False wall and audio sound

[Sir Terrence the Terrible]

The answer is far more detailed.

The reason a horn does what it does is it couples the energy of the source to that of the room much like a transformer. A small surface vibrating at 20 hz, for example, does not couple it's energy output very well to a room. By using a horn structure, the expanding energy with the compressible media (air) is allowed to slowly convert (as it were) to the impedance of the room.

A room corner, by it's nature, will do this for any transducer that is put there, for frequencies where the walls can be (seen) by the expanding energy. The K horns use this fact to allow the corner to act as part of that waveguide/transformer. So, both horns and direct radiators/ports/T lines/whatever...will see that enhancement when they are put into the corner...the K's just require it as part of their design.

A room will have resonances at specific multiples of the base frequency, in all 3 directions. Corner placement of any transducer will still excite those modes, regardless of the cabinet type.

Putting a speaker away from the walls does not prevent excitation of room modes, unless of course, placement is at a node. There is a complex relationship between where the transducer is within the space, the coupling efficiency to the space as a result of proximity (or lack thereof) to the boundaries..very complex.

For sound frequencies where the walls are part and parcel of the horn waveguide, there can still be coupling to room modes.

Your explanation regarding horns, room resonance, and such, was a curious mix of actual fact, and stuff that... while incorrect, can be useful for guidance in setting up systems..many times, what is taught is not correct, but has a more intuitive feel to it...giving people who don't have the math or physics skills the ability to do their job well, while not burdening them with the real information..and yes, the explanation I just gave is also a simplistic one, but arguably at the level that all here can understand.

I see the two of you arguing along these lines, and am getting very bored with it..

I miss my K horns..

Cheers, John

John,
I really appreciate your response. I don't work with full range horn loaded speakers, so my understanding of how they interact with room boundaries is very limited I must admit.

[jneutron]

John,
I really appreciate your response..

No problem.

I don't work with full range horn loaded speakers, so my understanding of how they interact with room boundaries is very limited I must admit.

I hadn't posted on this thread before, as I was not sure what exactly the origional poster was asking.

When you posted that stuff on horns and room resonances and standing waves, it became clear to me that you were not speaking with an understanding of compressible media wave energy transport and the interactions with boundary conditions... Rather, your thinking appeared to be more from what has been told you, or from some simple observations..at the first level, that may be good enough, but at some point, that simplistic view will fall apart.

It can be rather confusing when the high level theory is attempted, so many shortcuts are necessary if one actually wants to get something done..That is why I don't try to do any of that math stuff, it is so confusing..

Personally, i rather enjoyed the 10 dB bass increase I got when I put my little sub behind the tv in the corner..it made Jurrasic park much more believable..even though they didn't have any lasers.

Cheers, John

[Sir Terrence the Terrible]

If I came to a restaurant looking for steak, and the best that they could give me was chicken, I wouldn't go back to that restaurant.

In regard to simply popping any old thing into a wall, if you take a look at some of the links I provided along this long and bumpy road of a post, yes, an infinite baflle/baffle wall/Bafflette is a requirement for THX certification of commercial venues...however it's structure is somewhat complicated and even in it's more simplified form, requires the use of MDF in lieu of wallboard and studs. In such an application the plans MUST be THX approved and conform stringently to their parameters including use of approved speakers, which tend to look like industrial vacuums painted in lampblack...which, since they are in a wall, is no biggie. There also seems to be very specific room size/screen size/speaker placement guidelines to afford the best(as per THX requirements) performance.

First, nobody and no where in any post did anyone say just pop in any old speaker into the wall and walk away. That is a RL perspective only, not even the original poster believed it to be an easy task or he would not have said"I'm still not sure if I will go this way and would ask a lot more questions in the future to determine if I need professional help or if I can do it on my own

Secondly, all of these comments regarding THX Bafflettes apply ONLY to THX commercial theaters. It does not apply at all to THX hometheater ROOM certification. The standards and materials that are certifiied for use in THX hometheater ROOMS(not equipment) are quite a bit different. One could build a hometheater from the ground up using THX criteria, and THX would never have to see it. A baffle wall for home THX does not have to have anti-vibration properties to accomodate 4 15 woofers, a mid, lower mid, and high frequency horn in a enclosure the size of two refrigerators stack on top of each other. .A home THX certified room can have non certifiied equipment. THX has conviently broken their program up into different units. Rooms, equipment, and software.

