for free-field placement and caveats are stated with regard for wall and corner proximity placement...AND they also produce in-wall and in-cabinet models that are equally evironment-specific. In fact, the in-cabinet models have user adjustable "boundary compensation" switches. To most, logic would dictate a very specific product usage...and do try to recall, there are others who do have systems with rearward-firing ports or other design considerations that preclude any other placement schemes. Things just aren't so simple.

    Quote Originally Posted by TtT
    Point #2...I cannot see how a stand alone monolith wall will change the shape of the room...
    Again, I'll refer you to .jpeg #3...see the monolith...see the existing rear perimeter wall...see the space bettween the two...that will change the sonic shape of the room...waybackwhen, before electronic reverberation, recording studios used duct work along with strategically placed speakers and mikes to simulate air and space...without some sort of mechanical dampening, this wall arrangement will have a similar, albeit less pronounced, effect...again not just a lick o'paint and toodles...

    Quote Originally Posted by TtT
    Point #3...Toe in is easily accomodated during the design phase of the project.
    We covered this earlier.

    Quote Originally Posted by TtT
    So all of the points you mention are easily dealt with, or not a problem at all. Your issues are raised out of ignorance of the practice of baffle or boxing speakers in walls, not out of knowledge...
    "Quoth the raven"...sez you...A wise man expects the unexpected, only a fool thinks he has all the answers.

    Quote Originally Posted by TtT
    If there is a single thing that I regret posting, it is this. It only after I read it again that I realized he meant boxing them in the monolith wall. Since he never stated in his original post that he wanted a monolith wall, it wasn't totally clear to me that was his choice. But when he responded to your question with a yes, it became clear to me what he was trying to do.
    Do I hear the sounds of a Mexican hat dance done to the strains of "La Cucharacha"...And BTW, nice to see you've learned a new word..."monolith"...you still aren't using it quite right, but it sounds like a real impressive humdinger of a word...like "baffle" and THX...

    Quote Originally Posted by TtT
    Ah perhaps I channeled in the same assumptive and clairovoyant power you did when you assumed he would build the wall himself. My bad, but yours much worse!
    Covered that one too.

    Quote Originally Posted by TtT
    You on the other hand tried to poopoo something you have no education of...
    Me no-no poo-poo...me show other side of coin and you no likey...

    jimHJJ(...ain't life a b!tch...)
    Hello, I'm a misanthrope...don't ask me why, just take a good look around.

    "Men would rather believe than know" -Sociobiology: The New Synthesis by Edward O. Wilson

    "The great masses of the people...will more easily fall victims to a great lie than to a small one" -Adolph Hitler

    "We are never deceived, we deceive ourselves" -Goethe

    If you repeat a lie often enough, some will believe it to be the truth...

  24. #49
    M.P.S.E /AES/SMPTE member Sir Terrence the Terrible's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Resident Loser
    ...to deal with the abstract and go beyond the bleedin' obvious would be comical if it weren't so painful.
    Ah, so you have to actually back up what you say with proof. Hard for ya huh old doggy. Can't make stuff up and get away with it. To bad.



    Sorry, I bunched up all of your "science" refs, but I thought I'd make it a bit easier for you to follow along...Based on my interpretation of HAVICs post and as exemplified by the later diagrams, where is the lack of of science and measureable concerns?
    The problems that you listed in your second post do not apply to the flush/baffle mounted design. You are putting the cart before the horse in so many ways its pitful. I don't know how you can interpret HAVIC's post to want his speakers IN FRONT of the walls when he states he wants them boxed in a wall.



    If he was thinking alcoves, "boxing" or other euphemism for the layout in diagram(.jpeg #2), even YOU have agreed that there would be too many reflective surfaces and that it would be just cause for concern.
    In none of your examples did you put the speakers flush/baffle mounted. I was only commenting on your actual designs, not a design with a flush/baffle mounted speaker. So don't try to apply my comments to anything but your designs.

    In .jpeg#3, the monolith wall pictured would also be a "no go" due to the tunnel-like area behind it...
    If you knew anything about the dispersion pattern of a baffle mounted speaker, you would see just how stupid this comment is. In a baffle/flush mounted design in a monolith wall, there would be no back wave of sound. So the tunnel like area behind the wall is irrelevant. If you use bass management, this concern becomes even more ignorant.

    If it is determined that toe-in is required for proper imaging, how does one accomplish THAT in a flush-mount/"baffle" arrangement?
    More cart before the horse thinking. The poster hasn't even chosen a screen size. In the absence of that information, how can one even think about coming to this point. Considering that said poster speakers have a excellent of axis response( 30 degrees off axis ±1.5dB 42-10,000 Hz) he might not even have to take this into consideration. More worries without information=waste of time.