When one works in custom installation you get many strange and unusual requests for design features. Some request are possible visually, but not acoustically. So rather than just discouraging the client by telling them their vision is not possible, you work WITH them to get as close to their vision, but make it acoustically sound.

HAVIC's vision is to build a false wall and hide his speakers in them. There are several ways to do this, all with pretty predictable results. Everyone now understands that a baffle wall that doesn't vibrate or sing along with the speakers is a very envolved but not impossible task. We also know that installing his speakers in that wall will boost the low and mid bass. The poster knew that before he asked the question. If the poster decides it will cost too much money, and require too much construction, he still doesn't have to abandon his vision as RL instructs him to do(a defeatist perspective IMO)

A shadow box in combination with Acoustiblok foam wall which is simular to speakercraft's acousticell, except it is a whole wall rather than a that just a mounting system for a inwall speaker is another approach, a approach that I have been using exclusively for about two years now. This setup doesn't have a hard front wall(its all acoustical foam) and therefore does not boost or alter the frequency response of the speaker at all. The front of the speaker see's your room, and the rear and sides see a nearly anechoric environment. This setup requires little or no equalization and can be custom ordered to absorb all frequencies that you desire within the shadow box. Full range speakers require a deeper wall and more foam, speakers with limited bass(as what you would get when you use bass management and send deep bass to the sub) require significantly less. You get no wall vibration, no early or late arriving reflections, and no excitation of the rooms natural boundaries. YOu can mount the speakers on the outside edge of the screen, or you can mount them behind the screen. They will be hidden in the wall and out of sight. The best thing about this is you can build the setup as temporary, and if you like it, then you can hard mount it to the floor. You can mount the speakers high on the wall, or directly on the floor, or any place in between. I have used many different kinds of speakers in both a stand alone wall, and a wall that was an extension of the rooms front wall.

The simplest, since you have yet to purchase a projector/screen, would be to purchase a perforated screen. If you really like your PSBs, you can position them where they will sound best and hang the screen between and forward of them...for a sort of "psuedo-wall" sense of continuity, just flank it with acoustically-transparent scrim and voila! HT that looks aesthetically pleasing...sorta' like a retro movie theatre...little muss, little fuss...and no design/construction to contend with or demolition should the whole idea not seem quite the ticket after-the-fact.

Anyone who has worked ten seconds with a preforated screen knows that whatever reflections are behind the screen, without any kind of acoustical control, ends up in front of the screen out of time, and with a spread which creates diffusion on the other side. You will have reflection coming from the sides of the screen, under the screen, and right through it, all out of time with the direct output of the speaker. This will be great for the speakers frequency response at the ears. This may be the easiest to build, but creates more acoustical problems than just flush mounting his speakers. Not good advice PERIOD!.

[Sir Terrence the Terrible]

No problem.


I hadn't posted on this thread before, as I was not sure what exactly the origional poster was asking.

When you posted that stuff on horns and room resonances and standing waves, it became clear to me that you were not speaking with an understanding of compressible media wave energy transport and the interactions with boundary conditions... Rather, your thinking appeared to be more from what has been told you, or from some simple observations..at the first level, that may be good enough, but at some point, that simplistic view will fall apart.

It can be rather confusing when the high level theory is attempted, so many shortcuts are necessary if one actually wants to get something done..That is why I don't try to do any of that math stuff, it is so confusing..

Personally, i rather enjoyed the 10 dB bass increase I got when I put my little sub behind the tv in the corner..it made Jurrasic park much more believable..even though they didn't have any lasers.

Cheers, John

According to Floyd Toole and Tom Nousaine(spl) subwoofers belong in corners, but main speakers do not. Unless it was a mighty Klipschorn. I miss mine too!

[GMichael]

Isn't there an acoustically invisible material he could use to make a wall? The speakers could just hide behind it? Is this off the wall? (no pun intended)

[Resident Loser]

First, nobody and no where in any post did anyone say just pop in any old speaker into the wall and walk away.

Given your complete, unexpurgated and rather cursory response to HAVICs inquiry:

If you are speaking of a baffle wall, that will increase bass tremedously, and get rid of some modes and nodes in the room. THX actually recommends this for THX certified rooms. I would not recommend boxing the speakers, that would create resonances that are undesireable. If you build a wall with speaker cutouts for the left, center, and right speakers with acoustical foam surrounding the speakers, you will get pretty good sound.

Simply do this, do that and "...you will get pretty good sound..."A veritable panacea; a cure-all and then some! Where are the caveats for design considerations, speaker suitability or the need for electronic and/or mechanical tweeking? Sorry, if I missed something...oh, no...actually I didn't.

Secondly, all of these comments regarding THX Bafflettes apply ONLY to THX commercial theaters.

Gee, where did I hear that before? Oh, yeah right here in post #73:

...an infinite baflle/baffle wall/Bafflette is a requirement for THX certification of commercial venues...

I thought I made that abundantly clear, apparently you seem most comfortable pointing out the bleedin' obvious...However, it isn't a REQUIREMENT fot HT...now is it?

If the poster decides it will cost too much money, and require too much construction, he still doesn't have to abandon his vision as RL instructs him to do(a defeatist perspective IMO)

And here's whwere the remedial reading would play a part...the words used were:

Unfortunately, those issues must sometimes take a back seat when dealing with quality audio reproduction... in the final analysis, you may simply be better off with the loudspeakers positioned "proud" in respect to that of the projection screen.

And in the "...feels like deja-vu all over again..." dept, from post #9(...number 9...number 9...number 9...):

After posting my caveats, I said: In either case, the last thing you want to do is go through the hassles of construction in the name of aesthetics and/or room decor, only to wind up needing further room treatments such as free-standing bass traps and the like.

It's a pity that you see an alternate realist POV as defeatist...

As to the reast of your blather...it seems to be much more complex than your initial response would indicate...(see second quote above)

Then, of course, back to the bleedin' obvious:

Anyone who has worked ten seconds with a preforated screen knows that whatever reflections are behind the screen, without any kind of acoustical control, ends up in front of the screen out of time, and with a spread which creates diffusion on the other side. You will have reflection coming from the sides of the screen, under the screen, and right through it, all out of time with the direct output of the speaker. This will be great for the speakers frequency response at the ears. This may be the easiest to build, but creates more acoustical problems than just flush mounting his speakers. Not good advice PERIOD!.

As Dr. Watson oftimes said "No sh!t, Sherlock!"...HAVIC's got what he's got...my suggestion for screen and scrim "creates" nothing that isn't already there, which is why I said:

If you really like your PSBs, you can position them where they will sound best and hang the screen between and forward of them...for a sort of "psuedo-wall" sense of continuity, just flank it with acoustically-transparent scrim and voila! HT that looks aesthetically pleasing...sorta' like a retro movie theatre...little muss, little fuss...and no design/construction to contend with or demolition should the whole idea not seem quite the ticket after-the-fact.

What part of THAT didn't you quite comprehend...you HAVE TO read and understand ALL the words, not just the one's that strike your fancy...

In pea soup, dense is good...in people not so much...

jimHJJ(...you should come with crackers...)

[Sir Terrence the Terrible]

Give it up loser, this post is cooked, your advice sucked, and this issue is over. You don't put a preforated screen out in space without acoustical control behind the screen, and taking into consideration the moire effect, and image losses. Just any old preforated screen just don't cut it.

[Resident Loser]

You don't put a preforated screen out in space without acoustical control behind the screen

Anyone want to try to make sense out of THAT one?

Given the fact that light and sound, which are both waves, can exhibit similar behavioral patterns, two superimposed patterns can can create a third, unwanted element at the point of intersection. With light, these can be seen as light or dark areas forming larger unwanted patterns and resolution abnormalities; in sound, intermodulation distortions and the like. Any interlacing of two repetitive patterns(or waves) can cause the phenomenon. Even in ostensibly single, stand alone units, e.g. poorly designed CRTs, can exhibit the problem if the pixel/raster ratio are not properly considered and adjusted for. Careful choice of both projector AND screen vis a' vis the propensity to moire' can be minimized by avoidance of similar spatial repetition ratio between the resolution of the projector and of the perforation density of the screen material...some screen maufacturers avoid the issue entirely by using a woven material, whose natural warp and woof allow for an excellent degree of reflectivity, while providing acoustical transparency and avoiding the pitfalls of machine-made perforations.

jimHJJ(...just thought I'd clear up any misunderstanding...)

[Sir Terrence the Terrible]

Anyone want to try to make sense out of THAT one?