    If you incorporate any skewing of the loudspeaker's polar axis, one of two things will occur...you will have to allow the cabinet's outside edge to protrude beyond the plane created by the wall, in which case the enitire project's purpose is defeated. If the tilt is done to obviate that possibility, and the inner edge is withdrawn behind the wall's plane, the tweeter's dispersion pattern will most certainly be compromised...so now, in the design stage, some angling of the wall will be required or other structural compromises will have to be devised. Getting less and less simple. Are we thinking some variant on an exponential horn built into the wall? Well that's gotta' have a measureable effect.
    For people like you who seperate recycleable goods for a living, curving a wall to accomodate toe in might be pretty difficult. But it is nothing for somebody who has a little construction experience, or one who hires a person with construction experience, this is nothing. Since the poster has NEVER said who was going to build this wall, this is another waste of time thought. More cart before the horse thinking.

    And what about the wall itself? If your "baffle" changes the volume(as in cubic feet) or other salient room dimensions, so as to excite standing waves or create other anomolies, doesn't that give one pause? Standing bass-traps anyone?
    You seem to have a profound ignorance of the difference between standing waves, and room resonances. First how would a stand alone baffle wall effect the internal space of the room. If there is a space behind it, then it would not stretch from wall to wall in the actual room. It would take up the center portion of the room leaving the sides open. That would not change the overall volume of the room, just put an obsticle in it. Secondly, there would be no standing waves to excite. A trip to school for ya old dog. Standing waves occur when a speakers omnipolar pattern(in the bass) of waves(front wave, rear reflections) spread out and interact with one another in the room. This leads to standing wave issues in small rooms. In a baffle/flush mounted setup there is no omnipolar pattern in the bass region. That would be supressed by the baffle wall, so there would be no standing waves to excite. Only speakers sitting out in a room suffers from standing waves issues, not speakers mounted in a baffle/flush design. This is some more of that conventional thinking trying to deal with custom design issues. Its apples and oranges.
    Room resonances occur whether the speakers are out in the room, or baffle/flush mounted. They occur because of the room deminsions. Not the same thing as a standing wave your smartness.

    How are any of these concerns not "scientific" enough? Certainly seems to get a bit more complex than your initial response indicates.
    They are not scientific because they don't apply to a baffle/flush mounted design. Its just that simple. My intial response was inline with the original question, your responses are WAY out of line of the original question, and Stevie Wonder can see that.



    When exactly did I say HE was going to do anything himself...I used the phrase "the hassles of construction". Fairly all-encompassing I think...Are the limitations of your thought process THAT constricted?...Have you ever dealt with contractors? There's more to any construction job than simply the pitfalls of whackin' yer own thumb with a hammer!
    For someone in construction designing a stand alone baffle wall, even one with a angle in it to accomodate toe in, is nothing. The guy I work with can do a cinemascope like curved wall, so a wall with a angle ain't a thang. This is no hassle of construction, this is nothing more than the limited thinking of a wanna be smart person trying to figure out something way beyond his scope.



    This is a public forum...people other than those involved sometimes read the threads (although participation seems to be running pretty low these days)...I make no assumptions as to the intelligence or ability levels of ANY readers...Unless otherwise indicated(by prior discourse perhaps), I try to cover all bases on a fairly basic level, the old LCD(no, not liquid crystal display) principle. Consequently, when I see something that answers a potentially complex issue with an entirely simplistic response, I react.
    Riiight total loser. You were so busy analyzing this guys thinking, that you didn't even answer the question as it was asked. would the false wall effect anything else?

    The answers you gave are well beyond the scope of this question since no other design parimeters have been discussed. You are attempting to read much further than the poster question, and that is why your comments seem so stupid and out of scope. The question was simplistic, and so was the answer. Every issue you raise is completely out of ignorance, not intelligence. The poster didn't need your help at all. He even had to remind you to stick with the question.


    I have to explain nothing...I chose to use "sonic obstacles" as a catch-all for simplicity's sake...surely being "in the biz" you've heard some of those terms I used in answer to your inquiry...
    Right, and I'll use standing waves to denote a room deminsion resonance. In the biz we do not try and demonstrate how we can use words to confuse the hell out of our clients. Slap echo, standing waves, room resonances are common audio language, not some fluff crap that you think up just to make things easier for you. The world doesn't revolve around you, or you lack of education and experience in custom installation, or the terms that go along with it.



    Did I say HE did? You mentioned analyzing a movie theater in minutes...my specific experience has involved living space and the commensurate WAF...The latter has more far-reaching ramifications and I think most would agree with that concept...does that answer your question? Since you do have that void in your perceptive abilities, perhaps not.
    He didn't say he had a wife. He didn't say he had children, all he asked waswould the false wall effect anything else?. It is obvious that you don't have any experience as it applies to the poster question, or your answer and questions would have been much more applicable to what the poster was asking. The only questions and problems you brought up are based on information that is not given, or not applicable to baffle/flush mounting at all.