Given the fact that light and sound, which are both waves, can exhibit similar behavioral patterns, two superimposed patterns can can create a third, unwanted element at the point of intersection. With light, these can be seen as light or dark areas forming larger unwanted patterns and resolution abnormalities; in sound, intermodulation distortions and the like. Any interlacing of two repetitive patterns(or waves) can cause the phenomenon. Even in ostensibly single, stand alone units, e.g. poorly designed CRTs, can exhibit the problem if the pixel/raster ratio are not properly considered and adjusted for. Careful choice of both projector AND screen vis a' vis the propensity to moire' can be minimized by avoidance of similar spatial repetition ratio between the resolution of the projector and of the perforation density of the screen material...some screen maufacturers avoid the issue entirely by using a woven material, whose natural warp and woof allow for an excellent degree of reflectivity, while providing acoustical transparency and avoiding the pitfalls of machine-made perforations.

jimHJJ(...just thought I'd clear up any misunderstanding...)

Nice quote from a website. I am sure this didn't just pop outta yer head. You haven't even addressed the sound issues, but I am sure you'll quote another website for that. Genius, pure genius.

[Resident Loser]

Isn't there an acoustically invisible material he could use to make a wall? The speakers could just hide behind it? Is this off the wall? (no pun intended)

As mentioned earlier, it's referred to as 'scrim' in the theatrical AND upholstery trade...A very fine mesh of a fabric(sort of gauze-y, but not quite), usually black, which, under the proper lighting conditions, hides all that is behind it...You may find some fixed to the underside of your chairs and sofas where it is used as a dust-block...

jimHJJ(...there are many solutions, some simpler than others...)

[Resident Loser]

...any first-year art student is acquainted with moire' patterns, ain't nothin' new or particularly specific to HT...actually nowadays has more to do with digital reproduction of half-tones...in fact anyone who has looked through fenceposts, played with window screens or has worn polarized glasses is familiar with the concept...the mechanics and geometry are what they are...the words are mine, as anyone who reads my postings with regularity can plainly see...that is, anyone with intelligence.

As I've previously stated, I've forgotten more, about more things, than the likes of you will ever know...

jimHJJ(...you are beyond your ken...and it's gonna' be sooo cool...)

[jneutron]

Nice quote from a website. I am sure this didn't just pop outta yer head. You haven't even addressed the sound issues, but I am sure you'll quote another website for that. Genius, pure genius.

From what I have seen, when RL is qoting a website, he typically states that fact, or posts a link to the supporting verbage.

To say "I am sure this didn't just pop...." means you do not know for a fact one way or the other if this is direct or quote.

Why is it you are acting in this fashion? While I admit I have not been here much, I do not understand why it is a moderator is allowed to attack a poster in the manner you have shown over this entire thread.

Is there some history here that I am unaware of? Is this like that Star Trek episode with Loci??

This was actually one of the primary reasons I walked away from here..it is sad to see it has not changed.

Cheers, John

[HAVIC]

I actually stopped reading as a lot of this talk has been above my head. I do know if this a route I go I will most likely need to hire a pro. I may decide to not use the false wall and see how everything looks and if it bothers me I'll make the decision based on by a few pro audio shops in my area and analyzing what they told me with you guys.


However I did notice several people did not understand exactly what I was looking to do well here it is...

In the picture the outerbox is the original room (nothing is to actual size), this is from a top view.

In the picture the following stands for the letters.

A = my tower speakers
B= The False wall ( from floor to ceiling)
C= The Front Projector
D= The Screen mounted on the false wall

[E-Stat]

I'm thinking about how a false wall would effect the audio sound?
Thanks
Greg

Guys, do we have any more comments to add to Greg's question?

rw

[GMichael]

Guys, do we have any more comments to add to Greg's question?

rw

I think it's a great idea. If the false wall is made of that thin mesh-like material that sounds goes right through, won't this work? Are there problems with this?

[gonefishin]

I actually stopped reading as a lot of this talk has been above my head. I do know if this a route I go I will most likely need to hire a pro. I may decide to not use the false wall and see how everything looks and if it bothers me I'll make the decision based on by a few pro audio shops in my area and analyzing what they told me with you guys.


However I did notice several people did not understand exactly what I was looking to do well here it is...

In the picture the outerbox is the original room (nothing is to actual size), this is from a top view.

In the picture the following stands for the letters.

A = my tower speakers
B= The False wall ( from floor to ceiling)
C= The Front Projector
D= The Screen mounted on the false wall

You've already got the tower speakers (and the rest of the audio system, I presume)...I'd look into getting the scrim cloth type wall to put your speakers and audio equipment behind. Like GMichael had advised.

With the right room lighting...you can choose to either keep the "theater wall" black as can be (which will be a nice plus for the projector screen! Spend the extra money on a quality screen here). But...with the right lighting...you could choose to keep everything hidden...or you can choose to shine a light on the audio rack...or speakers. You know...the way Disney (and other amusement parks) "show you" where the speakers are mounted. They usually go thru this presentation before the featured show begins.

This shouldn't mess with any imaging problems (or placement problems) with your existing tower speakers. Plus...you won't have to (nor do you need to) build a false wall in your home.

good luck

dan

[GMichael]

You've already got the tower speakers (and the rest of the audio system, I presume)...I'd look into getting the scrim cloth type wall to put your speakers and audio equipment behind. Like GMichael had advised.

With the right room lighting...you can choose to either keep the "theater wall" black as can be (which will be a nice plus for the projector screen! Spend the extra money on a quality screen here). But...with the right lighting...you could choose to keep everything hidden...or you can choose to shine a light on the audio rack...or speakers. You know...the way Disney (and other amusement parks) "show you" where the speakers are mounted. They usually go thru this presentation before the featured show begins.

This shouldn't mess with any imaging problems (or placement problems) with your existing tower speakers. Plus...you won't have to (nor do you need to) build a false wall in your home.

good luck

dan

I like your ideas. You got my gears turning now.

[Resident Loser]

Guys, do we have any more comments to add to Greg's question?

rw

...are we to surmise that the seemingly gentle question you have posed is simply preparation for the thread to be locked?

Other than the fact that HAVICs question had been addressed within the first few posts, do you feel the subsequent issues that have been raised are somehow irrelevant? That they will benefit no one else but the initial poster? I don't think that to be the case. Has anyone learned anything? Have a few been prompted to research the subject matter? Hopefully so.

Even though I have my suspicions as to why, personally I'm quite saddened by the lack of general participation in the thread and/or any meaningful discussion of those issues even on the most elemental level...like I said, it ain't rocket science, no magic, no voodoo...just some basic familiarity with a few facets of the subject matter and the application of a little common sense...

jimHJJ(...then again, that's just me...)

[E-Stat]

...are we to surmise that the seemingly gentle question you have posed is simply preparation for the thread to be locked?

I've yet to, but there's always a first time.

Other than the fact that HAVICs question had been addressed within the first few posts, do you feel the subsequent issues that have been raised are somehow irrelevant?

No, and I sometimes contribute to threads with tangential comments. This one, however, is beginning to draw smoke from the empennage. I just kicked the rudder to stop the spin.

Perhaps you might like to open a new thread regarding perforated screens.

rw

[GMichael]

...are we to surmise that the seemingly gentle question you have posed is simply preparation for the thread to be locked?

Other than the fact that HAVICs question had been addressed within the first few posts, do you feel the subsequent issues that have been raised are somehow irrelevant? That they will benefit no one else but the initial poster? I don't think that to be the case. Has anyone learned anything? Have a few been prompted to research the subject matter? Hopefully so.

Even though I have my suspicions as to why, personally I'm quite saddened by the lack of general participation in the thread and/or any meaningful discussion of those issues even on the most elemental level...like I said, it ain't rocket science, no magic, no voodoo...just some basic familiarity with a few facets of the subject matter and the application of a little common sense...

jimHJJ(...then again, that's just me...)

I've tried to look into it. But mostly there was a lot of pure anger in this thread. I wasn't sure who was right in what way. It was really very hard for me to come to a conclusion.

Can you fill us in on the things we would need to know? Are there problems with his idea?
Please talk slow, so even I can follow.

[Resident Loser]

I've yet to, but there's always a first time.


No, and I sometimes contribute to threads with tangential comments. This one, however, is beginning to draw smoke from the empennage. I just kicked the rudder to stop the spin.

Perhaps you might like to open a new thread regarding perforated screens.

rw

...as you make note of who exactly brought the matches...I thought they were contraband on airplanes these days...

BTW, I could care less about screens perforated or otherwise...I'm not the one who uttered the magical mystery word: moire'...

jimHJJ(...P.S. it's only tee-vee...)

[Resident Loser]

...there was a lot of pure anger in this thread...