    If memory serves, YOU were the one who went down this road when you said in post #4:
    However you did not address this in respect to PSB speakers which have absolutely no recommendation on placement of their speakers. You name other speaker manufacturers that have placement RECOMMENDATIONS, but nothing specific as you are trying to allude to. A recommendation is very different than a specific placement instruction.


    I provided more than a few who most certainly do and while PSB has no specific distances, they provide very general placement guidelines and speaker/speaker/listener distance ratios...and as I recall I touched on them in post #6 and advised HAVIC to give them a re-read...However, HAVICs T65s ARE marketed as towers and they are designed for free-field placement and caveats are stated with regard for wall and corner proximity placement..
    Your room is not a free field environment. A free field environment is an environment free of reflections like an anechoic chamber. PSB measures and voices their speakers in this kind of environment, not your room. If I mounted his speakers in a environment where only its front output is measured(a baffle/flush mount) it would measure substantially better than if I placed that speaker out in the room. I would gladly correct a 4-5db boost in the bass that you get from baffle mounting a speaker, to the 5-20db deviation you get in most listening rooms with the speakers mounted in front of the walls. Just because the only thing YOU know how to do is the traditional way of speaker positioning doesn't mean that its the only way to place the speakers. Remember JBL 4311, 4311B, and 4312? Well they were never designed for soffit mounting, but they are found in thousands of recording studios all over the world in that position. Its called adaptability. Some speakers can be adapted, some can't. The poster PSB can easily be adapted to this purpose as there is nothing in their design that is unusual.



    .AND they also produce in-wall and in-cabinet models that are equally evironment-specific. In fact, the in-cabinet models have user adjustable "boundary compensation" switches. To most, logic would dictate a very specific product usage...and do try to recall, there are others who do have systems with rearward-firing ports or other design considerations that preclude any other placement schemes. Things just aren't so simple.
    A parametric or 1/3 octave eq is much more flexible than boudary compensation cirucuit found in most speakers. The only account for placement IN FRONT of a wall, not in it. A parametric or 1/3 octave eq can provide exact correct for the measured problem of baffle mounting, a boudary compensation circuit cannot. It has preset filters. Once again you are harping on SPECIFIC use, and I have shown that some speakers(the JBL 4311 are a perfect example) can be adapted to baffle.flush mounting with no problem. The poster speakers do not have rearward ports, so this shouldn't even be part of the discussion. Once again you are adding things to the discussion that are not applicable to the posters setup.



    Again, I'll refer you to .jpeg #3...see the monolith...see the existing rear perimeter wall...see the space bettween the two...that will change the sonic shape of the room...waybackwhen, before electronic reverberation, recording studios used duct work along with strategically placed speakers and mikes to simulate air and space...without some sort of mechanical dampening, this wall arrangement will have a similar, albeit less pronounced, effect...again not just a lick o'paint and toodles...
    The speakers once again would have to have a backwave to be effected by the space. Since baffle/flush mounted speakers do not have one, this is not applicable to baffle/flush mounted designs. In a baffle/flush mounted design, what happens in front of the baffle is the only consideration that has to be taken. Your lack of understanding of baffle/flush mounting a speaker in betraying you at every turn. Did the poster mention any room deminsions? I think not!



    We covered this earlier.
    We covered all of this before, now can you shut up already???



    "Quoth the raven"...sez you...A wise man expects the unexpected, only a fool thinks he has all the answers.
    Not much is unexpected from the poster request, only a fool can't see that.



    Do I hear the sounds of a Mexican hat dance done to the strains of "La Cucharacha"...And BTW, nice to see you've learned a new word..."monolith"...you still aren't using it quite right, but it sounds like a real impressive humdinger of a word...like "baffle" and THX...
    Its pretty sad that you haven't learned squat about basic acoustics, and speaker/room interactions, or this whole debate might be worth something for you in the end.



    Covered that one too.
    So when do you shut up already???



    Me no-no poo-poo...me show other side of coin and you no likey...

    jimHJJ(...ain't life a b!tch...)
    Its a shame your other side of coin doesn't work with this specific kind of design. So wrong coin jimbob. You do not know what I like or dislike, keep with what you know and it should take you about 3 millisecond to figure that out.
    Sir Terrence

    Titan Reference 3D 1080p projector
    200" SI Black Diamond II screen
    Oppo BDP-103D
    Datastat RS20I audio/video processor 12.4 audio setup
    9 Onkyo M-5099 power amp
    9 Onkyo M-510 power amp
    9 Onkyo M-508 power amp
    6 custom CAL amps for subs
    3 custom 3 way horn DSP hybrid monitors
    18 custom 3 way horn DSP hybrid surround/ceiling speakers
    2 custom 15" sealed FFEC servo subs
    4 custom 15" H-PAS FFEC servo subs
    THX Style Baffle wall

  25. #50
    Suspended Smokey's Avatar
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    Boy, does it take 49 responses and twenty million quotes and unquotes to answer a simple question as "how does a false wall would effect the audio sound"?

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