...my suggestion would be to ignore the ageist and otherwise inflammatory comments and look to the info provided...

Can you fill us in on the things we would need to know? Are there problems with his idea?
Please talk slow, so even I can follow.

I stand by what I have already posted re:alteration of room size and equipment choices...links have been provided for most of what anyone REALLY needs to know...there are speakers more suited to certain situations, otherwise why would the manufacturers build them? It's examples such as that, where common sense wins hands-down over any "specialized" knowledge...Think this through with me, doesn't it simply make more sense to use "something" designed for a specific application...at least you have some sort of "base" to work from rather than trying to overcome inherent design features/flaws? Square peg, round hole/silk purse, sow's ear...that sort of thing.

If you have any specific questions, I'll be happy to attempt address them even though I'm only a part-time musician/semi-serious recordist/audio enthusiast and purport to be no "exspurt" in anything in particular and simply quite inquisitive about nearly everything.

You can Google nearly everything and I strongly encourage this practice, just be forewarned to investgate a cross-section of sites. There will be a certain percentage of the content that will be wrong or misleading...there will also be some inherent facts that will usually show up in all or many of them...odds are this category will contain more of the truth. In fact you can do "false wall" and this thread(along with another at another site) will pop-up within the first few choices. Curious that there is very little re: the subject as it relates to audio...I'd guess there isn't a big call for such among the average HT buff...

jimHJJ(...I wonder why...)

[GMichael]

...my suggestion would be to ignore the ageist and otherwise inflammatory comments and look to the info provided...



I stand by what I have already posted re:alteration of room size and equipment choices...links have been provided for most of what anyone REALLY needs to know...there are speakers more suited to certain situations, otherwise why would the manufacturers build them? It's examples such as that, where common sense wins hands-down over any "specialized" knowledge...Think this through with me, doesn't it simply make more sense to use "something" designed for a specific application...at least you have some sort of "base" to work from rather than trying to overcome inherent design features/flaws? Square peg, round hole/silk purse, sow's ear...that sort of thing.

If you have any specific questions, I'll be happy to attempt address them even though I'm only a part-time musician/semi-serious recordist/audio enthusiast and purport to be no "exspurt" in anything in particular and simply quite inquisitive about nearly everything.

You can Google nearly everything and I strongly encourage this practice, just be forewarned to investgate a cross-section of sites. There will be a certain percentage of the content that will be wrong or misleading...there will also be some inherent facts that will usually show up in all or many of them...odds are this category will contain more of the truth. In fact you can do "false wall" and this thread(along with another at another site) will pop-up within the first few choices. Curious that there is very little re: the subject as it relates to audio...I'd guess there isn't a big call for such among the average HT buff...

jimHJJ(...I wonder why...)

Google is a constant companion in my line of work. You can find almost anything. I will, and have checked there also.

Will the mesh false wall change the sound much? Can it be adjusted for? Are different speakers & amps better than others for this?

[Resident Loser]

Google is a constant companion in my line of work. You can find almost anything. I will, and have checked there also.

Will the mesh false wall change the sound much? Can it be adjusted for? Are different speakers & amps better than others for this?

...the finer gauge should have little or no real impact on the sound produced...heavier fabrics certainly will affect the treble, just how much will depend on the circumstances...maybe a little tweek on the tone control or EQ(if so equipped) might be the answer. Have someone talk through a piece of cheesecloth, then through a flannel shirt. That should give you some idea of the effect.

I'd opt for speakers I like in their naked state...again, that "baseline" or jumping-off point should be as neutral as possible IMO...some units do have built-in controls that will be useful for placement/proximity issues. Same with amps...do you really want speakers or an amp with a "hot" top end? How "hot" should it be? Should it be "hot" at all? I realize it offends some of the more "purist"/golden-eared among us, but that's what tone controls(and EQs) are for. Unless of course a big part of your involvement with the hobby is the constant search for the "grail" in any or all of it's manifestations.

Then of course, there are multi-channel processors...which are fairly pricey...at the outset, simply listening for and identifying faults would be my first order of business...always apply the K.I.S.S. principle...

jimHJJ(...Keep It Super Simple or for some folks Keep It Simple Stupid...)

[GMichael]

OK, I know that I am not supposed to assume, but if the speakers are already behind the wall before I run my YPAO, shouldn't it take any high end loss into it's function? So as long as it's not a huge loss of high end then it should come out more or less the same?

Thanks for the help.